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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 14th June 2021, 03:47 PM   #1841
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Israel has a new Prime Minister...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/14/middl...cmd/index.html
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Old 18th June 2021, 07:01 AM   #1842
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Israel has a new Prime Minister...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/14/middl...cmd/index.html
Bibi refuses to leave the official residence.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...ce-by-june-27/

Seems like the perfect job for the IDF, they have a lot of experience throwing people out of their homes.
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Old 18th June 2021, 08:54 AM   #1843
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bibi refuses to leave the official residence.
Your source never makes that claim even once. The controversy seems to be about exactly how fast he needs to leave. Apparently there are no specific rules about that, and it seems generally accepted that it doesn't need to be immediately after losing an election. So the accusation against him in your source isn't that he refuses to leave, but that he's taking too long to leave. Which might be true, but it isn't what you're accusing him of.
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Old 21st July 2021, 10:26 AM   #1844
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Incoming Streisand effect

Quote:
Israel’s prime minister vowed Tuesday to “act aggressively” against the decision by Ben & Jerry’s to stop selling its ice cream in Israeli-occupied territories, as the country’s ambassador to the U.S. urged dozens of state governors to punish the company under anti-boycott laws.
https://apnews.com/article/ben-jerry...223a95a593c391

Anti-BDS laws, passed by various right wing governors, are almost certainly all unconstitutional infringements of 1A rights. Georgia's version of this law was found to be illegal by the courts.
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Old 26th July 2021, 12:46 PM   #1845
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Also, Pillsbury is about to feel the wrath of BDS. PearlMilling is going to get baked.

Anuradha Mittal is the person behind this travesty of telling Israeli Jews that they deserve to be singled-out for enmity and their country strangled/dismantled.
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Old 27th July 2021, 04:49 AM   #1846
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Giving it more consideration, I realize I agree with Israel. I also think it's terrorism when people don't give me ice cream.
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Old 27th July 2021, 08:55 AM   #1847
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Giving it more consideration, I realize I agree with Israel. I also think it's terrorism when people don't give me ice cream.
While you want to reduce this to raw humor and laugh it up, the entire Arab Boycott of Israel is a well-worn path in our relations. BDS is nothing more than an offshoot of that.

Ben & Jerry's is not the issue here. Ice cream is not the issue here. Pancake batter is not the issue here. Hummus isn't. ZIM is not.

We face people who hate us. They just do. It's a deep-seated thing. I don't feel much of it is related even to Zionism or Israel. When those who seek to harm us blatantly come out swinging against the State of Israel, with severly incorrect rhetoric, and aim to cause a collapse of our society, with means other than direct warfare or terrorism (although they'll support that, too, as part of a so-called Liberation of their Arab Lands) --- Well, I take that attack personally. As an Israeli.

Palestinians have a grievance? No ****. They do. But resolving it requires something other than continued antagonism towards us. Ben & Jerry's is indeed important, not because of the mechandising or distribution systems suspensions involved with the Israeli franchisee, but because the individual who led this effort, Anuradha Mittal (and she demanded that the boycott extend to all of Israel, not just some segments of the entire marketplace there) is an avowed enemy of Israel. If boycotts against Jews starts developing and intensifying, and is allowed to become the norm, then Jews worldwide will respond accordingly, as they should.
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Old 27th July 2021, 08:59 AM   #1848
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
While you want to reduce this to raw humor and laugh it up, the entire Arab Boycott of Israel is a well-worn path in our relations. BDS is nothing more than an offshoot of that.

Ben & Jerry's is not the issue here. Ice cream is not the issue here. Pancake batter is not the issue here. Hummus isn't. ZIM is not.

We face people who hate us. They just do. It's a deep-seated thing. I don't feel much of it is related even to Zionism or Israel. When those who seek to harm us blatantly come out swinging against the State of Israel, with severly incorrect rhetoric, and aim to cause a collapse of our society, with means other than direct warfare or terrorism (although they'll support that, too, as part of a so-called Liberation of their Arab Lands) --- Well, I take that attack personally. As an Israeli.

Palestinians have a grievance? No ****. They do. But resolving it requires something other than continued antagonism towards us. Ben & Jerry's is indeed important, not because of the mechandising or distribution systems suspensions involved with the Israeli franchisee, but because the individual who led this effort, Anuradha Mittal (and she demanded that the boycott extend to all of Israel, not just some segments of the entire marketplace there) is an avowed enemy of Israel. If boycotts against Jews starts developing and intensifying, and is allowed to become the norm, then Jews worldwide will respond accordingly, as they should.
A boycott is not terrorism no matter how you slice it. It's run of the mill nonviolent resistance. It's fine to think a boycott is not warranted, but calling it terrorism is hysterical BS.

Yes, the point of BDS is to inflict economic damage on the apartheid state of Israel in an effort to incentivize them to stop engaging in human rights violations and acts of military aggression against the Palestinians. The point is to extract a price for the continued illegal and inhumane conduct. Sanctions were effective in pressuring South Africa into ending their apartheid regime, and there's no reason to believe such sanctions could not be effective again, though it seems unlikely that the current US government is interested in taking any decisive action against Israel in this regard.
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Old 27th July 2021, 09:04 AM   #1849
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A boycott is not terrorism no matter how you slice it. It's run of the mill nonviolent resistance. It's fine to think a boycott is not warranted, but calling it terrorism is hysterical BS.
Look it is immoral to refuse to trade with someone, be that Israel, Iran or North Korea. Why look at how Israel bravely continued to trade military technology to apartheid south Africa, the act of true heroism.
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Old 27th July 2021, 11:12 AM   #1850
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A boycott is not terrorism no matter how you slice it.
He didn't say it was. That's entirely your own straw man.

But it very much is a hostile act.

Quote:
Sanctions were effective in pressuring South Africa into ending their apartheid regime, and there's no reason to believe such sanctions could not be effective again
Effective at doing what?

I'm not sure you've really thought through what the BDS advocates actually want.
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Old 27th July 2021, 11:16 AM   #1851
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He didn't say it was. That's entirely your own straw man.

But it very much is a hostile act.


Not a strawman, officials from Israel are claiming that a boycott from a luxury ice cream brand is terrorism.

Quote:
President Isaac Herzog called boycotts of Israel “a new kind of terrorism” on Wednesday, joining a chorus of Israeli officials who have ripped into Ben & Jerry’s over its decision to cease ice cream sales in West Bank settlements and East Jerusalem.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/citing...-of-terrorism/

I can see why you'd think this was a strawman, because it's on its face absurdly stupid.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat
Effective at doing what?

I'm not sure you've really thought through what the BDS advocates actually want.
Broad international sanctions were widely credited as being an important incentive for South Africa to end their apartheid system.

Considering these boycotts are often explicitly citing the illegal Israeli settlements, I think it's pretty clear what the objection is.
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Old 27th July 2021, 02:29 PM   #1852
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not a strawman, officials from Israel are claiming that a boycott from a luxury ice cream brand is terrorism.
If you want to talk about the opinions of third parties not participating in this thread, you really need to specify that. But when you argue against a position NOBODY here expressed in response to someone's post as if that's what they said, it's rather natural to think that's a straw man, because it is.

Get better at writing.

Quote:
Broad international sanctions were widely credited as being an important incentive for South Africa to end their apartheid system.

Considering these boycotts are often explicitly citing the illegal Israeli settlements, I think it's pretty clear what the objection is.
That's where you're wrong. The goal of the BDS movement is quite a bit more ambitious than that. Settlements is just the motte, there's also a bailey.
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Old 27th July 2021, 03:39 PM   #1853
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"...the occupation is terrorism itself."is how the Palestinian National Authority regards the State of Israel. For them, ALL OF ISRAEL is occupying their Arab lands, EVERY ISRAELI is a settler, and the creation of Israel is a 'catastrophe' that must be undone and Jewish hegemony give way to an Arab State (an Islamic State of Hamastan, if their goals are to be considered).

So, forgive me if I am quite unwilling to go along with any of that.
Anuradha Mittal or Omar Barghouti notwithstanding.
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Old 29th July 2021, 12:50 PM   #1854
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https://bdsmovement.net/call

A few years ago, I was having a conversation with some 'progressives' about the BDS call for action with a short list of specific demands.
They claimed that BDS only wants to recover the 1967 lands, and I insisted that position is incorrect.
Using the webpage of BDS itself, I quoted the demands:
1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

"ALL ARAB LANDS" In English - Arabic - Spanish - French - Italian - German - Hebrew - Slovak - Russian - Turkish.

In 1974, the Palestinians understood that they have to go about this incrementally.
https://iris.org.il/plophase.htm 12th Session of the Palestinian National Council, Cairo, June 9, 1974

Every single word of that 47-year-old document is fully aligned with the Palestinian position today.
"On the basis of the Palestinian National Charter...and from its belief that it is impossible for a permanent and just peace to be established in the area unless our Palestinian people recover all their national rights and, first and foremost, their rights to return and to self-determination on the whole of the soil of their homeland..."

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Old 30th July 2021, 06:25 PM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's where you're wrong. The goal of the BDS movement is quite a bit more ambitious than that. Settlements is just the motte, there's also a bailey.
According to wikipedia,
Quote:
The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement (BDS) is a Palestinian-led[6] movement promoting boycotts, divestments, and economic sanctions against Israel. Its objective is to pressure Israel to meet what the BDS movement describes as Israel's obligations under international law,[7] defined as withdrawal from the occupied territories, removal of the separation barrier in the West Bank, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and "respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties".[8] The movement is organized and coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycot..._and_Sanctions).

This may be too extreme, but Ben & Jerry's isn't saying they participate in the BDS movement.
Quote:
Q: Are you exiting Israel? Are you boycotting Israel? Is this part of the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement?
A: No. Although Ben & Jerry’s will no longer be sold in the OPT, we will stay in Israel through a different business arrangement. We will share an update on this as soon as we’re ready.
(https://www.benjerry.com/about-us/me...tine-statement)

Not bad for an ice cream maker.
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Old 30th July 2021, 07:05 PM   #1856
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The millions of refugees and their progeny simply aren't going to be returning.
It's not gonna happen.
Let's start there.
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Old 31st July 2021, 02:49 PM   #1857
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
According to wikipedia,
It’s almost quaint that you trust this.
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Old 31st July 2021, 04:48 PM   #1858
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It’s almost quaint that you trust this.
Why?

Wikipedia is written up by many people (including myself, though rarely).
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Old 31st July 2021, 06:40 PM   #1859
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Why?

Wikipedia is written up by many people (including myself, though rarely).
Because it's notoriously unreliable on anything controversial. Which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is.
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Old 31st July 2021, 08:21 PM   #1860
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because it's notoriously unreliable on anything controversial. Which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is.
I've attempted editing Wiki articles on Israel/Palestinians, only to have it reversed.

One example: They use the term "de jure Sovereign State of Palestine" to describe the territory of Gaza & West Bank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip (Introductory paragraph of an incredibly long and detailed wiki)

Is there actually such a thing as the "de jure Sovereign State of Palestine"? Nope.
Yet, Wiki editors won't let that be altered, they swarm all over any alteration ("de facto" substituted for "de jure") or deletion I make to the phrase. Try it, see for yourself, go and change this one sentence, good luck with that.

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Old 31st July 2021, 08:32 PM   #1861
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Speaking about the antagonism towards anything to do with Israel, singer Billie Elish is discovering today that just saying "Hi Israel" (to her fans there) can result in her being called racist.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/310917
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Old 31st July 2021, 09:26 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I've attempted editing Wiki articles on Israel/Palestinians, only to have it reversed.

One example: They use the term "de jure Sovereign State of Palestine" to describe the territory of Gaza & West Bank.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip (Introductory paragraph of an incredibly long and detailed wiki)

Is there actually such a thing as the "de jure Sovereign State of Palestine"? Nope.
Yet, Wiki editors won't let that be altered, they swarm all over any alteration ("de facto" substituted for "de jure") or deletion I make to the phrase. Try it, see for yourself, go and change this one sentence, good luck with that.
To understand the term "de jure Sovereign State of Palestine" in the Gaza page, click on "State of Palestine in that article, this should take you to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_...e#cite_note-21
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-p...8AR0EG20121129
Read the Reuters article:
Quote:
Palestinians win implicit U.N. recognition of sovereign state
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Old 31st July 2021, 09:30 PM   #1863
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Speaking about the antagonism towards anything to do with Israel, singer Billie Elish is discovering today that just saying "Hi Israel" (to her fans there) can result in her being called racist.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/310917
Perhaps she should have said "Hi Israel (and Palestine)".
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Old 1st August 2021, 09:13 PM   #1864
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Perhaps she should have said "Hi Israel (and Palestine)".
That's splitting hairs.

Where is the similar outrage against Danny Valencia? Or Ian Kinsler?
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Old 1st August 2021, 09:17 PM   #1865
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
To understand the term "de jure Sovereign State of Palestine" ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-p...8AR0EG20121129
The first sentence in that 2012 report says "de facto recognition" -- not de jure.
Why would you use that article's cite to support a claim of de jure?

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Old 1st August 2021, 09:55 PM   #1866
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Perhaps she should have said "Hi Israel (and Palestine)".
Why? And what good would it have done with people who equate Israel with Nazi Germany?
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Old 1st August 2021, 10:01 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Why?

Wikipedia is written up by many people (including myself, though rarely).
Wikipedia is repeating what BDS itself publicly claim their mission to be. Most rational people on all sides understand it to be purely cosmetic.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 06:52 AM   #1868
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The first sentence in that 2012 report says "de facto recognition" -- not de jure.
Why would you use that article's cite to support a claim of de jure?
This seems to be the point of view of wikipedia writers:
Quote:
Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially recognized as the State of Palestine[i] (Arabic: دولة فلسطين‎, romanized: Dawlat Filasṭīn) by the United Nations and other entities, is a de jure sovereign state[20][21] in Western Asia officially governed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and claiming the West Bank and Gaza Strip[2] with Jerusalem as the designated capital
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine).

I am not a lawyer, but it doesn't seem hard to figure out that a recognition by the U.N. General Assemby is about the best you can get for a de jure recognition of a new state. In addition, there is no incompatibility between de facto recognition and de jure recognition (you can have both at the same time). Claiming a de jure recognition probably puts Palestinian "victims" of U.S. and Israeli imperialism in a somewhat better position.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:01 AM   #1869
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Why? And what good would it have done with people who equate Israel with Nazi Germany?
Perhaps because it is good to have a few thoughts for the suffering victims of a long occupation when you are a famous person (fame may lead to social responsibility). Besides, Israel has no concentration or extermination camp, of course.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:30 AM   #1870
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Perhaps because it is good to have a few thoughts for the suffering victims of a long occupation when you are a famous person (fame may lead to social responsibility).
Nobody is under any obligation to care about whatever your pet cause is. You don't have to amend a simple greeting with callouts to every single group that might be suffering somewhere. And let me let you in on a dirty secret: if you're a Palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank, most of your suffering is at the hands of other Palestinians, not Israel.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:35 AM   #1871
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This seems to be the point of view of wikipedia writers:
Who the **** cares about the point of view of wikipedia writers?

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I am not a lawyer, but it doesn't seem hard to figure out that a recognition by the U.N. General Assemby is about the best you can get for a de jure recognition of a new state.
Yeah, no. The U.N. General Assembly is a joke, and their resolutions are absolutely NOT law.

Quote:
Claiming a de jure recognition probably puts Palestinian "victims" of U.S. and Israeli imperialism in a somewhat better position.
They can claim it all they want to, that won't make it true. And you've also given the game away: this is all just propaganda with a goal, not an accurate description of conditions.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:37 AM   #1872
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nobody is under any obligation to care about whatever your pet cause is. You don't have to amend a simple greeting with callouts to every single group that might be suffering somewhere. And let me let you in on a dirty secret: if you're a Palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank, most of your suffering is at the hands of other Palestinians, not Israel.
Gee I wonder what external conditions might exist to make Palestinian territory plagued by crime.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:50 AM   #1873
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This seems to be the point of view of wikipedia writers:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine).

I am not a lawyer, but it doesn't seem hard to figure out that a recognition by the U.N. General Assemby is about the best you can get for a de jure recognition of a new state. In addition, there is no incompatibility between de facto recognition and de jure recognition (you can have both at the same time). Claiming a de jure recognition probably puts Palestinian "victims" of U.S. and Israeli imperialism in a somewhat better position.
The Security Council is the legal authority.
Not the G-A.
(With an automatic Arab-led majority, the General Assembly resolutions regarding Israel are the WORST -- not best)

De jure means they have a PalestineState, legally, since "de jure" means a situation that is in accordance with law (i.e. that is officially sanctioned)
Which they cannot claim.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:55 AM   #1874
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Gee I wonder what external conditions might exist to make Palestinian territory plagued by crime.
I wonder the same thing, but unironically. What are the external conditions that make Palestinian territory plagued by crime?
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:57 AM   #1875
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The Security Council is the legal authority.
Not the G-A.
(With an automatic Arab-led majority, the General Assembly resolutions regarding Israel are the WORST -- not best)

De jure means they have a PalestineState, legally, since "de jure" means a situation that is in accordance with law (i.e. that is officially sanctioned)
Which they cannot claim.
Honestly I don't think statehood is something that can be claimed de jure anyway. Absent a binding and enforceable International Law, there's no way to get a de jure ruling. All nation-states are ultimately de facto.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 07:59 AM   #1876
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Gee I wonder what external conditions might exist to make Palestinian territory plagued by crime.
Gee, look in every direction throughout the Arab world, where can you point to an Arab State that's NOT plagued? (OMG, just look at Lebanon)
Palestinians would do well to emulate Israel, in so many spheres.
The 'externality' of Israel is something that has been promised (even by Yassir Arafat) to be developed into a confederation, a cooperation, a merger of two cultures.
Instead, their attitude remains "Eliminate Israel, from the River to the Sea" and "Intifada- Revolution" and "The State of Israel will remain until Islam obliterates it..." (direct quote from a governing body of de facto PalestineState) etc etc.
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:02 AM   #1877
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Honestly I don't think statehood is something that can be claimed de jure anyway. Absent a binding and enforceable International Law, there's no way to get a de jure ruling. All nation-states are ultimately de facto.
Uh, no.

'de jure' at least needs to have a defined territory.
Which Palestinians don't have.

(well, unless you consider their maps to be accurate)

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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:04 AM   #1878
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder the same thing, but unironically. What are the external conditions that make Palestinian territory plagued by crime?
The poverty conditions in Gaza are fairly uncomplicated to understand. It's a blockaded ghetto, anything but intense poverty is impossible there.

Agricultural pursuits are frequently hampered by land confiscation by the state or by illegal settlers. Apartheid policies that make Palestinians de-facto second class citizens make many forms of ordinary economic activity extremely unprofitable, if impossible.

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According to a 2012 report by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and interviews conducted by the Forward, the decline of the economy in East Jerusalem has led to unprecedented levels of poverty, with 80% of the Palestinian population living below the poverty line. The main cause is seen as the political and physical barriers separating it from the rest of the West Bank. The ACRI report attributing the problem to "'the cumulative effects of annexation, neglect, rights violations and the completion of the separation barrier."[48] Another contributing factor to the economic decline is the housing situation.[48] The Israeli government has facilitated extensive construction for Israeli settler neighborhoods, but has severely restricted development and building for the Palestinian population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...#By_sub-region
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:16 AM   #1879
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
...Besides, Israel has no concentration or extermination camp, of course.
That is not what I have read on the interwebs, as the claim is routinely made about Gaza being the largest open-air "concentration camp" on earth and that Israel is commiting genocide (extermination of a people).

For decades, I served in Gaza as a reservist in the IDF (called up for active duty one month every year, until I turned 52).

Not once (i.e. -- NEVER) was there an incident which I would consider to be anything less than professional or appropriate on the part of our Military Police unit.

I was actually right there in Gaza on the fateful day in December 1987 when a car accident caused the 1st Intifada to erupt (based on fake news, which was spread widely on Arab media that the IDF INTENTIONALLY RETALIATED against the random busload of Arabs, as payback for the stabbing of an Israeli man in Gaza two days earlier.)
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Old 2nd August 2021, 08:24 AM   #1880
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The poverty conditions in Gaza are fairly uncomplicated to understand. It's a blockaded ghetto, anything but intense poverty is impossible there.

Agricultural pursuits are frequently hampered by land confiscation by the state or by illegal settlers. Apartheid policies that make Palestinians de-facto second class citizens make many forms of ordinary economic activity extremely unprofitable, if impossible.
When my friends had a juice-drink bottling factory in Gaza (back in the 70's and 80's) they did great. In fact, they didn't stop making their popular juices until 2005, when they were forced to evacuate, and turn over their factory to the Arabs.
Which was promptly burned down.


ETA:
There are no 'apartheid' policies in our country.

West Bank Palestinians do OK, and their GNP increases annually.
I don't have the exact statistic in front of me at the moment, but my understanding is that Palestinians continue to harvest more olives (45% of the agricultural land) than ever in the history of the world. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reco...-olive-harvest

Last edited by webfusion; 2nd August 2021 at 08:32 AM.
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