IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , diseases

Reply
Old 26th February 2021, 05:02 PM   #1841
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 19,061
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In other words, you're promoting nonsense that starkly contradicts the science, providing no facts other than inane anecdotes that defy simple arithmetic/probabilities, and while so doing you accuse others of failing to apply critical thinking. Par for the course.
An argument from personal incredulity vs . . . medical science. Hmmm, which one of these?

Last edited by Resume; 26th February 2021 at 05:06 PM.
Resume is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 05:04 PM   #1842
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You are in no position to force me to do anything, "Foster Zygote". You can't even insult me. But I shared an anecdote recently when a young man randomly approached me at the bus station facing a high-rise building, asking me if I had ever seen a human jumping out of a high-rise building.

Just because you think you are doing fine in this insanity (and I am doing fine as well, not personally complaining), doesn't mean that countless people, especially the young and the old, aren't crushed by these "measures" more than they could ever be by any real "pandemic".
In other words, you don't know "a lot" of people who have died or been made sick by social distancing. You lied. For all your dramatics, you haven't denied that you lied.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 07:39 PM   #1843
Tom Palven
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Hilarious. Nice to have you here on the forum, Tom!
Thank you.

I feel the same about you, and can empathize with Caroline, too.
Tom Palven is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 08:01 PM   #1844
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,029
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This isn't a music video, Matthew, it's George Carlin making a relevant prediction about germs in 2008:
Quote from opening of your comic's video "It is one more way they can take your liberty...."

No Tom. George Carlin is a stage comedian and not a scientist. Where does he predict 500,000 Americans would die?

What freedom did you lose compared to those 500,000 dead American citizens?

Reply using your own words Tom Palven.

Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 09:50 PM   #1845
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,029
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Hilarious. Nice to have you here on the forum, Tom!
What was "hilarious" in the 2008 George Carlin video?

He said, in his 2008 stand up comedy routine, "that Americans are now scared of germs? Do you think that in 2021 that after 500,000 deaths "from germs", that Americans should not be scared of Covid-19?


Perhaps Tom Palven, Caroline13 and yourself could explain this, to us, as a team effort.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2021, 10:22 PM   #1846
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,146
I liked George Carlin's stand up but the man battled drug and alcohol addiction and died of heart failure when he was just 71, he's not exactly a reliable source of medical advice.

Germs have always been one of humanity's biggest killers, it makes sense to be scared of the potentially fatal ones, at least until you've been vaccinated against them.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Pixel42; 26th February 2021 at 10:25 PM.
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 02:36 AM   #1847
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,849
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This isn't a music video, Matthew, it's George Carlin making a relevant prediction about germs in 2008:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...add28be51db94f
he was humorous, but what else do you expect from drugs, and BS.

lol, an expert at humor... this is your evidence for germs... classic BS

After three court martials, lots of drugs, what do you expect... comedy... not evidence except for wild conspiracy theories about your fictional virus theories.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 02:51 AM   #1848
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,892
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Nanopatticles that let you travel back in time? Sign me up! Gonna go back and buy a crap-load of Apple stock the minute they go (went) public!

Guess I'd better dust off my copy of Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.
I think I was being too generous:

EvOH0hMXIAANU0c.jpg
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 02:55 AM   #1849
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,892
Originally Posted by Big Les View Post
Another Twitter denizen 'Just Asking Questions'. Joel Smalley - 'quantative analyst' - loves to dance around the point and protest that he's not a lockdown/mask 'sceptic' or an antivaxxer, yet is very clearly suggesting that the third wave of COVID-19 in the UK is due to vaccination;

https://twitter.com/RealJoelSmalley/...64949136793601

See also the last 30mins or so of this interview;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWTaEtkZiA4

Poisoning the well/ad hominem perhaps, but see also this;

https://committees.parliament.uk/wri...nce/13446/pdf/

And this light debunk of his earlier claim; https://nealokelly-41602.medium.com/...t-7511e95439fb

None of it passes the 'smell test' for me for obvious reasons, but I am out of my depth on his methodology, so if anyone with the skills can debunk, I would be interested.

He's dodgy AF. And isn't above fudging his data.

https://twitter.com/ParkinJim/status...90390608953345

and my overlaying of the government data from that:



ETA: Note that he uses *his* model and the data *(which he's done some silly smoothing to, if I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt)doesn't fit. But that's somehow suspicious and it's his (undisclosed) model which obviously reflects reality.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Eu0ofLzWQAAQyQ1.jpg (20.6 KB, 11 views)
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by zooterkin; 27th February 2021 at 12:08 PM. Reason: large image
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 02:56 AM   #1850
Tom Palven
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
he was humorous, but what else do you expect from drugs, and BS.

lol, an expert at humor... this is your evidence for germs... classic BS

After three court martials, lots of drugs, what do you expect... comedy... not evidence except for wild conspiracy theories about your fictional virus theories.
It's too bad George is not around to comment on Pope Anthony (Fauci).

It could have been classic.
Tom Palven is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 03:04 AM   #1851
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,146
My guess is Carlin would be making fun of people like you, rather than Fauci, Tom. His modern equivalents certainly are.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 03:15 AM   #1852
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,892
Originally Posted by Big Les View Post
Another Twitter denizen 'Just Asking Questions'. Joel Smalley - 'quantative analyst' - loves to dance around the point and protest that he's not a lockdown/mask 'sceptic' or an antivaxxer, yet is very clearly suggesting that the third wave of COVID-19 in the UK is due to vaccination;

https://twitter.com/RealJoelSmalley/...64949136793601

See also the last 30mins or so of this interview;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWTaEtkZiA4

Poisoning the well/ad hominem perhaps, but see also this;

https://committees.parliament.uk/wri...nce/13446/pdf/

And this light debunk of his earlier claim; https://nealokelly-41602.medium.com/...t-7511e95439fb

None of it passes the 'smell test' for me for obvious reasons, but I am out of my depth on his methodology, so if anyone with the skills can debunk, I would be interested.
I guess it might evolve from this ( my take on an earlier analysis)


https://twitter.com/ParkinJim/status...834997249?s=20

And this very bad graph of his:

Eur5zaeXEAESdDS.jpg


There are several things wrong with this (discussed in the thread) but notice how he has attributed the 2021 excess to either "unexplained" or "denial of healthcare" with nothing to do with COVID-19

This is what the raw weekly numbers in England and Wales look like running from wk10 to wk9 (to show the full effect of a year of Covid) and for 2014wk10 to 2021. With the 5 year average for 2015-2019 added in.

The red line is deaths where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate, i.e. as a contributory factor - and in the overwhelming majority of cases, the underlying cause, unlike with flu.



Note also the attributing of about a thousand "excess" deaths a week to denial of healthcare - including in the summer... when to quote an actual actuary:

https://twitter.com/longevitymatt/st...631645698?s=20

Quote:
Matt Fletcher
@longevitymatt
Unknown
Replying to
@ParkinJim
Standardised deaths in the third quarter of 2020 were the lowest on record (i.e. the lowest ever) - against what baseline could anyone claim that was an excess, much less a significant one?
Joel Smalley's justification involved more technobabble than an episode of ST-TNG

Those deaths he's decided were due to denial of healthcare are just there to make it seem as though lockdown killed more than Covid.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 27th February 2021 at 03:21 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 03:31 AM   #1853
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,146
"Denial of healthcare" is an odd one. Lack of capacity to treat other illnesses is due to the pandemic, not lockdown. Needing medical treatment has always been a valid reason to leave your home, even in the most stringent of lockdowns, but people are understandably reluctant to risk catching Covid and keep away from hospitals and surgeries, sometimes when they shouldn't. Lockdown, by stopping health services from being overwhelmed, has actually reduced the size of the problem.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Pixel42; 27th February 2021 at 03:32 AM.
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 04:35 AM   #1854
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,892
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
"Denial of healthcare" is an odd one. Lack of capacity to treat other illnesses is due to the pandemic, not lockdown. Needing medical treatment has always been a valid reason to leave your home, even in the most stringent of lockdowns, but people are understandably reluctant to risk catching Covid and keep away from hospitals and surgeries, sometimes when they shouldn't. Lockdown, by stopping health services from being overwhelmed, has actually reduced the size of the problem.
Indeed it is, but it's a way of blinding people with pseudoscience.

https://twitter.com/RealJoelSmalley/...47463242915841

Quote:
Joel Smalley
@RealJoelSmalley
Normal
3%
Replying to
@RealJoelSmalley
For the data geeks, my excess death model is a "contemporary" baseline carefully created from the 2-factor polynomial fit of natural log of weekly deaths for the prior 5 years, adjusted to fit the current period based on data points that are assumed to be unaffected by COVID.

Why a two-factor polynomial (which I like to call a quadratic, as sounding less mysterious) instead of a 5-year average as used by the ONS? If you start getting more um... "sophisticated" why not see what actual professionals do.

And when your analysis disagrees with both a simple look at the data, and the full-on actuarial analyses, it's not them that's wrong.

ETA.

The whole, "Lockdown caused the NHS to be overwhelmed", at least that was the unspoken insinuation, seems to be the equivalent of "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 27th February 2021 at 05:26 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 10:37 AM   #1855
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
It's too bad George is not around to comment on Pope Anthony (Fauci).

It could have been classic.
Does concentrating your vitriol on Dr. Fauci help you to ignore the overwhelming scientific consensus, of which he is merely the most prominent public representative in the U.S.?

And while I certainly apprehend the devastating rhetorical power of derogatory nicknames, at least as far as the rubes are concerned (look to the reputation for public oratory of our last president), you're little different from a creationist incessantly referring to someone like Richard Dawkins as "Dick Dorkins", but never offering the slightest empirical evidence against the theory of evolution by natural selection.

And finally, I'd still like your take on how it is that you came to be so much smarter and more authoritative than virtually the entirety of the world's medical community.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

Last edited by Foster Zygote; 27th February 2021 at 10:55 AM.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 10:47 AM   #1856
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
It's too bad George is not around to comment on Pope Anthony (Fauci).

It could have been classic.
Seems awfully UScentric. Are you aware that there is an entire planet out there, full of people who know full well, without any involvement whatsoever of Dr Fauci, that there is a pandemic going on? And most countries are doing a significantly better job of dealing with the pandemic than the "land of the free", where denial is rampant.

George Carlin was a bright man and would have known these things. He would most certainly not have used you for source material.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 11:00 AM   #1857
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,852
During Ebola, Fauci used to be quite the darling of the Right, because he gave them material to imply that Obama wasn't doing enough.
__________________
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 12:10 PM   #1858
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,814
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yes. we did. In the heavy flu season 2017/2018 for example, the RKI estimated 25,000 deaths by flu. Nobody made a fuss about it.
I don't know whether anyone made a fuss about it, but Covid-19 deaths in Germany are nearly 3 times that.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 01:01 PM   #1859
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,814
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yeah, that's nice. As I said in the thread where I originally posted, I live in the center of a big city in the middle of one of the most densely populated regions on earth. And I still don't know anybody who is sick and dying of "Covid-19" while I take public transportation almost daily and go shopping several times a week. And while I'm a bit autistic like all of us who sport tens of thousands of posts in some internet backyard, I know quite a lot of people.
Lucky you. How many people do you know well enough that you would be informed if they were taken ill?

I know several people who have had Covid-19. Some have recovered fully, others have ongoing problems. I also know several people who have lost friends and relatives to it; the most recent friend of a friend to die is the guitarist Tony Morrison (aka Tony Perfect, aka Tony Feedback); he was 61 and otherwise fit, from what I've heard.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 03:49 PM   #1860
Big Les
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,044
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Joel Smalley's justification involved more technobabble than an episode of ST-TNG
Many thanks for taking the time jimbob, and I also enjoyed this reference

ETA - more scepticism of the 'sceptic' here; https://twitter.com/_johnbye/status/1365650856566263809

Last edited by Big Les; 27th February 2021 at 03:56 PM.
Big Les is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 08:11 PM   #1861
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,951
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I don't know whether anyone made a fuss about it, but Covid-19 deaths in Germany are nearly 3 times that.
And only that good because they took stronger measures than ever taken against the flu.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2021, 08:17 PM   #1862
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,029
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Does concentrating your vitriol on Dr. Fauci help you to ignore the overwhelming scientific consensus...
This particular flavour of conspiracy nuttiness, is from Ron Paul. His fans spam Ron Paul's bizarre claims on social networks.

Dr Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and a member of the White House coronavirus response task force, wants to have “total control” of the American people, Mr Paul claimed during Thursday’s airing of his programme, titled Ron Paul Liberty Report.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9459891.html

Naturally, it makes no sense at all. Dr Fauci has served previous presidents without trying to takeover, and, additionally, asking people to wear a mask is hardly taking total control.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 02:56 AM   #1863
Tom Palven
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
This particular flavour of conspiracy nuttiness, is from Ron Paul. His fans spam Ron Paul's bizarre claims on social networks.

Dr Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and a member of the White House coronavirus response task force, wants to have “total control” of the American people, Mr Paul claimed during Thursday’s airing of his programme, titled Ron Paul Liberty Report.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9459891.html

Naturally, it makes no sense at all. Dr Fauci has served previous presidents without trying to takeover, and, additionally, asking people to wear a mask is hardly taking total control.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
imvho, anyone who accepts every bit of dogma from Pope Anthony as gospel is an Orthodox Covidist.

Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd March 2021 at 02:37 AM.
Tom Palven is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 03:42 AM   #1864
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,146
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
imvho, anyone who accepts every bit of dogma from Pope Anthony as gospel is an Orthodox Covidist.
You have yet to even attempt to make any sort of case for the claims you have made. Posts like this confirm the suspicion that this is because you are unable to do so.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd March 2021 at 02:38 AM.
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 03:51 AM   #1865
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32,613
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think I was being too generous:

Attachment 44318

Brian O'Shea (Her husband tweeted)

@BrianOSheaSPI
Censorship comes home! My wife
@naomirwolf just got put in Twitter jail for reporting on the following technologies, accused of spreading “misinformation” despite using peer reviewed sources (like MIT, Nature, Lancet, etc) ...let’s get everyone to share & RT this occurrence.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 04:43 AM   #1866
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,560
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I don't know whether anyone made a fuss about it, but Covid-19 deaths in Germany are nearly 3 times that.
I would say the issue is people not taking flu seriously enough rather than overreacting to Covid-19. Look at some of the simple measures shops have taken during the pandemic that could have surely curtailed the spread of flu in past years, plastic shields at tills, hand sanitizer, etc.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 04:54 AM   #1867
Carrot Flower King
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 897
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Seems awfully UScentric. Are you aware that there is an entire planet out there, full of people who know full well, without any involvement whatsoever of Dr Fauci, that there is a pandemic going on? And most countries are doing a significantly better job of dealing with the pandemic than the "land of the free", where denial is rampant.

George Carlin was a bright man and would have known these things. He would most certainly not have used you for source material.
That Merkinanian-centricity seems to be typical of a certain type of commenter and always tells me how seriously I should take what they say.
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 05:59 AM   #1868
Tom Palven
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You have yet to even attempt to make any sort of case for the claims you have made. Posts like this confirm the suspicion that this is because you are unable to do so.
I made several very long-winded posts over at the Skeptic.com forum about the many pieces to the alleged Covid Plague puzzle, and how it has become, imvho, an almost religious political movement instead of a rational response to a virus.

From the beginning it was trumpeted as a a "novel" virus, as though it was totally unrelated to other common-cold corona viruses, and then the hysterical panic-porn escalated from there.

Possibly my biggest cause for skepticism in the large puzzle is the labelling of alleged end-of-life Covid deaths differently than deaths associated with Clostridium difficile, as noted above in my post on Feb. 22 at 9:51 AM currently on the top of page 42.

That C. diff probably goes almost unreported as a contributing in deaths is not scandalous because the C. diff infection is largely irrelevant

Last edited by Tom Palven; 28th February 2021 at 06:20 AM.
Tom Palven is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 06:45 AM   #1869
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,892
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I made several very long-winded posts over at the Skeptic.com forum about the many pieces to the alleged Covid Plague puzzle, and how it has become, imvho, an almost religious political movement instead of a rational response to a virus.

From the beginning it was trumpeted as a a "novel" virus, as though it was totally unrelated to other common-cold corona viruses, and then the hysterical panic-porn escalated from there.

Possibly my biggest cause for skepticism in the large puzzle is the labelling of alleged end-of-life Covid deaths differently than deaths associated with Clostridium difficile, as noted above in my post on Feb. 22 at 9:51 AM currently on the top of page 42.

That C. diff probably goes almost unreported as a contributing in deaths is not scandalous because the C. diff infection is largely irrelevant

Have you actually looked at any data? Say the all-cause data for England and Wales (which I have going back to wk31, 1999):




What happened in England and Wales in Spring 2020 that caused an unprecedented* spike in deaths which coincided with COVID-19 being mentioned on the death certificate?

What happened in winter 2020-21 which had the worst week this Century, except for spring 2020?

This four-plot shows weekly numbers on the top, and cumulative along the bottom, raw numbers on the left and excess from a baseline of the median for the week number for 1999-2021.

The year runs from wk31 to wk31, which also manages to split out the first and second waves into 2019-20 and 2020-21

Note how the second wave is almost as bad as the first as far as excess deaths are concerned (easiest to see in bottom right plot)

There are many countries for which this looks similar, including the US and Europe as a whole. Some countries with decent approaches haven't been affected so badly.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 28th February 2021 at 06:48 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 07:23 AM   #1870
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 28,194
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
You claim to be an atheist, Matthew, but imvho, anyone who accepts every bit of dogma from Pope Anthony as gospel is an Orthodox Covidist.
That's utter baloney. This kind of demonizing is so nonsensical it taints everything else you might say. Fauci is doing his job. Don't like it? Fine, don't like it and tell us why. But constant name calling and mockery is an argument-loser.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 07:56 AM   #1871
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 48,814
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I made several very long-winded posts over at the Skeptic.com forum about the many pieces to the alleged Covid Plague puzzle, and how it has become, imvho, an almost religious political movement instead of a rational response to a virus.

From the beginning it was trumpeted as a a "novel" virus, as though it was totally unrelated to other common-cold corona viruses, and then the hysterical panic-porn escalated from there.
You are aware that 'novel' just means 'new'? New virus, not new type of virus; it's a coronavirus, that's the type.
Quote:
Possibly my biggest cause for skepticism in the large puzzle is the labelling of alleged end-of-life Covid deaths differently than deaths associated with Clostridium difficile, as noted above in my post on Feb. 22 at 9:51 AM currently on the top of page 42.

That C. diff probably goes almost unreported as a contributing in deaths is not scandalous because the C. diff infection is largely irrelevant
Nonsense. Please respond to jimbob's actual data.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 08:17 AM   #1872
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,572
https://www.psypost.org/2021/02/peop...zzajcqDheX3zJk

Quote:
People who believe COVID-19 conspiracy theories tend to struggle with scientific reasoning, study finds
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 08:25 AM   #1873
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brian O'Shea (Her husband tweeted)

@BrianOSheaSPI
Censorship comes home! My wife
@naomirwolf just got put in Twitter jail for reporting on the following technologies, accused of spreading “misinformation” despite using peer reviewed sources (like MIT, Nature, Lancet, etc) ...let’s get everyone to share & RT this occurrence.
How funny is it that these people are so stupid that they think the Illuminati, or Reptiloids, or Mole Men, or CHUDs, or whoever the **** they think runs the world, would give their "victims" the power of time travel. "Sure is lucky Skynet gave us all those time travel injections so we can defeat it before it existed!"
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 08:55 AM   #1874
Tom Palven
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You are aware that 'novel' just means 'new'?
Yes, I know, and the CDC mentions novel strains of flu virus every year, but the sensationalist press used the word to mean "alarmingly unique."

I have to leave at this moment, but will try to decipher those graphs and address excess deaths, which needs some explaining.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 28th February 2021 at 08:59 AM.
Tom Palven is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 09:00 AM   #1875
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Yes, I know, and the CDC mentions novel strains of flu virus every year, but the sensationalist press used the word to mean "alarmingly unique."

I have to leave at this moment, but will try to decipher those graphs later.
Maybe you should avoid the sensationalist press, including sensationalist conspiracy theorists, and study the science. Then you would learn that then is no conspiracy (and that Dr. Fauci is not a pope).
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 09:06 AM   #1876
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
You claim to be an atheist, Matthew, but imvho, anyone who accepts every bit of dogma from Pope Anthony as gospel is an Orthodox Covidist.
That's one of the most pathetic "arguments" I've seen - and I've seen most of Yrreg's threads. Which reminds me - you forgot to type "(Fauci)" after "Pope Anthony".

The more you evade the issue of the massive scientific consensus arrayed against you on a global scale, the more obvious it is that you are aware of your own rhetorical failure.

Dr. Anthony Fauci is a leading expert in the field of epidemiology. His assessments and recommendations are fundamentally no different than those of the rest of the experts in that field world-wide. Representing him as a lone voice backed by no empirical evidence betrays a positively infantile ignorance of science. You are simply attempting to dodge that fact, because it makes you look like a bumpkin trying to overturn an entire field of science in which you have zero authority. Look at the same argumentation structure applied in another context:

Someone arguing that the earth is six thousand years old and that evolution doesn't exist, offering a nebulous claim that it is really attributed to "kinds", says, "anyone who accepts every bit of dogma from Pope Dawkins as gospel is an "Orthodox Evolutionist".

It's a very congruent analogy, because Richard Dawkins is simply a publicly known representative of a massive scientific consensus that would exist essentially the same without him. Additionally, I'm reminded of something Dawkins once wrote (paraphrasing) - "If the theory of evolution is ever overturned, it will be overturned by a biologist, not an idiot".
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 09:10 AM   #1877
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
That Merkinanian-centricity seems to be typical of a certain type of commenter and always tells me how seriously I should take what they say.
It's certainly consistent with someone who visits some Chinese cities and then tries to pass himself off as an expert in Chinese economics.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 09:17 AM   #1878
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
https://www.psypost.org/2021/02/peop...zzajcqDheX3zJk

Quote:
People who believe COVID-19 conspiracy theories tend to struggle with scientific reasoning, study finds
In my experience, the term "COVID-19" in the above quote, while certainly applicable, is superfluous.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 09:26 AM   #1879
Carrot Flower King
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 897
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Have you actually looked at any data? Say the all-cause data for England and Wales (which I have going back to wk31, 1999):




What happened in England and Wales in Spring 2020 that caused an unprecedented* spike in deaths which coincided with COVID-19 being mentioned on the death certificate?

What happened in winter 2020-21 which had the worst week this Century, except for spring 2020?

This four-plot shows weekly numbers on the top, and cumulative along the bottom, raw numbers on the left and excess from a baseline of the median for the week number for 1999-2021.

The year runs from wk31 to wk31, which also manages to split out the first and second waves into 2019-20 and 2020-21

Note how the second wave is almost as bad as the first as far as excess deaths are concerned (easiest to see in bottom right plot)

There are many countries for which this looks similar, including the US and Europe as a whole. Some countries with decent approaches haven't been affected so badly.
But, Jim, you've used UK-ian data and everyone knows that only Merkinanian data has any real meaning and relevance, 'cos the rest of us can't actually exist...
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2021, 09:30 AM   #1880
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
But, Jim, you've used UK-ian data and everyone knows that only Merkinanian data has any real meaning and relevance, 'cos the rest of us can't actually exist...
And, as I pointed out upthread, the 500,000 American COVID deaths is the number to be quoted when making a point rather than the 2.5 million worldwide deaths. American deaths are just more important I guess.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.