ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 15th March 2018, 12:40 PM   #1
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Bridge collapse in Florida

Not sure how many casualties, yet, but a newly erected footbridge has collapsed across a duel carriageway. There will be some structural engineers panicking tonight, and checking their calculations for the 27th time.

BBC

The article says it was a cable-suspension bridge, but there were no signs of it being anything other than a truss, so I wonder if it was in a part-built state. Nonetheless, someone will have calculated that it was strong enough to span in the condition it was in.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 15th March 2018 at 12:44 PM.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 12:43 PM   #2
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,891
CNN says multiple casualties. It was installed last Saturday.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 12:50 PM   #3
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,727
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not sure how many casualties, yet, but a newly erected footbridge has collapsed across a duel carriageway. There will be some structural engineers panicking tonight, and checking their calculations for the 27th time.

BBC

The article says it was a cable-suspension bridge, but there were no signs of it being anything other than a truss, so I wonder if it was in a part-built state. Nonetheless, someone will have calculated that it was strong enough to span in the condition it was in.
No it shows a video of it being lifted into place and put on the supports at the ends. No actual construction of the span on site.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 12:52 PM   #4
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
...... It was installed last Saturday.

The main body of the bridge was, yes, but they were definitely still working on it. I'd love to know what the final design was going to be. Was this structurally complete, and they were just doing handrails and lights, that sort of thing, or was there some other major engineering yet to be put in place. It does seem a bit odd that there wasn't support in the middle, in the dead space between the two carriageways.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 12:54 PM   #5
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No it shows a video of it being lifted into place and put on the supports at the ends. No actual construction of the span on site.
Except that video says it was to be a suspension bridge...which it certainly wasn't at the time of collapse. Someone somewhere has got their wires crossed.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:02 PM   #6
GodMark2
Master Poster
 
GodMark2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 2,065
The images I can find are either of the destroyed state, in-construction pictures, or possible mock-ups for articles like "MCM Awarded the FIU Pedestrian Bridge". The potential mock-ups all show a cable-stayed bridge, the rubble is unclear.

Could there have been a design decision partway through the process that contributed?
__________________
Knowing that we do not know, it does not necessarily follow that we can not know.
GodMark2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:05 PM   #7
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Yep, they all show a central tower which hadn't been built, and cables from that to the main truss. When you see those the reason for the slightly odd truss design becomes obvious.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:06 PM   #8
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,727
Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
The images I can find are either of the destroyed state, in-construction pictures, or possible mock-ups for articles like "MCM Awarded the FIU Pedestrian Bridge". The potential mock-ups all show a cable-stayed bridge, the rubble is unclear.

Could there have been a design decision partway through the process that contributed?
The video of the bridge as it was installed was a truss though.

https://twitter.com/FIU/status/972529770683564033
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:16 PM   #9
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Yeah, ponderingturtle, that was just the lower part of the structure:



So clearly there was a lot of structural work left to do, including building the tower and attaching the cables.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 15th March 2018 at 01:17 PM.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:23 PM   #10
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,891
I just saw live helicopter scenes in close-up. There are many cars underneath which are totally pancaked. I don't think that any occupants could be alive and also cannot even be seen. Like an industrial car crusher.

I can't imagine that the casualties are below ten.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:36 PM   #11
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 31,691
This thing was at an intersection, so several cars were just sitting at a stoplight under it, when it when down. From different views I've seen, there are 6 to 8 cars completely crushed under the rubble, and a couple more that were half way under it. Not to make it a guessing game, but I'd say at least a dozen people killed.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:39 PM   #12
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,018
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So clearly there was a lot of structural work left to do, including building the tower and attaching the cables.
It seems odd to me that they removed the scaffolding support from underneath it before they even built the tower that the cables would attach.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:42 PM   #13
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,697
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It seems odd to me that they removed the scaffolding support from underneath it before they even built the tower that the cables would attach.
Someone forgot a decimal point or a memo on this one..................
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:49 PM   #14
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,412
ABC reported that a stress test was being done when it collapsed.

Wouldn't they stop traffic for that?
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:51 PM   #15
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Just as an aside, it would have looked so much more attractive with a gentle curve on the truss, rather than a straight parallel structure.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 01:58 PM   #16
EventHorizon
Atheist Tergiversator
 
EventHorizon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,103
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
ABC reported that a stress test was being done when it collapsed.

Wouldn't they stop traffic for that?
Wow. If that's true that's unbelievable.

Seems this bridge was being constructed using a new Accelerated Bridge Construction method. Now I don't want to jump to conclusions but...

Anyway, here are some articles and a fact sheet about the bridge:

https://news.fiu.edu/2018/03/communi...-street/120395

http://communitynewspapers.com/flori...gs-into-place/

https://news.fiu.edu/wp-content/uplo...18_DIGITAL.pdf
__________________
"One of the hardest parts of being an active skeptic - of anything - is knowing when to cut your losses, and then doing so."
-Phil Plait
EventHorizon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:08 PM   #17
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,848
Quote:
Munilla Construction company (MCM), a family-owned contractor that helped build the bridge, tweeted "thoughts and prayers" for those affected by the tragedy.
I'm sure that makes the bereaved feel SO much better.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:11 PM   #18
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
MCM seem to have taken their website down. Unless it was a design-and-build job, or they didn't build what and how they were told to build by the structural engineers, I wouldn't have thought they were the prime culprit.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:12 PM   #19
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,159
Smells to me they opened the bridge for traffic way too early.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 15th March 2018 at 02:13 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:13 PM   #20
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,412
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Smells to me they opened the bridge for traffic way too early.
One of our engineers at work..who has designed smaller scale foot bridges,says this screams of either a contractor using borderline materials or rushed constructin methods. TO mess up the basic desing on a foot bridge would be really hard,it's not parituclary tricky.
It's a pedestrian bridge and it was not due to open for a long time yet.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:15 PM   #21
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,568
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Smells to me they opened the bridge for traffic way too early.
(Admitted total spitballing) Or traffic opened itself way early. I've seen plenty of people drive around railroad guards, orange cones, barriers, flood waters. One person deciding they weren't going to wait and the Lemming effect taking over isn't completely impossible.

But yeah much more likely if the traffic was supposed to be stopped it wasn't.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:25 PM   #22
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,436
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Just as an aside, it would have looked so much more attractive with a gentle curve on the truss, rather than a straight parallel structure.
Yes, the design is a bit of a let down.
Giz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:28 PM   #23
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Smells to me they opened the bridge for traffic way too early.
It wasn't open. there was a large element of the structure not even started. There were workmen on the top when it collapsed.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:43 PM   #24
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
(Admitted total spitballing) Or traffic opened itself way early. I've seen plenty of people drive around railroad guards, orange cones, barriers, flood waters. One person deciding they weren't going to wait and the Lemming effect taking over isn't completely impossible.

But yeah much more likely if the traffic was supposed to be stopped it wasn't.

It was a pedestrian bridge. There wasn't going to be anyone driving on it even when it was finished.

Which it wasn't.

There was no way for anyone to drive on it even if they wanted to try. No way for a car to get on it.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:44 PM   #25
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 23,758
Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
Wow. If that's true that's unbelievable.

Seems this bridge was being constructed using a new Accelerated Bridge Construction method. Now I don't want to jump to conclusions but...
It grieves me to reference a tweet here, but this one is very interesting, and along those lines.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:45 PM   #26
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,568
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It was a pedestrian bridge. There wasn't going to be anyone driving on it even when it was finished.

Which it wasn't.

There was no way for anyone to drive on it even if they wanted to try. No way for a car to get on it.
I was thinking vehicle traffic under the bridge during load testing.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:47 PM   #27
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,804
One of the tweets in that link says an eye witness said the truss itself didn't collapse, it was one of the end supports.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:54 PM   #28
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 23,758
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It was a pedestrian bridge. There wasn't going to be anyone driving on it even when it was finished.

Which it wasn't.

There was no way for anyone to drive on it even if they wanted to try. No way for a car to get on it.
In point of fact I don't think there was an easy way for pedestrians to get on it either - it looks like the ends, including the ramps needed by people to access the bridge, weren't built yet.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 02:56 PM   #29
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Here's my way too early spitballing.

The section which they had set in place was supposed to have sufficient structural integrity to support itself while the remainder of the structure was put in place. Apparently this was going to be more than merely a footbridge, but also a gathering place, etc. The anticipated load of lots of people at once (among the largest loads you can put on a structure not intended for heavy equipment) is what necessitated the cable supports which had not been erected yet.

There was a failure, I'm thinking something to do with the concrete. I'd like to know more about how it was reinforced, though. The failure was somewhere around the area where the section of the bridge at an angle (opposite side of the road from the canal) is resting on the ground.

When it failed it pulled the other end of the bridge section off of the pier supporting it, and the entire length in between simply dropped flat.

There are a number of good still shots of the wreckage in this ABC report.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:02 PM   #30
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I was thinking vehicle traffic under the bridge during load testing.

I'm a bit leery of the "load testing" comment. It has the smell of a comment perhaps not properly understood by the reporter. I'm not sure what sort of significant load testing of the entire section of structure would be done so far before the actual primary support system for the bridge was put into place.

But the entire plan was to enable traffic flow underneath the bridge section except for the few hours when it was being set into place. Traffic had been travelling under it for days already.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:06 PM   #31
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,159
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It wasn't open. there was a large element of the structure not even started. There were workmen on the top when it collapsed.
I feel stupid for having missed that.

But I would say that the contruction firm is in some real deep kimchee,though...
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:07 PM   #32
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
One of the tweets in that link says an eye witness said the truss itself didn't collapse, it was one of the end supports.

The photos in the article I linked to seem to show the support piers on both ends still in place. One end with the bridge section still resting on it, and the other standing free where the section pulled away from it.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:08 PM   #33
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
In point of fact I don't think there was an easy way for pedestrians to get on it either - it looks like the ends, including the ramps needed by people to access the bridge, weren't built yet.

Exactly. They were getting onto it by way of scaffolding around the support piers on either end.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:21 PM   #34
Stankeye
Critical Thinker
 
Stankeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The photos in the article I linked to seem to show the support piers on both ends still in place. One end with the bridge section still resting on it, and the other standing free where the section pulled away from it.
The support near the "river" water way looks like it is angled towards the water now. It looks like the soil may have gave way on that support and allowed the support column to lean and then the walkway to fall.
Stankeye is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:47 PM   #35
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I feel stupid for having missed that.

But I would say that the contruction firm is in some real deep kimchee,though...

They'll certainly be in the path of any lawsuits, regardless of culpability, but it's a bit early in the process to assume that they actually did anything wrong.

There's a lot about this that has the earmarks of design or materials failure, neither of which would necessarily be their fault.

ETA: It occurred to me that I might be using language which is more specific than you intended.

To me, "the construction firm" suggests the company doing the actual building of the structure. They may be, but are usually not the same as the firm which did the structural design, or the architectural design, or is managing the overall project. And they would rarely if ever be the ones supplying the building materials, although they might have some input into the selection of whoever does.

A similar pedestrian bridge failure happened back in 2000 at the Lowes Motor Speedway near Charlotte NC.



The bridge, which spanned the busy U.S. Highway 29, had been in place and was being used for around five years. The failure was sudden, and dumped people leaving the Speedway onto the road below. Over one hundred people were injured.

The bridge was built with prestressed double-tee members, a standard precast concrete product. The process involves putting steel cables in tension and deformed in place and then pouring concrete in the required structural shape. After the concrete is cured enough the pieces which were holding the cables in place in the proper configuration are removed through sleeves installed for that purpose. This leaves a small (~2"-3" dia.) hole in the middle of the span which needs to be filled.

For reasons which seem to remain somewhat unclear, the grout used to fill those holes contained calcium chloride, an additive which is okay under many applications but is a big time no-no in this one because of the near certainty of corrosion happening at exactly the wrong (as in "worst") point.

Over time, with exposure to weather, the cables which were the only thing providing the structural support for the double-tees corroded and failed.

I am describing this because it is an example of how the construction firm which built the pedestrian bridge had no real culpability for the bridge failure. They not only had nothing to do with the selection of the company which provided the precast, they also would have had no way of anticipating the failure which occurred.

This didn't keep them from being defendants in the ensuing lawsuits, of course.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:51 PM   #36
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,545
Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
The support near the "river" water way looks like it is angled towards the water now. It looks like the soil may have gave way on that support and allowed the support column to lean and then the walkway to fall.

I'm not seeing any clear sign that it is leaning, but if it is then it could have just as easily been pushed a little bit when the bridge section came loose and slide down its side.

The pier would not have been designed to resist a great deal of lateral pressure.

And it's a canal, not a river.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 03:57 PM   #37
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,159
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
MCM seem to have taken their website down. Unless it was a design-and-build job, or they didn't build what and how they were told to build by the structural engineers, I wouldn't have thought they were the prime culprit.
Apparenly FIGG Engineering designed the bridge, and MCM did the actual construction.
Of course there is third possibility:MCM was using questionable,cheap building materials and then billing as if they used higher priced material..a, sadly, common scam in the building trades.
One thing for sure: MCM and probably FIGG are lawyering up right now.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 04:15 PM   #38
Stankeye
Critical Thinker
 
Stankeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not seeing any clear sign that it is leaning, but if it is then it could have just as easily been pushed a little bit when the bridge section came loose and slide down its side.

The pier would not have been designed to resist a great deal of lateral pressure.

And it's a canal, not a river.
It definitely seems to be that end of the bridge that came off the support.

From this picture. It is difficult to determine how much engagement the bridge end had with the support column. Since they were using that column for the next section of bridge over the canal then by rights they would have placed this section of bridge inside of center-line of the column.


Maybe they did not get the alignment correct or possibly the concrete on the edge failed, but I have not seen any pictures with any concrete failure indication. Again if the support column shifted outward the bridge would fall, but as you say it is difficult to see any column shift, and I may have just seen an oblique angle that gave that impression.
Stankeye is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 04:31 PM   #39
Stankeye
Critical Thinker
 
Stankeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 261
I've rethought it. It is also possible that the bridge span failed somewhere which as it sagged would pull the canal end section off its column as that end of the bridge would not be fixed until they had set the canal section of the bridge.
Stankeye is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2018, 04:36 PM   #40
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
Wow. If that's true that's unbelievable.

Seems this bridge was being constructed using a new Accelerated Bridge Construction method. Now I don't want to jump to conclusions but...
I gotta wonder what impact this has on the teaching at the university, whose campus this bridge was designed to connect. They advocated this very method.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.