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Old 28th February 2021, 09:45 AM   #1881
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
And, as I pointed out upthread, the 500,000 American COVID deaths is the number to be quoted when making a point rather than the 2.5 million worldwide deaths. American deaths are just more important I guess.
Certainly not more important, but definitely an indicator of how bad things could have been world-wide, had other nations been as lax in their response.
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Old 28th February 2021, 09:55 AM   #1882
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
... but the sensationalist press
It looks as if your argument is with crappy reporting rather than with matters of fact concerning the epidemic.
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Old 28th February 2021, 10:46 AM   #1883
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
But, Jim, you've used UK-ian data and everyone knows that only Merkinanian data has any real meaning and relevance, 'cos the rest of us can't actually exist...
There is similar US data. I don't have it to hand but @39Magilla on Twitter has loads... And in fact has done an equivalent of my bottom left graph for the US
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:40 AM   #1884
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is similar US data. I don't have it to hand but @39Magilla on Twitter has loads... And in fact has done an equivalent of my bottom left graph for the US
For example

https://twitter.com/39Magilla/status...342936064?s=20

Quote:
(948) CDC Reports +36,839 Unexpected Deaths in 2020 and 2021 for Adults whose Last Birthday was 25-44 years of age. That's 600-800 per week.

- Young men and women.
- Beloved children.
- Significant others.
- Mothers and Fathers.
- Sisters and Brothers.

36,839 Dead and Rising.
Graph in tweet
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Old 28th February 2021, 04:20 PM   #1885
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Well, I just got "The Text" and after carefully balancing up the advice of medical experts & worldwide death toll on one hand, and on the other the insane rantings of Aunty Doris' Facebook page... I have an appointment with Mr Pointy on Friday.
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Old 28th February 2021, 04:46 PM   #1886
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well, I just got "The Text" and after carefully balancing up the advice of medical experts & worldwide death toll on one hand, and on the other the insane rantings of Aunty Doris' Facebook page... I have an appointment with Mr Pointy on Friday.
I think my age (59) and non-critical position puts me around June/July here in Oregon.
Anyone got a spare "underlying condition" lying around?


Eta: Guess I picked the wrong decade to quit smoking... that would.have moved me up the list I think. Or is that just in NJ (joke on SNL I just saw)?
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Old 28th February 2021, 11:19 PM   #1887
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Yes, I know, and the CDC mentions novel strains of flu virus every year, but the sensationalist press used the word to mean "alarmingly unique."

I have to leave at this moment, but will try to decipher those graphs and address excess deaths, which needs some explaining.
You can't address the excess deaths, they are real, you believe in BS, not real.

Plus why you are you talking about Covid, for you it is Fiction.

lol, you missed the Yellow Press... term used in the 1890s to identify the sensational journalism. You are more than 100 years late in figuring out sensational press... Get caught up and try not to use Fox news, or Breitbart as your source of woo

Why are you anti-science?
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Old 1st March 2021, 01:26 AM   #1888
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Yes, I know, and the CDC mentions novel strains of flu virus every year, but the sensationalist press used the word to mean "alarmingly unique."

I have to leave at this moment, but will try to decipher those graphs and address excess deaths, which needs some explaining.
How is it that you have concluded that Covid is fake without understanding how to read a graph, and without looking at the data for excess deaths?
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:44 AM   #1889
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I think my age (59) and non-critical position puts me around June/July here in Oregon.
Anyone got a spare "underlying condition" lying around?


Eta: Guess I picked the wrong decade to quit smoking... that would.have moved me up the list I think. Or is that just in NJ (joke on SNL I just saw)?
You can borrow my cardiomyopathy and CCF, just make sure you lose them somewhere between Oregon and here...
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:04 AM   #1890
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
What exactly was the point you think you made about it?
I think some people have addressed what appears to have been his point on C. diff. Palven notes that people who are at the door of death from various causes often actually die of more immediate things, such as the common C diff, but they are still said to have died of the diseases that led them to that last hurdle. He thus concludes that the same should be applied broadly to the attribution of death by Covid-19.

What I think is omitted is the fact that such things as C diff and pneumonia are common and predictable final illnesses for people who were very close to death already - that is, people whose death was certain and predictable. That is quite different from the trivially obvious point that a person with a health problem might not survive Covid-19. The difference is that even if the bad health was a major contributor to the death, the absence of Covid-19 would make a real and tangible difference in the outcome.

If I am in horrible health such that the duration of my future life is tenuous, and you come up with a gun and shoot me, it's appropriate to say I was shot to death, even if you could make a case that I'd have lived if I had been fitter, and even if there's a significant chance that I could drop dead at any time.

I think something like this argument has not been absent from this thread, but that is not the same as having it acknowledged, much less accepted.

e.t.a. If I've gotten Tom Palven's point wrong, I invite him to state it more correctly, but request that it be done without musical accompaniment.
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:25 AM   #1891
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think some people have addressed what appears to have been his point on C. diff. Palven notes that people who are at the door of death from various causes often actually die of more immediate things, such as the common C diff, but they are still said to have died of the diseases that led them to that last hurdle. He thus concludes that the same should be applied broadly to the attribution of death by Covid-19.
To which, amongst other responses, I posted a link to a study which concluded the average victim of Covid-19 had an estimated 10+ years of life snuffed out. And, as I recall, Tom decided to wave that away simply by wondering whether the University's data could be dodgy, even though they have a statue he quite likes.
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:29 AM   #1892
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An explanation of how UK death certificates work.

https://geekymedics.com/certificatio...uk-osce-guide/
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:44 AM   #1893
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
To which, amongst other responses, I posted a link to a study which concluded the average victim of Covid-19 had an estimated 10+ years of life snuffed out. And, as I recall, Tom decided to wave that away simply by wondering whether the University's data could be dodgy, even though they have a statue he quite likes.
Yes, I think in this case our poster has confused "addressed" with "agreed with."
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:53 AM   #1894
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Mod WarningSeveral posts of bickering have been moved to AAH. Please keep to the topic of the thread, which is not one another.
Posted By:zooterkin
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Old 1st March 2021, 01:10 PM   #1895
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This just arrived from Jon today. Not sure which Covid thread to publish it, so here it is now:

https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/


One thing this covid did was put this gal into a new political party or maybe None.

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Old 1st March 2021, 01:39 PM   #1896
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Quote:
We don’t need charts and graphs to see this. It’s right in front of our eyes.
I like it.

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Old 1st March 2021, 02:01 PM   #1897
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How is it that you have concluded that Covid is fake without understanding how to read a graph, and without looking at the data for excess deaths?
Indeed

Can you spot the year that Covid-19 hit the England and Wales?



This plots every week this century (and indeed back to wk31, 1999)
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Old 1st March 2021, 02:06 PM   #1898
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
This just arrived from Jon today. Not sure which Covid thread to publish it, so here it is now:

https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/


One thing this covid did was put this gal into a new political party or maybe None.
I prefer to get facts from real scientists, not random internet bloggers with no medical degree or even training.
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Old 1st March 2021, 02:54 PM   #1899
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
This just arrived from Jon today. Not sure which Covid thread to publish it, so here it is now:

https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/


One thing this covid did was put this gal into a new political party or maybe None.
Can't say the blogger didn't warn you. I love this from his "professional services" section:

All these services share a common feature: the invention of new and better reality, and making that reality as impactful as possible.

Jon Rappoport


It does appear he's doing a yeoman's job creating an alternate reality. Too bad it isn't the one I live in.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:07 PM   #1900
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Originally Posted by Lrrr View Post
I prefer to get facts from real scientists, not random internet bloggers with no medical degree or even training.
Well then stick with Fauci and his gang. I prefer to look at ALL discussions and how about the AmericanFrontLine Doctors...most are MD's, some Ph.D's, and others investigative researchers/journalists, like Rappaport....

Stay in your closed box.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:10 PM   #1901
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
Can't say the blogger didn't warn you. I love this from his "professional services" section:

All these services share a common feature: the invention of new and better reality, and making that reality as impactful as possible.

Jon Rappoport


It does appear he's doing a yeoman's job creating an alternate reality. Too bad it isn't the one I live in.
You choose the ONE you live in, I have an open mind and look at as much as I can and make my decisions.

You are needed to get on the Fauci bandwagon.

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Old 1st March 2021, 03:29 PM   #1902
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
Well then stick with Fauci and his gang. I prefer to look at ALL discussions and how about the AmericanFrontLine Doctors...most are MD's, some Ph.D's, and others investigative researchers/journalists, like Rappaport....

Stay in your closed box.
Yeah. me too. I was watching a Covid-19 presentation Simone Gold (a founder of AFLD and both an MD and Lawyer) gave back in early Jan after she went to DC and did her thing but before the FBI arrested her. She's big on the Covid-19 Vaxes being too dangerous to take. Quite different than her hero Trump, for instance, who strongly encouraged people to get vaccinated. Operation Warp Speed, etc. I guess that dissonance didn't keep her away on Jan. 6.

There's a smattering of educated people that buy into unorthodox beliefs. Sometimes, but quite rarely, they overturn paradigms. I doubt Gold will be one of the few.
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Old 1st March 2021, 03:37 PM   #1903
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
You are needed to get on the Fauci bandwagon.
I disagree with Fauci at times. For instance back when he and others like the surgeon general were telling people not to wear masks. Also when aerosol spread was considered a non-factor and the evidence was pointing to it.

I'm not much for bandwagons. I consider there is only one reality and don't look to others to define it for me. I use my knowledge and analytic techniques to evaluate what I read. Each of us has areas of expertise and evaluating new material is more fruitful when one has some overlapping knowledge in common. Less so when one doesn't.

How do you evaluate the various theories on Covid-19?
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:12 PM   #1904
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
the sensationalist press
Out of curiosity Tom, what would you consider the sensationalist press (as in, name some press organs that would qualify) and what do you consider to be the press organs which are not sensationalist?
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:10 PM   #1905
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Out of curiosity Tom, what would you consider the sensationalist press (as in, name some press organs that would qualify) and what do you consider to be the press organs which are not sensationalist?
More to the point, Tom should cite specific instances.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:24 PM   #1906
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Strikes me odd as well as, an entire year ago I saw/read myriad examples giving straight forward explanations of the use of "novel" in an epidemiological context, as well as the meaning of the "COVID 19" label*.

*Which I misremembered here a couple months later, was promptly corrected, and have remembered since.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:37 PM   #1907
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Out of curiosity Tom, what would you consider the sensationalist press (as in, name some press organs that would qualify) and what do you consider to be the press organs which are not sensationalist?
I think that the AP and all the major media revel in sensationalism. It took a while for Reuters to jump on the panic-porn bandwagon, but then it did, with both feet.

I value the opinions of independent journalists like Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, Paul Craig Roberts, Daniel McAdam, Jon Rappoport, and Caitlin Johnstone.

The major media are generally a bunch of sheepparrots, reading self-promoting press releases from the State Dept., Treasury Dept., Pentagon, and other government agencies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dguiAWrUGMM

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Old 1st March 2021, 06:42 PM   #1908
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
You choose the ONE you live in, I have an open mind and look at as much as I can and make my decisions.

You are needed to get on the Fauci bandwagon.
This is true. Living in the real world is a choice, and unfortunately a hard one for some.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:45 PM   #1909
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I think that the AP and all the major media revel in sensationalism. It took a while for Reuters to jump on the panic-porn bandwagon, but then it did, with both feet.

I value the opinions of independent journalists like Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, Paul Craig Roberts, Daniel McAdam, Jon Rappoport, and Caitlin Johnstone.

The major media are generally a bunch of sheepparrots, reading self-promoting press releases from the State Dept., Treasury Dept., Pentagon, and other government agencies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dguiAWrUGMM
Wtf? to demonstrate media sensationalism you post a link to a YouTube of Conan O'Brian??

That's laughably lame. So is Caitlin Johnston, nutcase extraordinaire. But I digress.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:56 PM   #1910
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I think that the AP and all the major media revel in sensationalism. It took a while for Reuters to jump on the panic-porn bandwagon, but then it did, with both feet.

I value the opinions of independent journalists like Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, Paul Craig Roberts, Daniel McAdam, Jon Rappoport, and Caitlin Johnstone.
...
Christ... the creativecoherance dot org mental masturbation brigade.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:05 PM   #1911
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Wtf? to demonstrate media sensationalism you post a link to a YouTube of Conan O'Brian??

That's laughably lame. So is Caitlin Johnston, nutcase extraordinaire. But I digress.
If you support the kind of "journalism" that O'Brien revealed, I gotta think that it is you who are laughably lame, big time.
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Old 1st March 2021, 08:12 PM   #1912
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So saying that there's a huge pandemic and pointing out that over a half million people have died from it is sensationalism, but claiming that everyone who has a position of medical authority, along with statisticians and politicians and world leaders, is part of a giant conspiracy of lies in order to herd the hapless into some vaguely defined world order...that's not sensationalism, no no.

Is there some definition of sensationalism that does not reduce to "disagrees with me?"
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Old 1st March 2021, 10:49 PM   #1913
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
If you support the kind of "journalism" that O'Brien revealed, I gotta think that it is you who are laughably lame, big time.
I don't have an opinion because I didn't watch the video once I saw what you were foisting. (I'm generally disinclined to click youtubes in any event.)

Brace yourself, here's an advanced concept for you to consider: If you want to demonstrate to critical thinkers that the media is lame, provide one or more direct, on-topic examples. I don't care what Conan O'Brian said. I don't care what George Carlin said. I don't care to read a third party opinion, not even if it's Kevin Bacon's cousin's best friend.

Direct evidence please.

Add: ok i couldn't resist. I watched it. Highly amusing and entirely irrelevant. Yes, they often say goofy things on local news programs. (The repetition suggests those are Sinclair channels.) Whatever, it's yet another example of your whimsical, brazen evasiveness.
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Old 1st March 2021, 10:53 PM   #1914
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If seasonal flu and Covid-19 are transmitted in similar ways, measures taken against Covid ought to work against seasonal flu too. Covid-19 is deadly, and unusual measures have been taken against it. For the past year we've been wearing masks and stores have closed their drinking fountains and coffee dispensers, and every store I go into has a hand cleaner dispenser.

The big surprise would be if seasonal flu rates and even common colds did not decline.
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:26 PM   #1915
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
...
I value the opinions of independent journalists like ... Paul Craig Roberts ...
Opinions? lol, you need science, math, and engineering, and you pick opinions from someone who can't figure out 9/11 given the answers.

Poor Paul Craig Roberts can't figure out 9/11, and that AE911T are nuts, he thinks they are professional.

And you can't figure out why the flu is not as bad this year... Hint:social distancing, possibly masks, and people working from home. We have stopped the spread of the flu by NOT spreading it... And you got your flu BS from internet nut who makes up and spreads dumbed down woo, and you repost it without thinking -

Your sources are bad - DO you try to check the data, and what you post against reality, or do you have special filger to find woo, and blindly post it...
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Old 1st March 2021, 11:56 PM   #1916
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
Where did all that seasonal flu go?
Are you really that ignorant about basic science?



How coronavirus lockdowns stopped flu in its tracks
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01538-8

COVID-19 measures also suppress flu
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021...ppress-flu-now
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Old 2nd March 2021, 12:19 AM   #1917
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If you want to demonstrate to critical thinkers that the media is lame, provide one or more direct, on-topic examples.
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Old 2nd March 2021, 12:28 AM   #1918
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I hate to beat a dead horse but... I spent all of 8 minutes perusing the articles at creativecoherance, the site with the greatest overlap of the names on Tom's list of "trusted opinion makers" (they have a whole page touting them and links to their own sites).
Here's some of it...
Nazi apologetics; masks don't help, they cause hypoxia (tell that to any OR staff or hell, just the guy in the paint room spraying a car and get laughed out of the room); and a doozy... trying to shoehorn astrology into bed with the scientific method.
Bloody hell Tom.
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Old 2nd March 2021, 12:39 AM   #1919
Mojo
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
My bingo card sits on the verge. Come on folks, just say it. You know you want to.

Sheeple! There, that's not so hard.

Suffice it to say Caroline, you have no concept what skepticism is about.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post13412623
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Old 2nd March 2021, 04:46 AM   #1920
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I made several very long-winded posts over at the Skeptic.com forum about the many pieces to the alleged Covid Plague puzzle, and how it has become, imvho, an almost religious political movement instead of a rational response to a virus.

From the beginning it was trumpeted as a a "novel" virus, as though it was totally unrelated to other common-cold corona viruses, and then the hysterical panic-porn escalated from there.
Can you post an example of this so-called 'panic porn', so we can see what you mean?
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