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Old 25th February 2021, 05:40 PM   #41
theprestige
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I mean, we should probably say that China (and every other current nation state) has a post-modern economy. I dunno what a modern economy would be, though. The 20th-century attempts at command economies?

I guess feudalism would be an example of a pre-modern economy: Everything based on land use, with local overseers making sure their patch produces, and that a piece of that action gets paid up the line to the king. I think modern organized crime basically follows the same feudal principles.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:58 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I still don't know what Tom thinks defines a modern economy.
Neither do I. Currently Tom Palven is so confused he is comparing communist China's command economy to the USA's Laissez-faire with legislative guidance economy because he simply sees high production.

In communist Russia's old command economy, bread production was legislated and so much bread was produced it was fed to cattle. This was inefficient, however, from Tom's logic, Russia must have had a modern economy as it had high bread production.
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Old 25th February 2021, 08:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
So, basically, because you visited a big city and saw tall buildings and ate fast food, you determined that the whole country - government, culture, economy, everything - must be consistent with the warm, fuzzy feeling you got from that one small sample.
Not sure how you deduced that.

Basically I've been to many large cities and small villages in Mainland China and trips down the Yang Tse River over the years with three different wives, and also visited Hong Kong before and after it was a British protectorate; and have also visited all the continents including Antarctica, visited family and friends in Germany, Belgium, England, and France, driving around all those countries and also Canada, Italy, Spain, and Ireland: and have been on organized tours, with the defunct ABC travel and other travel agencies, mainly Gate 1 Travel trips to Mexico, Thailand, Russia before and after Gorbachev, Turkey, Morocco, South America including Galapagos Island, Montenegro, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, South Africa and Swaziland during apartheid, Australia and New Zealand, and lots more countries, and the 48 contiguous US states.

I'm mentioning this to indicate that I might have a pretty good idea what wealthy nations and areas look like compared to less wealthy areas.

Edited to add how could I forget The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark,

And a wonderful trip to Scotland.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 25th February 2021 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:03 PM   #44
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Not sure how you deduced that..
Easy. You haven't got a clue about basic economic ratios.

What is the per capita GDP for China's 1,398,000.000 citizens? It is USD $10,261

What is the per capita GDP for the USA's 328,000,000 citizens? It is USD $63,051
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:07 PM   #45
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I might have a pretty good idea what wealthy nations and areas look like compared to less wealthy areas.
Hilarious. How many tourist spots are slums Tom?

Chinese slum
Attached Images
File Type: jpg China slums.jpg (63.3 KB, 6 views)
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Old 25th February 2021, 10:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Does it (China) look like a Third World country?.
"China has approved the removal of the two-term limit on the presidency, effectively allowing Xi Jinping to remain in power for life."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-43361276

Golly Gee Tom. Now Xi Jinping is Fuhrer for life and they have 2 million Uyghur slave workers in concentration camps........is that your understanding of a modern democratic economy?

Have you ever heard of Nazi Germany?
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:01 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Neither do I. Currently Tom Palven is so confused he is comparing communist China's command economy to the USA's Laissez-faire with legislative guidance economy because he simply sees high production.

In communist Russia's old command economy, bread production was legislated and so much bread was produced it was fed to cattle. This was inefficient, however, from Tom's logic, Russia must have had a modern economy as it had high bread production.
The idea that China is a command economy sounds pretty funny to those of us running businesses here.
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:42 AM   #48
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So it's the "I know all about foreign affairs because I can see Russia from my house" train of thought?
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Old 26th February 2021, 05:15 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
So it's the "I know all about foreign affairs because I can see Russia from my house" train of thought?
Not really.

My understanding of a command economy is one in which the government sets the prices for goods and services, and has a central planning commission that determines how much of different things are produced, rather than letting the market sort those things out.

No one tells me what price to charge.

No one tells my friend how many pairs of jeans to produce.

When another friend of mine is opening up department stores around China, he certainly has to deal with government officials, but I'm pretty sure that getting permits for new building projects is a part of doing business everywhere.

When my girlfriend designs a new t-shirt for her clothing brand, she doesn't have to run it by any government committee who tells her how many to make. She figures out what's selling well, has ideas about new designs, starts with a smallish order from the factory, and makes changes to how she does things based on how the market responds.

All this seems to be pretty similar to the way things work in market economies.

So, to whatever extent China may be a command economy, it's not at the level that my friends and I are being exposed to. I'm sure that there is a lot of government interference is some industries. But the majority of economic decisions that people are making aren't being made by bureaucrats.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:00 PM   #50
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The idea that China is a command economy sounds pretty funny to those of us running businesses here.
I'm sure it is. How do you vote for another party if say you don't like Uyghur slave labour competing against your business?

What was that? You can't vote for an alternative party?
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Old 28th February 2021, 01:46 AM   #51
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Boredom Warning: This post contains personal recollections on the prosperity and cleanliness of Mexico.

I'm a bit of a Sinophile, in love with Asian landscaping, and appreciative of the fact that many young Chinese speak perfect English, like many young Swedes and others, and have a laid-back attitude with a nice sense of humor; and I am amazed at how far China has come in the last couple of decades.

That said, I was perhaps even more astounded by our two trips to Mexico last year,

My parents, my sister, and I visited Tijuana in 1959 when my uncle, who lived in LA drove us down there for a day. I was 14 and my sister 12, and what I most remember was a boy street vendor about our age putting together the first ever tacos for us which I still remember as the very best.

But, although I visited Cancun on a cruise, I never had a strong desire to visit the real Mexico until Marge and I decided to go on the Gate 1 Travel Copper Canyon tour last year.
https://www.gate1travel.com/latin-am...ntral-america/
We loved that tour, which included small cities and villages, and then did the Colonial Mexico tour, which included larger cities

What surprised the heck out of me was the cleanliness of Mexican cities and the Mexican countryside. The parks in Mexico City were not only beautiful and user-friendly, with benches all over, but pristine, and we saw the same thing in other Mexican cities. No litter on the ground anywhere, hardly even a cigarette butt

This contrasts greatly with the way it is here in Florida. Prisoners in bright uniforms patrol our major roads filling up large trash bags with fast food wrappers and such, which are then picked up by trucks. But no sooner are they picked up than new liter starts to accumulate.

I don't know how clean-looking Tijuana or other Mexican border towns are today, and I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who can tell me.

In fact, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone, anywhere- from Austin, Bruges, Sydney, Rotterdam, Paris, London, Wuhan- anywhere at all, describing what kind of litter they see or don't see on their travel to work or elsewhere., and I'd also be interesting in hearing comments on why you think that some people seem to take pride in keeping their communities clean, and others don't, and how this may relate to prosperity or not.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 28th February 2021 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 28th February 2021, 02:24 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Not sure how you deduced that.

Basically I've been to many large cities and small villages in Mainland China and trips down the Yang Tse River over the years with three different wives, and also visited Hong Kong before and after it was a British protectorate...

You must be much older than I thought.
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Old 28th February 2021, 05:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
You must be much older than I thought.
Seventy-five. Just a Spring chicken.
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Old 28th February 2021, 08:36 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Seventy-five. Just a Spring chicken.

Then you missed visiting HK before it was a British possession by a century or so.
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Old 28th February 2021, 04:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
... (I) also visited Hong Kong before and after it was a British protectorate.
The Qing dynasty ceded Hong Kong to the British Empire in 1842 through the treaty of Nanjing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...%20from%201898.

Yep. Tom Palven is 179 years old.
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Old 28th February 2021, 04:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
You must be much older than I thought.
Yes, you are correct.

I misspoke.

We did not (visit) "Hong Kong before and after it was a British Protectorate," we visited during and after it was a British Protectorate.

Amusing souvenirs available after the return were empty beer cans with labels proclaiming that the cans were sealed before the return and contained 100% Pure British Colonial Air, and went on to describe its amazing qualities.

I bought a couple, but looked and couldn't find any around the house a while back. Then I tried ebay, but still no joy.

Thank you for your correction.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 28th February 2021 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:00 AM   #57
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It’s never been a British protectorate, it was a Crown colony, then a dependent territory.
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:38 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I've visited China several times, from the days when the streets of Beijing were curb-to-curb bicycles to currently, where it's curb-to-curb Mercedes, and imvho there is less stifling bureaucracy and more innovative free enterprise in China right now than there is in the US.
So your understanding of China is right up there with your understanding of economics, non existent.
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
That's right. The People's Liberation Army (Chinese Army) has to make its own money for day to day costs. It owns agriculture, mining and transport monopolies in western Chinese provinces. Lucky they have all those Uyghur slave labour workers.

....and you think it's less bureaucratic and more business like, than the USA?

You should go there one day and have a look.


ASPI / ‘Re-education’, forced labour and surveillance beyond Xinjiang.
"The Chinese government has facilitated the mass transfer of Uyghur and other ethnic minority1 citizens from the far west region of Xinjiang to factories across the country. Under conditions that strongly suggest forced labour, Uyghurs are working in factories that are in the supply chains of at least 82 well-known global brands in the technology, clothing and automotive sectors, including Apple, BMW, Gap, Huawei, Nike, Samsung, Sony and Volkswagen."
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
Libertarians rarely like having their fantasies debunked I'm afraid.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:28 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
So your understanding of China is right up there with your understanding of economics, non existent.

Apparently I can't compete in any way with your knowledge of China.

How many times have you been there?
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Old 1st March 2021, 01:53 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Apparently I can't compete in any way with your knowledge of China.

How many times have you been there?
On your extensive survey of China, what was your assessment of the slums and shanty towns?
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Old 1st March 2021, 02:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
On your extensive survey of China, what was your assessment of the slums and shanty towns?
They all drive Mercedes Benzes, did you not see that?

When I was visiting Shanghai for work I met up with a cousin who lives there. He took me back to his apartment. Leaving from the Four Seasons we walked a short distance and we were mainly catching up on family gossip for the first 20 minutes of the walk. At some point I noticed a change in surroundings and it was like we had walked from a movie set of "shiny city" to movie set of "old china" in less than 30 minutes. The worst part was seeing the old art deco buildings covered in grime that just were never going to be as pretty as they one were. Inside, they were fantastic, though.

But hey, the Four Seasons was very nice.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:39 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
They all drive Mercedes Benzes, did you not see that?

When I was visiting Shanghai for work I met up with a cousin who lives there. He took me back to his apartment. Leaving from the Four Seasons we walked a short distance and we were mainly catching up on family gossip for the first 20 minutes of the walk. At some point I noticed a change in surroundings and it was like we had walked from a movie set of "shiny city" to movie set of "old china" in less than 30 minutes. The worst part was seeing the old art deco buildings covered in grime that just were never going to be as pretty as they one were. Inside, they were fantastic, though.

But hey, the Four Seasons was very nice.
I did see that! I just asked Marge "What do you remember about all the Mercedes' in China," and she said "They are all black."

Yes! but that was a few years ago, and things are happening so fast they might be yellow with pink polka-dots now.

We walked through a couple of the old hutongs, and as with your art deco buildings, some were a bit shabby, but we went in to a couple of homes that were very nice inside.

I can imagine that the Four Seasons was nice.

I think it was about 20 years ago that our Deluxe Motor Coach (Bus.) stopped at a five star Shangrila Hotel in Wuhan for a pit stop, and it was the most luxurious hotel I've ever been in to this day- all polished wood, granite, and brass, as I recall. (The most luxurious hotel I've actually stayed in was a 5-star Renaissance Hotel in Sydney that we got bumped up into because our 4-star hotel was appropriated by a big conference.

And I've also stayed in a lot of Motel 6's.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 1st March 2021 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
How many times have you been there?
I lived in Hong Kong with the white ghosts up the mountain. My father was treating diplomats and commonwealth officers for drug & alcohol problems.
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:29 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I did see that! I just asked Marge "What do you remember about all the Mercedes' in China," and she said "They are all black."
Number of Cars per 1000 USA citizens = 838
Number of Cars per 1000 Chinese citizens = 200
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...les_per_capita

Peasants don't drive Mercedes. Taking chickens to market ruins the upholstery.
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Number of Cars per 1000 USA citizens = 838

Number of Cars per 1000 Chinese citizens = 200

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...les_per_capita



Peasants don't drive Mercedes. Taking chickens to market ruins the upholstery.
Yeah, but they can get an entire studio apartment (furnishings) or 10 cubic meters of bamboo poles on a single scooter.

Or nine people and three dogs!

That's pretty damned impressive.

Where's your DMV regs now, eh? Eh?
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:12 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Number of Cars per 1000 USA citizens = 838
Number of Cars per 1000 Chinese citizens = 200
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...les_per_capita

Peasants don't drive Mercedes. Taking chickens to market ruins the upholstery.
How does that compare with Aussie citizens, Matthew?
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:51 PM   #68
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
How does that compare with Aussie citizens, Matthew?
Australians have 789 cars per 1000 citizens, which is roughly the same as the USA and four times that of China.

Did you research to see what the ten most popular cars are in China? It ain't Mercedes.

Try to do basic research next time.
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Old 1st March 2021, 10:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Australians have 789 cars per 1000 citizens, which is roughly the same as the USA and four times that of China.

Did you research to see what the ten most popular cars are in China? It ain't Mercedes.

Try to do basic research next time.
It appears that I don't need to since I have you as my personal statistician.
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:42 PM   #70
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Not sure how you deduced that.
Public statistics.

Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
It appears that I don't need to since I have you as my personal statistician.
No. Public statistics are already public.

I am not here to educate you about basic high school research skills, am I?
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Old 2nd March 2021, 10:42 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I did see that! I just asked Marge "What do you remember about all the Mercedes' in China," and she said "They are all black."
That actually reminded me of another funny thing about China: so many cars seemed to be owned by organizations, not people. I visited one client that had a whole fleet of matching Toyotas (black long wheel base camrys IIRC) out front and I asked about it. Management all expected to be picked up and dropped off. None of them drove themselves, they employed a bunch of drivers. Workers rode buses.

At one point we needed to change plans soon after being dropped off at an airport. The client had another car waiting at the airport to pick someone up later that day, so it only took a few minutes and another car showed up. This client was not a huge international company, but a fleet of cars and drivers was important to how they did business.

A bit like town-car service in New York, but owned by the company, not a transportation service.
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