IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 9/11 truth movement , Alain Soral , anti-semitism , Dieudonne M'bala M'bala , Rudy Dent

Reply
Old 17th January 2016, 10:29 PM   #81
HotRodDeluxe
Muse
 
HotRodDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 692
Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Do you or do you not consider whomever you're talking about to be "the vilest individuals one could interact with online"?
Note for comprehension: "THEY" (the subject) being the 'many...on a site I frequent'.

Did I not state thus? Yes, 'they' are the vilest individuals I have had the displeasure of interacting with online. Their comments are unbelievably hateful.

Quote:
Precision of language would be helpful, thanks.
So would good comprehension.

Last edited by HotRodDeluxe; 17th January 2016 at 10:34 PM.
HotRodDeluxe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2016, 10:41 PM   #82
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Actual Jew checking in. In my experience, anti-semites don't need a reason for their hatred. Whatever reason they claim to have is just the latest rationalization of their beliefs.
Another actual Jew checking in. I agree 100% with this comment, but the point is that Jew haters seem to be at the root of truthdoom and many similar CT's. I doubt trutherism would have acquired a fraction of its peak momentum without its despicably racist foundation.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2016, 10:53 PM   #83
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by HotRodDeluxe View Post
Note for comprehension: "THEY" (the subject) being the 'many...on a site I frequent'.

Did I not state thus? Yes, 'they' are the vilest individuals I have had the displeasure of interacting with online. Their comments are unbelievably hateful.



So would good comprehension.
Thanks. A more appropriate way of saying it.
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2016, 10:56 PM   #84
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Another actual Jew checking in. I agree 100% with this comment, but the point is that Jew haters seem to be at the root of truthdoom and many similar CT's. I doubt trutherism would have acquired a fraction of its peak momentum without its despicably racist foundation.
Both are quite the stretch to take seriously.
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2016, 11:13 PM   #85
HotRodDeluxe
Muse
 
HotRodDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 692
Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Thanks. A more appropriate way of saying it.
It would have been obvious if you observed the subject of the post, but you didn't. You chose to ignore in a pathetic attempt to create a false generalisation that didn't exist in the post.
HotRodDeluxe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2016, 11:19 PM   #86
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by HotRodDeluxe View Post
Many Stormfront supporters on one site I frequent are truthers. The 'dancing Israelis' canard comes up with alarming regularity, and 'da Jooz' are behind 9/11, and just about every other event that happens in the world today.

Personally, in my experience 9/11 truth and anti-Semitism are concomitant. I am labelled a 'Zioshill'; a 'Sayanim'; a 'Jewbot' and every other anti-Semitic term you can think of just because I understand the irrational nature of truther claims.

They are the vilest individuals one could interact with online.
Now, there's some real truth.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2016, 11:32 PM   #87
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Both are quite the stretch to take seriously.
For someone who needs not to, I suppose.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 12:39 AM   #88
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by HotRodDeluxe View Post
It would have been obvious if you observed the subject of the post, but you didn't. You chose to ignore in a pathetic attempt to create a false generalisation that didn't exist in the post.
Instead of lying your ass off now, you could have simply admitted your hyperbole, which is exactly what this statement is: "They are the vilest individuals one could interact with online."
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 12:41 AM   #89
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
For someone who needs not to, I suppose.
Then make your argument.
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 02:54 AM   #90
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Another actual Jew checking in. I agree 100% with this comment, but the point is that Jew haters seem to be at the root of truthdoom and many similar CT's. I doubt trutherism would have acquired a fraction of its peak momentum without its despicably racist foundation.
I understand the feeling and intuition, but so far find it very difficult to gauge, weigh, quantify the influence of anti-semitism on trutherism.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 06:27 AM   #91
JSanderO
Illuminator
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 3,232
It seems as if people who reject all sorts of mainstream narratives find common cause with each other. I suspect this accounts for the fact that many "main stream narrative rejecters" pop up in various groups. It the tendency to dismiss the mainstream as a pack of lies... on issue A and then embrace that notion... that someone who lies about A is probably lying about B, C, D, E and so on... They find common elements in the "official" narrative and this reinforces the notion of a systematic approach to manage perception and conceal agendas.
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 07:26 AM   #92
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
It seems as if people who reject all sorts of mainstream narratives find common cause with each other. I suspect this accounts for the fact that many "main stream narrative rejecters" pop up in various groups. It the tendency to dismiss the mainstream as a pack of lies... on issue A and then embrace that notion... that someone who lies about A is probably lying about B, C, D, E and so on... They find common elements in the "official" narrative and this reinforces the notion of a systematic approach to manage perception and conceal agendas.
Ever read Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media or anything else from Noam Chomsky that has to do with public relations, the media or national security?

Here's two recent examples of changing stories to better manage perception:
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/05/...justification/
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/15/...cious-version/
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 11:56 AM   #93
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I understand the feeling and intuition, but so far find it very difficult to gauge, weigh, quantify the influence of anti-semitism on trutherism.
I freely agree my conclusions are based on a certain degree of subjective experience and observation, by their very nature. That doesn't mean, of course, that they aren't balls-on accurate, which I believe they are.

I also believe racists seem to be at the root of the Obama "Birther" CT, and I doubt it would have have reached a fraction of its peak momentum without its despicably racist foundation. Honestly, do you think most reasonable skeptics would find that statement a stretch to even take seriously, let alone accept? I don't.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage

Last edited by trustbutverify; 18th January 2016 at 12:19 PM.
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 12:15 PM   #94
Bubba
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,556
Quote:
Posted by Bubba View Post

Yes seriously.
They claimed Mossad orchestrated 911 so that USA would attack Mossad's enemies.
I'm not saying it made sense.

According to its proponents in 911 truther world, it was a garden variety false flag attack scenario.
Lack of evidence didnt matter to them.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Thanks for explaining.
So why would they say such things? -> Anti-semitism.


Possibly, but how does one know for certain? Are they actually anti-semitic?

Maybe they thought they saw criminal ie deception activity.

Wouldnt proof of antisemitism be needed? Are you saying that accusing Mossad is automatically anti-semitic?

Without proof, why would accusing Mossad be deemed antisemitic?

Thats why I ask if accusing mafia of crime is anti-italian.

Suspecting an italian of being in mafia might be similar....possible but not automatic.

Suspecting a truther of being anti-semitic is similar...possible but not automatic.
Bubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 12:18 PM   #95
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Jango View Post
... or anything else from Noam Chomsky ...
Chomsky knows 911 truth is dumbed down BS.
Quote:
Chomsky shut down Tuskin's claims. If scientists had strong evidence to support 9/11 conspiracy theories, he said, they would have presented their discoveries to other architects and engineers, would have published their arguments in scientific journals and attempted to persuade other professionals that they'd found something worth investigating.

"There happen to be a lot of people around who spent an hour on the Internet and think they know a lot of physics," he added, "but it doesn't work like that ... There's a reason there are graduate schools in these departments."
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 03:31 PM   #96
HotRodDeluxe
Muse
 
HotRodDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 692
Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Instead of lying your ass off now, you could have simply admitted your hyperbole, which is exactly what this statement is: "They are the vilest individuals one could interact with online."
Come on, you're fooling no-one. If you don't strawman, you go for the cheap 'gotcha' moment. Most interactions with you are the same.

If you observed the subject of my post you would have had no problem, but you chose to ignore it on some quest for a cheap 'gotcha' moment.

You chose to interpret my post incorrectly and ignore the key clauses and words in order to manipulate the converstaion, and for that immature tactic you've earned my contempt.

HotRodDeluxe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 04:21 PM   #97
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by Jango View Post
Ever read Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media or anything else from Noam Chomsky that has to do with public relations, the media or national security?

Here's two recent examples of changing stories to better manage perception:
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/05/...justification/
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/15/...cious-version/
Yes I have read Manufacturing Consent (by Chomsky and Edward Herman). Good, convincing book.
It doesn't conclude that the media lie about everything and are able to invent anything and conceal forever everything they want to conceal.

In fact, Chomsky himself finds the idea that 9/11 was a huge conspiracy by the Bush government (or substantial elements thereof) idiotic, precisely because the information that all the necessary co-conspirators would have could not be managed in the way truthers imagine - and that would include truthers who have read Chomsky.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 05:12 PM   #98
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
In fact, Chomsky himself finds the idea that 9/11 was a huge conspiracy by the Bush government (or substantial elements thereof) idiotic, precisely because the information that all the necessary co-conspirators would have could not be managed in the way truthers imagine - and that would include truthers who have read Chomsky.
Not to mention the type of contortions necessary for the collective mass media to continuously achieve in order to maintain this astronomically complex sham.

An actual example of Chomsky's consent-manufacturing in action would be RT and PressTV's glossy campaign to convince the willingly guillable that the 9/11 attacks were an inside job secret conspiracy.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 05:27 PM   #99
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Wouldnt proof of antisemitism be needed? Are you saying that accusing Mossad is automatically anti-semitic?
No. I'm saying the chances claims of Mossad being responsible for the 9/11 attacks not being related to an antisemitic agenda are roughly the same as claims that the Holocaust was a hoax not being related to an antisemitic agenda.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2016, 06:26 PM   #100
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by HotRodDeluxe View Post
Come on, you're fooling no-one. If you don't strawman, you go for the cheap 'gotcha' moment. Most interactions with you are the same.

If you observed the subject of my post you would have had no problem, but you chose to ignore it on some quest for a cheap 'gotcha' moment.

You chose to interpret my post incorrectly and ignore the key clauses and words in order to manipulate the converstaion, and for that immature tactic you've earned my contempt.

Projection much?
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2016, 07:46 AM   #101
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Do I seriously have to present evidence to support the claim "I once researched relevant statistics and found no robust evidence..."??

But if you must: Here is what I was refering to:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...72#post8972772
Ah, now I remember. And your closing sentence is accurate:

Originally Posted by Oystein
of course these numbers have holes larger than the twin towers.
Never mind. It is good to see you posting around here again!
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2016, 11:42 AM   #102
baldartist
Scholar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 97
Jews can't melt steel beams.
baldartist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2016, 12:34 PM   #103
Bubba
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,556
Quote:
Posted by Bubba View Post

Wouldnt proof of antisemitism be needed? Are you saying that accusing Mossad is automatically anti-semitic?

Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
No. I'm saying the chances claims of Mossad being responsible for the 9/11 attacks not being related to an antisemitic agenda are roughly the same as claims that the Holocaust was a hoax not being related to an antisemitic agenda.
Certainly plausible.

Isnt it also possible that some proponents of these 911 and holocaust theories are not anti-semitic...but instead (as I understand it) are suspicious of fraud, ie criminal scams designed to benefit a party which happens to be a group or element of people in power who happen to be Jewish?

Suspicion of sophisticated criminal fraud is not the same as swastikas painted on synagogues and similar expressions of anti-semitism.

How do you know their suspicions are anti-semitic rather than anti-criminal?
How do you make the step from suspicion of fraud to anti-semitism?

Why isnt suspicion of criminal mafia activity by italians considered anti-italianism?

I'm not asserting they (truthers) are not anti-semitic. Maybe some are. I'm just saying I can still see a difference between suspecting powerful people of fraud versus knee jerk anti-semitism.

I've seen where some rabbis and other Jews protest zionism in their govt. Does that shed a different light on this?

Whether it were true/nutty or not, for sake of the argument, I can see how accusing Mossad of fraud that is designed to frame their enemies and or protect/benefit Jews/Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic.

Could it be that a non anti-semitic person said it first (theorized Mossad involvement) and then anti-semitic people jumped on board and repeated it?

Last edited by Bubba; 19th January 2016 at 12:37 PM.
Bubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2016, 05:29 PM   #104
Nick Terry
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,173
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Certainly plausible.

Isnt it also possible that some proponents of these 911 and holocaust theories are not anti-semitic...but instead (as I understand it) are suspicious of fraud, ie criminal scams designed to benefit a party which happens to be a group or element of people in power who happen to be Jewish?

Suspicion of sophisticated criminal fraud is not the same as swastikas painted on synagogues and similar expressions of anti-semitism.

How do you know their suspicions are anti-semitic rather than anti-criminal?
How do you make the step from suspicion of fraud to anti-semitism?

Why isnt suspicion of criminal mafia activity by italians considered anti-italianism?

I'm not asserting they (truthers) are not anti-semitic. Maybe some are. I'm just saying I can still see a difference between suspecting powerful people of fraud versus knee jerk anti-semitism.

I've seen where some rabbis and other Jews protest zionism in their govt. Does that shed a different light on this?

Whether it were true/nutty or not, for sake of the argument, I can see how accusing Mossad of fraud that is designed to frame their enemies and or protect/benefit Jews/Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic.

Could it be that a non anti-semitic person said it first (theorized Mossad involvement) and then anti-semitic people jumped on board and repeated it?
No, Bubba. You are ignoring well over a century's worth of outright lying about anything connected with Jews, propagated by modern antisemites.

This lying has come to fixate on the actions of the state of Israel and of its agencies such as Mossad to an almost comic degree. In the Middle East, the paranoia has been so intense that Iran captured "Zionist pigeons" a few years back, while a kestrel was held captive for a while in Turkey on suspicion of being an 'Israeli spy', and indeed there's an entire Wiki page chronicling zoologically themed Israel-related conspiracy theories circulating around the region.

Intelligence services are low-hanging fruit for conspiracy theorists. There are literally thousands of false accusations against this or that intelligence service, ANY accusation against the CIA, FSB, MI6 or Mossad that is not properly documented by mainstream sources is suspect, until proper evidence is provided.

This is what happens when loons cry wolf.

Several previous generations of loons have removed any benefit of the doubt, to the point that when Mossad-flavoured conspiracy theories emerged after 9/11, they were not taken seriously in the mainstream, because there were too many antisemites who had every incentive to smear and malign Jews and Israel to make it at all probable that any specific allegation did not come from an antisemitic source or mindset.
__________________
Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. A Critique of the Falsehoods of Mattogno, Graf and Kues.
(biggest ever skeptical debunking of conspiracy theorists; PDF available)

Everytime one asks you holocaust deniers for positive evidence you just put your finger in the ears, dance around and sing lalala - Kevin Silbstedt
Nick Terry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2016, 10:37 PM   #105
Notconvinced
Critical Thinker
 
Notconvinced's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 344
Ahhh, the thread where [SNIP] accused me of being antisemite for having a Jewish sister. Roflcopter


Sent from our shared looking glass platform

Edited by kmortis:  Edited to remove Rulw 12 & Rule 0 violation

Last edited by kmortis; 20th January 2016 at 09:39 AM.
Notconvinced is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2016, 11:05 PM   #106
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Blaming Jews for manipulating world events like 911 is not new; 911 truth claims blaming Jews is anti-Semitism. 911 truth followers share the most idiotic claims with their fellow 911 truth failed followers who are also anti-Semitic.

Faith-based 911 truth followers know they are right, and smarter than everyone who knows 911 truth is BS, and they learned all they know from the Internet... A movement based on BS googled on the Internet, the 911 truth movement of dumbed down lies for those who have no clue where their overwhelming evidence is, or what it is.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2016, 04:37 PM   #107
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,571
What happens is that pre-existing conspiracy theories are often simply expanded to include new events. Thus, for those who argue that the Jews control the world, it is not much of a stretch to claim that the Jews pulled the 9-11 strings, just as Alex Jones blamed it on the Bilderberg Group, and liberal conspiracy theorists implicated the Bush Administration.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2016, 07:00 PM   #108
Notconvinced
Critical Thinker
 
Notconvinced's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
You don't understand my argument, so you're in no position to determine anything about it.

You don't have an argument. Acknowledging that Israelis helped to conceal the 911 crimes, Bazant and Chertoff for example, does not make one an antisemite. Acknowledging that agents of Mossad were filming the first plane strike and celebrating does not make one an antisemite. Understanding that Israel tried to kill every single sailor aboard the USS Liberty does not make one an antisemite. These are simply factual relationships that you are uncomfortable accepting. You're just grasping at a ridiculous framework in which you might try to marginalize 'truthers' by associating them with racism, when in fact what you're terrified of is American Nationalism.


Sent from our shared looking glass platform
Notconvinced is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2016, 07:54 PM   #109
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
You don't have an argument. Acknowledging that Israelis helped to conceal the 911 crimes, Bazant and Chertoff for example, does not make one an antisemite. Acknowledging that agents of Mossad were filming the first plane strike and celebrating does not make one an antisemite. Understanding that Israel tried to kill every single sailor aboard the USS Liberty does not make one an antisemite. These are simply factual relationships that you are uncomfortable accepting. You're just grasping at a ridiculous framework in which you might try to marginalize 'truthers' by associating them with racism, when in fact what you're terrified of is American Nationalism.


Sent from our shared looking glass platform
Gallop gallop gallop gallop........
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2016, 07:56 PM   #110
trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,335
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Certainly plausible.

Isnt it also possible that some proponents of these 911 and holocaust theories are not anti-semitic...but instead (as I understand it) are suspicious of fraud, ie criminal scams designed to benefit a party which happens to be a group or element of people in power who happen to be Jewish?
I never claimed it wasn't possible. I simply said that the probability someone without an antisemitic agenda would claim Mossad was behind the 9/11 attacks is roughly equivalent to the probability someone without an antisemitic agenda would claim the Holocaust was a Jewish hoax. That's all. In fact, let me express it in an updated form:

P(claim Mossad behind 9/11 with no antisemitic agenda) approx= P(claim Holocaust was a Jewish hoax with no antisemitic agenda) approx= P(claim Pres. Obama faked his Birth Certificate for presidential eligibility with no racist agenda).

I'd say that's just about right.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2016, 11:42 PM   #111
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Gallop gallop gallop gallop........


Can't address or counter what he is saying, would you have to type too much and find links? Awe.
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 12:38 AM   #112
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
Originally Posted by Jango View Post


Can't address or counter what he is saying, would you have to type too much and find links? Awe.
Can address, can counter, but why bother? It's already on record in this forum and nothing I say is going to change what Notconvinced purports to believe.

Was I incorrect in alluding to it being a Gish Gallop?

BTW - thank you for the italicised awe. You have no idea how much it means to me, to receive that from an anonymous poster on a web forum.
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 01:27 AM   #113
Jango
Graduate Poster
 
Jango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Can address, can counter, but why bother? It's already on record in this forum and nothing I say is going to change what Notconvinced purports to believe.

Was I incorrect in alluding to it being a Gish Gallop?

BTW - thank you for the italicised awe. You have no idea how much it means to me, to receive that from an anonymous poster on a web forum.
Perhaps for those that are interested? Ever think about that? Maybe it is information and perspectives that may fill in someone's data set about the topic(s). There are worthwhile intellectual principles spoken about here at great lengths, but if what you describe his post as is true, countering the wrongness with what you say can address and counter his post is certainly preferred than saying what you did and simply moving on. You say 'he is full of ******** so why bother responding to him?' by responding to him without showing why he is full of ********. Notwithstanding, you're perfectly within your right to do so; however, I'm just saying it would be refreshing to see informative counters rather than what has turned into a comedy routine.
__________________
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair
Jango is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 01:28 AM   #114
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
Acknowledging that Israelis helped to conceal the 911 crimes, Bazant and Chertoff for example, does not make one an antisemite.
Au contraire.
Absent any evidence that Bazant and Chartoff are in fact citizens of the country Israel, and absent any evidence they did what you allege, this appears rather obviously a sneaky way of avoiding what you really want to say: "They did eevil things cuz they're Joooos!"
I asked you previously to show evidence that Bazant, who is from Czechoslovakia and emigrates to the US after short times in France and Canada, is an "Israeli"!
I asked you previously to show evidence that Chertoff, born in the USA and having never lived a day in Israel, is an Israeli!

Your fraudulent "acknowledgement" that they are "Israelis" appears as a very obvious indication that you are, in fact, anti-semitic.

Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
You're just grasping at a ridiculous framework in which you might try to marginalize 'truthers' by associating them with racism, when in fact what you're terrified of is American Nationalism.
Anti-semitism + Nationalism = Nazism
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 05:25 AM   #115
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
Acknowledging Pretending that Israelis helped to conceal the 911 crimes, Bazant and Chertoff for example, does not make one an antisemite. Acknowledging Pretending that agents of Mossad were filming the first plane strike and celebrating does not make one an antisemite. Understanding Pretending that Israel tried to kill every single sailor aboard the USS Liberty while knowing they were American does not make one an antisemite.
FTFY, because none of the things you claim as fact are actually true.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 08:50 AM   #116
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
Originally Posted by Notconvinced View Post
You don't have an argument. Acknowledging that Israelis helped to conceal the 911 crimes, Bazant and Chertoff for example, does not make one an antisemite.
On the other hand, calling a guy born in Prague and a guy born in New Jersey "Israeli" pretty clearly does out you as an antisemite.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 09:00 AM   #117
Bubba
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,556
Quote:
Posted by Bubba View Post

Certainly plausible.

Isnt it also possible that some proponents of these 911 and holocaust theories are not anti-semitic...but instead (as I understand it) are suspicious of fraud, ie criminal scams designed to benefit a party which happens to be a group or element of people in power who happen to be Jewish?


Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I never claimed it wasn't possible. I simply said that the probability someone without an antisemitic agenda would claim Mossad was behind the 9/11 attacks is roughly equivalent to the probability someone without an antisemitic agenda would claim the Holocaust was a Jewish hoax. That's all. In fact, let me express it in an updated form:

P(claim Mossad behind 9/11 with no antisemitic agenda) approx= P(claim Holocaust was a Jewish hoax with no antisemitic agenda) approx= P(claim Pres. Obama faked his Birth Certificate for presidential eligibility with no racist agenda).

I'd say that's just about right.
Questions re his origins arose long before he produced the birth cert and suspicion grew when he didnt do so sooner.

Would you accuse Chileans or Iranians or various other 3rd world LEO of anti-americanism or racism for putting CIA/America on a list of who'd benefit by orchestrating false flag stunts in overthrowing their democratically elected govts back then?

Suppose some LEO put Mossad/Israel govt on a list of "Who would benefit from 911?" ....How anti-semitic is that?
Bubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 09:56 AM   #118
Nick Terry
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,173
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Questions re his origins arose long before he produced the birth cert and suspicion grew when he didnt do so sooner.
Obama released his short form birth certificate in June 2008, before he was even elected. The policy of the state of Hawaii was to provide computer-generated certificates, which of course fuelled the fire. The original long form was released in April 2011. By then there was every incentive for the Obama White House to let various Republicans discredit themselves by endorsing what had become a mass delusion on the right wing of the political spectrum.

Quote:
Would you accuse Chileans or Iranians or various other 3rd world LEO of anti-americanism or racism for putting CIA/America on a list of who'd benefit by orchestrating false flag stunts in overthrowing their democratically elected govts back then?
Your question seems to confuse historical facts with hypothetical possibilities. It is well known that the CIA aided coups in Iran and Chile during the 1950s and 1970s respectively. The CIA was rather notorious for engaging in often amateurish direct action in this era, e.g. the Bay of Pigs.

Since the mid-1970s, however, increased congressional and senate oversight along with a shift towards electronics intelligence and away from human intelligence make it less probable that any new accusation of CIA malfeasance is actually true. This does not rule out the possibility but it makes it less likely.

Moreover, from the mid-1970s direct actions have been more frequently carried out by US special forces, e.g. the failed attempt to free the Teheran hostages in 1980, or the apprehension of Osama Bin Laden, in both cases certainly with CIA support, but not the work of "the CIA".

Seeing the hand of the CIA in everything that might possibly be construed as bad would indeed be a sign of anti-Americanism, but there's a big difference between a rational suspicion of foreign interference in a conflict, and a kneejerk accusation, such as Hugo Chavez claiming that multiple Latin American leaders were victims of a US "cancer plot". Chavez was previously nearly ousted in a coup in 2002, and despite earlier denials then changed his tune to say later on that the US was involved, even though the evidence indicates the opposite.

Iran made anti-American noises for decades after the overthrow of the Shah in 1979, and backed up the rhetoric with actions, e.g. the hostages crisis in the first years of Khomeini's rule. In recent decades Iranian leaders have tended not to provoke the US directly but have made their feelings rather plain about Israel, especially under Ahmadinejad.

Thus when bad things happen to Iranian nuclear scienists it is perfectly rational to assume that Israel (and thus Mossad) may indeed have been responsible, since there is a very overt conflict there. Israel struggled unsuccessfully against the US-brokered deal over nuclear power with Iran. There was a lot of sabre-rattling from Israel and its supporters elsewhere, and since they had previously attacked an Iraqi nuclear plant to derail a potential nuclear weapons program, everyone including the US took them seriously.

However, for years there were conspiracists claiming that the US was imminently about to attack Iraq, echoed at various times by mainstream media comments from kneejerk anti-American writers. Yet the Obama administration was actually working quietly behind the scenes to broker a deal with Iran. Today, the two countries are cooperating to a certain extent against ISIS, in an enemy-of-my-enemy scenario.

Quote:
Suppose some LEO put Mossad/Israel govt on a list of "Who would benefit from 911?" ....How anti-semitic is that?
Law enforcement, i.e. the FBI, traced the identities of the 9/11 hijackers within 72 hours, revealing that most were from Saudi Arabia with a few Egyptians, Lebanese and UAE citizens mixed in.

Since the WTC had previously been attacked by Al-Qaeda, it seems very unlikely that any law enforcement officer would have had cause to brainstorm possible culprits by resorting to 'cui bono'.

Had one done so and fingered Mossad then the chance would be indeed quite good that the LEO was an antisemite, for the simple reason that even moderately geopolitically informed investigators (i.e. anyone who reads the foreign news sections of quality newspapers) would know that Israel was and is a US ally, with no known reason then or now to orchestrate a massive terrorist strike on its chief sponsor.

For the same reason, if the LEO had fingered the United Kingdom in this unnecessary hypothetical brainstorming exercise on September 11-13, then the probability would be overwhelming that the investigator was a deranged Anglophobe.
__________________
Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. A Critique of the Falsehoods of Mattogno, Graf and Kues.
(biggest ever skeptical debunking of conspiracy theorists; PDF available)

Everytime one asks you holocaust deniers for positive evidence you just put your finger in the ears, dance around and sing lalala - Kevin Silbstedt
Nick Terry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 09:59 AM   #119
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Suppose some LEO put Mossad/Israel govt on a list of "Who would benefit from 911?" ....How anti-semitic is that?
It would depend on whether they actually benefited, which is debatable at best given that the US was already a staunch ally of Israel. Just handwaving imaginary benefits, as so many CTs seem to do, is very suspect; how, specifically, is Israel supposed to have benefited from 9/11? And don't just say "It's obvious"; if you can't come up with specific examples, then no, it isn't, and it starts to look like a justification for prejudice.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2016, 10:01 AM   #120
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Questions re his origins arose long before he produced the birth cert and suspicion grew when he didnt do so sooner.

Would you accuse Chileans or Iranians or various other 3rd world LEO of anti-americanism or racism for putting CIA/America on a list of who'd benefit by orchestrating false flag stunts in overthrowing their democratically elected govts back then?

Suppose some LEO put Mossad/Israel govt on a list of "Who would benefit from 911?" ....How anti-semitic is that?
The difference is: CIA/US involvements in the coups in Chile (1970s) and Iran (1950s) have lots of evidence going for them and are essentially acknowledged by the CIA and the USA (although neither were "false flags" - I don't think you understand properly what that term means).

There is, however, no evidence for Mossad/Israel involvement in the 9/11 attack, except for some labored, prejudiced "cui bono" assessment. I am not exactly sure Israel actually profited from the destabilization of countries in her neighborhood.

Face it: Some truthers accuse Israel and Mossad because they are despicable anti-semites. There is nothing more to it.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:48 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.