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Old 6th September 2014, 08:23 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
copyright

"content"
Can you quote the parts of the new agreement that you think says this? I'm not seeing it.
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Old 6th September 2014, 09:47 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Can you quote the parts of the new agreement that you think says this? I'm not seeing it.
Under the heading "copyright"....
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Old 6th September 2014, 10:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Under the heading "copyright"....
You mean being able to transfer the licence to use members' copyrighted content? Then yes that is gaining an option that currently the JREF does not have. Of course that will only apply to content a member posts after the ISF comes into existence. All previous content is published by the JREF under their current licence and that requires no additional "rights".

Anyone not wanting to grant that additional right simply does not register at the new Forum, it would be a shame to lose folk over this as it is standard in the T&Cs of most sites that allow folk to make comments. Actually come to think of it - it isn't that common - the T&Cs usually state that by posting you assign the copyright to your content to the owners/operators of the site.
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Old 6th September 2014, 11:14 AM   #84
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Just so I understand..


Do we just log in to the new forum with our current user name, at which time we will agree to the user agreement?
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Old 6th September 2014, 01:31 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Just so I understand..

Do we just log in to the new forum with our current user name, at which time we will agree to the user agreement?
We haven't worked out the exact flow yet. We might just let people login after accepting T&C and have the "transfer personal data" option operate separately or we might integrate them.
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Old 6th September 2014, 03:59 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Anyone not wanting to grant that additional right simply does not register at the new Forum, it would be a shame to lose folk over this as it is standard in the T&Cs of most sites that allow folk to make comments.
Just because something is standard doesn't mean its a good idea. Leaded petrol being the standard example.

Most sites that request an extensive sub-licence do so because they are for-profit organisations who want to be able to plaster stuff with ads. Are you saying that applies in this case?

Quote:
Actually come to think of it - it isn't that common - the T&Cs usually state that by posting you assign the copyright to your content to the owners/operators of the site.
No they don't. Either you don't spend much time reading T&Cs or you are lying (for the record I just scanned youtube's facebook's livejournal and wordpress's T&C. I already know wikipedia's). Which is it?
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Old 6th September 2014, 06:07 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That's kinda covered by this:

Are you suggesting adding something like:


or similar?

It's implied but not explicitly stated.
Yeah, that seems to be it. I just wanted to double-check that someone considered it!
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Old 6th September 2014, 09:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Anyone not wanting to grant that additional right simply does not register at the new Forum
But that is not how this is intended to happen.

The new forum is taking all content from this forum.

When you don't register at the new forum, does the existing content that is now published on the new forum get deleted?

Otherwise, how will the forum owners know the content over which they have no rights? Especially in time, after the forum has been running for a while, are they going to check the publication date (is there one? avatars are not dated, they just change) of any photo they want to take, adapt and use as their own or are they just going to go ahead and make use of content to which they have no copyright? How are they going to differentiate between content to which they have full copyright rights and those to which they don't?

The usual position is that you get permission, and then you deal with it. Here, they are talking about getting permission AFTER they have already acquired it. What do they intend doing with the moved content when permission is not given? (bear in mind that this includes content of users who are not active on the forum).
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Old 6th September 2014, 09:24 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
When you don't register at the new forum, does the existing content that is now published on the new forum get deleted?
No. You've agreed to that when you joined here.

And I don't understand why you think they can't tell the dates of posts.

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Old 6th September 2014, 09:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
And I don't understand why you think they can't tell the dates of posts.
So, no additional rights at all are being claimed to existing content?

If not, will they be constantly checking dates of content (which includes photographs which may be linked from elsewhere) and the status of the user to determine when it was posted and whether the user has agreed to the unfettered use (not mere publication) of past content or not?

It isn't a question of before this date and after, if it was, then they need to redraft the T&C, because that's not what it says.
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Old 6th September 2014, 09:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
So, no additional rights at all are being claimed to existing content?

If not, will they be constantly checking dates of content (which includes photographs which may be linked from elsewhere) and the status of the user to determine when it was posted and whether the user has agreed to the unfettered use (not mere publication) of past content or not?

It isn't a question of before this date and after, if it was, then they need to redraft the T&C, because that's not what it says.
Why would they need to be constantly checking dates???

ETA: Looking back, it doesn't look like you've explained your concern very well, or quoted the part that is giving you trouble. Why not do that?

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Old 6th September 2014, 10:04 PM   #92
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Lolly,

Any information posted on these forums, prior to the changeover, will be subject to the T&C you signed with the JREF. Any information you post on the new forums after the changeover will be subject to the new T&C.

So if you want your old info subject to the old T&C, and don't like the new T&C...then just don't register in the new forum, or make posts there. Then everything you've ever written or posted in these forums will be subject to the original T&C.

It's incredibly easy to tell the date of any post that has been made...it is included right there with the post. So anything with a date prior to the handover is subject to the old T&C; anything with a date after the handover is subject to the new T&C.

Pictures posted as a part of a thread will have the same date information, so there will be no confusion. And for avatars, so far as I'm aware, you'll need to add your avatar to the new forum, it won't be transferred automatically (someone can correct me if I'm wrong?)...so again, your avatar would only be displayed on the new forum if you've agreed to the new T&C.

So I fail entirely to see what your objections are...it is very straightforward and clear.
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
So I fail entirely to see what your objections are...it is very straightforward and clear.
Are you seriously expecting the new forum owners in 2, or 3 or however-many years to check the post date of anything they might want to reproduce?

That's the issue. It's all very well announcing who owns what, but to ensure that they do not mistakenly infringe others' rights requires the new owners to check everything they intend to deal with for post date, or some means of separating data to which they have additional rights. All I'm asking is how they intend to do that?
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Old 7th September 2014, 01:37 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Are you seriously expecting the new forum owners in 2, or 3 or however-many years to check the post date of anything they might want to reproduce?

That's the issue. It's all very well announcing who owns what, but to ensure that they do not mistakenly infringe others' rights requires the new owners to check everything they intend to deal with for post date, or some means of separating data to which they have additional rights. All I'm asking is how they intend to do that?
Frankly, this seems to be artificial problem. This was never real problem. And from technical point it was solved long ago. (SQL query + right date at lowest layer)

There is no need to do anything. No marker or anything. All one needs is date of post, which is recorded. That's it. Nothing more. And never was anything else needed.

ETA: Just slight tweak to advanced search->Find posts from to allow either arbitrary dates or include another option ("After transition")
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Old 7th September 2014, 01:59 AM   #95
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Looks all good to me

Where do I sign?
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Old 7th September 2014, 02:06 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
Yeah, that seems to be it. I just wanted to double-check that someone considered it!
Well, I did.

It is a fairly standard clause (though I simply paraphrased it). No idea why it isn't explicitly stated.
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Old 7th September 2014, 02:31 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
(SQL query
Good-O. All the new admins will be trained in use of the database and will do a query before they deal with any information.

Good-O.

Sound like an enormous pain in the neck, but if you say so....
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Old 7th September 2014, 03:43 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Are you seriously expecting the new forum owners in 2, or 3 or however-many years to check the post date of anything they might want to reproduce?
Lolly...I really don't understand what major crisis it is that you are trying to manufacture here. In order to "reproduce" a post, they must first view the post. Just as you are viewing my post right now.

Checking the post date takes a matter of one second...just take a quick glance to the left, at the top-left corner of the post, and there it is. For example, the first post in this thread was made by Darat at 4:32 p.m. on Sept. 4, 2014. Anyone who sought (for whatever reason) to reproduce that post would first have to view it (I don't know how one could reproduce it otherwise). I don't see why you think it is so terribly difficult for someone to take the one second (actually, probably less) for someone to glance over at the top-left corner to see the date it was posted.

And, of course, if someone were to reproduce such pre-transfer materials illegally, ignoring the initial T&C, then the new owners could face legal action, from demands to remove such reproduced materials, to being forced to turn over any money gained from the reproduction of such materials.

Considering that such legal problems would likely be far more troublesome and costly than any potential benefit from reproducing such materials, I honestly cannot see any rational reason why they would even want to try.

In short -- of all the mountain-out-of-molehill complaints we've been presented with, yours is likely the smallest molehill, and the biggest mountain.
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Old 7th September 2014, 04:38 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Good-O. All the new admins will be trained in use of the database and will do a query before they deal with any information.

Good-O.

Sound like an enormous pain in the neck, but if you say so....
Did you actually ignore everything else including words just after your snip?

I said at lowest level. Of course by that I mean that software has a way to limit number of posts only to relevant timespan.

Also you furthermore ignored feature of "advanced search". The one already doing what I said about SQL query. (And it would be pain in the behind to use raw output of database anyway)
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Old 7th September 2014, 04:51 AM   #100
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Also if the new owners wanted to reproduce some posts they are likely to want the recent ones. Who wants the old ones? So give the new owners a year or two on the job and the posts made in the JREF era would not be worth reproducing.
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:00 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
So if you want your old info subject to the old T&C, and don't like the new T&C...then just don't register in the new forum, or make posts there.
Hobson's choice is not I feel a good way of dealing with existing communities.
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:31 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
I really don't understand what major crisis it is that you are trying to manufacture here.
I gave feedback, as requested. I have manufactured nothing, merely tried to point out that the forum owners need to properly consider the ramifications of what it is they think they are doing, and what they are really doing.

Stop trying to explain and justify the indefensible. It's ridiculous.

They MUST get permission BEFORE they transfer any content and mix it up with content to which they will have different rights.

A PERSON is not required to infringe copyright, every time they copy it to a different server they'll be breaching it.

I don't need to explain it to anybody, they should get better legal advice as to the nature of the agreement.
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:43 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
But that is not how this is intended to happen.
Yes it is.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
The new forum is taking all content from this forum.
In a sense yes - it is taking the structure, graphics and so on all of which are copyright the JREF - and the JREF is (I believe) assigning that copyright to the new organization that will own the new forum. The JREF will also be publishing the content it has a licence to on the new forum.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
When you don't register at the new forum, does the existing content that is now published on the new forum get deleted?
No. The private information you have supplied to the JREF - First name, last name, country and state if in the USA and your email address will not be copied over to the new forum unless you agree to the new terms and conditions.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Otherwise, how will the forum owners know the content over which they have no rights? Especially in time, after the forum has been running for a while, are they going to check the publication date (is there one?
Date.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
avatars are not dated, they just change) of any photo they want to take, adapt and use as their own or are they just going to go ahead and make use of content to which they have no copyright? How are they going to differentiate between content to which they have full copyright rights and those to which they don't?
Date.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
The usual position is that you get permission, and then you deal with it. Here, they are talking about getting permission AFTER they have already acquired it. What do they intend doing with the moved content when permission is not given? (bear in mind that this includes content of users who are not active on the forum).
Nope, the JREF is merely using the "permission" you have already given it.

(This topic by the way is not the topic of this thread - you should take these concerns to the future of the forum thread as they are about the process not the actual T&Cs.)
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Are you seriously expecting the new forum owners in 2, or 3 or however-many years to check the post date of anything they might want to reproduce?
Yes. Any organisation would do, dealing with content rights is an every day thing, and in this case it is very straight forward because it is a simple check with the date.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
That's the issue. It's all very well announcing who owns what, but to ensure that they do not mistakenly infringe others' rights requires the new owners to check everything they intend to deal with for post date, or some means of separating data to which they have additional rights. All I'm asking is how they intend to do that?
By checking the date stamp on whatever content they wish to use.
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:54 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
I gave feedback, as requested. I have manufactured nothing, merely tried to point out that the forum owners need to properly consider the ramifications of what it is they think they are doing, and what they are really doing.
They have done.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
...snip...

They MUST get permission BEFORE they transfer any content and mix it up with content to which they will have different rights.
They have done or rather they have provided a publishing platform for the organisation you have already given your permission to.
... By posting on the Forum a Member grants the JREF a non-exclusive licence to publish, republish or reproduce their work, in its entirety or as the JREF sees fit, in perpetuity ....
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
A PERSON is not required to infringe copyright, every time they copy it to a different server they'll be breaching it.
I have no idea what you mean.

Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
I don't need to explain it to anybody, they should get better legal advice as to the nature of the agreement.
I you aren't willing to explain your concerns in more detail than there is nothing else for me to respond to as the concerns you seem to have been expressing have already been considered and dealt with in an appropriate (i.e. legal) manner.
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:57 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
because it is a simple check with the date.
No, it isn't. Jref has a licence to publish. Copyright is with the author.

Jref can publish on the new server pursuant to its rights.

The new owners have NO RIGHT to publish without consent. Jref can't give it, and if the author does not agree with the T&C and does not register, they haven't given it.

The day the new forum owners publish any content from any author on THIS forum from somebody who does not register on the new forum, it'll be in breach of copyright. It isn't as simple as "checking dates".
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Old 7th September 2014, 06:38 AM   #107
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Goodbye JREF, it's been real!

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Old 7th September 2014, 06:51 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Goodbye JREF, it's been real!

just fyi, the downtime about to happen is just for a server move, it will still be the JREF forum for at least a few more days (or even weeks)
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Old 7th September 2014, 06:52 AM   #109
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Old 7th September 2014, 06:58 AM   #110
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should be 162.243.32.156
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:11 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by CJW View Post
The International Skeptics Forum totally copied the JREF forum!
And pasted!! ;-)
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:11 PM   #112
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We have crossed over to other side!,?.
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:13 PM   #113
Klimax
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
No, it isn't. Jref has a licence to publish. Copyright is with the author.

Jref can publish on the new server pursuant to its rights.

The new owners have NO RIGHT to publish without consent. Jref can't give it, and if the author does not agree with the T&C and does not register, they haven't given it.

The day the new forum owners publish any content from any author on THIS forum from somebody who does not register on the new forum, it'll be in breach of copyright. It isn't as simple as "checking dates".
Those who are not registered will be marked as such. (Like guests aka unregistered already are)

And thus last remaining (remotely) valid point is dealt with, because rest was already fully answered. Those who didn't gave permission won't be published anywhere else then forum itself.

And that's all.
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:13 PM   #114
Darat
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
...snip... Jref has a licence to publish. Copyright is with the author.
That is correct.

Originally Posted by Lolly View Post

Jref can publish on the new server pursuant to its rights.
That's correct.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
The new owners have NO RIGHT to publish without consent.
That's correct.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Jref can't give it,
That's correct.

Originally Posted by Lolly View Post

and if the author does not agree with the T&C and does not register, they haven't given it.
This is the part you've got confused about.

The JREF is republishing the content it has a licence to (that's the licence you and all the rest of us have agreed to grant the JREF) on the new forum. The JREF is not trying to nor wants to assign its licence to the new forum owners.
Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
The day the new forum owners publish any content from any author on THIS forum from somebody who does not register on the new forum, it'll be in breach of copyright. It isn't as simple as "checking dates".
This is why I use the book analogy. The JREF does not have a printing press so if it wanted to (as it has a licence to do) to publish the contents of the JREF Forum in book form it would use a publisher to print and distribute that book. Think of the new forum being the book publisher - it does not get any rights to the content the JREF provides for republishing.
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:25 PM   #115
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Lolly View Post
Good-O. All the new admins will be trained in use of the database and will do a query before they deal with any information.

Good-O.

Sound like an enormous pain in the neck, but if you say so....
Do you imagine that re-licensing is going to be a full time job for the admin team? What are you thinking? I'm sure this forum isn't flooded with requests to sub license posts. The future owners of the forum are likely to need to worry about transferring the license approximately one half time. Either once or not at all.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 7th September 2014 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:35 PM   #116
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I think it was on this thread -- not sure -- that people have been talking about clicking on some consent button at the bottom of some page.

Which page was that?

I didn't see that button on the bottom of the ISF Draft Terms etc. pdf.

Is there anything else I need to do to stay on the new forum other than show up?
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:36 PM   #117
Darat
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
I think it was on this thread -- not sure -- that people have been talking about clicking on some consent button at the bottom of some page.

Which page was that?

I didn't see that button on the bottom of the ISF Draft Terms etc. pdf.

Is there anything else I need to do to stay on the new forum other than show up?
Nothing to do at all at the moment - it will only be once the ownership of the forum has been transferred that you will have to agree to the new T&Cs.
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:37 PM   #118
RecoveringYuppy
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I don't think you're going to need to do that until forum ownership changes.

Ninja'd
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Old 7th September 2014, 12:40 PM   #119
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cool.
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Old 7th September 2014, 05:36 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
it does not get any rights to the content the JREF provides for republishing.
AND the minute the new owners publish it they breach copyright. "They won't be published anywhere else than forum itself" is nonsense.

PUBLICATION ON A FORUM BY ANYONE OTHER THAN THE JREF IS A BREACH OF COPYRIGHT. PUBLICATION ON THE FORUM ITSELF IS A BREACH OF COPYRIGHT.

You can't mark people as "guests" or "unregistered" to something they never joined, and have never visited and which is breaching their copyright by re-publishing content without any right to do so. You can't mark them as anything at all.

WHO EXACTLY ARE THE NEW OWNERS? Not some corporation name, who is actually doing this?
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