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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , wtc , wtc7

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Old 23rd March 2007, 12:57 PM   #41
Miragememories
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
How are you determining that they are intact? Or are you merely referring to the window frames?
You can see the light reflecting off the intact panes of glass.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:01 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Not only is it odd that the gash has such nice geometric lines, the adjoining windows appear to be remarkably undisturbed.

MM
Undisturbed?!?

Let's look at the replay, folks.

Before:



After:



The facade is all busted up! It's impossible to tell what the exact nature of the damage is from the quality of these images, but it's obvious that the whole South face has taken a brutal beating.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Undisturbed?!?

Let's look at the replay, folks.

Before:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g7...tew/b7_new.jpg

After:

http://zinzang.com/du/wtc7damagecomposite.jpg

The facade is all busted up! It's impossible to tell what the exact nature of the damage is from the quality of these images, but it's obvious that the whole South face has taken a brutal beating.
Let's try and keep some perspective on this discussion before it falls apart into the usual BS.

Obviously there's lots of other unreferred to damage.

I'm specifically addressing the clean lines of the gash and how odd it is that so many adjacent windows seem unperturbed by what should have been quite a violent shock to them.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
You can see the light reflecting off the intact panes of glass.

MM
No you can't. You can see light and dark patches. You don't know what they represent.

What is your working hypothesis of this gash, MM?
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:07 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Let's try and keep some perspective on this discussion before it falls apart into the usual BS.

Obviously there's lots of other unreferred to damage.

I'm specifically addressing the clean lines of the gash and how odd it is that so many adjacent windows seem unperturbed by what should have been quite a violent shock to them.

MM
Are you actaully denying this gash exists?
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Let's try and keep some perspective on this discussion before it falls apart into the usual BS.

Obviously there's lots of other unreferred to damage.

I'm specifically addressing the clean lines of the gash and how odd it is that so many adjacent windows seem unperturbed by what should have been quite a violent shock to them.

MM
This seems like a reasonable discussable/testable claim. What kind of windows are normally found in high-res/office buildings like WTC7? We should then be able to determine what kind of stresses they can withstand.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
No you can't. You can see light and dark patches. You don't know what they represent.

What is your working hypothesis of this gash, MM?
My working hypothesis?

Well to be quite honest, other than my suggestion of it being a shadow, I don't have one.

I'm not saying that I refuse to believe it's a gash. I would like to understand it better before I give into that conclusion.

I see adjacent windows beside the so-called gash that show white because they are reflecting, and indicating intact panes of glass. A gutted window would appear black or dark in my opinion.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
This seems like a reasonable discussable/testable claim. What kind of windows are normally found in high-res/office buildings like WTC7? We should then be able to determine what kind of stresses they can withstand.
It's nice having a reasonable civilized discussion for a change. I can only hope it lasts.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:16 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
My working hypothesis?

Well to be quite honest, other than my suggestion of it being a shadow, I don't have one.

I'm not saying that I refuse to believe it's a gash. I would like to understand it better before I give into that conclusion.

I see adjacent windows beside the so-called gash that show white because they are reflecting, and indicating intact panes of glass. A gutted window would appear black or dark in my opinion.

MM
Can you think of any other possibilities besides intact glass reflecting light for those light patches?

That's a serious question.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:18 PM   #50
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I can buy the adjacent column theory as to why everything inbetween them is destroyed, however, I would really love to get other video like this, or other pics to come to a better understanding of it.

TAM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:21 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Can you think of any other possibilities besides intact glass reflecting light for those light patches?

That's a serious question.
While you're mulling it over:

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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:23 PM   #52
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no reflection at all
the smoke would be hindering much of the light being filtered
and the sun is shining from the wrong direction to cast any "light" on that side of the building.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 01:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
My working hypothesis?

<snip>
I'm not saying that I refuse to believe it's a gash. I would like to understand it better before I give into that conclusion.
<snip>
MM
Given the FDNY testimony describing exactly what we now see photographically, it seems reasonable to conclude that the "gash" is the primary and commonly accepted theory.

That is, you don't look for a reason to "give in" to it. You need to overturn it with a better theory.

Do you subscribe to the 'scientific method' MM ???

Last edited by GlennB; 23rd March 2007 at 01:42 PM. Reason: better wording
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:22 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Can you think of any other possibilities besides intact glass reflecting light for those light patches?

That's a serious question.
Well I imagine there might be other answers but I gave you what I honestly thought was the best explanation.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:27 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Well I imagine there might be other answers but I gave you what I honestly thought was the best explanation.

MM
Sorry to be pushy, but could you answer my question?
It's only a few inches above.

Regards
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:30 PM   #56
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Has anyone taken a look at where the kink showed up in the building relative to this gash when it collapsed? It might be worth looking at.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:33 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Given the FDNY testimony describing exactly what we now see photographically, it seems reasonable to conclude that the "gash" is the primary and commonly accepted theory.

That is, you don't look for a reason to "give in" to it. You need to overturn it with a better theory.

Do you subscribe to the 'scientific method' MM ???
Glenn in spite of what I perceive you think about me, I do have an engineering background and highly respect science and what it is capable of explaining. What I don't necessarily accept is that everyone qualified to explain science will do so with honest intentions.

To my point of view, too many individuals in JREF naively assume they can trust expert opinion simply because it comes from experts. I've worked in the broadcast business for 35 years editing professionals to look good and I've learned that people who know better will often say things that are wrong because it's in their best interest to do so.

In a nutshell, some experts have integrity and some will prostitute themselves at the drop of a hat.

Regarding the gash, it might be exactly that. Forgive me for being careful in my appraisal.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Given the FDNY testimony describing exactly what we now see photographically, it seems reasonable to conclude that the "gash" is the primary and commonly accepted theory.
Have any of our folks with connections to FDNY asked any of them whether these pics are showing the gash? Seems to me that would be easier than arguing about whether it's shadows or reflections or whatever.

Yes, this is consistent with FDNY testimony, but I'd like to hear someone say "yes, that's it exactly; that's what we were looking at that day!"
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Looks like you can see a stream of debris hitting right where the gash is and possibly some bounce off.

Is this pic from a video?

If so, we might be able to see the leading edge of this stream just before it hits.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:37 PM   #60
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Yes, it's a gash. As Kent 1 pointed out, this appears, although less clearly, in photos and videos that we've seen for a long time. This was discussed in a couple of threads yesterday. At 911blogger yesterday they were going through Olympic-quality mental gymnastics to try to deny that it's damage: shadow, perfectly straight soot mark, black tarp, "Waco"-like hole deliberately placed in the building to facilitate fire circulation, failed demolition attempt (that was repaired by 5:20 and successfully pulled off). As is usual with screencaps from video, it's usually better to watch the video itself.

It's damage, CTs. Get over it. Move on.
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Last edited by Gravy; 23rd March 2007 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 02:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Glenn in spite of what I perceive you think about me, I do have an engineering background and highly respect science and what it is capable of explaining. What I don't necessarily accept is that everyone qualified to explain science will do so with honest intentions.

To my point of view, too many individuals in JREF naively assume they can trust expert opinion simply because it comes from experts. I've worked in the broadcast business for 35 years editing professionals to look good and I've learned that people who know better will often say things that are wrong because it's in their best interest to do so.

In a nutshell, some experts have integrity and some will prostitute themselves at the drop of a hat.

Regarding the gash, it might be exactly that. Forgive me for being careful in my appraisal.

MM
That sounds reasonable, MM, but both here and at LC you've proposed the alternative "shadow" theory. This suggests - very strongly - that you'd prefer to believe the 'shadow' theory vs. the 'gash' theory.

Otherwise, you'd be qualifying your 'shadow' theory as just being an inferior alternative that merely deserves consideration.

In short, you're equivocating.

What do you believe?
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That sounds reasonable, MM, but both here and at LC you've proposed the alternative "shadow" theory. This suggests - very strongly - that you'd prefer to believe the 'shadow' theory vs. the 'gash' theory.

Otherwise, you'd be qualifying your 'shadow' theory as just being an inferior alternative that merely deserves consideration.

In short, you're equivocating.

What do you believe?
Don't get mean spirited Glenn.

I'm saying what I believe. No doubt you would prefer me to unequivocally say "yes it's a gash" but it's a poor quality image and a clean gash is not a reasonable expectation, so I remain unsure of what I'm seeing. I'm not locked into the shadow possibility and even if I accept the gash, I still believe the collapse was a controlled demolition.

Sorry. No doubt I used up a lot of your patience in saying that but I have to be honest to my beliefs.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:02 PM   #63
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I was hoping for a picture of a huge gash, encompasing a huge section of the south side. instead we see a narrow long gash. could this gash really have brought down the building?
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Yes, it's a gash. As Kent 1 pointed out, this appears, although less clearly, in photos and videos that we've seen for a long time. This was discussed in a couple of threads yesterday. At 911blogger yesterday they were going through Olympic-quality mental gymnastics to try to deny that it's damage: shadow, perfectly straight soot mark, black tarp, "Waco"-like hole deliberately placed in the building to facilitate fire circulation, failed demolition attempt (that was repaired by 5:20 and successfully pulled off). As is usual with screencaps from video, it's usually better to watch the video itself.

It's damage, CTs. Get over it. Move on.
Well the great one has spoken. Dare anyone argue further?

Tour guides are the ultimate authority, at least this one speaks like he is.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:06 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I was hoping for a picture of a huge gash, encompasing a huge section of the south side. instead we see a narrow long gash. could this gash really have brought down the building?
According to NIST, fire was the primary cause of the building's collapse. Structural damage certainly doesn't help, and may have also broken pressurized fuel lines.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Well the great one has spoken. Dare anyone argue further?

Tour guides are the ultimate authority, at least this one speaks like he is.

MM
When you come up with an explanation that makes sense and accounts for all the information, I'll be glad to read it.

When you find something demonstrably wrong in my statements about 9/11, let me know and I'll gladly correct it. You have not done so. In the meantime, please don't whine.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
According to NIST, fire was the primary cause of the building's collapse. Structural damage certainly doesn't help, and may have also broken pressurized fuel lines.
According to NIST they haven't really made up their minds yet.

According to Gravy it's all so obvious, case closed, move on.

It must be nice to see things so clearly and harbour so few doubts.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Well the great one has spoken. Dare anyone argue further?

Tour guides are the ultimate authority, at least this one speaks like he is.

MM
And you dare to suggest, minutes earlier, that others are "mean spirited" ?

Shame on you.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:15 PM   #69
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And what causes that kind of structural damage to the building, must once again remove at least some of the fireproofing. Hours of unprotected steel exposed to fire. We know the result.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And you dare to suggest, minutes earlier, that others are "mean spirited" ?

Shame on you.
Something about his response sounded like a "shut up..case closed" arrogance to me.

I bristle at that sort of thing. Forgive me for being human.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
I bristle at that sort of thing. Forgive me for being human.
If we're to forgive you for being human, then you need to accept that we are human, too. If you wish to participate, don't suggest "rules" you yourself can't play by.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:48 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Something about his response sounded like a "shut up..case closed" arrogance to me.

I bristle at that sort of thing. Forgive me for being human.

MM
I've been banned 6 (7,8?) times now at LC - and today at the UK forum - for *much* less than your little outburst. For just providing "inconvenient" evidence.

(well, I did call Killtown an "arse" once, but it's much less than the "m#therf#cker" abuse I've received from Roxdog and all)

I hope you can appreciate the company you are keeping over here.

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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:52 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
According to NIST they haven't really made up their minds yet.
According to Gravy it's all so obvious, case closed, move on.
It must be nice to see things so clearly and harbour so few doubts.
MM
Please review what I said about whining.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 03:57 PM   #74
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It's so straight-edged, it looks like a gap between buildings.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 04:06 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I've been banned 6 (7,8?) times now at LC - and today at the UK forum - for *much* less than your little outburst. For just providing "inconvenient" evidence.

(well, I did call Killtown an "arse" once, but it's much less than the "m#therf#cker" abuse I've received from Roxdog and all)

I hope you can appreciate the company you are keeping over here.
I am not my brother's keeper.

I am well aware that the LC forum has an abundance of ********.

I prefer to post there mostly because I receive less abuse and because there are more guests in attendance.

MM
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Old 23rd March 2007, 04:09 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by greyleonard View Post
...at least one CTist who thinks Gaia has Global Warming under control...
It's because Uncle Alex told them so.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 04:14 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
TAM, the sides of the gash are two support columns. Since almost all of the force of the debris impact was vertical, whatever lateral force it did have simply was not enough to bust through either column, so it followed a path between the columns, like rails. That's one plausible explanation.
Also, the debris could have acted like a knife cutting flesh. It was likely not very sharp, but given enough velocity, it could mimic a sharp object.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 04:19 PM   #78
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The gash appears ragged at the top of the composite picture and then it gets cleaner below. Gravy suggested something yesterday about a progessive collpase. And that sounds like a reasonable explanation to me.

Could the debris have simply hit high and then initiated a partial collapse below - the area below perhaps breaking off cleanly due to the way the building was framed?
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Old 23rd March 2007, 04:22 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
I am not my brother's keeper.

I am well aware that the LC forum has an abundance of ********.

I prefer to post there mostly because I receive less abuse and because there are more guests in attendance.

MM
Your post there are fact filled. See at LCF opinions and lies are considered facts. It is a fact. You can see it everyday, as if they never left the 4th or 5th grade. Frozen with a mind unable to think on its own. LCF is built on the fraud of LC. You can not have the truth running around uncontrolled it could cut sales if you knew Dylan was into selling lies.

After careful study of all your posts; I have found you have no facts and you fit in very well at a place built on lies and false information.

If you are surprised at the difference between LCF using lies, and JREF using facts. Now you know.

Can guests post? You are perfect for LCF, no facts and you believe lies made up out of thin air.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 04:25 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Mince View Post
Also, the debris could have acted like a knife cutting flesh. It was likely not very sharp, but given enough velocity, it could mimic a sharp object.
This is what NIST's interim report on WTC 7 says about damage to the south face spandrel plates (the horizontal elements that define window openings between columns):
Quote:
After WTC 1 collapsed:

• Heavy debris (exterior panels from WTC 1) was seen on Vesey Street and the WTC 7 promenade structure at the third floor level

• Southwest corner damage extended over Floors 8 to 18

• Damage was observed on the south face that starts at the roof level and severed the spandrels between exterior columns near the southwest corner for at least 5 to 10 floors. However, the extent and details of this damage have not yet been discerned, as smoke is present.

• Damage to the south face was described by a number of individuals. While the accounts are mostly consistent, there are some conflicting descriptions:

− middle one-fourth to one-third width of the south face was gouged out from Floor 10 to the ground
− large debris hole near center of the south face around Floor 14
− debris damage across one-fourth width of the south face, starting several floors above the atrium (extended from the ground to 5th floor), noted that the atrium glass was still intact
− from inside the building at the 8th or 9th Floor elevator lobby, where two elevator cars were ejected from their shafts and landed in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, the visible portion of the south wall was gone with more light visible from the west side possibly indicating damage extending to the west (P. L-18)
In October, 2006, NIST revised its south face damage assessment. That revision will appear in the final report. I sent them the recent video and screen caps in case they hadn't seen it.
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