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Old 8th July 2019, 11:10 AM   #281
The Common Potato
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If the van was moving through windows 1 and 2, but disappeared before you saw it in window 3, and you simultaneously heard, saw and felt a giant explosion, then the only logical conclusion is that the van flew over your home.
And I was flying it!!! Mwhhahahahaha.
10^9 apologies to Beachnut, Reheat etc. I was wacked on the head 30 years ago and am not allowed to drive, let alone fly. Simming is my escape. FWIW, a school mate is a current BA A380 captain (lucky so and so).
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:12 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
That is not what I am saying here.
I point out that when a sound is made 4,300 feet away, it is going to take 4 seconds to reach the observer. The sound made at that point will not alert the observer to look for the object in that position. By the time the noise is heard, the plane has already moved much further. The sound of the approaching plane increases in pitch; the sound of the departing plane decreases in pitch.

The point is that an observer in the courtyard could not see the tail of the plane approaching on the official trajectory. He could not see the top, the underside, the back, the front. The tail of the plane is hundreds of feet below the observer's field of view at 3,200 feet from the wall of the Pentagon.

The only way he could have seen the plane is if it was hundreds of feet higher, much too high to hit the Pentagon.

If Dennis Smith was correct, that he did see the tail of the plane, then the plane cannot have hit the Pentagon.
If the plane is coming straight at you, the sound will be coming from the same direction as the plane. Even if it's coming from a slight angle, hearing the sound will likely cause you to look in the right direction to see the plane.
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Old 10th July 2019, 10:22 AM   #283
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It's almost as if he had never heard an aircraft.
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:11 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's almost as if he had never heard an aircraft.
You must mean rubygray, right?
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:47 PM   #285
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indeed
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:40 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Please name, quote and reference your "witnesses who saw the cab being transported from beside the cemetery at 9:41 a.m, to the bridge scene by 9:45 a.m. and the decoy cab departing the scene just as the tow truck arrived" with their locations plotted on overhead maps, the cab and tow truck movements they witnessed drawn in and signed and dated by their own hands in indelible ink, while recorded on video.
Did you believe CIT when they had their witnesses do this?

No?

So why ask?
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:53 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Did you believe CIT when they had their witnesses do this?

No?

So why ask?
Their claims were ultimately rejected when the evidence proved them wrong, so now would be a good time for you to provide evidence of witnesses who saw the cab being transported from beside the cemetery at 9:41 a.m, to the bridge scene by 9:45 a.m. and the decoy cab departing the scene just as the tow truck arrived.

That's why we ask.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:40 AM   #288
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They're just not making truthers from the sterner stuff any longer. I think Ruby's a little shell-shocked. Not quite the same as dealing with a handful of "Attagirl!" posters on conspiracy forums, is it?

Real Pilots. Actual experience in the field. Verified data.

Kinda trumps "but it just seems to me from this angle...", doesn't it?

Well done, Reheat and Beachnut! I'm pleased to see that the level of tolerance for bull feces is as strong as it has ever been.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:45 AM   #289
rubygray
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Many witnesses did not hear the aircraft approach

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's almost as if he had never heard an aircraft.
Well, many witnesses outside of the Pentagon testified that they did not hear the approaching plane until it was almost level with them, or even passing over their heads.

Witnesses at the Arlington National Cemetery described the plane as "GLIDING IN" before it passed the Navy Annex, then "poured the coals to it".


Sergeant William Lagasse was standing at the northern side of the Citgo gas station when he saw the plane almost directly north of him, perhaps a couple of hundred feet away. He did not hear it before he saw it.


Father Stephen McGraw was stationary in traffic on Route 27 opposite the Heliport when he "had a sensation of" the plane flying across his car. He did not hear it approach before this.



Firefighters MARK SKIPPER and ALAN WALLACE were standing beside the Heliport Tower, in front of the Pentagon wall, when they spotted the plane coming towards them, about 1.5 seconds before the impact. They did not hear its approach before they saw it.

]


As none of these witnesses, and more, heard the plane approaching for more than 1.5 seconds, although they were in a direct line with the plane's flight path, and its sound was unobstructed by any intervening physical structures …

then how could DENNIS SMITH possibly have heard the plane approaching for 3 to 4 seconds, when he was standing at ground level below the 77 foot high roof of the Pentagon, far to the east of the impact site with over 600 feet of the structure shielding him from sight and sound of the plane?


It is just not possible.

Dennis Smith was either mistaken, or deliberately lying.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:01 AM   #290
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PETER KOPF INTERVIEW with JEFF HILL Transcript

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have just listened to that interivew, and it was perfectly coherent to me.
I can help you, if you want. Please let me know which parts you're having trouble with, and I'll explain it to you.
He's quite clear what he saw, which was a plane hitting the Pentagon.
http://checktheevidencecom.ipage.com...Jan%202011.mp3
If you think that gibberish excuse for an interview passes for genuine eyewitness testimony, then it is understandable why you are so confused.

I post the entire transcript of Jeff Hill's "interview" with Peter Kopf here.

Note how the interviewee cunningly sidesteps the issue of providing any actual data about the flightpath of the plane, and whether he saw the lightpoles being knocked down, from his vantage point on top of the bridge.
And Jeff Hill does not even notice.


Peter.

Hi Peter. My name's Jeffrey Hill. I'm sorry to bother you but uh I was just reading some stuff on the internet about you. About how you were near the Pentagon on the road on 9-11.

Yeeahup.

And I was just wondering like I’m sure you must know about all the conspiracy theories out there about ...

Yuh yuh yuh the whole thing about that guy who was doing a documentary and all that.

Exactly. And I was wondering like did you see the plane hit with your own eyes?

[Laughs] YEAUH! I was sitting ON TOP OF THE BRIDGE watching the whole thing.

Did you happen to see it hit any light poles on its way in?

[CHOMPING] You know I was a little bit I was a little bit freaked out, me and my me and my um car pool guy? We were basically just screaming at the top of our lungs as the thing was whizzing by us but I distinctly remember it was it was so weird because I was talking to my wife on the phone and she was telling me about what just happened up in New York.
Yeah yeah yeah.

We were just sitting in traffic like any other day like going to work. And I uh I was on the phone to her and we both hear this BRRRR and it was just like seeing an elephant like in your bathroom. Like an American Airlines. And the reason I remember I got a very good friend of mine she flies for American. And it you know was like the thought was one and the same. It was like holy xxxx what if Jean is on this flight, you know, it, and it, just watching the thing you know screaming what the and in the car going what the xxxx.

Yeah like I can imagine like something out of a action movie or something you'd never expect in reality I guess.

Right right! It was it was it was man it was really bizarre I mean really really bizarre.

But I mean yeah it seems like it doesn't matter how many people say they saw the plane hit it somehow these guys can turn it into they were deceived or they're liars or they're agents. You're probably called an agent because you work for USATODAY.

Yeah right ha ha.

No matter what like they say the plane flew over the Pentagon and I’ve like never been to Washington or anything. I’ve only just seen the area like ...

I can tell ya without the even a sliver of doubt that what I saw is what I saw man. [Snort] Believe me.

Yeah and like say ...

It was wild. You know you know you know how they say some of your senses shut down when they see something totally freaky?

Yeah yeah

You know we were watching it and we're watching it go into the Pentagon and expl … but it's like my hearing went out the door for a little while. Like I couldn't hear anything. Like 15 seconds or so. I think I was just like overloaded, you know what I mean.

Yeah well like yeah I would imagine like most people who saw something like that would like just freeze up in the moment or something.

Yeah well like it was pretty bizarre but like you know well then it was total bedlam on the on the on the road. Some people were jump getting out of their cars. Some people were trying to turn their car round go the other way on on on the ramp I mean it was just bizarre.

It seems like the main focus is on whether the plane came in North of the Citgo or South of the Citgo. And if you know I guess some people like I don't know 10 years later or something or whatever how long you talk to them I mean to me it seems like an insigifricant [sic] detail I mean I don't think anybody was focussing on whether the plane was over there or over here or focussed on There's a big damn Boeing 757 flying and I see it hit the Pentagon but I wasn't you know, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It just seems ...

I mean I was in I was in pretty … dead … right there in front of it. I mean if you look at a map where the um where the Exit Ramp, I was sitting at the highest part of the Exit Ramp just kind of looking down at the you know the USATODAY is not too far from there. It was just a little turnoff and you go down but I mean we had pretty clear vision.

So there's no trees blocking your view of the Pentagon or anything? Like they say this Joel Shumer [sic] he couldn't have seen it or something cause the trees would have blocked his view or …

Well it's not like there's it's not like there's a bunch of frickin' forest there [hearty chuckle] it's just a couple of roads and then bam it's just the Pentagon, it's not you know [sniff] it wasn't hidden by vegetation or anything no. Yeah I’ve heard all the the crap too but just you know it's just it I don't even know why they bother with that, it's just I mean good lord I was right there.

Yeah well it seems as though there are people out there that believe that ah their story and their video and I dunno it's just it's I dunno I don't know how to try and say you guys are liars man, they're either lying or they're just so full ...

Everybody loves a good yarn I guess, I don't know, but [CHOMPING DONUT] I saw what I saw you know, it was definitely an airplane.

And it definitely hit the Pentagon.

Oh yeeaauuhh. Oh, listen right after it right after it hit, in the … confusion that ensued afterwards, I told my car pool buddy, I said Go go go, we were just kind of weaving in between stopped cars and we were literally drove you know half the wreckage still on part part pieces on the road and xxxx and … see the … part the fuselage in in the … freaking … ah … Pentagon like it was crazy. It wasn't imagination ha ha believe me. There was no imagination about it.

Yeah well like I say I’m sorry to bother you but I just want to be able to talk to people myself and see what they have to say because there's still much confusion out there it's just can't believe what those guys say it just seems like they're trying to cause confusion or something.

Yuh [CHOMPING] I don't know what their motive is but I saw what I saw. It was no mistaking it.

Yeah well ok thank you for talking to me.

Sure!

Take care. Bye bye.

Bye.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:20 AM   #291
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FULL LIST OF SOUTHSIDE FLIGHTPATH WITNESSES

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I mean, if you were willing to put forth such a bold theory, I was hoping you would have most of that information in your own folder.
You want me to name the Southside Flightpath witnesses.

I just did already. I gave you the entire list of witnesses recorded as stating that the plane flew across the bridge.

PETER KOPF
(See Transcript above.)

MIKE WALTER
(See Transcript below)

Mike Walter was interviewed on camera within an hour or so of the impact, when he stated that he saw the plane hit Lightpole Number 1, and at least one more.

However, when the interviewer replied that they had heard the lightpole/s hit a taxi cab, Mike Walter stuttered and stammered, and admitted he had NOT seen this.

The following day on TV, Walter admitted that he had NOT witnessed the impact which he claimed to have witnessed the previous day, due to the trees blocking his view.

At least he told the truth twice here.

He did NOT see the plane flying across the bridge, knocking down a lightpole/s which hit the taxi, and he did NOT see the plane hit the Pentagon.

Over several years, he morphed and embellished his story. He again claimed to have seen the plane impacting the Pentagon, and claimed that its wings "FOLDED BACK" so that it could fit into that small hole.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:34 AM   #292
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MIKE WALTER ADMITS NOT SEEING LIGHTPOLE HIT TAXI ON BRIDGE Transcript

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdxzqqZ3e2s

"911 The Pentagon Witnesses (Part 1 of 4)"


9LIVE TV Interview


GORDON :
Yeah Mike, I'm here with a familiar face, MIKE WALTER of THE USA TODAY. Mike, you ACTUALLY SAW THIS HAPPEN. Tell us what you saw.

Mike Walter :
I DID INDEED Gordon. You know what, I you know like everyone else I was listening to the radio with the accounts of what was going on in New York. I was listening to President Bush and we were stuck in traffic. We were coming off the EXIT here. And I looked up and I saw this American Airlines jet coming in very low.

And I watched it and it and IT CLIPPED … I don't know if you can see it over here – but IT CLIPPED THIS POLE, slammed right into the building, huge explosion, then utter pandemonium as you might imagine. I mean, everybody was screaming, “Oh my god”. People started saying, “We've got to turn around. They hit the Pentagon.” A frantic woman turned her car around, started weaving her way out. I got out of my car and went over here.

We could see ah military personnel bringing tarps out and setting up like a triage unit, a number of stretchers, ah as they you know they the fire engines just sirens sirens sirens you know as they arrived they started to hit the building with the ah with the foam and actually were doing a pretty good job and then we saw the the ah triage people with the stretchers running, spreading over here, but at that point they moved us back and of course there was the threat of another plane coming here at that time but I don't know what's happened with that.

GORDON :
Now you're sure it was an American Airlines plane.

Mike Walter :
I w... it w... you know we were stuck in traffic, could not move. I could see the big AA, silver jet itself. I thought it was a 737 but I may be mistaken there. But there is no doubt about it. It was American Airlines slammed right into the building. And there was no doubt about it, whoever was piloting that plane was aiming for the Pentagon.

GORDON :
And we do know they hit a taxi cab. The plane hit a taxi cab up here on the bridge, on the overpass.

Mike Walter :
I DIDN’T ... I DIDN’T KNOW THAT. I DID NOT SEE … I saw the ball of fire, yeah, and I SAW IT CLIP THE … THESE AH POLES, and and ah the billowing smoke, the grey column of smoke, and … and the pandemonium.”


11:25
… slammed right into the building over here, HUGE explosion … (break in video)

GORDON:
Now you're sure it was an American Airlines plane?

Mike Walter:
I we you know we were stuck in traffic, could not move, I could see the big AA, the silver jet itself, I thought it was a 737, I may be mistaken there, but there was no doubt about it, it was an American Airlines slammed right into the building. AND there was NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, whoever was piloting that plane, was aiming for the Pentagon.

I saw the ball of fire ...

GORDON:
It clipped it?


Mike Walter :
Yeah, and I SAW IT CLIP THESE AH POLES, and then the the billowing smoke, the great column of smoke.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:38 AM   #293
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MIKE WALTER'S TALL STORIES

If Mike Walter was close enough to see the plane hitting the lightpoles on top of the bridge, then how could he have missed the pole hitting the taxi?

Which lie was true?

Did he SEE the plane fly across the bridge?

Did he SEE the plane hit the lightpoles?

Did he SEE the plane hit the Pentagon?

Did the row of trees obstruct his view so that he could NOT SEE the plane hit the Pentagon?

Did the wings of the plane FOLD BACK so that the plane could fly into the Pentagon?


Last edited by rubygray; 17th July 2019 at 02:57 AM. Reason: Add photo
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:58 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Well, many witnesses outside of the Pentagon testified that they did not hear the approaching plane until it was almost level with them, or even passing over their heads.

Witnesses at the Arlington National Cemetery described the plane as "GLIDING IN" before it passed the Navy Annex, then "poured the coals to it".


Sergeant William Lagasse was standing at the northern side of the Citgo gas station when he saw the plane almost directly north of him, perhaps a couple of hundred feet away. He did not hear it before he saw it.


Father Stephen McGraw was stationary in traffic on Route 27 opposite the Heliport when he "had a sensation of" the plane flying across his car. He did not hear it approach before this.



Firefighters MARK SKIPPER and ALAN WALLACE were standing beside the Heliport Tower, in front of the Pentagon wall, when they spotted the plane coming towards them, about 1.5 seconds before the impact. They did not hear its approach before they saw it.



As none of these witnesses, and more, heard the plane approaching for more than 1.5 seconds, although they were in a direct line with the plane's flight path, and its sound was unobstructed by any intervening physical structures …

then how could DENNIS SMITH possibly have heard the plane approaching for 3 to 4 seconds, when he was standing at ground level below the 77 foot high roof of the Pentagon, far to the east of the impact site with over 600 feet of the structure shielding him from sight and sound of the plane?


It is just not possible.

Dennis Smith was either mistaken, or deliberately lying.
General aircraft noise near an airport won't be something you are conscious of until it becomes unusual.
Ask anyone that lives near a busy airport.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:00 AM   #295
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What happened to the passengers and crew?
Why would the wings 'fold back'?
Where is the aircraft now?
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:15 AM   #296
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Reliability of Eyewitness Reports to a Major Aviation Accident

Originally Posted by CompusMentus View Post
Ruby, did you read the short study report I linked to in a previous post (#189)?

Reliability of Eyewitness Reports to a Major Aviation Accident

(International Journal of Aviation, Aeronautics, and Aerospace
Volume 1 | Issue 4 Article 9 11-14-2014)

The final sentence of that document concludes thus:-

...

What say you on the validity of the conclusion above?

Compus
Thanks for the link.
Yes, I did read this.

I found this statement to be particularly interesting.

"Decades of experience have led aviation crash investigators to discount eyewitness accounts, and instead rely on flight recorders, radar recordings and physical evidence to determine cause. There are, however, no systematic published studies of aviation crash eyewitness accounts to validate investigators beliefs. This is due in part to the problems of creating a controlled experiment."

Also interesting was the very scientific manner in which the eyewitnesses in this study were located, interviewed and recorded.

"Materials and Methods

"Recording witness statements was earnest work due to the number of fatalities and the immediate lack of a clear cause. Interviews were undertaken by a large number of NTSB, local police and FBI agents. Using the NTSB Witness Group Factual Report (Schiada, 2002) as a model, we created an Excel spreadsheet containing all 354 witness summaries. While there are considerable original records of the interviews, it was not recorded how the questions were posed, or what other reports (media/social) may have influenced the witness. Our dataset used only the original consensus NTSB Witness Group interpretation of each witness’s testimony.

"Our goal in constructing a dataset to analyze was to have the highest likelihood of finding reliability. By removing obvious outliers and controlling for geographic position we stood the best chance of discovering patterns. And if no patterns are found in this clean dataset, we strengthen the hypothesis that data from eyewitness reports are unreliable. We removed witnesses that were moving on boats, trains, planes or whose position was otherwise uncertain. We also removed witnesses who were many kilometers from the crash site, resulting in a dataset containing 239 Belle Harbor witnesses (defined as all ground witness between 149th Street and 108th Street). Coding the witness location into the dataset would allow us to control for position relative to the crash. We determined the geographic coordinates of the Belle Harbor witnesses using the information reported in the NTSB Appendixes A and B (street address or textual description of location) in combination with an examination of Google Earth and Google Street View. The resulting Keyhole Markup Language (KML) file is rendered as figure 2 using the USGS National Map Viewer. Location was initially coded into the spreadsheet using a city-block grid centered on the crash site at 131st Street and Newport Avenue. We then performed a matrix rotation, giving us witness location using Cartesian coordinates with origin at main crash site, abscissa as position left or right of aircraft track, and ordinate as position along aircraft track. We also converted the Cartesian coordinates into polar coordinates for analysis based on distance from the crash site. The data were now in a useful format to allow us to perform a series of statistical measures on the witness statements. "

Unfortunately, such parameters were not applied at the Pentagon on 9/11.

This has led to the very subjective, ambiguous and vacuous bank of eyewitness testimony from the Pentagon, with commentators from every persuasion using and misusing quotes or even hearsay, to support whichever particular theory they choose.

As the study states, accurate determination of eyewitness location relative to the flight path and impact site, and verbatim statements properly recorded, are essential.

However, even this does not weed out the many statements which may be made with the best of intentions but which include error or supposition or knowledge gained after the fact.

Nor does it identify witnesses who for whatever reason may have been intentionally lying.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:53 AM   #297
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DENNIS SMITH's location inside the Courtyard

Thanks to the poster who provided the link to the extended testimony of Dennis Smith, which now proves that it was absolutely impossible for him to have seen any part of the plane on its approach to the Pentagon.

This evidence discounts much of his testimony as worthless, as far as supporting an impact of the plane with the Pentagon.


Corridors 1 and 2 are on the southeast wedge of the Pentagon.
They meet at the apex inside the Pentagon courtyard, which is where Dennis Smith claimed to be when he (and some other unnamed employees) "heard" and "saw" the plane approaching from about 3 to 4 seconds prior to impact.

The following aerial photograph was taken 17 days before 9/11. It clearly shows the spot where Dennis Smith was standing, smoking his cigarette and talking to his mates, immediately prior to the impact.


The pertinent quotes from Dennis Smith's testimony are below.



If anything at all about his testimony is true, then we make take it that he correctly described his location.

He was standing just inside the courtyard, at the Corridor 1-2 Apex, on ground level.
There were several tall, large, dense trees on either side of him.
The roof of the Pentagon, next to which he was standing, is 77 feet high.

So my previous diagram, generously allowing that he may have been at the furthest extremity of the courtyard from the western wall, was incorrect. He was so close to the building that there is no possible way that he could have seen any part of the plane.

The testimony of numerous eyewitnesses also proves that he could not have heard the distant approach of the plane.





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Old 17th July 2019, 05:04 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
If Mike Walter was close enough to see the plane hitting the lightpoles on top of the bridge, then how could he have missed the pole hitting the taxi?
He was looking at the plane, not at the road. Picture yourself looking at a roaring plane unusually close to you that is crossing above you. You're going to follow it with your sight, aren't you?

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Did the wings of the plane FOLD BACK so that the plane could fly into the Pentagon?
That's his interpretation. It's not that unexpected, though. See this other plane crash.


Last edited by pgimeno; 17th July 2019 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 17th July 2019, 05:25 AM   #299
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What happened to the passengers and crew?
What happened to the aircraft if it didn't hit the Pentagon?
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Old 17th July 2019, 07:27 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Sergeant William Lagasse was standing at the northern side of the Citgo gas station when he saw the plane almost directly north of him, perhaps a couple of hundred feet away.
Rubygray, how do you reconcile all of the north of the Citgo flighpaths that contradict one another? See picture below.


The red arrows point to flightpaths that are north of the Navy Annex. The blue oval shows flighpaths that go over the Navy Annex. The one flightpath with the green circle goes over the Citgo station which contradicts what Lagasse saw.

Are some of these folks lying?
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Old 17th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
If Mike Walter was close enough to see the plane hitting the lightpoles on top of the bridge, then how could he have missed the pole hitting the taxi?


That seems like a curious question to me.

I mean firstly you're asking about a human witness, not a camera which just impassively records everything. But then you want to know how a person could possibly remember seeing an airliner crash into a building and yet not recollect seeing what became of some streetlights it also struck.

What part exactly seems odd to you?
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:07 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
The testimony of numerous eyewitnesses also proves that he could not have heard the distant approach of the plane.
The recollected impressions of witnesses that they noticed the sound of an approaching plane when it got near them doesn't prove the laws of physics are wrong.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:08 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Rubygray, how do you reconcile all of the north of the Citgo flighpaths that contradict one another? See picture below.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...f2ff532c4d.jpg

The red arrows point to flightpaths that are north of the Navy Annex. The blue oval shows flighpaths that go over the Navy Annex. The one flightpath with the green circle goes over the Citgo station which contradicts what Lagasse saw.

Are some of these folks lying?
Hey, why worry about the small stuff. The fact is that they all contradict "the man". That's the important part in CT land. Some of those paths contradict some of the other witnesses, yet they use them anyway because they all contradict "the man". If we accept all of the witness statements up to the approximate middle of the Navy Annex anything North of the Citgo Service Station is aerodynamically impossible.

It is hilarious that the vast majority of the witnesses used to construct the imaginary North of Citgo flight path say the aircraft impacted the Pentagon. Of course, all of that is ignored in favor of anything that contradicts "the man".
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:12 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Hey, why worry about the small stuff. The fact is that they all contradict "the man". That's the important part in CT land. Some of those paths contradict some of the other witnesses, yet they use them anyway because they all contradict "the man". If we accept all of the witness statements up to the approximate middle of the Navy Annex anything North of the Citgo Service Station is aerodynamically impossible.

It is hilarious that the vast majority of the witnesses used to construct the imaginary North of Citgo flight path say the aircraft impacted the Pentagon. Of course, all of that is ignored in favor of anything that contradicts "the man".
Thats's what all the conspiracy theories come down to.
Like Flat Earth. Most buy in to it because the Earth being a globe is the 'official' story.
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Old 17th July 2019, 09:46 AM   #305
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When did Dennis Smith see the plane? At some stage the plane was at several thousand feet and visible from the courtyard. Fortunately, the events of 9/11 don't depend on Mr Smith's recollections.
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:33 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
If Mike Walter was close enough to see the plane hitting the lightpoles on top of the bridge, then how could he have missed the pole hitting the taxi?
If Dennis Smith was in the courtyard of the Pentagon, how could he have missed the massive jet flying over the Pentagon, right over his head?
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:42 AM   #307
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They went to so much trouble to stage the taxi thing. Using decoys, moving the 'real' one to the bridge, getting rid of the decoy, firing a light pole from a special cannon in a special vehicle etc.

Why would they forget to tell Walter to mention it?
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Old 17th July 2019, 11:12 AM   #308
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Rubygray, read the partial transcript below again. Pay attention to what Gordon says in the first sentence and what he says hit the taxicab in blue.

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
GORDON :
And we do know they hit a taxi cab. The plane hit a taxi cab up here on the bridge, on the overpass.

Mike Walter :
I DIDN’T ... I DIDN’T KNOW THAT. I DID NOT SEE … I saw the ball of fire, yeah, and I SAW IT CLIP THE … THESE AH POLES, and and ah the billowing smoke, the grey column of smoke, and … and the pandemonium.”
Now read what you posted below in regards to what you say Gordon says hit the taxicab in blue.
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
However, when the interviewer replied that they had heard the lightpole/s hit a taxi cab, Mike Walter stuttered and stammered, and admitted he had NOT seen this.
See the difference?

Mike Walter was replying that he didn't see a PLANE hit the taxicab. Why did you switch this up?
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:30 PM   #309
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Wow...I never thought we could ever go this deep down the rabbit hole.
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Old 17th July 2019, 08:31 PM   #310
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fantasy flight path, a product of incompetent research

Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Well, many witnesses outside of the Pentagon testified that they did not hear the approaching plane until it was almost level with them, or even passing over their heads.

Witnesses at the Arlington National Cemetery described the plane as "GLIDING IN" before it passed the Navy Annex, then "poured the coals to it".


Sergeant William Lagasse was standing at the northern side of the Citgo gas station when he saw the plane almost directly north of him, perhaps a couple of hundred feet away. He did not hear it before he saw it.


Father Stephen McGraw was stationary in traffic on Route 27 opposite the Heliport when he "had a sensation of" the plane flying across his car. He did not hear it approach before this.



Firefighters MARK SKIPPER and ALAN WALLACE were standing beside the Heliport Tower, in front of the Pentagon wall, when they spotted the plane coming towards them, about 1.5 seconds before the impact. They did not hear its approach before they saw it.



As none of these witnesses, and more, heard the plane approaching for more than 1.5 seconds, although they were in a direct line with the plane's flight path, and its sound was unobstructed by any intervening physical structures …

then how could DENNIS SMITH possibly have heard the plane approaching for 3 to 4 seconds, when he was standing at ground level below the 77 foot high roof of the Pentagon, far to the east of the impact site with over 600 feet of the structure shielding him from sight and sound of the plane?


It is just not possible.

Dennis Smith was either mistaken, or deliberately lying.
Using Dennis Smith debunks your lies about the fantasy flight path, and that 77 never hit, or existed. Sick lies about those who died at the hands of terrorists. Terrorists who are apparently smarter than the lies you spin due to incompetent shallow research.

All high bank turns impossible due to aerodynamics, roll rate of a 757, and not one witness saw a high bank turn.

Thus you are support the lie of a fantasy flight path based on failed interpretations of witnesses.

The flight data recorder (FDR), Radar data from more than four independent radars, and DNA from the passengers on 77 found in the Pentagon with the FDR - prove you support sick pathetic lies.

The truth is, real data is too complex to grasp for 9/11 truth fantasy flight path cult members in 9/11 truth.
How many are in on the plot you have failed to detail? I was on active duty on 9/11, thus I am one of the bad guys in your sick demented paranoid fantasy lie. 19 terrorists figured out 9/11 many years before you discovered the failed rant and lies of 9/11 truth. The Passengers on Flight 93 figured out 9/11 many years before you did, and they paid the ultimate price to stop terrorists who took over their plane.
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Last edited by beachnut; 17th July 2019 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 17th July 2019, 08:49 PM   #311
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On the roof, at apex 1-2? that would be funny

Has 9/11 truth figured out the doppler effect yet - i think she was thinking of the doopler effect

Witnesses can't draw flight paths as presented by her, and the idiots of the CIT. Someone needs to take a course in aircraft investigation, it could cure the incompetent interpretation of witness statements.

Nobody saw a 757 fly over the Pentagon. How do insane claims of 9/11 truth fool people who think they are rational researchers? Yes, they are gullible, and have zero research skills (great google skills at finding 9/11 truth lies).
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:17 PM   #312
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Say rubygray -

I see on another forum in 2017 you cite the reason for not coming forth with the pics and videos that'll blow the lid off this whole 9/11 thing is you're in rural Australia with a flaky internet connection and have to drive to town to do any serious uploading. Same excuse you give on this forum.

Plan on upgrading your ISP any time soon?
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Old 18th July 2019, 10:10 AM   #313
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So, Ruby, when will you be admitting that you were completely wrong about the photos of bodies inside the Pentagon's actually having come from the WTC?
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Old 18th July 2019, 02:44 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
So, Ruby, when will you be admitting that you were completely wrong about the photos of bodies inside the Pentagon's actually having come from the WTC?
Never because she knows the Government always lies nd it was an inside job.
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:32 PM   #315
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"other military technology" involved

Quote:
Ruby please list the "other military technology" involved. Include evidence.
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:42 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would the wings 'fold back'?
Obviously, the wings would not, and could not, "fold back".

If a plane flies into a solid object with such force that its wings shear off, the forward velocity of the fuselage decreases, but the wings will continue forwards with the same velocity.

In fact, this is how some witnesses described what they saw.

This excuse is just another fib dreamed up by Mike Walter, who said on 9/11 that he absolutely saw the plane hit the lightpoles and the Pentagon, but on 9/12 he stated that he could not see the impact due to trees blocking his view (which was the truth).
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:44 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
So, Ruby, when will you be admitting that you were completely wrong about the photos of bodies inside the Pentagon's actually having come from the WTC?
When will you be admitting that those two photos are of 3 bodies of office workers killed inside the towers in New York?
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Old 18th July 2019, 08:48 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
On the roof, at apex 1-2?.
You are the one fabricating lies.

Where in the world did you get the idea that anyone was on the roof?????
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Old 18th July 2019, 09:03 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Using Dennis Smith debunks your lies about the fantasy flight path ...

... The Passengers on Flight 93 figured out 9/11 many years before you did, and they paid the ultimate price to stop terrorists who took over their plane.
Using Dennis Smith's evidence debunks YOUR fairytale about those flight 93 passengers storming the cabin to overpower the "hijackers".

Dennis Smith stated in that lengthy testimony on October 29 2001,

"I saw that F-16 up there fully loaded, and I was like "YES! It's all cool now." My personal opinion is that they took out the one in Pennsylvania. There were two of them here. You could hear the command centres all over, "We have another inbound," and those two shot out of here like bats and went north. They were gone. It doesn't take any time to get to Pennsylvania in one of those. There are no tollgates. Plus, when a plane goes down, it's big, and the debris is around a mile, NOT SIX MILES. That's my opinion. I THINK THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING IS BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAD BEEN CALLED ON THE CELLPHONES ABOUT DOING SOMETHING, AND NOBODY IS GOING TO DISPUTE THEM. SO WHY NOT JUST THINK EVERYBODY WAS A HERO. IF IT WAS ME, I WOULD LET THEM THINK THAT, TOO."
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Old 18th July 2019, 09:10 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Hey, why worry about the small stuff. The fact is that they all contradict "the man". That's the important part in CT land. Some of those paths contradict some of the other witnesses, yet they use them anyway because they all contradict "the man". If we accept all of the witness statements up to the approximate middle of the Navy Annex anything North of the Citgo Service Station is aerodynamically impossible.

It is hilarious that the vast majority of the witnesses used to construct the imaginary North of Citgo flight path say the aircraft impacted the Pentagon. Of course, all of that is ignored in favor of anything that contradicts "the man".
Everybody is still waiting for the first flight path personally drawn on a map signed by a witness who can prove their location at 9:37 a.m., who saw the plane fly across the bridge.

Or even for the first recorded testimony of any such witness who claims to have seen the plane fly south of Columbia Pike, on the south side of the Navy Annex and diagonally across the bridge.
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