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Old 5th August 2014, 03:39 PM   #321
Spindrift
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
And what would be the new name? And which sections would disappear?
To start, everything under JREF Topics except Welcome!

Dispose of the Archive.

New name: theforumformerlyknownasjref.org
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:39 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by temporalillusion View Post
I guess that's two other questions that maybe can be at least considered... is there an existing forum with similar enough goals that could be the new home for this forum's members? Does make the whole transition easier, though I expect that's not what most people who care would want.
Personally, the lag issues are making me question my frequent visits, here. The forum has been a major part of my internet life in the past 9 years, but because of the members, not the actual foundation/forum. I do miss many of the old familiar faces who either left or were banned. If we were to find a new place and the regulars here switched, I would be inclined to follow.

The question, however, and no matter what happens (change of forum or just change of owners), is how the new rules affect the community and its dynamics. Some members may not have been banned under those rules.

Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
A forum is an inefficient means of communication
You'll have to explain that one to me. You can't debate with Twitter on 140 characters. Youtube is... not very good for discussions, etc. I get that Facebook could do the trick but it's not as well-structured as a forum, so the thread of a conversation gets lost very very quickly.

Quote:
People are scared.
I'm not scared. Just dissapointed.
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:41 PM   #323
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If a member is banned does that mean in the new forum they'll be able to come back?

Please don't tell Clayton....
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:45 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

You'll have to explain that one to me. You can't debate with Twitter on 140 characters. Youtube is... not very good for discussions, etc. I get that Facebook could do the trick but it's not as well-structured as a forum, so the thread of a conversation gets lost very very quickly.
I am speaking of JREF itself, not the members of this forum. JREF itself does not participate in on-line debate. They are looking for marketing and PR, not scoring debate points on a relatively small forum.
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:47 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by platonov View Post
I dont wish to piss off our new overlord(s) but ...
Really ?

If the current admin/mod* team aren't on board many of the members may not see it that way.
[If I may state the bleedin' obvious].
Well, some are still on board, some are understandably p***ed at what I think has been poor treatment by JREF, who hasn't communicated with and treated them with the respect they deserve. It's sad that they in effect are taking that out on the forum community (by withdrawing their services to the community), but I can also understand the reaction - heck, I did much the same in a similar situation once.

The forum just needs a new home. That's it.

It's an opportunity to make it better than before, with lessons learned from the mistakes. Myself and other members have all put up our hands and said we'll keep it running. If the forum dies it's because the members choose that path, not because JREF decided they didn't want to support it any more.
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:49 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are making the assumption that incumbent members will abandon ship in droves. Why do you think that?
"I'm a'stayin'!"

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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 5th August 2014 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:51 PM   #327
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Well, this is sad news.

And I learned about it on Facebook.
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:52 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That is a feeling of rejection. And, to be fair, I feel that sense too.

But take a moment to consider who is rejecting, and who is being rejected.

It is JREF rejecting the forum community, not the Forum rejecting you.

And at base, JREF does not participate in this community in any meaningful way.

So what is important? The preservation of a pointless link to a neglectful JREF? Or the preservation of your link to a community?
nommed
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:54 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
I always considered Icerat to be our most valuable member.
I'll remember you said that.
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Old 5th August 2014, 03:58 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
If a member is banned does that mean in the new forum they'll be able to come back?

Please don't tell Clayton....
But please do tell Dr. Adequate and GeeMack and Marduk and Articulett and triforcharity and stankape and quarky and pardalis and thunder and zep and plumjam and uncayimmy and many others...

Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I am speaking of JREF itself, not the members of this forum. JREF itself does not participate in on-line debate. They are looking for marketing and PR, not scoring debate points on a relatively small forum.
Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:00 PM   #331
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Are icerat and Darat related?


Nepotism sucks.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:02 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Well, some are still on board, some are understandably p***ed at what I think has been poor treatment by JREF, who hasn't communicated with and treated them with the respect they deserve. It's sad that they in effect are taking that out on the forum community (by withdrawing their services to the community), but I can also understand the reaction - heck, I did much the same in a similar situation once.

The forum just needs a new home. That's it.

It's an opportunity to make it better than before, with lessons learned from the mistakes. Myself and other members have all put up our hands and said we'll keep it running. If the forum dies it's because the members choose that path, not because JREF decided they didn't want to support it any more.
Not a very 'politic' response methinks.

This way or the highway ? Someone mentioned RDF upthread ?
FWIW I dont have a dog in this fight & Nor am I trying to stir the pot.

I doubt most posters would recognize my username in any case but - the bleedin' obvious is just that. Given the recent login issues would a period of consultation not be appropriate.

Although if one wishes to be cynical some RDF type netdrama would be a source of gaiety to many.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:04 PM   #333
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Well, I have finally managed to get logged in and the only way I could do it was by downloading and using Safari

Firefox, Opera and Chrome all tell me

"Wrong username or password. You have used up your failed login quota! Please wait 15 minutes before trying again."

and IE tells me I'm a Fake BOT

Block details
Your IP: 111.69.92.168
URL: forums.randi.org/login.php?do=login
Your Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; BTRS127583; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.
Block ID: FBP006
Block reason: Fake bot access.
Time: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 17:14:11 -0400
Server ID: cp413



On topic, I'll follow this forum wherever it goes, JREF or no JREF

IMO, first order of business once the hardware is sorted out (and if the new owners want to stick with vBulletin) is to upgrade to version that is supported ... at least 4.2.0
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:05 PM   #334
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I have no qualms about keeping my user account and continuing to participate on the forum.

The forum is the way it is because of it's members, not because of what entity paid the bills.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:06 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by platonov View Post
Not a very 'politic' response methinks.

This way or the highway ? Someone mentioned RDF upthread ?
FWIW I dont have a dog in this fight & Nor am I trying to stir the pot.

I doubt most posters would recognize my username in any case but - the bleedin' obvious is just that. Given the recent login issues would a period of consultation not be appropriate.

Although if one wishes to be cynical some RDF type netdrama would be a source of gaiety to many.
Don't shoot the messenger.

Consultation? JREF doesn't want to spend one more dime on the forum. They have an out (icerat) and they are taking it, as quickly as possible.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:07 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But please do tell Dr. Adequate and GeeMack and Marduk and Articulett and triforcharity and stankape and quarky and pardalis and thunder and zep and plumjam and uncayimmy and many others...
Heck, one Clayton to get back all of them might be the better part of the bargain (again "might").
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:14 PM   #337
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Cool Did I mention the loathing

Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Don't shoot the messenger.

Consultation? JREF doesn't want to spend one more dime on the forum. They have an out (icerat) and they are taking it, as quickly as possible.
I probably didn't get my point across with sufficient clarity (for once)

If it's going to happen & it is - Fine.
The point I was raising was - who will run the show.
The current admin/mod team [ who I loathe BTW ] or ??

Last edited by platonov; 5th August 2014 at 04:18 PM. Reason: admin
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:20 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by platonov View Post
The current admin/mod team [ who I loathe BTW ] or ??
Whom. Whom I loathe.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:28 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I, for one, welcome our new Swedish overlord...
Indeed, all hail Icecat The Grrrrrrrreeeeeaaaaaaat!
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:32 PM   #340
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As usual, I have nothing worthwhile to contribute; but I do want to say that I strongly appreciate the efforts of those who have stepped up to keep things running. I've been here for the better part of a decade; and this place is very important to me. It's almost my sole daily dose of sanity in a world of nonsense; particularly with so many of my other friends and acquaintances going down the woo rabbit-hole and drinking the SJW kool-aid lately. It's nice to have a place that values skepticism and rational, reasoned debate free (mostly) of personal attacks and demonization.

Not much good for the technical stuff, but I'm happy to help in any way I can.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:35 PM   #341
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I remember when a forum that I loved suddenly shut down with no warning. I tracked down two members from the forum and only one was a friend. Never got in contact with any of the friends I made there after that.
Never found a place like it since then.
So I'm happy this forum isn't going, even if there's going to be a changing of hands and name it'll still be here.
I'm a member of a few other skeptical forums, and I post there about as often as I do here, but a number of the friends I've made in the skeptical community are here.
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:44 PM   #342
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Smile You're from the north, right.

Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Whom. Whom I loathe.
Well ...
apart from the fact that it's not my first language
&
I didnt want to sound pompous

My usage is probably correct ?

ETA Hadn't spotted you were a mod when I replied (see below)

Last edited by platonov; 5th August 2014 at 04:53 PM. Reason: ETA
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Old 5th August 2014, 04:45 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by platonov View Post
Well ...
apart from the fact that it's not my first language
&
I didnt want to sound pompous

My usage is probably correct ?
But your question mark is questionable.

Sorry, I'm just doing my best to be loathed.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:01 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
I've just managed to log in for the first time in 3 days. Every other time resulted in a failure supposedly due to having used up my attempts. I've cleared history, cookies, temp files, reloaded multiple times, same result. I'm now using IE instead of Chrome and managed to log in. Not sure what's going on with that, but it's an issue I've never had before.
I've had the same problem with FireFox. I logged in from IE OK. I don't know what's going on either.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:05 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
I've had the same problem with FireFox. I logged in from IE OK. I don't know what's going on either.
The proxy/firewall that was causing the weird problems has been turned off.

On the down side, the intermittent lag problems may came back as a result.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:09 PM   #346
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If people are wanting to find a new forum after this, check out the skeptics guide to the universe forum or rational skepticism. RS has a lot of members from the Dawkin's forum.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:12 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
These news... unsettle me. This forum means a terrible lot to me. I was barely 18, a broken and lonesome man when I found it. Suddenly I had a place with so many thoughtful and intelligent people, so much to learn, and a purpose of sorts. I found new friends, new communities, a new culture, a new language, new ways of thinking, new perspective. I shudder to think what might have become of me without this to hang on to, refer to, fall back on.

I have grown enough to more than stand on my own whatever I face, but this forum made me and I will not see it undone. Not without exhausting all the options.

We're at a crossroads now, and if we want to preserve this community, we must display great prudence. Who decides what, how disputes are settled, funding, direction... all of these things will mighty ripple in the fate of this place.

I wish there were more I could do for now. I suppose little more than melodramatic musings escapes me. But to all of those with the technical skills to keep it going, thank you. To all who ask the difficult questions, thank you. To everyone who puts in work to salvage this home... Thank you so much.
Nominated.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:14 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
If people are wanting to find a new forum after this, check out the skeptics guide to the universe forum or rational skepticism. RS has a lot of members from the Dawkin's forum.
I'm sure they are fine forums, but I would ask members not to jump ship until things are settled, one way or another, over here. When it becomes necessary, I will be investigating those.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:17 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The proxy/firewall that was causing the weird problems has been turned off.

On the down side, the intermittent lag problems may came back as a result.
Thanks for the info. I searched "JREF form" from FireFox and then logged in OK.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:18 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by idoubtit View Post
I have no qualms about keeping my user account and continuing to participate on the forum.

The forum is the way it is because of it's members, not because of what entity paid the bills.
This is worth repeating. It's the community that makes this forum what it is, not the funding body. Some of us may have come here following Randi's name, but that's not the reason we stayed.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:25 PM   #351
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As most political forum discussions here degrade into name calling I do not care if it folds. What I only use it for now is to post the most jejune quotes from here on other forums.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:28 PM   #352
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I've started a separate thread in Community for more specific, focused discussion on what to do next in regards to the forum; people might wanna' go there to discuss it, but am posting a copy here too:
Quote:
A veritable ****-storm of controversy has been stirred up by the recent revelation that the JREF is planning to disassociate itself from the forums. Meaning that either they are shut down entirely, or they must be taken over by someone else.

While not a decision that I'd personally disagree with, I can understand the JREF's reasons for doing so. It's a fact that they've had to deal with various lawsuits originating directly from discussions in these forums...and whether those lawsuits were valid or not (so far as I'm aware, nobody ever won such a lawsuit), it created unwanted problems and distractions for the JREF. That alone could be adequate reason to seek to drop the forums. They cannot adequately control what people on the forums may say or do, but by being an official part of the JREF, it opens them up to potential litigation over things said by people who have nothing to do with the JREF.

Many people are, understandably, upset about this. Lisa Simpson, who I'd generally consider one of the more level-headed members, is so upset that she's talked about leaving altogether; she feels it is a betrayal from the JREF, after she's volunteered to help with the forums for a decade or more. And I'm sure she's not alone in that sense of betrayal.

But I'd like to propose an alternative perspective. The vast majority of members here have participated because of the community...not because of the JREF. In fact, for the past several years, the JREF has had almost zero involvement in the forums, it's effectively been run by us, the members, anyway. So it's not so much that the JREF is abandoning us now -- they abandoned us several years ago. They've just taken this long to get around to formalizing that decision.

Yet during this time, the forum has continued to run just fine, with almost zero involvement or support from the JREF.

Right now, there are really only two options. Option one is shut down the forum entirely, and lose this community. Some people would keep in touch, through social media, email, or other websites...but truth is, the community we've built would be lost.

More than that, a huge treasure trove of information would be lost. And that, to me, would be the greatest tragedy of shutting down these forums. There is so much information here that has been accumulated over the years. I'd really hate to see that lost.

Option two is to find someone else to take charge of the forums. Jeff Wagg has been proposed as the new 'overlord', and personally, I think that'd be a great choice. He's got the experience, he previously oversaw the running of the forums when he worked with the JREF, and he has a legal organization that the forums can be attached to. In fact, I think the forums were better under his guidance than they've become since.

Now is not the time for decisions based on emotion. Feeling hurt, abandoned, betrayed, angry...those are all legitimate feelings. But they should not be the foundation for making decisions about what happens next with these forums. This is a forum dedicated to the idea of rational thinking -- so let's do our best to be rational.

And in some ways, we could see this as an opportunity. There are some aspects of this forum that people have long disagreed with, but couldn't change because of the JREF's control. The censoring of particular words (like bull-feces) would be a good example. I'd also like to visit the possibility of pardoning some banned members (Dr. Adequate would be one of my first choices, if he were willing to return).

We could use this as an opportunity to re-shape the forums in the way that we, the members, think is best. Certainly, we'll never have 100% agreement about what form that should be; and certainly, we'll lose people along the way.

What it comes down to in the end is this -- the JREF has abandoned the forums. Are we going to abandon them, too?

I say no.

In fact, I say that we take the forums for ourselves, we make them better...and we demonstrate to the JREF what a stupid mistake they made when they decided that the forums had no value to them.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:30 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Nominated.
That one's gonna be in the finals. Take it to the bank.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:32 PM   #354
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I have no technical abilities but I will donate and do anything else that is needed with reorganizing.

Everyone keeps mentioning Jeff Wagg but he has not come here and posted about it. Icerat is here among us, actively being a part of us. I for one like the idea of someone who we "know" and see once in a while.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:36 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I have no technical abilities but I will donate and do anything else that is needed with reorganizing.

Everyone keeps mentioning Jeff Wagg but he has not come here and posted about it. Icerat is here among us, actively being a part of us. I for one like the idea of someone who we "know" and see once in a while.
I believe that what's being discussed is a kind of cooperative arrangement...Jeff Wagg takes over 'ownership' of the forum, and is in charge of it from a legal perspective; while icerat would be responsible for technical details of actually migrating the site to its new location.

Icerat's also offered to assume the costs of doing so, but I don't see why that should be necessary....I think we should be able to get enough financial support from the membership to cover most or all of that.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:37 PM   #356
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Personally, I think this is a huge mistake for the JREF, but its disdain for this forum has been glaringly evident for some time.

JREF will lose a very active part of its community when this is done, because people's attention will be directed elsewhere.

What's more, this is not the first time that "get rid of it" has been floated. Somebody, somewhere in the JREF does not like the idea of a forum, and has been working on this for some years now.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:42 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I have no technical abilities but I will donate and do anything else that is needed with reorganizing.

Everyone keeps mentioning Jeff Wagg but he has not come here and posted about it. Icerat is here among us, actively being a part of us. I for one like the idea of someone who we "know" and see once in a while.

Although Jeff's direct participation in the forum has waned over the past several years, his long-standing contributions to both the forum and to the JREF, itself, are well-established. Those of us who know Jeff also know what a positive influence he'd have heading the forum.

I don't think you will find anyone seriously expressing anything to the contrary. He's a damn good choice.
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Old 5th August 2014, 05:50 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
I'm sure they are fine forums, but I would ask members not to jump ship until things are settled, one way or another, over here. When it becomes necessary, I will be investigating those.
Well we're certainly not waiting for you, rat's leaving a sinking ship and all that.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:03 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
and IE tells me I'm a Fake BOT
That's what Microsoft thinks of all of us.
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Old 5th August 2014, 06:15 PM   #360
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Just one thing before I call it a night, I think it's important for everyone to note that JREF has agreed to financially support the migration to a new server and operations for 6 months.

They're not just abandoning the site without assistance and they're helping keep it alive, I didn't ask for that contribution, they offered it.
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