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Old 5th August 2014, 03:08 AM   #201
lauwersw
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Another thing: while vmstat is good for immediate problem solving, it's useful to setup permanent monitoring, which gives you a picture of your system over time. An example is http://munin-monitoring.org/ (there are many others). This will help correlating system changes with performance changes and doesn't cost you many resources. Most systems will out of the box monitor things like CPU, memory and I/O on Linux, and many will offer plugins for specific applications like vBulletin and MySQL, offering you a complete picture.

I can't work anymore without something like that...
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:16 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
You missed at least one other problem caused by Sucuri: Missing avatars.
I was not saying that I had listed all current problems caused by Sucuri, Klimax. The problem you mention (avatars not showing) seems to occur only with Internet Explorer, and not with Chrome, Firefox or Opera (my OS is Windows, not checked any other). Still, the problem is real, and should be fixed
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:02 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Sharon (idoubtit), I hope Mr. Adams, who is perhaps the person who's been installing the Sucuri website firewall (see here for an explanation) for the forum in recent days, is fully aware of the problems mentioned by Lisa Simpson and Wolfman above. The number of active users is currently rather low (about 325 now, usually about 700 [?]), this may explain why the forum is fast. It would be nice if you could convince this person (or whoever is currently in charge of the hardware) to post in the Forum Help & Member Support sub-forum. In this way, he could explain what he's doing, interact with, and receive advice from the experts of this forum.
Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
I've got a problem...I can view the forum no problem, but every time I try to make a post, I'm taken to the Sucuri Website Firewall, with the following information:
Yes, it's highly possible RA blocked China. It's also likely that many of the "guests" in the active user listing were hackbots and that blocking China has improved performance. You may be stuck with a VPN until other decisions on forum (and hardware) management are finalised.

Regarding hardware and performance, the current specs should be more than enough to run the forum well enough, however there are two issues to consider -

(1) studies indicate the median life of a HDD is about 6 years. The current database drive was installed in February 2009 so has been in operation at least 5.5 years. There is currently no redundancy and I'm told backups have been .... problematic.

(2) newer, better, hardware can be had for less $$$

So no matter what other decisions are made, the site will be moving to new hardware, if it doesn't expire first.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:29 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'd be a bit leery of such an approach. What happens after year one if a revenue model is not found? Is there some way to estimate revenue streams from various business models before starting down one road? Surely, yes, because we can't be the first non-profit to fact this situation.
It would certainly be far from the optimal approach in my view as well, but given the expressed lack of interest in the forum on JREF's part I think it only prudent to consider the feasibility of "going it alone". Of course, the status quo (with improved hardware/software) would be ideal, but whether that is in the cards is yet to be determined.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:32 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I was not saying that I had listed all current problems caused by Sucuri, Klimax. The problem you mention (avatars not showing) seems to occur only with Internet Explorer, and not with Chrome, Firefox or Opera (my OS is Windows, not checked any other). Still, the problem is real, and should be fixed
I know, just wanted to keep it visible. Just note: The only reason other browsers are not affected is, that they don't have a way to disable file type sniffing (security feature), otherwise you'd get same result. (Core cause is, forum serving PNG and JPG as GIFs...)
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:07 AM   #206
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I've just managed to log in for the first time in 3 days. Every other time resulted in a failure supposedly due to having used up my attempts. I've cleared history, cookies, temp files, reloaded multiple times, same result. I'm now using IE instead of Chrome and managed to log in. Not sure what's going on with that, but it's an issue I've never had before.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:19 AM   #207
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Sometimes tough decisions need to be made.

There is no planned support for the Forum from the JREF. It will be detached from the org. I understand this may be confusing but the Forum is very much its own thing seperate from the org and currently does not fit into the narrowed mission. More will be clear when we formulate that new roll out and announce it. That the forum expanded into all sorts of other areas is normal, not anything bad. But it simply has outgrown the support of the org - like a child that has grown up and needs to go out on his own, if you will.

The current server situation will not work so it must be moved.

The proxy was allowing the site to run quickly. But then, for some unknown reason, refused logins. You could get through by bypassing the proxy server as noted above. I was able to login normally now to post this.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:43 AM   #208
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I still can't log in to do registrations (now up to 22) and Locknar can't log in at all. How are we supposed to fix this?
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:46 AM   #209
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Well, that clears that up, Sharon.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:49 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by idoubtit View Post
Sometimes tough decisions need to be made.

There is no planned support for the Forum from the JREF. It will be detached from the org. I understand this may be confusing but the Forum is very much its own thing seperate from the org and currently does not fit into the narrowed mission. More will be clear when we formulate that new roll out and announce it. That the forum expanded into all sorts of other areas is normal, not anything bad. But it simply has outgrown the support of the org - like a child that has grown up and needs to go out on his own, if you will.

The current server situation will not work so it must be moved.

The proxy was allowing the site to run quickly. But then, for some unknown reason, refused logins. You could get through by bypassing the proxy server as noted above. I was able to login normally now to post this.
Well isn't that a great big steaming pile of **** right there. The donate to JREF button can now presumably be removed?

Thank you to al the forumites who have offered help. All I can offer is a donation.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:49 AM   #211
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The number of people who cannot log in is growing. Yesterday, I got 3 emails from people who couldn't. This morning 5. And those are only the people who know my email address and thought to use it.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:49 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
I still can't log in to do registrations (now up to 22) and Locknar can't log in at all. How are we supposed to fix this?
I gather the sucuri caching is caching the 2nd login page for mod login and that's causing problems. At present I think only RA has access to fix those issues. You may have some luck (probably not) trying another browser (or completely clearing all your cookies and cache)
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Benford's law of controversy - Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available

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Old 5th August 2014, 06:52 AM   #213
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I tried clearing all of my cache and I've tried Safari (regular browser), Firefox and Chrome. None work.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:55 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
I tried clearing all of my cache and I've tried Safari (regular browser), Firefox and Chrome. None work.
Just tried IE on my husband's computer. Didn't work either.
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Old 5th August 2014, 07:15 AM   #215
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the view first unread post function no longer works.
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Old 5th August 2014, 07:19 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
the view first unread post function no longer works.
and is getting worse - it was dropping me into the top of page 5 each time a while ago, now it is putting me into page 4
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:17 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yes, it's highly possible RA blocked China. It's also likely that many of the "guests" in the active user listing were hackbots and that blocking China has improved performance. You may be stuck with a VPN until other decisions on forum (and hardware) management are finalised.
Well, that sucks. Understand the reason for it, but my VPN service is not that great (the Great Firewall is in a constant battle to block VPNs), so my access here will be spotty at best.

But...given the following announcement...that may essentially be moot, anyway:

Originally Posted by idoubtit View Post
Sometimes tough decisions need to be made.

There is no planned support for the Forum from the JREF. It will be detached from the org.
While I'm fairly confident that the site itself could migrate elsewhere, and we could raise the funds to cover that...

...I'm rather doubtful about the long-term survival of the forum under those conditions. Who would then be in charge of the forum? Who would decide how it's run, etc.? If the forum splits off into its own independent entity, I can see the battle-to-end-all-forum-battles, as we face huge disagreements over who should run it, how it should be run/changed, etc. No matter what the outcome, I predict that we'd lose quite a few members during that process; and lacking the direct link with the JREF, we'd likely be attracting a much lower number of new members.

I dunno...not sure how this bodes for the forum overall.
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:27 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
The number of people who cannot log in is growing. Yesterday, I got 3 emails from people who couldn't. This morning 5. And those are only the people who know my email address and thought to use it.
IS there a future of the forum ?
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:28 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by idoubtit View Post
Sometimes tough decisions need to be made.

There is no planned support for the Forum from the JREF. It will be detached from the org. I understand this may be confusing but the Forum is very much its own thing seperate from the org and currently does not fit into the narrowed mission.
Very narrowed, I guess.
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:46 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Well, that sucks. Understand the reason for it, but my VPN service is not that great (the Great Firewall is in a constant battle to block VPNs), so my access here will be spotty at best.
Rick says he hasn't blocked China, so that's not it. Some other complication between the firewall and vbulletin.

Quote:
While I'm fairly confident that the site itself could migrate elsewhere, and we could raise the funds to cover that...

...I'm rather doubtful about the long-term survival of the forum under those conditions. Who would then be in charge of the forum? Who would decide how it's run, etc.? If the forum splits off into its own independent entity, I can see the battle-to-end-all-forum-battles, as we face huge disagreements over who should run it, how it should be run/changed, etc. No matter what the outcome, I predict that we'd lose quite a few members during that process; and lacking the direct link with the JREF, we'd likely be attracting a much lower number of new members.

I dunno...not sure how this bodes for the forum overall.
Yes, it will be a challenge. Technically - and to my great surprise - the buck will stop with me. I made an offer to take over management of the forum and they've accepted. Personally I'd like to keep the forum site pretty much as is with the same mods and admins, I'll just be more available to harass for technical problems if things break and responsible for paying the bills. JREF and the "new" forum will continue to cross-promote each other.

Quite frankly I personally find the forum of such value if I end up having to fund the whole thing myself I will. As I told my wife the other day I enjoy a place where I regularly feel intellectually intimidated! Good for the soul There's a lot of people who know a lot about a lot of subjects on this site, and it's not a resource I want to see disappear and that's been a very real possibility. IMO none of the other skeptics sites seem to have come close to matching what is available here.

On a positive note, for the first time in apparently quite a while, as of today there is actually a full backup of the site so if the hardware fails all is not lost!

Might be worth starting a new thread to talk about options, just not sure what category is appropriate!
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:51 AM   #221
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I, for one, welcome our new Swedish overlord...
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:52 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I, for one, welcome our new Swedish overlord...
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
Actually I'm Australian, but one of these days I'll get around to dual citizenship
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:52 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
Just tried IE on my husband's computer. Didn't work either.
Looks like I'm lucky, only avatars don't work...
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Old 5th August 2014, 08:53 AM   #224
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If we have a swedish overlord, does that mean we will be getting anonymous danish mods?
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:00 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
If we have a swedish overlord, does that mean we will be getting anonymous danish mods?
Danes do have their uses.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:07 AM   #226
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Ummm... I'm not really comfortable with handing over all the information I signed up with to a random person who has offered to take over the forum rather than an organization that has to adhere to privacy policies.

Is there a suggestion on what to do about that?
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:11 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
Actually I'm Australian, but one of these days I'll get around to dual citizenship
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:13 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
Ummm... I'm not really comfortable with handing over all the information I signed up with to a random person who has offered to take over the forum rather than an organization that has to adhere to privacy policies.

Is there a suggestion on what to do about that?
Yeah, I raised that issue with JREF myself. (Not that I ever felt particularly random!) From my perspective the privacy policy will stay much the same (I won't be selling your details to Facebook) and I suggested all members be emailed and given the opportunity to opt out of the transfer. Note that right now the anonymous non-JREF employee admins and mods can access your info, as can the data centre employees if they wanted to.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:19 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Yeah, I raised that issue with JREF myself. (Not that I ever felt particularly random!) From my perspective the privacy policy will stay much the same (I won't be selling your details to Facebook) and I suggested all members be emailed and given the opportunity to opt out of the transfer. Note that right now the anonymous non-JREF employee admins and mods can access your info, as can the data centre employees if they wanted to.
They are official volunteers of an organization that has accountability.

It is against privacy laws to give you the registration information of the members.

I cannot believe this seemed like a good idea.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:25 AM   #230
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Only the admins can access sign up info, not the mods.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:25 AM   #231
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Well, that escalated quickly. From discussions of hardware modernization to forum disownment in a few days

Good thing there's plenty of people with interest and dedication around to buffer this. Sad thing that JREF apparently has an even lower opinion of the forum than suspected. Scary thing that we now appear to have to rush into this because the infrastructure is visibly tottering (couldn't log in for most of the day because Sucuri hated me - fine now).
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:30 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Floyt View Post
Well, that escalated quickly. From discussions of hardware modernization to forum disownment in a few days
Looks like the JREF saw the slow down problems as more of an opportunity than a problem.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:31 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
They are official volunteers of an organization that has accountability.
How the forum is run is still up for discussion. Simplest is my company (not me personally) takes it over, but the best option might be to set up a new NFP or perhaps B-Corp.

Quote:
It is against privacy laws to give you the registration information of the members.
Straight up, probably yes, but there are (legal) ways around that. In principle though I entirely agree with you, which is why I raised it with them. It's an issue that needs addressing - What would you suggest?

Quote:
I cannot believe this seemed like a good idea.
The option is the forum is turned off.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:40 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Rick says he hasn't blocked China, so that's not it. Some other complication between the firewall and vbulletin.



Yes, it will be a challenge. Technically - and to my great surprise - the buck will stop with me. I made an offer to take over management of the forum and they've accepted. Personally I'd like to keep the forum site pretty much as is with the same mods and admins, I'll just be more available to harass for technical problems if things break and responsible for paying the bills. JREF and the "new" forum will continue to cross-promote each other.

Quite frankly I personally find the forum of such value if I end up having to fund the whole thing myself I will. As I told my wife the other day I enjoy a place where I regularly feel intellectually intimidated! Good for the soul There's a lot of people who know a lot about a lot of subjects on this site, and it's not a resource I want to see disappear and that's been a very real possibility. IMO none of the other skeptics sites seem to have come close to matching what is available here.

On a positive note, for the first time in apparently quite a while, as of today there is actually a full backup of the site so if the hardware fails all is not lost!

Might be worth starting a new thread to talk about options, just not sure what category is appropriate!
Speaking as one of the very numerous lurkers/infrequent posters, welcome and thanks. I'm glad someone is going to save the forum, it sounds like JREF really dropped the ball.
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Old 5th August 2014, 09:53 AM   #235
Lisa Simpson
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I don't know about a specific law, but I can say this...Tesco, the UK grocery store chain, briefly tried to get into the US grocery market with a chain called Fresh & Easy. They had a members reward card. Eventually, Tesco decided it was not a money maker and sold it another company called Wild Oats. When the sale went through, those of us with a member card were told repeatedly they were not allowed to give over our member information and we had to re-sign up for the rewards card.

From their FAQ:

Quote:
On September 10, 2013, we announced we were selling the business to a Yucaipa affiliated company. We also announced that the Friends of fresh&easy Rewards Program (“Friends Rewards”) will be offered by the new company in the stores that continue to operate.

Unfortunately, legally we can’t transfer your personal information to the new company because of privacy restrictions in states like California and Arizona. The process is really simple!
http://www.freshandeasy.com/contact-...ends-transfer/

It is something to consider.
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Old 5th August 2014, 10:08 AM   #236
RemieV
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It's illegal for a couple of reasons, the first of which is the Online Privacy Protection Act, which is what Lisa's post refers to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_...Protection_Act

The other is that it violates the JREF's own privacy policy, an enforceable contract.

The relevant bits:

Quote:
Privacy

The JREF is committed to safeguarding your online privacy and does not sell or share the information you provide during registration with any other organisation. The JREF Forum has a Privacy Statement that can be found in the FAQ.
And from the FAQ:

Quote:
How your information is used.

The information collected by the JREF during registration may be used to contact you either regarding JREF or JREF Forum matters of interest, issues or other JREF business.

The JREF does not sell or share the information you are required to provide during registration with any other organisation.

With whom your information may be shared.

As a general rule, the JREF will not disclose or share any of your personally identifiable information except if you have given permission or when we believe in good faith that the law requires it.

How your information is secured.

Other than officers of the JREF, agents acting on behalf of the JREF or the administrators and moderators of the JREF Forum you are the only person who has access to your personal information.
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Old 5th August 2014, 10:12 AM   #237
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Looks like I'm lucky, only avatars don't work...
I can only log in from my phone....

Very frustrating. I may have to think about bidding adieu to some of my favorite and not so favorite posters. Too bad Clayton already got the boot.
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Old 5th August 2014, 10:14 AM   #238
icerat
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Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson View Post
It is something to consider.
It's a common problem. People have learned to put in fine print to cover ownership changes.

A simple way is just to purge all identifiable info for the migration, leaving username and (encrypted) password, and when the transfer happens people have to agree to new terms to login.
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Old 5th August 2014, 10:15 AM   #239
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Floyt View Post
Well, that escalated quickly. From discussions of hardware modernization to forum disownment in a few days
Well, after six months of such problems, anyway.

Quote:
Sad thing that JREF apparently has an even lower opinion of the forum than suspected.
Yes. Losing this forum would be very unfortunate. It's been a good ressource for me over the years, at least.
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Old 5th August 2014, 10:20 AM   #240
Spindrift
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Besides the privacy issue, the biggest problem I foresee is that we lose our benevolent dictator. Decisions that many may disagree with but were probably for the best could just be chalked up to: "That's what JREF wants. It's their forum, their rules." I always felt that JREF having the final say was a needed safety valve.

Where it's hosted and how privacy laws are followed are some of the lesser issues really. Those are just technical problems. We are going to have political issues. I agree with Wolfman, we may be heading to a battle royale over the direction of the forum. Someone needs to be in charge, but who and how are they selected?
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