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Old 5th December 2019, 10:03 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Because I have never seen the process experimentally replicated. If it is possible let's see a demolition company do it. And how did you arrive at the conclusion that it is possible? All the government propaganda you imbibe.
We arrive at the conclusion that the WTC collapses were possible in the real world application because we have empirical documentation on construction material properties and construction methods to corroborate real world observations of the actual event. The WTC attacks were the first instances of deranged people intentionally ramming planes into the upper stories of two sky scrapers at full speed. They are firsts for flash ignition of several stories. They are firsts for adding high velocity impact damage to the fire factor. Your idea that one needs a precedent to empirically prove is flawed and one dimensional. It is inconsiderate of data we already have available to us to make reasoned arguments to understand the engineering angle of the event
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
ignorance (technical) led them to not understand what they saw. To them it was like a Hollywood production - special effects... which can make anything look real.

Soon they hopped on the bandwagon that these collapses were impossible without CD type assistance. And they were done.

These types are NOT interesting in learning or understanding... only in whatever justifications they can come up with including the bogus material injected into the discussion but the likes of Szamboti, Ross, Cole, Harrit, Jones, et al and most recently Hulsey... who present flawed analysis which seems to only fool the people who WANT to believe it and be fooled.

These collapses were chaotic and had large elements of randomness, lack of hard data sets from transducers. All the explanations were educated "guesses" and some better than others but most with internal consistency. That is to say there was no single path or chain of events. These collapses unfolded like an avalanche.

It's been apparent for years now that they are unwilling to learn, unwilling to discuss and stipulate to facts, unwilling to accept anything that in anyway resembles how the events were described by "official" sources. You can't change minds which are clapped shut. Why even try?
Exactly, like many Conspiracy theorists.
A simple IBM punch Card Proved Birtherism wrong yet the continued the lies for years for political gain.
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Old 28th December 2019, 12:31 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"No-planers". Holographic planes? Give me a break.

But what about the satellite-mounted Tesla weapons? The mini-nukes?

I don't know, it almost sounds like the kind of thing that might be promoted via slick websites and the like to discredit more sober and grounded scepticism of the 'official' conspiracy theory. Well-poisoning IOW.
I know. right? I smell "Zionists".
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Old 29th April 2020, 06:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Could you please tell us exactly of what you need to find a real-world example, please?

By this I mean: Enumerate and spell out fully the objective criteria by which you decide whether or not an example meets your expectations.
I want someone to destroy a steel-framed high-rise with fire and get it to collapse like World Trade Tower 7. If nobody knows how to do this then the science is not well understood and it is an open question.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
We know how structures behave under various loading conditions. We know how steel members behave from heating. We know that the various possible interactions in these chaotic, complex events can only be approximated at best. So we can never expect a perfect model when it comes to the collapse of the WTCs. A good theory is enough from the available evidence, tanabear.
It might be complex but demolition experts still know how to bring down steel-framed buildings with demolition charges, but they don't know how to do this with fire. If bringing a building down by fire was just as well understood as with demolition charges then this could be easily demonstrated. Yet, almost two decades and counting and not a single example. It is almost as elusive as Bigfoot.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
How about this for precedent: show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what 9/11 truthers allege? We're talking hijackers flying planes into explosive rigged buildings.

Until then you are merely a conspiracy theory peddler.
Well, the 9/11 attacks did happen, we aren't disputing that. I am just positing a different set of perpetrators. You still believe it was a conspiracy just with different actors.

Can you show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what official story of 9/11 alleges?

Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
There's nothing that singles out Madeupans among all humans as invulnerable to cancer. Similarly, there's nothing that singles out steel-framed high rises among all steel-framed structures as invulnerable to fire..
Steel-framed buildings can burn and experience lots of devastation from fire, but they do not collapse in a manner like WTC7. If so, no example has been forthcoming. But in reality we do know what steel-framed buildings look like after they have experienced a raging inferno. They look like the Windsor Tower in Madrid or One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. These are examples of what steel-framed buildings look like after they have been gutted by fire. WTC7 is what a building looks like after it has been demolished.

Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
We arrive at the conclusion that the WTC collapses were possible in the real world application because we have empirical documentation on construction material properties and construction methods to corroborate real world observations of the actual event.
It is not the construction methods that we need empirical documentation for, but the destruction methods. All the steel columns, girders and beams should have been analyzed after the collapse. They weren't. NIST did their study without being able to examine any of the physical evidence. All of the evidence being hauled and shipped away, save one piece of steel, is very suspicious in of itself.

Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
The WTC attacks were the first instances of deranged people intentionally ramming planes into the upper stories of two sky scrapers at full speed. They are firsts for flash ignition of several stories. They are firsts for adding high velocity impact damage to the fire factor. Your idea that one needs a precedent to empirically prove is flawed and one dimensional. It is inconsiderate of data we already have available to us to make reasoned arguments to understand the engineering angle of the event
You can have a "reasoned argument" as a hypothesis, but you still have to prove it. A "reasoned argument" is not a repeatable scientific experiment. NIST was tasked with the requirement to show how and why the buildings collapsed and they failed. Plus, you are confusing in some ways the uniqueness of the event with the severity of the event. There have been many buildings that have been bombed out in wartime yet none have ever experienced a "crush-down, crush-up".
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Old 29th April 2020, 08:53 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I want someone to destroy a steel-framed high-rise with fire and get it to collapse like World Trade Tower 7. If nobody knows how to do this then the science is not well understood and it is an open question.
It's not an open question to those who understand the science. And it wasn't just a fire, there was structural damage.


Quote:
It might be complex but demolition experts still know how to bring down steel-framed buildings with demolition charges, but they don't know how to do this with fire. If bringing a building down by fire was just as well understood as with demolition charges then this could be easily demonstrated. Yet, almost two decades and counting and not a single example.
Two problems, WTC7 was a unique design, there are few buildings with similar construction specs. The other problem is that this is the 21st Century, and most high rise buildings have effective fire suppression, most of which has been upgraded thanks to the NIST Report's recommendations.

Should point out there hasn't been another successful hijacking of a passenger jetliner since 9/11/2001.

You point is moot.

Quote:
It is almost as elusive as Bigfoot.
Bigfoot knows Al Qaeda did it.

Quote:
Well, the 9/11 attacks did happen, we aren't disputing that. I am just positing a different set of perpetrators. You still believe it was a conspiracy just with different actors.

Can you show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what official story of 9/11 alleges?
In what way was the Plane's Operation complex? Had KSM known how successful the operation would be they would have hijacked 50 planes instead of 4. What makes you think a bunch of college educated men driven by religious fanaticism couldn't put together a simple plan wherein they learned to fly, did recon on numerous cross-country flights, and then executed the plan with a 75% success rate?

Quote:
Steel-framed buildings can burn and experience lots of devastation from fire, but they do not collapse in a manner like WTC7.
Blah, blah, blah.


Quote:
If so, no example has been forthcoming. But in reality we do know what steel-framed buildings look like after they have experienced a raging inferno. They look like the Windsor Tower in Madrid or One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. These are examples of what steel-framed buildings look like after they have been gutted by fire. WTC7 is what a building looks like after it has been demolished.
Explain in detail how these buildings are a match for WTC7's structural design, and please include the structural damages which initiated the fires.

Quote:
It is not the construction methods that we need empirical documentation for, but the destruction methods.
If you don't know how it was built you'll never know how it collapsed. Demolitions crews look at blueprints FIRST in order to safely pre-cut structural supports, and to precisely place the charges.

Quote:
All the steel columns, girders and beams should have been analyzed after the collapse. They weren't. NIST did their study without being able to examine any of the physical evidence. All of the evidence being hauled and shipped away, save one piece of steel, is very suspicious in of itself.
Nobody died in WTC7, which is why nobody cares. No reason to save ALL of the steel when you saw the crime take place on live TV, and in person. The NYPD Bomb Squad was right there at WTC7 when it came down.

Quote:
You can have a "reasoned argument" as a hypothesis, but you still have to prove it. A "reasoned argument" is not a repeatable scientific experiment. NIST was tasked with the requirement to show how and why the buildings collapsed and they failed.
Did they?

In 19 years nobody has done a better study. In 19 years structural and physical computer modeling has improved to provide superior results for less money, so where are the new research models proving WTC7 was CD? What has A&E Truth done with all of that money they've raised for a new investigation? 911 Truthers are all about their crusade until it involves getting off their butts and doing real work of any kind.

Where are the new interviews with surviving FDNY personnel?
Where are the new interviews with NYPD?
Where are the new interviews with survivors of the Twin Towers?

Spoiler: There are new interviews every September with those people, and the story is still the same. Why is that?


Quote:
Plus, you are confusing in some ways the uniqueness of the event with the severity of the event. There have been many buildings that have been bombed out in wartime yet none have ever experienced a "crush-down, crush-up".
Do we really need to explain the difference between a air-dropped bomb and a 767 full of fuel? If we do then that's very sad.
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Old 29th April 2020, 10:48 PM   #86
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The no evidence approach ends with fantasy

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I want someone to destroy a steel-framed high-rise with fire and get it to collapse like World Trade Tower 7. If nobody knows how to do this then the science is not well understood and it is an open question.
You have had over 18 years to gain a degree and PhD in fire science, and structural engineering - if you had you would not make this question based on lack of knowledge. Fire destroys the strength of steel and WTC fires were not fought. You are proved wrong by WTC collapse, and you don't know it.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
It might be complex but demolition experts still know how to bring down steel-framed buildings with demolition charges, but they don't know how to do this with fire. If bringing a building down by fire was just as well understood as with demolition charges then this could be easily demonstrated. Yet, almost two decades and counting and not a single example. It is almost as elusive as Bigfoot.
Yes fire can be used to destroy buildings, and you have no idea why. Double down on your lack of fire science, steel, and structural engineering. Yes, you can use the same evidence for Bigfoot as you do with 9/11. = zero

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Well, the 9/11 attacks did happen, we aren't disputing that. I am just positing a different set of perpetrators. You still believe it was a conspiracy just with different actors.
And who did your fantasy version of 9/11? Got some evidence? No

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Can you show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what official story of 9/11 alleges?
Wow, 9/11 was complex, and took tons of money...
Complex 9/11 plot.
1. Take planes
2. Crash planes
cut throats with $5 knife.
Wow, Now I see why you can't grasp reality, it is too Complex... (for 9/11 truth fantasy no evidence people)

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Steel-framed buildings can burn and experience lots of devastation from fire, but they do not collapse in a manner like WTC7. If so, no example has been forthcoming. But in reality we do know what steel-framed buildings look like after they have experienced a raging inferno. They look like the Windsor Tower in Madrid or One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. These are examples of what steel-framed buildings look like after they have been gutted by fire. WTC7 is what a building looks like after it has been demolished.
The steel only parts of Madrid Windsor building collapse in an hour or two - the rest of the Windsor building had a concrete core, and the fire was fought - WTC 7 no concrete core, oh my, WTC 7, no fire fighting. You failed big time, big fail to see Madrid fire was fought... darn, you do anything other than make up lies and fantasy? No

One Meridian Plaza was totaled by fire. Darn, that means it was destroyed by fire, and you failed to realize the fire was fought. WTC 7 fire not fought! Do you understand why we leave buildings on fire, they might collapse. In fact the firemen at One Meridian Plaza feared it would collapse and fought the fire from other building, do you read and study the fire reports or make up your fantasy without any effort?

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
It is not the construction methods that we need empirical documentation for, but the destruction methods. All the steel columns, girders and beams should have been analyzed after the collapse. They weren't. NIST did their study without being able to examine any of the physical evidence. All of the evidence being hauled and shipped away, save one piece of steel, is very suspicious in of itself.
Analyse for what? They studied the steel, you must of missed what happen and failed to read NIST. There were no explosives found, no evidence on any steel seen of explosives or thermite - you lost this round due to fantasy and lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
You can have a "reasoned argument" as a hypothesis, but you still have to prove it. A "reasoned argument" is not a repeatable scientific experiment. NIST was tasked with the requirement to show how and why the buildings collapsed and they failed. Plus, you are confusing in some ways the uniqueness of the event with the severity of the event. There have been many buildings that have been bombed out in wartime yet none have ever experienced a "crush-down, crush-up".
NIST found it was fire. Now we know you failed to read NIST. You failed, but you can use the same evidence you don't have for 9/11, for Bigfoot, or Flat Earth, etc, ... your evidence appears to be ignorance on the topic required to understand fire, steel, structural engineering, physics etc...
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:01 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
There's nothing that singles out Madeupans among all humans as invulnerable to cancer. Similarly, there's nothing that singles out steel-framed high rises among all steel-framed structures as invulnerable to fire..
Steel-framed buildings can burn and experience lots of devastation from fire, but they do not collapse in a manner like WTC7. If so, no example has been forthcoming. But in reality we do know what steel-framed buildings look like after they have experienced a raging inferno. They look like the Windsor Tower in Madrid or One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. These are examples of what steel-framed buildings look like after they have been gutted by fire. WTC7 is what a building looks like after it has been demolished.
Very wrong.

The Windsor Tower in Madrid was a mixed structure of a concrete core and a steel perimeter, and the firefighters fought the fire in the lower part of the tower. Guess what part collapsed?

Hint:




The One Meridian Plaza fire was fought, and even then, there were internal collapses.

The Plasco building in Teheran is a steel building that collapsed completely.




Steel buildings are, if anything, more vulnerable to fire than regular buildings.
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:53 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I want someone to destroy a steel-framed high-rise with fire and get it to collapse like World Trade Tower 7. If nobody knows how to do this then the science is not well understood and it is an open question.
Unless it's built like WTC7, up to and including being the same size (structures don't scale intuitively), then it won't collapse like WTC7.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
It might be complex but demolition experts still know how to bring down steel-framed buildings with demolition charges, but they don't know how to do this with fire. If bringing a building down by fire was just as well understood as with demolition charges then this could be easily demonstrated. Yet, almost two decades and counting and not a single example.
That's very nicely phrased to deceive. Demolition experts know very well that explosives are good at bringing down buildings, of whatever construction, controllably, so that they fall where they won't damage surrounding structures. They're also, I suspect, pretty much aware that simply setting fire to a building and letting it burn, while it may ultimately destroy the building, could very easily also destroy any other damn thing in the neighborhood. That, rather than ignorance of technique, is why they don't even bother trying it.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Well, the 9/11 attacks did happen, we aren't disputing that. I am just positing a different set of perpetrators. You still believe it was a conspiracy just with different actors.

Can you show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what official story of 9/11 alleges?
I can show you plenty of hypotheticals that are at least one, usually two or three, orders of magnitude more complex: every 9/11 alternative theory ever constructed. Don't try pretending the actual events of 9/11 were too complex to be plausible, because you're machine-gunning youself in the foot.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Steel-framed buildings can burn and experience lots of devastation from fire, but they do not collapse in a manner like WTC7. If so, no example has been forthcoming. But in reality we do know what steel-framed buildings look like after they have experienced a raging inferno. They look like the Windsor Tower in Madrid or One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. These are examples of what steel-framed buildings look like after they have been gutted by fire. WTC7 is what a building looks like after it has been demolished.
And now we're into the realms of the simply untrue. See above; experience indicates that steel framed buildings are, in fact, more susceptible to fire damage than concrete, brick, stone or, in some circumstances, even wood.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
All the steel columns, girders and beams should have been analyzed after the collapse. They weren't. NIST did their study without being able to examine any of the physical evidence. All of the evidence being hauled and shipped away, save one piece of steel, is very suspicious in of itself.
And more untruths. These assertions usually come from the same people who cite analysis results on WTC7 steel showing signs of thermite damage (which, of course, they don't); would you like to mention that while you're claiming that none of the steel was examined?

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
You can have a "reasoned argument" as a hypothesis, but you still have to prove it.
As opposed to 9/11 truthers, who seem to think that they don't have to prove arguments that show no trace of reason.

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Old 30th April 2020, 05:58 AM   #89
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How is leaving a building that has had tons of debris drop on it that was left to burn collapsing so confusing for people? Why does this need to be replicated?

Metal softens when heated. People have known this fact for centuries. Maybe even millennia. If something softens enough, it will buckle and not support itself. That's just common sense.
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Old 30th April 2020, 06:36 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by heymatto70 View Post
How is leaving a building that has had tons of debris drop on it that was left to burn collapsing so confusing for people? Why does this need to be replicated?

Metal softens when heated. People have known this fact for centuries. Maybe even millennia. If something softens enough, it will buckle and not support itself. That's just common sense.
Horseshoes, knives, swords, and spears were all made with fire.

If someone claims fire doesn't soften metal, they're ignoring thousands of years of history.
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Old 30th April 2020, 06:39 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by heymatto70 View Post
How is leaving a building that has had tons of debris drop on it that was left to burn collapsing so confusing for people?
Because they don't want to understand. They want the special feeling that goes with being a party to forbidden knowledge, but in order to get it they not only have to make the forbidden knowledge up for themselves, but also discard any commonplace knowledge that happens to contradict it.

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Old 30th April 2020, 09:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's very nicely phrased to deceive. Demolition experts know very well that explosives are good at bringing down buildings, of whatever construction, controllably, so that they fall where they won't damage surrounding structures. They're also, I suspect, pretty much aware that simply setting fire to a building and letting it burn, while it may ultimately destroy the building, could very easily also destroy any other damn thing in the neighborhood. That, rather than ignorance of technique, is why they don't even bother trying it.
And there are structures that are actually brought down by fire.

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Old 30th April 2020, 10:08 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I want someone to destroy a steel-framed high-rise with fire and get it to collapse like World Trade Tower 7. If nobody knows how to do this then the science is not well understood and it is an open question.



It might be complex but demolition experts still know how to bring down steel-framed buildings with demolition charges, but they don't know how to do this with fire. If bringing a building down by fire was just as well understood as with demolition charges then this could be easily demonstrated. Yet, almost two decades and counting and not a single example. It is almost as elusive as Bigfoot.



Well, the 9/11 attacks did happen, we aren't disputing that. I am just positing a different set of perpetrators. You still believe it was a conspiracy just with different actors.

Can you show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what official story of 9/11 alleges?



Steel-framed buildings can burn and experience lots of devastation from fire, but they do not collapse in a manner like WTC7. If so, no example has been forthcoming. But in reality we do know what steel-framed buildings look like after they have experienced a raging inferno. They look like the Windsor Tower in Madrid or One Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia. These are examples of what steel-framed buildings look like after they have been gutted by fire. WTC7 is what a building looks like after it has been demolished.



It is not the construction methods that we need empirical documentation for, but the destruction methods. All the steel columns, girders and beams should have been analyzed after the collapse. They weren't. NIST did their study without being able to examine any of the physical evidence. All of the evidence being hauled and shipped away, save one piece of steel, is very suspicious in of itself.



You can have a "reasoned argument" as a hypothesis, but you still have to prove it. A "reasoned argument" is not a repeatable scientific experiment. NIST was tasked with the requirement to show how and why the buildings collapsed and they failed. Plus, you are confusing in some ways the uniqueness of the event with the severity of the event. There have been many buildings that have been bombed out in wartime yet none have ever experienced a "crush-down, crush-up".
So, in order to prove to you that the WTC7 collapse happened the way the "official story" says it happened, we need to reoncstruct at least one of the WTC1 an WTC2 (I don't remember which tower's debris initiated the fire in WTC7), and WTC7, crash an airliner with a full load of fuel into the reconstructed tower, and see if the tower and WTC7 collapse like they did the first time. That task is certainly beyond my abilities, but I think there are people on this site with enough engineering experience to pull it off, given the necessary funding.

How would you like to pay for that?
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Old 30th April 2020, 10:16 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So, in order to prove to you that the WTC7 collapse happened the way the "official story" says it happened, we need to reoncstruct at least one of the WTC1 an WTC2 (I don't remember which tower's debris initiated the fire in WTC7), WTC7, crash an airliner with a full load of fuel into the reconstructed tower, and see if the tower and WTC7 collapse like they did the first time.
We'll need WTC5 as well, because IIRC a lot of the fires in WTC7 are thought to have been started by radiant heat from WTC5. And, of course, we'll need to reproduce the starting conditions exactly, because having spent a couple of billion dollars setting up the scenario, the truthers will be on the lookout for miniscule, insignificant variations in the collapse (like, for example, the building rotating to the south fractionally slower than on 9/11) so they can declare that the NIST theory is debunked and explosives were needed to make the building behave precisely as it did on 9/11 which, for some unfathomable reason, was a vital and necessary part of the plot because a rotation rate 10% slower of a falling building would mean we never got to invade Afghanistan to build a pipeline that we didn't actually need and we never actually built. And, of course, they'll be helped in this by the fact that the way they insist the building fell is quite different to the way it actually fell (they still like to pretend it fell perfectly vertically and symmetrically into its own footprint even though it didn't), so if the collapse differs from either (which it must, because they aren't the same) they'll cry foul.

Dishonestly constructed questions are not generally worth answering.

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Old 30th April 2020, 10:53 AM   #95
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[quote=tanabear;13073067]


Quote:
Can you show me a single conspiracy in history that is as complex and successful as what official story of 9/11 alleges?
I can. A extremely successful conspiracy and in many ways was
executed with the exact same military precision as 9-11. And like 9-11, nobody knows or saw nothing.

The operation was likewise completely hidden from the public eyes but the result was astonishing on many fronts,
and the consequences and scars are still very visible 50 years later.
This operation was controlled by the invisible "secret hands" of traitorous minions in the employ of multiple military,
government and police departments including conspirators in multiple countries. Exactly as complex and complicated as 9-11-2001 and
completely unknown to the millions of victims.
A 100 percent successful conspiracy.



Operation "long silver train"
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Old 30th April 2020, 11:19 AM   #96
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[quote=Fonebone;13073898]
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post


I can. A extremely successful conspiracy and in many ways was
executed with the exact same military precision as 9-11. And like 9-11, nobody knows or saw nothing.

The operation was likewise completely hidden from the public eyes but the result was astonishing on many fronts,
and the consequences and scars are still very visible 50 years later.
This operation was controlled by the invisible "secret hands" of traitorous minions in the employ of multiple military,
government and police departments including conspirators in multiple countries. Exactly as complex and complicated as 9-11-2001 and
completely unknown to the millions of victims.
A 100 percent successful conspiracy.



Operation "long silver train"
A successful conspiracy, but not one you're suggesting. A number of Muslins trained by KSM and funded by OBL, to hijack airliners and crash them into building in the Washington D.C. are. Three accomplished one failed. No government planning and or supervision/coverup was involved. It has been over 18 years and NOBODY in any conceived position has stepped forward to give evidence to this fact of history.
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:04 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
A extremely successful conspiracy and in many ways was
Nope, they hit 75% of the targets. You don't seem to have grasp on math.

QUOTE=Fonebone;13073898] executed with the exact same military precision as 9-11. [/quote] Nope, the flying was sloppy, sloppy airspeed control, sloppy bank control, ... that is not precision, it is Sloppy.

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
And like 9-11, nobody knows or saw nothing.
oops, wrong again, it was caught on film, and video. Why do you lie and make up false claims?

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
The operation was likewise completely hidden from the public eyes but the result was astonishing on many fronts,
Nope, it was caught live, and on film... it was also caught on Radar, you don't seem to have a working knowledge of Radar, and the USA airspace.

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
and the consequences and scars are still very visible 50 years later.
You might need a better calendar.

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
This operation was controlled by the invisible "secret hands" of traitorous minions in the employ of multiple military,
government and police departments including conspirators in multiple countries.
Minions? Is that five or six big lies?

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Exactly as complex and complicated as 9-11-2001 and
What are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
completely unknown to the millions of victims.
Better get help with math.

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
A 100 percent successful conspiracy.
Nope, the conspiriacy got UBL killed. That is 100 percent fail. And the bad pilots only hit 75% of their targets. Get help with Math!

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Operation "long silver train"
What the heck is this?
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:09 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post

Operation "long silver train"
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
What the heck is this?
Seconded.
fonebone, what are you talking about?
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:20 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I want someone to destroy a steel-framed high-rise with fire and get it to collapse like World Trade Tower 7. If nobody knows how to do this then the science is not well understood and it is an open question.
You replaced one set of unspecific, vague pronouncement with another, where I asked you to "[e]numerate and spell out fully the objective criteria by which you decide whether or not an example meets your expectations".

So now: Could you please tell us exactly of what you need to find an experimental collapse to be "like WTC7"?

By this I mean: Enumerate and spell out fully the objective criteria by which you decide whether or not an experimental collapse meets your expectations in being "like" WTC7!

You understand, don't you, that WTC7 was 47 stories tall and had a mass on an order of magnitude of 100,000 tons, and it would cost on the order of US$ 100,000,000 to reproduce WTC7 - and of course even then, no two collapses would be exactly the same - so we need for you to specify in actionable terms what deviations from observations you'd accept. Also, whether you would accept a far smaller model, which of course would have to be VERY different from WTC7 just to account fairly for scaling issues!

You have not thought this through at all - have you?
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:45 PM   #100
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Why not scout around for a high rise over 35 floors slatted for demolition and propose the the owners... in the interest of science and history to let the building burn from fires on floors below 14 filled with "office" contents... disable the sprinklers.. and let it burn for 8 hours.

You could locate all sorts of cameras and thermo couples to study the building.

It will either burn out and stand or the fire will cause structural failures and collapse.... pretty much straight down.

No cheating allowed!
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Old 30th April 2020, 11:42 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Why not scout around for a high rise over 35 floors slatted for demolition and propose the the owners... in the interest of science and history to let the building burn from fires on floors below 14 filled with "office" contents... disable the sprinklers.. and let it burn for 8 hours.

You could locate all sorts of cameras and thermo couples to study the building.

It will either burn out and stand or the fire will cause structural failures and collapse.... pretty much straight down.

No cheating allowed!
Honest question:

How much work and how expensive would it be to program a state-of-the-art computer simulation, or series of simulations today?

Just ball park.
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Old 1st May 2020, 01:06 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
[Ö]Exactly as complex and complicated as 9-11-2001 and
completely unknown to the millions of victims.
A 100 percent successful conspiracy.



Operation "long silver train"
So, what you're claiming is, the al-Qaeda conspiracy to attack American targets by hijacking airliners, as expounded in the conventional narrative of 9/11 is completely plausible because similar conspiracies have occurred in the past, right? Glad we got that cleared up; there is no reason to reject the hypothesis that al-Qaeda perpetrated the 9/11 attacks on grounds of complexity.

I love it when conspiracy theorists lose track of which side of the argument they're on.

Dave
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Old 1st May 2020, 01:14 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
What the heck is this?
Nearest I can guess is that he's claiming that The Doobie Brothers are a 100% successful conspiracy, as complex and complicated and executed with the same military precision as 9/11 while completely hidden from the public eye and kept secret for 50 years. I think he may be wrong, I'm pretty sure I heard Long Train Runnin' quite a few years ago, so I think somebody may have blabbed.

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Old 1st May 2020, 02:23 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Why not scout around for a high rise over 35 floors slatted for demolition and propose the the owners... in the interest of science and history to let the building burn from fires on floors below 14 filled with "office" contents... disable the sprinklers.. and let it burn for 8 hours.

You could locate all sorts of cameras and thermo couples to study the building.

It will either burn out and stand or the fire will cause structural failures and collapse.... pretty much straight down.

No cheating allowed!
There is no way to get a conclusive answer that way. The scenario is too complex with too many variables affecting the outcome. We do know 3 cases :-) when it ended with virtually identical result - the buildings collapsing virtually in their own footprint. But that is rather small base for a responsible statistical proof and I would't bet a single dollar on the same happening for the forth time. Let's live with the fact we had a chaotic event (as a technical term) and never will be able to replicate or model it with any reasonable degree of accuracy.
I believe the circumstantial (?) evidence for the "official" version is overwhelmingly strong as opposed the circumstantial evidence for anything else. All the discussions at this point are an obscene waste of time.

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Old 1st May 2020, 03:32 AM   #105
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The long silver train operation wasn't 100% successful. As I recall it was foiled by a book editor and a thief.
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Old 1st May 2020, 04:08 AM   #106
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I doubt that truthers would accept the results of any computer simulation...no matter how advanced. But one that literally looked exactly like the real world event would certainly be better than what NIST published.

The WTC towers did not have garden variety structures despite being "steel frames". My hunch is that their structures played a "role" in their own collapses. For one these 3 towers were core an hull with long span column free office space where the perimeter supported half the floor loads. WT7 was a 40 story tower erected over a huge electric sub station which required transfer massive "beams/trusses" because columns could not penetrate the sub station equipment. So it's entirely possible that "garden variety" steel framed high rises might fare better or last longer in unfought fires. Also fires are somewhat "organic" in how they move through a building and this would influence how the structure would respond.
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Old 1st May 2020, 07:16 AM   #107
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Did any construction firm with the skills to pull off taking down the WTC go out of business shortly after 9/11 due to the mysterious deaths of all of their employees?

Can we get back to the truth? It was Rodan. It's the only model that fits all of the facts.
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Old 1st May 2020, 07:31 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
And there are structures that are actually brought down by fire.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

You're joking -- Right ?
Stop the video on the 4:48 timestamp and describe what you see.
Then stop the vid at the 5:24 timestamp and again,describe what you see.
Yes structures can be brought down by fire--IF carefully prepared for demolition beforehand.
Here, the foundation of the chimney was carefully carved out and the foundation masonry
that supports the structure were replaced with wooden vertical and horizontal bracing keeping
the entire structure plumb.

The tire and rubbish fire was ignited and the wooden temporary foundation was slowly burned out
allowing the chimney to obey the law of gravity to tilt the structure cocking the trigger.
When the wooden temporary foundation could no longer support the chimney the structure fell in the desired location.
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Last edited by Fonebone; 1st May 2020 at 07:41 AM. Reason: insert comma
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Old 1st May 2020, 07:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
You're joking -- Right ?
Stop the video on the 4:48 timestamp and describe what you see.
Then stop the vid at the 5:24 timestamp and again,describe what you see.
Yes structures can be brought down by fire--IF carefully prepared for demolition beforehand.
Here, the foundation of the chimney was carefully carved out and the foundation masonry
that supports the structure were replaced with wooden vertical and horizontal bracing keeping
the entire structure plumb.

The tire and rubbish fire was ignited and the wooden temporary foundation was slowly burned out
allowing the chimney to obey the law of gravity to the structure to tilt, cocking the trigger.
When the wooden temporary foundation could no longer support the chimney the structure fell.
So it is your untrained opinion that steel structed buildings can not collapse due to fires alone?
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Old 1st May 2020, 07:37 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Yes structures can be brought down by fire--IF carefully prepared for demolition beforehand.
You missed the word "controllably". The preparation beforehand in a demolition is not just to make sure the building falls down, but also to make sure that it falls down without damaging other structures nearby. All three of the major collapses on 9/11 involved very large amounts of damage to surrounding structures, suggesting that no such preparation was done.

Hell, all this was stated ad nauseam years ago. Some people are very careful not to learn.

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Old 1st May 2020, 09:16 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Operation "long silver train"

Supertrain? That didn't last fifty years. It didn't even last one season.

The new Snowpiercer series might be better. We'll have to wait and see.
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Old 1st May 2020, 09:21 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Seconded.
fonebone, what are you talking about?
If you Google the phrase "long silver train", you do not get a result. QED: The "long silver train" conspiracy has been successfully hidden. How successful it was in execution also remains a mystery.

(Just helping out.)
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Old 1st May 2020, 10:12 AM   #113
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[quote=Gord_in_Toronto;13075175]
Quote:
If you Google the phrase "long silver train", you do not get a result.
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
If you Google the phrase "long silver train", you do not get a result. QED: The "long silver train" conspiracy has been successfully hidden. How successful it was in execution also remains a mystery. QED: The "long silver train" conspiracy has been successfully hidden. How successful it was in execution also remains a mystery.

(Just helping out.)

Allow me to return the favor

https://www.google.com/search?client...ilver+train%22
returns--
https://books.google.com/books?id=oU...ain%22&f=false

Prologue excerpt:
....The arrangement proved entirely satisfactory to all concerned, especially president Richard Nixon,
who never discovered he had saluted a consignment of narcotics.
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Old 1st May 2020, 11:07 AM   #114
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[quote=Fonebone;13075247]
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post


Allow me to return the favor

https://www.google.com/search?client...ilver+train%22
returns--
https://books.google.com/books?id=oU...ain%22&f=false

Prologue excerpt:
....The arrangement proved entirely satisfactory to all concerned, especially president Richard Nixon,
who never discovered he had saluted a consignment of narcotics.
And there is this review:
Quote:
An interesting tale of the drug cartels attempting to put a compromised politician into the white house and the documentary film maker whose quest for truth puts him in the middle of the fracas.

The book is well written and researched. Unlike some books involving the drug cartels which contain distractingly awful omissions or mistakes the story here has enough detail to draw you in and involve you without involving absurd fantasy or violence for the sake of violence.
My bolding, of course. There is no CT. You mentioned Nixon, and there the CT falls flat as he was elected over a very disjointed Democratic party. HHH could not get of Minnesota in the minds of voters and was shackled with the war. Too bad you don't read history instead of fantasies.
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Old 1st May 2020, 11:07 AM   #115
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[quote=Fonebone;13075247]
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post


Allow me to return the favor

https://www.google.com/search?client...ilver+train%22
returns--
https://books.google.com/books?id=oU...ain%22&f=false

Prologue excerpt:
....The arrangement proved entirely satisfactory to all concerned, especially president Richard Nixon,
who never discovered he had saluted a consignment of narcotics.
Wow, well I'm convinced.

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Old 1st May 2020, 11:45 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I doubt that truthers would accept the results of any computer simulation...no matter how advanced. But one that literally looked exactly like the real world event would certainly be better than what NIST published.

The WTC towers did not have garden variety structures despite being "steel frames". My hunch is that their structures played a "role" in their own collapses. For one these 3 towers were core an hull with long span column free office space where the perimeter supported half the floor loads. WT7 was a 40 story tower erected over a huge electric sub station which required transfer massive "beams/trusses" because columns could not penetrate the sub station equipment. So it's entirely possible that "garden variety" steel framed high rises might fare better or last longer in unfought fires. Also fires are somewhat "organic" in how they move through a building and this would influence how the structure would respond.

That is what NIST hints at in their recommendations section of their report. The subtext is that corners were cut when the city changed their codes to allow the structures to be built. All you have to do is look at the new WTC towers and the many changes made.

To be fair, if Al Qaeda hadn't attacked the towers they'd still be there today. They were designed to take a glancing strike from a 707, but it wasn't - and isn't realistic to design a building based on the worst possible scenario because that scenario will always change.
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Old 1st May 2020, 11:52 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
That is what NIST hints at in their recommendations section of their report. The subtext is that corners were cut when the city changed their codes to allow the structures to be built. All you have to do is look at the new WTC towers and the many changes made.

To be fair, if Al Qaeda hadn't attacked the towers they'd still be there today. They were designed to take a glancing strike from a 707, but it wasn't - and isn't realistic to design a building based on the worst possible scenario because that scenario will always change.
Actually I believe the twin towers did not confirm to NYC building codes because they were owned and built by PANYNJ and were granted exceptions for code.

Hints at? Why hint? Why not explain how the structural designs played a very significant role in the FORM of the collapse and that traditional... garden variety steel frame high rise design might have survived (longer)...???
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:18 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
A very small, limited operation, then, with very little chance of being discovered and involving a relatively small number of people. A lot more, in fact, like the recruiting and training of nineteen operatives to execute a simple hi-jacking plan than the absurdly complicated contraptions of holograms, concealed missiles, tons of covertly planted explosives, tens of thousands of operatives and all the world's governments, media and indeed citizens complicit in the coverup that conspiracy theorists like to think of as plausible.

Dave
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:37 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Actually I believe the twin towers did not confirm to NYC building codes because they were owned and built by PANYNJ and were granted exceptions for code.

<snip>
Could you link some information, I searched and could find anything on building code exceptions.
Thanks
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Old 1st May 2020, 02:15 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
...the buildings collapsing virtually in their own footprint.
What does that phrase mean?
What would have been different if any of the towers had NOT "collapsed virtually in its own footprint", in your view? Can you spell out any objectively verifiable criteria by which to decide whether or not a collapsing highrise collapses "virtually in its own footprint"?
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