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12th July 2013, 05:11 AM | #41 |
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12th July 2013, 05:38 AM | #42 |
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Reference the part I highlighted: I am not sure this is true. Children can be quite difficult to fool, particularly if the presentation is one whose obvious intent is to fool as opposed to being the means to a story.
One hypothesis to explain this, and I think there is at least some truth in it, is that younger children have not been habituated to certain movements meaning certain things, i.e., this hand position means I transferred a coin to the other hand. A magician who mimics such a hand movement for adults will be believed because the adults "know" that such a movement automatically means the coin was transferred. A child, though, may not know it at all so there is no assumption of actual transfer. That being said, children become quite willing to overlook even the most blatant and clumsy manipulations when they are wrapped in an entertaining story. Google a couple versions of the classic children's effect "Run Rabbit Run" for a decent example. |
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12th July 2013, 05:44 AM | #43 |
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Agreed, it is rare for an exceptional reaction such as running away, and it is even more rare in straight magic. Mentalism, however, in my experience very commonly elicits a response of confirmed belief, usually in a positive sense but sometimes in a negative sense. Neither the presence of nor the bluntness of disclaimers appear to have any appreciable effect.
Paradoxically, the strongest such reaction I have received was not with a mentalist effect but with an impromptu coin vanish and materialization across the room. Looking back, I suspect the reaction was so strong because the presentation was not in an entertainment venue but in a cozy home, sitting on the floor chatting with friends. I had not expected such a strong reaction, and I admit that I did not try hard to dispel the accusation of "you're in league with the devil." I responded with a crooked smile and a softly whispered "I have been accused of that, yes." |
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13th July 2013, 07:25 PM | #44 |
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13th July 2013, 07:27 PM | #45 |
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That's interesting Marplots, thank you.
So are you saying Dynamo is encouraging wooism? (I am saying he is) Can you point me to any Magician who isn't? By that I mean to say, I am interested in the possibility that there are and having a look at how they present their tricks to the public. |
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13th July 2013, 07:34 PM | #46 |
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Hi Garrette
To clarify, the tricks which fool children also have to be more clever than what you have exampled. And: Not all Children are the same. Some are fooled more than others, but in general all can be fooled. I haven't made up my mind if that could be classed as a form of child abuse or not. I am still thinking on it. |
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13th July 2013, 08:41 PM | #47 |
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I share Squeegee Beckenheim's opinion. Harnessing yourself to a metal bracket on the side of a bus, then touring the city is not magic. Magic is a performance art. When it is only gimmick (which is what Dynamo relies on mostly), it is terrible.
For a really, really good example of the art, see if you cannot find a video of Teller performing the classic, cups and balls. Teller uses clear plastic cups. |
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13th July 2013, 08:58 PM | #48 |
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14th July 2013, 12:48 AM | #49 |
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14th July 2013, 01:37 AM | #50 |
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14th July 2013, 04:40 AM | #51 |
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I would suggest Harry Houdini who spent much of his later life debunking woo as one to add as well.
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14th July 2013, 07:41 AM | #52 |
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In that vein you should include Neville Maskelyne wo, iirc, testified in court to expose a fraud. He replicated the supposedly paranormal feat while in the witness stand.
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14th July 2013, 07:46 AM | #53 |
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You miss my point. It is not the cleverness that matters, but the context and manner in which presented. (NB: I think we agree that although I am speaking in absolutes it is for ease of communication only; I understand there are exceptions)
Originally Posted by Navigator
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14th July 2013, 01:18 PM | #54 |
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P & T had a show on British TV called Penn and Teller, Fool Us
It was a magic competition show, which challenged magicians to perform in front of Penn & Teller. If they could fool them they would win a trip to Las Vegas to perform as the opening act in Penn & Teller's show. It featured a whole bunch of magicians better than Dynamo, some of whome did fool P & T. For some reason ITV axed it even though it was bringing in an audience higher than the average for the time slot. |
14th July 2013, 03:20 PM | #55 |
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http://theawesomer.com/penn-teller-c...-trick/131648/
I found a video and this is showing how a trick is done. That is showing the skill of quick hands and how to distract through voice and movement. As they said, there is tremendous variation around the world but the trick is basically the same. I think with Dynamo, the attraction is that some of his tricks have not been seen by the average person, and he does things like 'mind reading' walking through shop windows, - he works a lot with glass as well...so all this is building on his reputation even to the point where he is being spoken of as amazing and the best and the like. A friend and I were talking about a trick he had done involving fake butterflies which seemed to come alive and fly around. We had to agree that even given that everyone involved was in on it, it was impressive how they managed to get the fake butterflies to appear to come alive and fly around from positions that the same fake butterflies had been a moment before. I suppose one could trace his upbringing and career but he comes across as someone who wasn't born into money so how he pays all these actors and other participants to play along just to make a magic program promoting himself is interesting and somewhat puzzling. |
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14th July 2013, 03:29 PM | #56 |
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Yes I remember seeing parts of that series and found it very interesting. I would have to go back and take another look to see if those tricks could be considered better than some of the tricks Dynamo does, although of course it needs to be taken into consideration that some of the tricks he plays wouldn't be able to be achieved in the environment P&T use for their show...or so I assume - should assumption be classed as actual evidence that they couldn't be done in such circumstances...
Given though that some of the tricks of these magicians on P&Ts show did fool them, is only to suggest that to be fooled is simply to not know how the trick is done, and believing therefore that it is 'real magic' ... so were they really 'fooled' or simply saying that they didn't know how the trick was being done. |
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14th July 2013, 03:45 PM | #57 |
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14th July 2013, 06:17 PM | #58 |
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14th July 2013, 06:34 PM | #59 |
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Yes - but having no idea how the trick is done does not make the trick real.
My attitude is that all magic is not real, and that I don't know how most of it is done, is irrelevant. I know it is illusion. It is not real. That is all I need to know. EDIT: Also, when my friend was admiring the butterfly trick and we talked about how even if everyone was involved, how did those fake butterflies suddenly turn real, my friend started getting all wooish and saying that maybe Dynamo had some access to another dimension. I told him that no matter how much he was tempted to belief such horse pucky, never under any circumstance go down that path because it simply isn't true. I told him that was one of the major reasons why ordinary folk can fall down that slippery path of wooism and that magicians and their tricks in general were not helping the cause of getting rid of such tripe, but rather encouraging it. Just because he couldn't understand how the trick was done, did not mean that anything 'supernatural' was happening. |
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18th July 2013, 06:01 AM | #60 |
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Dynamo is possibly worst magician Ive ever seen.Having being a fan of magic(amateur hobbyist but read an awful lot) for 35 years I can state that without doubt.Slight argument to authority I guess. I dont think im breaking rules here, but Navigator a lot of Dyanmo's tricks dont work off TV and with random spectators.
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18th July 2013, 06:02 AM | #61 |
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19th July 2013, 09:26 AM | #62 |
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No. In fact, most magicians do not promote "woo".
A certain magician who goes by The Amazing--I forget his name--has devoted his life to debunking paranormal claims, and he went on to form some kind of education foundation devoted to critical thinking. Houdini spent a lot of time debunking psychic mediums. There's also Banacheck and D.J. Grothe, both connected with JREF. But there's a lot of space between actively debunking paranormal claims and promoting them (as with Uri Geller). Most professional magicians explicitly claim to be performing illusions and not to have paranormal powers. So no, Penn and Teller do not stand alone in this regard. |
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19th July 2013, 03:27 PM | #63 |
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Derren Brown also works against the woo machine. There is criticism concerning his alleged methods and red herrings of choice, but he's clear on psychics, astrology and the afterlife.
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19th July 2013, 03:34 PM | #64 |
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I have nothing against the use of stooges, as in planted assistants, when they are part of a larger ploy, but I believe an audience should consist of actual spectators who see the trick as presented. There should be no special cues and no phony reactions.
I know that the presence of a camera will skew many people's reactions, but I can't stand manufactured responses. |
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20th July 2013, 03:23 PM | #65 |
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AdMan said this recently:
This forum is for talking about conjuring, which is creating the illusion of supernatural effects with natural methods. This is promoting wooism. AdMan may be incorrect in regard to what conjuring is about. Debunking paranormal claims is a good thing, because in reality there is no such thing as paranormal/supernatural and magicians would know this to be true, because they know that every one of their conjuring illusions is trickery. It takes one to know one, and anyone who offers large sums of money to anyone who can prove that paranormal/supernatural effects are real, knows that the money is safe, OR they think that maybe there is such a thing and they would love to see it, which of course would signify that they are not convinced either way and remain unbiased in that regard. The 'prize money' is smoke and mirrors - the money is safe on that account...there is no threat that the money will ever be claimed. What it acts as is a tool to entice and entrap and expose, so it does serve a purpose in that regard which is essentially a good thing, but ultimately it is an uphill battle. The high ground belongs to the woo. Magicians in developing illusions which serve to create supernatural effects are flaming the embers of supernatural beliefs and so are contributing to and in some way even relying upon the public propensity to believe in the supernatural in order to survive in their careers as magicians. |
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20th July 2013, 03:32 PM | #66 |
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20th July 2013, 05:33 PM | #67 |
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20th July 2013, 05:40 PM | #68 |
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20th July 2013, 05:41 PM | #69 |
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20th July 2013, 05:42 PM | #70 |
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20th July 2013, 06:01 PM | #71 |
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It is true that for some performers, the distinction is less clear than for others.
E.g., you have people like Uri Geller, who earlier openly claimed real psychic powers and now prefers to call himself a "mystifier", without yet admitting he uses trickery. While he's an (admittedly) incompetent magician and lectures at magicians' conventions, I'm sure many people still believe he's got actual powers. At a panel discussion last week at TAM there was quite a heated exchange between Jamy Ian Swiss and Mark Edward. Although Edward does not claim any actual psychic powers, Swiss strongly berated him on stage for not using a disclaimer during his shows making it clear he's using trickery, and for profiting in the past through his claims that he was genuine. As I understand it, Edward still lets his audience make up its own mind as to whether he's real or not. I agree with Jamy that that kind of act can in fact promote woo. Where I clearly think Navigator is wrong is when he or she generalizes like this: |
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20th July 2013, 08:10 PM | #72 |
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A: Conjuring, is creating the illusion of supernatural effects...
B: This (conjuring) is promoting wooism If the idea is to create an illusion that suggests supernatural goings on, then this promotes the belief in supernatural goings on. However, as AdMan has said, I am generalizing, because some conjurers apparently make sure to tell the audience that their tricks have nothing to do with the so-called supernatural because there is no such thing as supernatural. This would mean that they are not doing tricks with in mind to have the audience think in any way that the tricks are possible only because of some supernatural assistance. In that case, those conjurers are not creating tricks in order to create the illusion of supernatural effects? The conjurers who make the disclaimer cannot help the fact that some people believe in supernatural things and might attribute the illusions to be possible only because there is some aspect of the supernatural helping the conjurer make the tricks possible. Some may even think that the conjurer is making such disclaimers in order to distract people from believing that they really are not getting any assistance from supernatural sources when they most definitely are, so a disclaimer can work as a double deception as far as some woo are concerned. Since this thread is about one particular conjurer - Dynamo -in watching him I see he does not tell people that his tricks are the result of quick hands, human assistance, explainable process etc...he goes out of his way to act as if he really is doing something supernatural, like when he makes a show of apparently reading peoples minds, he gives the impression he is actually reading peoples minds. There are even comments you can hear from people amazed and wondering how the trick was done - often the comments are woo-based. He allows this to happen rather than telling people there is nothing supernatural about his tricks. There is nothing supernatural about any conjurers tricks. However, allowing people to think that there is, has to be supporting wooist thinking. It might be argued that you cannot tell people how to think, and if they choose to believe a conjurers illusions are really only possibly through some form of supernatural intervention, then that is not your fault, but it is a more valid argument to say that if you do something which can influence how a person might think, then you are encouraging that kind of thinking, so are directly responsible for helping to promote that kind of thinking. |
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20th July 2013, 08:28 PM | #73 |
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That is just a simple restatement of the conclusion. You are providing no depth to your reasoning whatsoever.
Conjuring is the art and craft of creating an illusion that something impossible has taken place. Those of use without any leanings towards the supernatural may ponder, "How'd he do that?", to a real good performance, or for some of us, "My! she did that extremely well!" What's the typical woo-ster likely to say? "Gee, how'd that conjurer do that?" It is only the shyster -- Uri Geller being the poster boy -- that might use simple tricks to promote an actual belief in the supernatural. I can do the same with simple physics demonstrations. Does that mean physics promotes wooism? People like Uri Geller are the problem, not conjuring. ETA: and Dynamo is still a crappy magician. |
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20th July 2013, 11:44 PM | #74 |
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Ah okay jsfisher - I wasn't trying to be personal.
For what it is worth, I think every thing is magical and I understand there is great thought and work in learning craft and I need to respect the effort involved. My bad. I am utterly amazed at human accomplishment in creating a machine out of rock - Great Apes! That is just Real magic as far as i am concerned. From watching Dynamo I think he is a nice Human Being and I appreciate his efforts and concerns. If you think I might be under his spell, no I am not. I like the Bigger Magic of Reality and am kind of under its spell. Also I now realize I have some bias against 'magicians' probably more than I did with Christianity, which I also had a bias against for a while. It stems from childhood, and disappointment. children don't know any better and will believe anything...at least once... I am dealing with that in the Now, and will look into those Magi names given as examples of how magic is done, with thanks...I bow out of this thread. /*** |
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21st July 2013, 05:19 AM | #75 |
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21st July 2013, 09:00 PM | #76 |
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jsfisher, If you have no trouble distinguishing the two (conjuring and the supernatural), aren't you an example that argues against the case you with to make? How about granting the rest of humanity the wit you grant yourself?
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21st July 2013, 09:13 PM | #77 |
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That is not my point.
Navigator alleged that a forum for conjuring promotes woo. Navigators conclusion is not based on what conjuring is or isn't, but how it is or could be used by less than noble people. It is not conjuring itself that promotes woo, nor does a forum for discussing conjuring. As I said in passing in one of my posts, physics can also be used to promote woo. That doesn't mean physics promotes woo, nor does a forum for discussing physics. People promote woo, and they can use whatever means they find effective. Navigator's conclusion is faulty. He blames the method, not the perpetrator. If I was (or still am) unclear, I apologize. |
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21st July 2013, 09:40 PM | #78 |
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I apologize too. I probably should have made the point with navigator instead.
In my view, the genesis is with the person who has woo tendencies. If those are exploited, by whatever means, the exploiter has an ethical taint. If the process stops with the wooster, the conjurer can't be blamed any more than a sunset can be blamed for inspiring religious awe. The difficult thing, and the thing that keeps woo around, is when the exploiter and the exploited share some wooish notion. In that case, it's recursive and there's no one in the mix who is being unethical (or doesn't have to be). The best that can be done is to stand outside the tent and try to point out the Emperor has no clothes. |
22nd July 2013, 12:30 AM | #79 |
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I know I said I bow out but since I am being spoken about, I just want to clarify I never meant to allege that that a forum for conjuring promotes woo.
I don;t think I ever said anything like that. I was talking specifically about conjuring tricks and Magicians who use wooish methods in their presentations are promoting wooism, and when I was corrected about generalizing I accepted this and changed my expression. I checked out the 3 or 4 names given and feel there needs to be far more Magicians on that list in order to steer me further from any more generalizations. Is there a guild of decent magicians? A growing movement? Thanks |
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22nd July 2013, 12:35 AM | #80 |
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