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Tags court cases , rape cases , rape incidents , rape issues

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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:55 PM   #41
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The only question I have is why the poster dismisses rape as "they hooked up".

There are plenty of teens and young adults having sex after a few drinks. Very few of these rape cases are about two people "hooking up". They are about boys and young men raping passed-out girls and women.

The poster sounds like it was produced by some adults trying to scare kids into behaving. It not only doesn't work, it repeats the stereotype that the guys aren't guilty, they are being called rapists when those girls were responsible for getting drunk at a party. There skirts were too short, evil temptresses, it's OK for boys to have sex but the girls they have sex with are whores.

I'm sure more than one girl has falsely accused a guy of raping her after they had sex. But that's not usually the case. Teens have sex. They drink.

This was rape.
...are you reacting to the OP, to the poster image, to somebody's remarks here, or just projecting a whole buncha stuff straight from your own head?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:03 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The judge is clearly in the wrong here, but I'd vote against the judge even having the discretion to charge a 16 year old "as an adult." A 16 year old isn't an adult. Unless we are going to have judges judging case-by-case when someone becomes an adult for voting, drinking or contracts, we should not have judges judging individual cases as to when someone becomes an adult for raping.
Not a lawyer, but reading about the case it seems there is a motion that addresses in what instances a case should be moved to adult court. The prosecution has the burden of showing the specific case meets the criteria. The judge then has to make a decision on if the prosecution's motion to move has matched the criteria. Filing motion seeking waiver of jurisdiction; hearing.

So it really just comes down to what crimes when the motion was crafted were considered reasonable to have moved to adult court and what criteria must be met. The judge simply has the power to see if such conditions were met by the prosecution, which is why the judge's ruling was overturned.

Last edited by rdwight; 3rd July 2019 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The answer seems to be that women have no agency. According to the image.

That's a joke image, I assume?
Doubtful. I looked quickly for it and found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoo...i_keep_saying/

According to the top comment it was a poster campaign at Coastal Carolina University.

These things are often framed in a gendered lens so I'm not surprised.

edit: I wouldn't be surprised if it was a joke, either. I just happen to think this one is real

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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
...are you reacting to the OP, to the poster image, to somebody's remarks here, or just projecting a whole buncha stuff straight from your own head?
I'm reacting to the poster, I said so in my post.

Yeah it's in my head, it's called learning and experience. What is it in my post you don't agree with?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Doubtful. I looked quickly for it and found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoo...i_keep_saying/

According to the top comment it was a poster campaign at Coastal Carolina University.

These things are often framed in a gendered lens so I'm not surprised.

edit: I wouldn't be surprised if it was a joke, either. I just happen to think this one is real
Universities have had to address the issue of "no means no" so I imagine now that we know the context of the poster that that was the motive then behind the poster.

I doubt the person(s) who created it understood the message, "just hooking up" is not the same as, "she said no".

We've had pages long debates about this with some people taking the absurd position, if a woman has had one drink she can't consent. Then there was the obvious next comment, so if two married people go out for drinks they shouldn't have sex when they get home?

This went round and round. I'm comfortable recognizing women like sex and every case of a drink and sex is not the same. It's the pushy guy who won't take no for an answer that is the problem and old movies with that stupid theme, kiss her she wants it, are partly to blame.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:46 PM   #46
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https://time.com/5619918/judge-james...een-rape-case/
Quote:
In Troiano’s ruling, which recently became public in the appeals process, he said the teen who is accused of filming his alleged rape and sharing the video with friends was an Eagle Scout who came from a “good family” and was doing “extremely well” at an “excellent school.”

Prosecutors said the 16-year-old boy, identified only as “G.M.C.” in court documents, filmed himself penetrating the girl, also 16, from behind, showing her bare torso and her head hanging down in a darkened room.
Has anyone tried to justify why the rapist was not tried for producing and distributing child pornography?

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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:06 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not a fan that, outside of very rare on-off cases like parental emancipation, that in our legal system the only time a minor magically becomes an adult is when they did something wrong.

Please note that not trying them as an adult does not mean letting them get away with things or not getting justice to any victims of any crimes they might commit.

But yeah there is something off about someone committing rape (legally) when they couldn't have legally had sex. You can't go before a judge and go "I think I'm old and mature enough to bang" so it should work inverted in the opposite direction.
I think it's one glaring hole in the law treating everyone 0-17 as a minor.

It goes from a literal baby to a legal adult in many other countries, and essentially adult physically, though we wouldn't expect most younger kids to be involved.

But rape in high school, particularly involving upperclassmen, if they were just a tad bit older they'd certiainly be charged as adults. On paper yeah we can't really charge you as an adult but you did an act typical of adult males just a few years older than you...some of whom might be in your circle of friends.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:21 PM   #48
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Yeah, I'd be happier with some kind of graduated system instead of trying minors 'as adults' for murder, rape, etc. Small children, preteens, teenagers and adults all have pretty different degrees of that 'being able to fully understand the consequences to others or even to yourself, of what you're doing' thing, and IMO should all face consequences, but different consequences. I wouldn't want to lock up this little ******* for five years, but he needs way more than a slap on the wrist or a nothing.

ETA: More graduated than just minor or adult, I mean.

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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:46 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
And actually this is primal universal behavior of men anyway.
If this is universal male behaviour then why have I, a straight male, never raped and never wanted to rape a single woman?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If this is universal male behaviour then why have I, a straight male, never raped and never wanted to rape a single woman?
Universal as in men everywhere do it, not that all individual men commit rape. My point to cullennz being he didn't need to learn that behavior from anybody.

Also, you may say that, but phenomena like war rape exist among the military. We can't be certain of what we're capable of.

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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:03 PM   #51
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Just a reminder that the punk who did this called it rape.

If I'm a prosecutor, my argument is that when the accused tells you what they did is illegal, believe them.

And in calling it rape, he was fully aware that it was wrong, so don't give me the "juveniles don't comprehend the significance of their actions."

I'm usually not big on trying juveniles as adults, but this guy is a predator. He thinks rape is funny and cool. He's not safe for society.

His words betray him.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Universal as in men everywhere do it, not that all individual men commit rape. My point to cullennz being he didn't need to learn that behavior from anybody.

Also, you may say that, but phenomena like war rape exist among the military. We can't be certain of what we're capable of.
I think we call it "universal human behavior" if women also do it. Such as rape


Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Just a reminder that the punk who did this called it rape.

If I'm a prosecutor, my argument is that when the accused tells you what they did is illegal, believe them.

And in calling it rape, he was fully aware that it was wrong, so don't give me the "juveniles don't comprehend the significance of their actions."

I'm usually not big on trying juveniles as adults, but this guy is a predator. He thinks rape is funny and cool. He's not safe for society.

His words betray him.
Good point. I wonder how this is addressed.

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Old 3rd July 2019, 10:01 PM   #53
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I saw a Facebook post by someone who wanted rape to be as unthinkable as cannibalism. I started wondering then, how we learn a revulsion to cannibalism? What is different about rape that it's not seen as being serious at all?
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:08 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
....

And actually this is primal universal behavior of men anyway. It doesn't magically come up at a legal age, like we like to pretend in the back of our minds. .
You got any evidence for this BS?
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:12 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The only question I have is why the poster dismisses rape as "they hooked up".

There are plenty of teens and young adults having sex after a few drinks. Very few of these rape cases are about two people "hooking up". They are about boys and young men raping passed-out girls and women.

The poster sounds like it was produced by some adults trying to scare kids into behaving. It not only doesn't work, it repeats the stereotype that the guys aren't guilty, they are being called rapists when those girls were responsible for getting drunk at a party. There skirts were too short, evil temptresses, it's OK for boys to have sex but the girls they have sex with are whores.

I'm sure more than one girl has falsely accused a guy of raping her after they had sex. But that's not usually the case. Teens have sex. They drink.

This was rape.
Yes, and in the case in the OP, the rapist publicly acknowledged it with his social media post.

Similarly with the Polanski rape, the question over whether a *thirteen* year old could consent when drugged and drunk is a red herring as she *still* said no. One can definitely *refuse* consent below the age of consent.

ETA: No always means no, but yes doesn't always mean yes, it depends on context.
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Old 4th July 2019, 05:38 AM   #56
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NPR had a segment last year detailing four young men who had between them accounted for over 40 rapes. They freely admitted this and did not consider feeding the women their “special punch” to the point of passing out and then having sex with them to be “rape”.

Just good clean fraternity-brother fun....

Again, this was brought up in the sexual-assault seminar we had recently; this is a common tactic and definitely NOT two juicy young people having a few drinks and then having consensual sex.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
NPR had a segment last year detailing four young men who had between them accounted for over 40 rapes. They freely admitted this and did not consider feeding the women their “special punch” to the point of passing out and then having sex with them to be “rape”.

Just good clean fraternity-brother fun....

Again, this was brought up in the sexual-assault seminar we had recently; this is a common tactic and definitely NOT two juicy young people having a few drinks and then having consensual sex.
Indeed, and an obvious difference is getting the victim far mor drunk than the perpetrator(s), who would have been unable to rape anyone if they were as drunk.
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:49 PM   #58
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Eh, no worth the effort.
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Universal as in men everywhere do it, not that all individual men commit rape. My point to cullennz being he didn't need to learn that behavior from anybody.

Also, you may say that, but phenomena like war rape exist among the military. We can't be certain of what we're capable of.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:01 PM   #60
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God, I hate rape threads.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:23 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
God, I hate rape threads.
Same. I think they go downhill quick.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:24 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You got any evidence for this BS?
Thought it was self evident.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:54 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Universal as in men everywhere do it, not that all individual men commit rape.
So you meant "widespread", then.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Thought it was self evident.
"primal universal behavior"

Wonder why in my many years I've only come across a couple of these guys.
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:22 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Universal as in men everywhere do it, not that all individual men commit rape. My point to cullennz being he didn't need to learn that behavior from anybody.

Is that true? Do (some) men everywhere actually do it? Have studies been made that confirm that no cultures exist where (some) men don't rape?

Quote:
Also, you may say that, but phenomena like war rape exist among the military. We can't be certain of what we're capable of.

Who are "we"?! Are there any studies of this alleged phenomenon, i.e. that those of us who haven't raped and who are disgusted by the idea of rape might some day find rape appealing and begin to rape?
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:32 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's the pushy guy who won't take no for an answer that is the problem and old movies with that stupid theme, kiss her she wants it, are partly to blame.

Not just movies! Baby, it's cold outside ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 6th July 2019, 12:46 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://time.com/5619918/judge-james...een-rape-case/

Has anyone tried to justify why the rapist was not tried for producing and distributing child pornography?

Last year in Denmark, more than 1,000 young people were charged with having shared a video on Facebook of two 15-year-olds having sex:
Over 1.000 unge sigtes for at have delt børneporno på nettet (DR.dk, Jan. 15, 2018)

0-14-year-olds are considered sexual minors in Denmark. But pornography with 0-17-year-olds is considered child pornography.
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Old 6th July 2019, 01:05 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If this is universal male behaviour then why have I, a straight male, never raped and never wanted to rape a single woman?
Don't feed us straight lines.
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Old 6th July 2019, 01:22 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://time.com/5619918/judge-james...een-rape-case/

Has anyone tried to justify why the rapist was not tried for producing and distributing child pornography?

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Old 8th July 2019, 04:39 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Just a reminder that the punk who did this called it rape.

If I'm a prosecutor, my argument is that when the accused tells you what they did is illegal, believe them.

And in calling it rape, he was fully aware that it was wrong, so don't give me the "juveniles don't comprehend the significance of their actions."

I'm usually not big on trying juveniles as adults, but this guy is a predator. He thinks rape is funny and cool. He's not safe for society.

His words betray him.
Indeed.

Usually the problem with these date-rape scenarios is that often the case hinges on difficult to prove things, like states of mind, relative sobriety, informed consent, etc. Things that often don't leave physical evidence and only exist in the minds of the people involved and are often very difficult to determine after the fact. This case, like many others like it, no one disputes that sex occurred, it's a matter of states of mind of the two involved.

It is often hard to determine, with any certainty, whether someone had predatory intent when engaging in a drunken sexual encounter. Someone who does so usually has enough sense of self-preservation to not admit such predatory intent, especially in the context of a criminal investigation. The unsatisfactory result is that these kinds of rape cases are often very difficult to prove the high standard required for criminal conviction.

Luckily for us, our perpetrator was dumb enough to document his state of mind. The statement "When your first time is rape", along with the other relevant context, might as well be smoking gun evidence of criminal intent to commit rape. The video is itself child pornography, and creating, possessing, and distributing it are all crimes.

Whether or not he should be tried as an adult is a more complicated matter, but this biased judge should not be involved in that decision. The whole process should be started anew, with that judge nowhere near it.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://time.com/5619918/judge-james...een-rape-case/

Has anyone tried to justify why the rapist was not tried for producing and distributing child pornography?

Ranb

I'm curious if such a charge for CP would fall into that locality's jurisdiction. I would guess that such a charge would come from federal law enforcement.

What a delicious twist of fate if this outrageous leniency and the news coverage surrounding it resulted in the feds moving on this case, where previously they may not have.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:45 PM   #72
luchog
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm curious if such a charge for CP would fall into that locality's jurisdiction. I would guess that such a charge would come from federal law enforcement.

Child Pornography legislation is kind of all over the map; but except in the case of interstate trafficking, the federal government typically leaves prosecution to the state governments, which has primary jurisdiction in state cases.

This does point out just how screwed up and outright insane laws are in this country. Teenagers have been arrested for creating and distributing child pornography simply for taking nude selfies and sending them to friends. IIRC in one case (which may have been overturned on appeal, I can't recall of the top of my head), a 16 year old boy, the "perpetrator" was convicted and forced to register as a sex offender, pretty much a death sentence to any chance of higher education, or employment at anything but menial labour. The difference? His family couldn't afford the expensive hot-shot lawyers, and the local DA was a "law and order" type who wanted to "send a message".
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:21 AM   #73
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https://news.yahoo.com/judge-said-te...104208663.html
Quote:
A New Jersey judge who said a teenage boy accused of rape should get leniency because he came from a “good family” has received threats amid a ferocious backlash against his ruling.
Death threats because you don't agree with a judge's rulings is wrong. But I'm not shedding a tear for this judge who is trying to be part of the problem instead of the solution.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://news.yahoo.com/judge-said-te...104208663.html

Death threats because you don't agree with a judge's rulings is wrong. But I'm not shedding a tear for this judge who is trying to be part of the problem instead of the solution.
Yea those are reserved for women who post opinions of the internet or get elected as democrats.
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