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Old 8th July 2019, 08:53 PM   #281
arthwollipot
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It's impossible to entirely divorce emotion from human reasoning. A lot of subjects carry emotional baggage, and it's important to acknowledge that. We shouldn't allow our decisions to be made in the absence of reason. Reason and emotion coexist.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:57 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What use do you see skepticism as having for you?

I think that's an important question in order to analyse whether or not you are doing it in a way that's tailored to those aims, whatever they may be.
I really don't need it for anything. I'm not a very curious person and have come to realize I'm far more comfortable being in a status of rejecting all claims on an issue than others.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:57 PM   #283
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I really don't need it for anything. I'm not a very curious person and have come to realize I'm far more comfortable being in a status of rejecting all claims on an issue than others.
Then why are you here? Why do you think here is the right place for you to be?
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:02 PM   #284
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Then why are you here? Why do you think here is the right place for you to be?
Not here for any particular reason. Just dig the vibe.
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Old 8th July 2019, 09:09 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not here for any particular reason. Just dig the vibe.
"Just dig the vibe".

You know what? I'm okay with that. You keep on digging that vibe.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:33 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not here for any particular reason. Just dig the vibe.
So you are here for a particular reason.

Originally Posted by Venom
A plus, if indeed there is any, is Bob's apparently unemotional approach to every issue
Yes, he does good job of hiding it (or at least he thinks he does). But every now and then the mask slips and we find out what he really thinks.

In reality Bob is just like the rest of us 'skeptics', pretending to engage in unemotional debate while being driven by fear and desire. Bob tries real hard to obfuscate that link, but not all of us are fooled. Most of the time his tactics are so transparent it's laughable.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:00 AM   #287
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
So you are here for a particular reason.
I think one of the antonyms of particular, inexact, is a better description.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
A plus, if indeed there is any, is Bob's apparently unemotional approach to every issue, something I've tried to be mindful of.

To get back on topic of the TS, emotional arguments can have some place in skeptical analysis, but it's best to leave them on the back burner, especially for sensitive issues, else you end up with the mess you see in the politics and social issues sections.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's impossible to entirely divorce emotion from human reasoning. A lot of subjects carry emotional baggage, and it's important to acknowledge that. We shouldn't allow our decisions to be made in the absence of reason. Reason and emotion coexist.
I mostly agree with arth. I think the important distinction is that emotion provides our motivation towards a goal, while reason is best to find the path to get there. As to the place in arguments, you have to engage emotion to motivate, so if it's a difference of goals often times that's the only place to make an appeal. Also, any reasoned plan has to take the emotion and motivation of those involved into it into account or it will fail; this is the problem with most of the "society would work perfect if" ideas.

All that being said, I think Chanakya hit the nail on the head. Almost all of of us, at times, get dragged into arguments that really are pointless and beside the point, because things get side-tracked and it becomes about the argument rather than the topic of the argument. A lot of this is encouraged by pedantry and "gotcha" moments, which are themselves signs of losing focus in the argument.

I think all of us fall victim to this on occasion, but seriously. There are some topics where I have things I'd like to say, but avoid posting because I know someone is going to play with the words, or twist what I've said, or read between the lines to add about four levels to what I actually said, and I have no interest in spending three pages trying to clarify a perfectly clear point that someone wants to nitpick at just for arguments sake. OR there are those that will take it off-topic entirely and turn it into a veiled insult contest (i.e.- any thread about firearms).

But it is what it is. Skeptics are human, too (except for maybe Bob...and no, that's not a compliment).
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:30 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Now drink this hemlock, Bob.
"The Greeks were so enlightened, they gave us Socrates!"
"Yeah, they also killed him for being annoying."
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:33 AM   #290
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The problem is while technically true (which contrary to popular belief is the worst kind of true, not the best kind) the "But nobody is 100% logical" thing almost always carries with it an implied argument that emotionalism in arguments is something to be glorified.

There's a reason logic is valued as a problem solving method.

Factoring emotions into an argument is not the same thing as making an emotional argument. Feeling passionate about something is not the same thing as your argument about the thing being emotional.

I feel very strongly that 2+2=4. If someone where to argue that 2+2=7 or 2+2=A Potato or 2+2 is a very personal and subjective question that everyone has their own equal and valid opinion on and why is it so important that I'm right can't I just let people think what they want I mean they aren't hurting anybody.... I would react to that in an emotionally negative way. That doesn't make the question of 2+2 an emotional one.
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:41 AM   #291
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I very much like and mostly agree with the last post by Hellbound.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:17 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not here for any particular reason. Just dig the vibe.
Honestly, Bob, I quite dig your candor. I don't often see its equal.

You are an enigma. I hope you never leave.

Now just remember that I said that the next time you piss me off and I snap at you.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:20 PM   #293
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Irony is that some of the Titanic Conspiracy theories were started in the mid 90's back in USENET days as satires on Conspiracy Theories, proving you can create a crackpot conspiracy theory about just about anything.The Titanic was used because it was very hot subject after the James Cameron movie came out in 1997. And they were taken seriously by the kooks.
My own favorite satire of CT was the Irish Potato Famine Conspiracy, proving that the Irish Potato Famine of the 1840's was phony, created by the Irish to create sympathy for the creation of a Free Irish State.,....
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:22 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Irony is that some of the Titanic Conspiracy theories were started in the mid 90's back in USENET days as satires on Conspiracy Theories, proving you can create a crackpot conspiracy theory about just about anything.The Titanic was used because it was very hot subject after the James Cameron movie came out in 1997. And they were taken seriously by the kooks.
My own favorite satire of CT was the Irish Potato Famine Conspiracy, proving that the Irish Potato Famine of the 1840's was phony, created by the Irish to create sympathy for the creation of a Free Irish State.,....
One of my favorites from about the same time, The NASA Galileo mission was sent to Jupiter in order to turn Jupiter into a second star to fight Global Cooling.

The jist, mostly wrong:
Jupiter was just shy of the mass required to start fusing hydrogen. (This was taught to me in grade school.)
A bunch of Scientists who worked on Galileo had worked on the Manhattan project but not any other NASA projects. (Probably not true.)
Back in the day "scientists" were worried about global cooling. I believed this at the time(1990s) but I appear to have false memories on the subject.
Galileo used an innovative nuclear battery.

Thus Galileo was a nuclear bomb meant to kick start fusion when it plunged into the Jovian atmosphere. Anyrate, a coworker an I talked about this a lot with neither of quite sure if the other believed it, for that matter, I wasn't sure if I did or not.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
One of my favorites from about the same time, The NASA Galileo mission was sent to Jupiter in order to turn Jupiter into a second star to fight Global Cooling.

The jist, mostly wrong:
Jupiter was just shy of the mass required to start fusing hydrogen. (This was taught to me in grade school.)
Kind of true the smallest star is only 20% more massive according to this. So within an order of magnitude is pretty close really.

https://www.universetoday.com/25348/...smallest-star/
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:27 AM   #296
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That's also the plot to 2010.
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:22 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's also the plot to 2010.
So there was even prior documentary evidence!

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Old 10th July 2019, 12:11 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
So there was even prior documentary evidence!

TOYNBEE IDEA
IN MOViE `2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPiTER
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:46 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not interested in solving problems with skepticism. And until this is international solve-problems forums, I'm in the right place.
Solipsism isn’t skepticism, or even philosophy.

How is that naval you gaze at?
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:15 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Solipsism isn’t skepticism, or even philosophy.

How is that naval you gaze at?
I'm not engaging in solipsism. It isn't solipsism to ask if there is any evidence backing up a claim.
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Old 11th July 2019, 12:07 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not engaging in solipsism. It isn't solipsism to ask if there is any evidence backing up a claim.
The way you do it? Yes.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:29 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The way you do it? Yes.
It is adherence to scientific skepticism. Just because people don't think it is appropriate doesn't make it solipsism.
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Old 13th July 2019, 01:28 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Almost all of of us, at times, get dragged into arguments that really are pointless and beside the point, because things get side-tracked and it becomes about the argument rather than the topic of the argument.
Not all of us get 'dragged into' pointless arguments - for some it's the main attraction!
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Old 13th July 2019, 05:56 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's impossible to entirely divorce emotion from human reasoning. A lot of subjects carry emotional baggage, and it's important to acknowledge that. We shouldn't allow our decisions to be made in the absence of reason. Reason and emotion coexist.
We get this on Quora all the time... “Should I go with my heart or my head”... “Should I trust my gut or reason”...
That sort of thing.

And my answer is pretty much what Arthwollipot says here.
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Old 13th July 2019, 06:28 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's impossible to entirely divorce emotion from human reasoning. A lot of subjects carry emotional baggage, and it's important to acknowledge that. We shouldn't allow our decisions to be made in the absence of reason. Reason and emotion coexist.

But whenever your reason tells you that something you feel emotionally drawn to probably isn't a good idea, it usually isn't.
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Old 16th July 2019, 06:35 PM   #306
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In a short span of time I've seen four ISf member use the phrase, "you should be ashamed of yourself." This is a forum full grown (old) men talking to each other like insufferable women. Skeptics don't even try to have arguments, they go straight for the shaming tactics. And they are getting more and more pathetic.
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Old 16th July 2019, 06:52 PM   #307
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Oh good, the guy who calls everybody old is back!
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:20 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In a short span of time I've seen four ISf member use the phrase, "you should be ashamed of yourself." This is a forum full grown (old) men talking to each other like insufferable women. Skeptics don't even try to have arguments, they go straight for the shaming tactics. And they are getting more and more pathetic.
Some people do say some stuff here that they should be ashamed of.
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:49 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In a short span of time I've seen four ISf member use the phrase, "you should be ashamed of yourself." This is a forum full grown (old) men talking to each other like insufferable women. Skeptics don't even try to have arguments, they go straight for the shaming tactics. And they are getting more and more pathetic.
Must... resist... yellow card... urrrrgggghhhh!

Dammit, I think I strained something.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:26 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Oh good, the guy who calls everybody old is back!
Well to be fair... some of us are old.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:30 PM   #311
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Hahaha, you've been alive longer than me! How lame. Only squares don't die in their thirties. Next, I'll mock your blood type. Universal donor, you say? Pssshh, sounds liberal. Gross.

I'm good at this!
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:33 PM   #312
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I'm an A+.

I really am. I can show you my donor card.
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:11 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In a short span of time I've seen four ISf member use the phrase, "you should be ashamed of yourself." This is a forum full grown (old) men talking to each other like insufferable women. Skeptics don't even try to have arguments, they go straight for the shaming tactics. And they are getting more and more pathetic.
Shaming is one of the methods that our species uses to enforce moral norms. This has been the case for at least hundreds of thousands of years and certainly isn't restricted to women.

While purely rational discussion limited to the implications of a particular argument, it's factual basis, etc. shouldn't include such as part of examining the truth or lack thereof of any particular position, this forum isn't limited only to such a limited form of examination.

While I tend to think that too much shaming goes on here for my own taste, the idea that the fact that it exists at all is evidence that there's a problem with the forum isn't valid.
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:40 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Shaming is one of the methods that our species uses to enforce moral norms. This has been the case for at least hundreds of thousands of years and certainly isn't restricted to women.

While purely rational discussion limited to the implications of a particular argument, it's factual basis, etc. shouldn't include such as part of examining the truth or lack thereof of any particular position, this forum isn't limited only to such a limited form of examination.

While I tend to think that too much shaming goes on here for my own taste, the idea that the fact that it exists at all is evidence that there's a problem with the forum isn't valid.
Sometimes when rational argument has failed, other methods are tried.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:28 AM   #315
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Expressing the view that something is shameful isn't necessarily irrational or un-skeptic-ish.

But yes, I guess the skeptic must, if challenged (challenged in good faith, as opposed to simply trolled), be prepared to defend their view by clearly explaining exactly how something is shameful.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:36 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Hahaha, you've been alive longer than me! How lame. Only squares don't die in their thirties. Next, I'll mock your blood type. Universal donor, you say? Pssshh, sounds liberal. Gross.

I'm good at this!

O M G, thirties? That's, like, so-old!
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:36 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Expressing the view that something is shameful isn't necessarily irrational or un-skeptic-ish.

But yes, I guess the skeptic must, if challenged (challenged in good faith, as opposed to simply trolled), be prepared to defend their view by clearly explaining exactly how something is shameful.
Yeah, not blatant racism for example.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:27 AM   #318
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I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean that what appears blatant racism to you (or to me) must necessarily be censured, without stopping to clarify why? Afraid I don't agree, if that's what you mean.

Take Trump's recent comments. Obviously racist, right? Bit still, if questioned (questioned in earnest, as opposed to simply trolled), I'd say we must be prepared to explain how those comments were clearly racist, and why exactly what he said is shameful, why not?

After all what's obvious to you or me may not be obvious to someone else. And what appears obvious to you or to me may, on examination and discussion, turn out, just perhaps, to be wrong after all.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:41 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In a short span of time I've seen four ISf member use the phrase, "you should be ashamed of yourself." This is a forum full grown (old) men talking to each other like insufferable women. Skeptics don't even try to have arguments, they go straight for the shaming tactics. And they are getting more and more pathetic.
And then there were five..
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #320
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A long time ago someone referred to the Politics section of this forum as "where rational thought goes to die".
That is truer now more then ever.
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