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Old 2nd July 2019, 05:14 AM   #201
TJM
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No wonder this place is known as the snakepit.
Pardon us because we've seen this dozens of times-

Truther starts thread touting super new evidence that'll blow the lid off this whole 9/11 thing. Truther immediately shifts to a pattern of evasiveness and starts insisting we jump through their hoops, usually by wanting to drive traffic to their preferred site.

Want to have a productive discussion of your work? Then show it.

Otherwise don't blame the snakes when your actions get you bitten on the ass.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:31 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No wonder this place is known as the snakepit.

It is indeed no wonder. Because here, we actually engage with you and argue your claims.

Try that among any group of people with any authority to actually act upon your claims, the people that you should want to convince if you want to change the status quo. Try going to insurance company investigators, law enforcement agencies, litigators, judges, academic historians, professional investigative journalists, aviation authorities, political parties' platform committees, physicists or structural engineers, and attempting to make a case in the manner you have here. You will lose their interest and attention the very first time you make an unsupported claim (like a stealth light pole cannon) or make a demonstrably false claim (like an aerodynamically impossible perpendicular flight path) or fail to adequately answer a pertinent question. They won't argue with you like we do here; they'll proceed to ignore you. Unlike here, they will be very polite about it. You will receive a very polite dismissal followed by a very polite total silence. No snakes, no pit, just a boundless empty void of non-interest.

Very likely, you already know this, because you've already tried. If you could get any traction, or even any ongoing engagement, in any of those grown-ups' venues I listed, you wouldn't be posting here.

We're not the gatekeepers guarding some threshold to influence and change. We're an attention soup kitchen far outside those gates. It's not a comfortable polite place, because the price of your meal is listening to our sermon as we try once again to explain what you're doing wrong, why you're stuck outside. Which like everyone else you want to ignore as you predictably grumble about the flavor of the soup.

Please go find another cause more worthy of your efforts. If you were to scrutinize, for example, the state of the world's fossil fuel reserves and environmental condition with the same obsessive thoroughness with which you scrutinize old photos of an irrelevant cab at the Pentagon on 9/11, I'm certain you'd discover much more important and much better-evidenced issues to concern yourself with.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:44 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No wonder this place is known as the snakepit.
Why, because evidence not suppositions are asked?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:51 AM   #204
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Here's a functioning link to Ruby's thread at the Let's Roll Forums. Haven't had time to read it yet.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:21 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
That Great Bastion of investigation and rationality.....

<drumroll>

Let's Roll Forum


Compus
Oh my gosh!
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:13 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No wonder this place is known as the snakepit.
You spread lies and offer no valid evidence.
You ignore physics, and your star witnesses, posting an impossible flight path. Have no clue why the flight path is impossible. And, you don't care.

You apologize for 19 murderers, and claim they are still alive. No clue people can have the same names.

You join a group of far out conspiracy theorists started by Fetzer. Did you research those who lead the group? Kind of like joining the Manson Family, except the only thing you murder is the Truth.

You joined the snakepit of conspiracy theorists, 9/11 Scholars Forum, and don't know you and they are spreading lies.

You are the case of "the other side being heard"; we hear lies born in ignorance.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:50 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here's a functioning link to Ruby's thread at the Let's Roll Forums. Haven't had time to read it yet.
RubyGray: In post 94 of that thread, you say this:
Originally Posted by Ruby Gray
I will go with my professional image analyst opinion that this is the same man in all images I have posted so far.
Are you a professional image analyst? If not, did you employ the services of one?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:08 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
RubyGray: In post 94 of that thread, you say this:

I would also point to the last entry (#111) in that thread (SEE HERE)

Spot the acute speculation and supposition in that post! It sums up the bulk of what rubygray has written here (and elsewhere)

Compus
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:30 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
I would also point to the last entry (#111) in that thread (SEE HERE)

Spot the acute speculation and supposition in that post! It sums up the bulk of what rubygray has written here (and elsewhere)

Compus
Wow. Someone on a video makes a hand gesture that might be made by someone saying the plane flew over the Pentagon, and another witness hasn't been tracked down but might have seen something, so these count as two positive flyover witnesses and over-rule the 100+ witness statements that all have the plane hitting the Pentagon. I think this sets a new record for asymmetric burdens of proof.

Dave
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:23 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Ruby Gray
I will go with my professional image analyst opinion that this is the same man in all images I have posted so far.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Are you a professional image analyst? If not, did you employ the services of one?

I'm curious about that statement also! Perhaps Ruby could elaborate?

Also, from that same post:-

Originally Posted by Ruby Gray
I don't expect many people to believe what I am saying...

True

Originally Posted by Ruby Gray
...or to do the hundreds of hours of scrutiny that I have...

True

Originally Posted by Ruby Gray
...that they would need to do to prove me wrong.

False!

Compus
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:35 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
No wonder this place is known as the snakepit.
Regarding Dr Goff, your mystery man

took about 4 minutes to find him

MAJ Brandon J. Goff, DO, MC, USA

https://www.usuhs.edu/faculty-staff/...off-maj-mc-usa
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:07 AM   #212
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Using beachnut's figures in Post 124

Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
I have the FDR and Radar data. Don't need witnesses. I am a qualified aircraft accident investigator who served on several investigations and was board president for one.
...
You are not qualified to use hearsay and make valid conclusions.
Got some timeline to go with this.
Did you try to see if 77 tail was visible because the terrain is higher over the dreaded official flight path.
I would have to say you failed to do any real math, geometry, and physics to go with another failed claim by you.
...
Where in the courtyard? Exactly where.
How many seconds before he heard and saw the jet-fuel fireball?
How far was he from the impact point, and why did he NOT see your flyover?
...
How high was Flight 77 when he saw the tail?
How high it the tail of 757? 44.5 feet!
4 seconds away 77 was over a 140 foot terrain, over 200 feet above the ground.
Thus our witness for impact was at 35 feet MSL,
and Flight 77's tail was at 384.5 feet MSL,
about 3200 feet away, going over 800 feet per second.
Can you do the geometry adding the Pentagon?
Can you find out exactly where Dennis was on his smoke break?
I would have left out the 5-acre stuff, it adds to the possibility he did see 77 seconds before impact since 77 did impact.
Are you going to do the math?
Got math?

My scale diagram at 1 pixel/foot, using your figures for height of the 757 tail and elevation of the Pentagon and the plane 3,200 feet from the Pentagon, is far too large to upload here.

Here is the link.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...posted-public/

An observer inside the courtyard cannot possibly see the tail of the plane at any point in its flightpath using these figures.

The plane would have had to be 330 feet higher as it flew above the Navy Annex for an observer to see its tail, even if he was at the extreme eastern side of the courtyard.

I have allowed you the observer's position at the maximum distance from the western wall of the courtyard, with the 350 foot difference in elevation that you specified.

He could not have heard the plane approaching at that speed and distance, due to the Doppler Effect.

He would have had to be 1,300 feet to the east of the western wall of the courtyard, with no intervening visual obstructions, to see the tail of the 757.
Of course, this would mean he was 350 feet to the east of the eastern face opf the Pentagon, which would be impossible.

It matters not exactly "where in the courtyard he was", as the only way that Dennis Smith could possibly have seen the tail of the jet, is if it FLEW OVER THE PENTAGON.

Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:12 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
He could not have heard the plane approaching at that speed and distance, due to the Doppler Effect.
Please explain this somewhat bizarre statement.

Dave
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:13 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Please explain this somewhat bizarre statement.

Dave
He thinks it was supersonic.
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:54 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
My scale diagram at 1 pixel/foot, using your figures for height of the 757 tail and elevation of the Pentagon and the plane 3,200 feet from the Pentagon, is far too large to upload here.

Here is the link.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...posted-public/

An observer inside the courtyard cannot possibly see the tail of the plane at any point in its flightpath using these figures.

The plane would have had to be 330 feet higher as it flew above the Navy Annex for an observer to see its tail, even if he was at the extreme eastern side of the courtyard.

I have allowed you the observer's position at the maximum distance from the western wall of the courtyard, with the 350 foot difference in elevation that you specified.

He could not have heard the plane approaching at that speed and distance, due to the Doppler Effect.

He would have had to be 1,300 feet to the east of the western wall of the courtyard, with no intervening visual obstructions, to see the tail of the 757.
Of course, this would mean he was 350 feet to the east of the eastern face opf the Pentagon, which would be impossible.

It matters not exactly "where in the courtyard he was", as the only way that Dennis Smith could possibly have seen the tail of the jet, is if it FLEW OVER THE PENTAGON.

Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
So, when it flew over the pentagon, where did it go?
Did it just disappear or did it fly off and land somewhere?
What happened to the passengers and crew on the aircraft?
How did their remains get in to the Pentagon?
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Old 4th July 2019, 04:00 AM   #216
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A very low-flying aircraft flies over The Pentagon, heading roughly towards DC, about a mile from Reagan airport and climbing hard, yet nobody noticed?

Cool story. ffs why do you bother with this bilge?
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Old 4th July 2019, 04:03 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
It matters not exactly "where in the courtyard he was", as the only way that Dennis Smith could possibly have seen the tail of the jet, is if it FLEW OVER THE PENTAGON.
It matters not exactly where in the courtyard he was; if the plane flew over the Pentagon, it would have to have flown at a very low altitude directly over Dennis Smith's head. In such a flyover the engines would have to have been run up to full power to initiate a climb, making the whole experience earth-shatteringly deafening. Yet he seems not to have noticed this at all. The only possible explanation is that it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Dave
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Old 4th July 2019, 04:19 AM   #218
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Ruby, did you read the short study report I linked to in a previous post (#189)?

Reliability of Eyewitness Reports to a Major Aviation Accident

(International Journal of Aviation, Aeronautics, and Aerospace
Volume 1 | Issue 4 Article 9 11-14-2014)

The final sentence of that document concludes thus:-

Quote:
But the current reported practice by accident investigators of placing low value to eyewitness accounts of aircraft crashes is supported by the empirical evidence.

What say you on the validity of the conclusion above?

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Old 4th July 2019, 06:48 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
Logically, virtually everything you write keeps getting more and more stupid. So stupid it burns...

The best explanation is that Dennis Smith was simply mistaken. If a 757 overflew the pentagon there would be hundreds of flyover witnesses, not just one in your bizarro world. The deafening roar of a 757 at full power at virtual rooftop level would have been so loud there would be hundreds (if not thousands of witnesses) to that deafening roar.

Why in the hell do you keep wasting everyone's time with this nonsense? First of all, based on your flight path to the building the aircraft couldn't get there due to aerodynamics and then you try to feed us this crap about a flyover that could not have happened. Next, I expect an alien abduction of the aircraft and passengers to places unknown based on the word of some drunk on the mall who witnessed it in his sleep.

Lady, no one in this snake pit is buying your nonsense. You need to go back among the idiots from whence you came to sell this load of BS. You're nothing but a "chew toy" here.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:21 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
My scale diagram at 1 pixel/foot, using your figures for height of the 757 tail and elevation of the Pentagon and the plane 3,200 feet from the Pentagon, is far too large to upload here.

Here is the link.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...posted-public/

An observer inside the courtyard cannot possibly see the tail of the plane at any point in its flightpath using these figures.

The plane would have had to be 330 feet higher as it flew above the Navy Annex for an observer to see its tail, even if he was at the extreme eastern side of the courtyard.

I have allowed you the observer's position at the maximum distance from the western wall of the courtyard, with the 350 foot difference in elevation that you specified.

He could not have heard the plane approaching at that speed and distance, due to the Doppler Effect.

He would have had to be 1,300 feet to the east of the western wall of the courtyard, with no intervening visual obstructions, to see the tail of the 757.
Of course, this would mean he was 350 feet to the east of the eastern face opf the Pentagon, which would be impossible.

It matters not exactly "where in the courtyard he was", as the only way that Dennis Smith could possibly have seen the tail of the jet, is if it FLEW OVER THE PENTAGON.

Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
Kind of sad, because he would not see the tail, he would see the entire body of 77 if he is a flyover witness. Plus all those in the courtyard would see a 757 full throttle over the Pentagon.

Plus you forgot he was ~37 feet MSL. But you don't know the elevation of the courtyard, you left out details. Plus the tail would be higher, bet you don't know why. It is similar to the fact your Flight Path would require over 80 degrees of bank right up to the Pentagon, and the planes wing tip would be in the ground before it was able to level off and complete a pull up from ground level to over the Pentagon, an impossible act. You don't understand flying, and left out the math.

See the tail? He would see the bottom of Flight 77. Big fail for your sick fantasy world. Like Fetzer, you are saying the passengers who died at the hands of terrorists, did not. Sick stuff based on your ignorance of the FDR, Radar, DNA, FBI, NTSB, ATC, FAA, Norad, and more.

You left off angles and all the math - show your work.

Nobody in the courtyard saw a giant 757 fly over them at Pentagon roof level.

Don't panic, but the tower at DCA is close enough to see a flyover, and they had 77 on Radar and watched 77 approach.

How do you ignore ATC seeing 77 on Radar? DId you miss the transcripts of ATC, which is real evidence, vs, your made up fantasy flyover?

Sorry you are not in a fantasy forum, read the title You can't post this dribble in any other section, you are posting failed conspiracy theories in the sub-forum titled conspiracy theories. At other forums the members are also paranoid conspiracy theorists who believe in your lies, and praise the fantasy claims.

Dopple effect? You have no clue what that is. You hear a jet because of sound travels in air, ~1100 fps, ~300 fps faster than 77.

Please draw how he saw the tail on a flyover, and not the entire jet bottom. How did he see a flyover tail, and not the entire plane? Did he see the tail, which part, the Vertical Stab, or Horizontal Stab, or the Rudder, or the Elevator? Which part did he see? Or parts?
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:05 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
My scale diagram at 1 pixel/foot, using your figures for height of the 757 tail and elevation of the Pentagon and the plane 3,200 feet from the Pentagon, is far too large to upload here.

Here is the link.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148165...posted-public/

An observer inside the courtyard cannot possibly see the tail of the plane at any point in its flightpath using these figures.

The plane would have had to be 330 feet higher as it flew above the Navy Annex for an observer to see its tail, even if he was at the extreme eastern side of the courtyard.

I have allowed you the observer's position at the maximum distance from the western wall of the courtyard, with the 350 foot difference in elevation that you specified.

He could not have heard the plane approaching at that speed and distance, due to the Doppler Effect.

He would have had to be 1,300 feet to the east of the western wall of the courtyard, with no intervening visual obstructions, to see the tail of the 757.
Of course, this would mean he was 350 feet to the east of the eastern face opf the Pentagon, which would be impossible.

It matters not exactly "where in the courtyard he was", as the only way that Dennis Smith could possibly have seen the tail of the jet, is if it FLEW OVER THE PENTAGON.

Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
I was not aware that some still argue a northside approach. How many witnesses to a southside approach would have to be lying for this to be true?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:08 PM   #222
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Please name the Southside witnesses.

Also, kindly include signed maps with their locations plotted in, and their sketches of the flightpath as they witnessed it from their positions, and quote their statements made both on or near 9/11, as well as transcriptions of any interviews given since.

Independent video footage and timestamped photographs of these eye witnesses taken within 5 - 10 minutes of impact at those locations would be helpful, even definitýve and inarguable.

I have been looking for these references, with no joy.

Apart from Mike Walter, who stated by midday on 9/11 that he witnessed the plane hit Light Pole #1 on top of the bridge, and that he witnessed the impact - but retracted his story within hours - and has told a variety of conflicting tales ever since.

Also Peter Kopf, whose account to Jeff Hill was totally incoherent.
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:11 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
Ruby, did you read the short study report I linked to in a previous post (#189)?

Reliability of Eyewitness Reports to a Major Aviation Accident

(International Journal of Aviation, Aeronautics, and Aerospace
Volume 1 | Issue 4 Article 9 11-14-2014)

The final sentence of that document concludes thus:-
...
What say you on the validity of the conclusion above?

Compus
Are you calling Dennis Smith a liar, then?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:15 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Logically, virtually everything you write keeps getting more and more stupid. So stupid it burns...

The best explanation is that Dennis Smith was simply mistaken. If a 757 overflew the pentagon there would be hundreds of flyover witnesses, not just one in your bizarro world. The deafening roar of a 757 at full power at virtual rooftop level would have been so loud there would be hundreds (if not thousands of witnesses) to that deafening roar.

Why in the hell do you keep wasting everyone's time with this nonsense? First of all, based on your flight path to the building the aircraft couldn't get there due to aerodynamics and then you try to feed us this crap about a flyover that could not have happened. Next, I expect an alien abduction of the aircraft and passengers to places unknown based on the word of some drunk on the mall who witnessed it in his sleep.

Lady, no one in this snake pit is buying your nonsense. You need to go back among the idiots from whence you came to sell this load of BS. You're nothing but a "chew toy" here.
Then why are you vipers so all-fired determined to scoff, ridicule, obfuscate, and misrepresent everything I write?

If nobody cares, why are so many interested?

Is that not oxymoronic?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:16 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Please name the Southside witnesses.

Also, kindly include signed maps with their locations plotted in, and their sketches of the flightpath as they witnessed it from their positions, and quote their statements made both on or near 9/11, as well as transcriptions of any interviews given since.

Independent video footage and timestamped photographs of these eye witnesses taken within 5 - 10 minutes of impact at those locations would be helpful, even definitýve and inarguable.

I have been looking for these references, with no joy.

Apart from Mike Walter, who stated by midday on 9/11 that he witnessed the plane hit Light Pole #1 on top of the bridge, and that he witnessed the impact - but retracted his story within hours - and has told a variety of conflicting tales ever since.

Also Peter Kopf, whose account to Jeff Hill was totally incoherent.
Wrong again, FDR proves the flight path.

You have no northside witnesses, they are all pointing to the south route.

Your flight path is impossible you failed to realize no one saw ~80 degrees of bank.

The CIT witnesses on video are pointing to the real flight path, as proved with the FDR, Radar, and the DNA in the Pentagon from 77 Passengers.

You make up lies to apologize for terrorists.

You lie about the USA military, making up an insane claim of a pole cannon.

over 100 witnesses saw 77 hit the Pentagon.

OOPS, you were debunked long ago - https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7li...videncesummary

Debunked and no clue you are spreading lies.
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7li...gonattackpage2
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:19 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Then why are you vipers so all-fired determined to scoff, ridicule, obfuscate, and misrepresent everything I write?

If nobody cares, why are so many interested?

Is that not oxymoronic?
Because you mock the murder of thousands with lies about 9/11. Ignoring the FDR, Radar (from more than four independent sites), DNA, and more.

You are spreading lies and ignore evidence. The dumbest idea is the pole cannon.

When will you debunk the DNA? Radar? FDR?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:21 PM   #227
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Say rubygray, I've had a question about this question vis a vis this NoC Vs SoC approach that seems to be the linchpin of the controversy:

When you have witnesses on either side of CITGO who agree that a great ******* Boeing 757 crashed into the pentagon, not flying over it, then what's your point?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:21 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Are you calling Dennis Smith a liar, then?
Which part of the tail did he see? If he is a flyover witness in the courtyard then we would see the bottom of 77, not the tail.

Did he see the vertical fin, or the elevator? Rudder, or Horizontal stab?

How do you know he was really in the courtyard? Why did all the people not see your fantasy flyover?

Why do you lie about 9/11? Hate the USA, or what?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:26 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
... Logically, whether Dennis Smith knew it or not, this makes Dennis Smith a FLYOVER WITNESS.
You suffer a complete loss of logic. And you prove it everytime you post lies.

https://coub.com/view/ft0tm

oops, he can't see the tail if he is a Flyover Witness - darn, you just debunked your own witness.

Fantasy is easy, and you have spent way too much time perfecting it. You lie about the military with the pole cannon.

Which part of the tail did he see? Why can't you answer questions?

Your flight path requires over 80 degrees of bank, why did you fail?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:26 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Please explain this somewhat bizarre statement.

Dave
As beachnut stated, sound travels at 1100 fps through air, give or take a few feet dependent on altitude, air pressure, etc.

I used beachnut's own figures for altitude of the terrain + tail of the jet, and distances (which as he has demonstrated, he does not even begin to comprehend).

I placed the jet at 3200 feet from the western face of the building, and the observer at the farthest opposite side of the courtyard, another 900 feet away to the east.
A total of 4,300 feet.

It would take very nearly 4 seconds for the sound of the plane to reach the observer from that distance.

This means that the observer could not hear a plane AT 4,300 FEET DISTANCE, until 4 seconds later.

This is the DOPPLER EFFECT.

Not, as beachnut put it, the "Dopple effect".
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:31 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
As beachnut stated, sound travels at 1100 fps through air, give or take a few feet dependent on altitude, air pressure, etc.

I used beachnut's own figures for altitude of the terrain + tail of the jet, and distances (which as he has demonstrated, he does not even begin to comprehend).

I placed the jet at 3200 feet from the western face of the building, and the observer at the farthest opposite side of the courtyard, another 900 feet away to the east.
A total of 4,300 feet.

It would take very nearly 4 seconds for the sound of the plane to reach the observer from that distance.

This means that the observer could not hear a plane AT 4,300 FEET DISTANCE, until 4 seconds later.

This is the DOPPLER EFFECT.

Not, as beachnut put it, the "Dopple effect".
That is because it is not the Doppler Effect either. It is sound, you don't understand the doppler effect.

Plus I gave you numbers so you could expose the next lie, making Smith a Flyover Witness. And you failed to get Smith to explain which part of the tail he saw.

Why did you make up a fake flight path with over 80 degrees of bank? IS this like the doppler effect?
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:34 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Which part of the tail did he see? If he is a flyover witness in the courtyard then we would see the bottom of 77, not the tail.

Did he see the vertical fin, or the elevator? Rudder, or Horizontal stab?

How do you know he was really in the courtyard? Why did all the people not see your fantasy flyover?

Why do you lie about 9/11? Hate the USA, or what?
YOU are the one who specified the altitudes, distance from the impact site, etc.

It makes no difference which part of the tail he thought he saw.

If the jet tail was 3,200 feet away from the impact site, and the observer was as far to the east of the courtyard as he could be, then every part of that tail would be hundreds of feet below his line of sight, the whole length of its descentt between that location and impact hole.

Don't try to change the goalposts.

This is YOUR argument.

YOU said he would easily be able to see the tail at that height AGL and distance from the Pentagon.

But clearly, you were wrong.

COMPUTER SAYS NO!!!
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:44 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
That is because it is not the Doppler Effect either. It is sound, you don't understand the doppler effect.

Plus I gave you numbers so you could expose the next lie, making Smith a Flyover Witness. And you failed to get Smith to explain which part of the tail he saw.

Why did you make up a fake flight path with over 80 degrees of bank? IS this like the doppler effect?
I just explained the Doppler Effect as simply for you as I could.

I used YOUR numbers in my scale diagram, which prove either that you don't know as much as everyone here imagines you do, or that you are accusing Dennis Smith of being a liar.

It is not I who invented that ludicrous dog-legged straw man "northside" Flight Path, but desperadoes like Frank Legge, David Chandler and yourself.

The moderate right bank described by so many witnesses is perfectly possible. Especially at a velocity lower than the OFT specifies.

It is only because your ilk fraudulently misappropriated the clear testimonies of excellent, credible witnesses (They were there; you were not), that you are forced to include those sudden extra banks in your version - which, as EVERYBODY KNOWS, makes that Flight Path impossible.

Try comparing apples with apples, if you want intelligent honest logical people to take you seriously.
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:45 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Because you mock the murder of thousands with lies about 9/11. Ignoring the FDR, Radar (from more than four independent sites), DNA, and more.

You are spreading lies and ignore evidence. The dumbest idea is the pole cannon.

When will you debunk the DNA? Radar? FDR?
"POLE CANNON" was never a phrase coined by me.
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:48 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
... He could not have heard the plane approaching at that speed and distance, due to the Doppler Effect. ...
Where did you get this from?
Not true, Smith would hear 77 engines before 77 impacted.

What he could see is part the plane, his "tail" section, parts of 77 ejected from the impact area before he hears the plane impact noise.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
YOU are the one who specified the altitudes, distance from the impact site, etc.

It makes no difference which part of the tail he thought he saw.

If the jet tail was 3,200 feet away from the impact site, and the observer was as far to the east of the courtyard as he could be, then every part of that tail would be hundreds of feet below his line of sight, the whole length of its descentt between that location and impact hole.

Don't try to change the goalposts.

This is YOUR argument.

YOU said he would easily be able to see the tail at that height AGL and distance from the Pentagon.

But clearly, you were wrong.

COMPUTER SAYS NO!!!
Nope, I never said he saw the tail, you did. Andy ou can't specify which part of the tail he saw, thus you have nothing. Vert stab, or horizontal stab? Rudder of elevator. If he is a flyover witness, he would see the bottom of 77. He only saw the tail, you took my numbers and proved he can't see it?

I never said he could, I asked you if he could. oops

Do you want to fix your doppler effect? Too bad you don't get points for my misspelled words.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:00 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
"POLE CANNON" was never a phrase coined by me.
Oh, what did the military use, as we promised to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, to shoot the pole?

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
... when a prefabricated pole was shot through his windshield by military operatives. ...
What what used? for your "pole cannon". Was it a rocket pole, or a cruise missile used to shoot it?

You lie about the military, we don't do that. Better luck with Bigfoot, and UFOs.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:03 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
When you have witnesses on either side of CITGO who agree that a great ******* Boeing 757 crashed into the pentagon, not flying over it, then what's your point?
*cough*
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:25 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Say rubygray, I've had a question about this question vis a vis this NoC Vs SoC approach that seems to be the linchpin of the controversy:

When you have witnesses on either side of CITGO who agree that a great ******* Boeing 757 crashed into the pentagon, not flying over it, then what's your point?
That is the conundrum you need to work out for yourself.

Either many witnesses were lying, or mistaken, or exaggerating,, or many people have misconstrued their testimonies to support the Southside Flight Path.
It's your choice what you believe.

Sgt Chadwick Brooks stated,
"Anything is possible"
when presented with the suggestion that he may have been deceived by a psy-op.

Sgt William Lagasse stated,
"Did I see what the plane did when it got to the Pentagon? NO!

Robert Turcios stated that he could not see the actual impact, because the impact site was lower than the ascending Route 27 between him and the Pentagon.

"MY VIEW WAS ... I COULD NOT TOTALLY SEE WHEN IT HIT THE PENTAGON. ALL I SAW WAS IT HEADED STRAIGHT TO IT. AND AH ... THEN THE BIG EXPLOSION, JUST THE FIREBQLL, AND LOTS OF SMOKE." National Security Alert, 23:10.

He also testified that the plane
"LIFTED UP A LITTLE BIT TO GET OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE BRIDGE HERE ... WHERE YOU SEE THAT DO NOT ENTER SIGN". National Security Alert, 22:40.

But Turcios never said the plane dropped back down again to be low and level with the ground in the 220 yards between the overhead sign and the wall, as seen on the Gatecam videos.

At the claimed speed the jet was flying, it would have covered this distance across the highway and the lawn in just 3/4 of a second.

Obviously, a jet speeding at VNE could not possibly have made this manoeuvre.
Any pilot knows that.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:27 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
I just explained the Doppler Effect as simply for you as I could.

I used YOUR numbers in my scale diagram, which prove either that you don't know as much as everyone here imagines you do, or that you are accusing Dennis Smith of being a liar.

It is not I who invented that ludicrous dog-legged straw man "northside" Flight Path, but desperadoes like Frank Legge, David Chandler and yourself.

The moderate right bank described by so many witnesses is perfectly possible. Especially at a velocity lower than the OFT specifies.

It is only because your ilk fraudulently misappropriated the clear testimonies of excellent, credible witnesses (They were there; you were not), that you are forced to include those sudden extra banks in your version - which, as EVERYBODY KNOWS, makes that Flight Path impossible.

Try comparing apples with apples, if you want intelligent honest logical people to take you seriously.
Nope, you don't understand doppler, except for spelling it.

Nope, you claim Smith could not see the tail, thus you are calling him a liar. Did he say it, or was it an interpretation of a reporter?


You posted a flight path that was impossible, and you don't have one? Where is your flight path?

Where is your flight path for your fantasy?

BTW, CIT was stuck with the impossible flight path because their witnesses have 77 south of the Pike, and to make NoC, all paths become impossible - a fact you ignore, yet you did math to prove Smith did not see the tail.

How do you know he did not see parts ejected over the roof as his "tail"? You don't', thus you don't have a valid flyover witness.

FDR!

Nope, there was no bank angle seen by witnesses to make your NoC possible, and the most bank was not moderate, that is a new lie by you.

Max bank on the final seconds where your witnesses point south, Less than 6 degrees. Darn, you are debunked.

6 degrees on a large plane, 757, looks big, but it is not moderate. Debunked, and another lie, moderate.


You ignore the FDR, no one takes you serious - much your project, do you...

Yes, it is possible to see a tail from 6,000 feet, a fact, if you have a view.

But Smith, if in the courtyard, would see the entire bottom of 77. Debunked by logic.

FDR debunks you. Thus you are calling the FAA, ATC, NTSB, the military, FBI, local police, fire department, and more liars.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:34 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Wrong again, FDR proves the flight path.

You have no northside witnesses, they are all pointing to the south route.

Your flight path is impossible you failed to realize no one saw ~80 degrees of bank.

The CIT witnesses on video are pointing to the real flight path, as proved with the FDR, Radar, and the DNA in the Pentagon from 77 Passengers.

You make up lies to apologize for terrorists.

You lie about the USA military, making up an insane claim of a pole cannon.

over 100 witnesses saw 77 hit the Pentagon.
Your rantings are so dementedly, pointlessly repetitive and vacuous.

Like I said, please name, quote and reference your "Southside eyewitnesses" with their locations plotted on overhead maps, the Flight Paths they witnessed drawn in and signed and dated by their own hands in indelible ink, while recorded on video.

Also include photos and videos of them in those positions within 10 minutes post impact.
And add in their witness statements recorded by official agencies immediately after 9/11.
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