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Old 24th June 2019, 04:50 PM   #121
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Distressing that. The Christians are losing their "basic freedoms" to spew their hate filled message to the World.
No, this you should be pleased about.

My daughter is 20, and we live in a hugely religious part of a fairly irreligious country. I've watched a lot of her friends go from devout little baptist christian or muslim girls to absolute rebellion against religion.

In every case, the reason they've gone that way is because in the beautiful, sexually open 21st century, these kids go to school every day with easily identifiable gay, lesbian & trans of both types. The kids know for sure these aren't bad people, because bad people make themselves bloody obvious at school, often by bullying the trans/gay/... person.

They see these kids, day in, day out, having the same and more struggles as themselves, playing the same games, sharing dressing rooms, sharing attraction to boys, everything exactly the same, and then they go home and to church to hear them denounced as sinners.

Fail.

In fact, it's caused the exact opposite effect to intentions. I've been thinking as I type, and I can come up with eight kids in her friend group who have thrown away religion solely because of the religion's treatment of LGBT people.

Embrace these guys - as long as christians stick to backing pieces of santorum like Folau, they're shooting themselves in the foot. And if it's their money - who cares? Slightly older jet for the pastor.
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Old 24th June 2019, 11:55 PM   #122
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What I find funny is that
Quote:
I believe that sharing the Bible is an act of love and compassion.
This means insulting minority groups.
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Old 25th June 2019, 01:15 AM   #123
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His new page with the ACL was launched last night.

Was at one stage making $1000 a minute

Hit 1 million about 15 minutes ago

Currently sitting on 1.1 million

https://www.acl.org.au/donate_izzy
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 25th June 2019, 01:25 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
His new page with the ACL was launched last night.

Was at one stage making $1000 a minute

Hit 1 million about 15 minutes ago

Currently sitting on 1.1 million

https://www.acl.org.au/donate_izzy
Good.

If I were an Aussie, I'd start up a GoFundMe for the ARU to help them pay for their fees.

Betcha it would make 10 times whatever the little jerk gets.
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Old 25th June 2019, 01:32 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Good.

If I were an Aussie, I'd start up a GoFundMe for the ARU to help them pay for their fees.

Betcha it would make 10 times whatever the little jerk gets.
I doubt it would

The whole reason this has got out of hand is not him being an idiot just tweeting what the bible says.

It is the complete over reaction to it by everyone with the ability to write and get uber offended on behalf of other people.

If people just ignored the dude's spewing what the bible says and the RA sack the idiot in private it would have just disappeared to the back pages after a couple of days.

Quite a funny backlash though
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 25th June 2019, 01:42 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, this you should be pleased about.

My daughter is 20, and we live in a hugely religious part of a fairly irreligious country. I've watched a lot of her friends go from devout little baptist christian or muslim girls to absolute rebellion against religion.

In every case, the reason they've gone that way is because in the beautiful, sexually open 21st century, these kids go to school every day with easily identifiable gay, lesbian & trans of both types. The kids know for sure these aren't bad people, because bad people make themselves bloody obvious at school, often by bullying the trans/gay/... person.

They see these kids, day in, day out, having the same and more struggles as themselves, playing the same games, sharing dressing rooms, sharing attraction to boys, everything exactly the same, and then they go home and to church to hear them denounced as sinners.

Fail.

In fact, it's caused the exact opposite effect to intentions. I've been thinking as I type, and I can come up with eight kids in her friend group who have thrown away religion solely because of the religion's treatment of LGBT people.

Embrace these guys - as long as christians stick to backing pieces of santorum like Folau, they're shooting themselves in the foot. And if it's their money - who cares? Slightly older jet for the pastor.

A few years ago at my high school, we had a so-called 'theme day' for the teachers only. The theme was students with other ethnic backgrounds than Danish, i.e. primarily children of immigrant parents from Muslim countries. One speaker was the minister of equality issues, whose parents were immigrants.
But the most interesting speaker was a former student who had been rather fundamentalistic at one point but had softened somewhat before he graduated.
He told us that he used to be a 'hard core' Muslim, but then he had been together with another boy, i.e. he had discovered that he was gay.
He also told us that he was surprised by the attitude of other Muslims at the schools. In general, they had been very accepting of his own change of 'attitude'. And one 'headscarf girl', which is what we call the Muslim girls who dress like Muslims unlike the ones who are Muslims but dress like ordinary Danish girls, even told him that she thought that he was now much more who he really was, and that she liked him better this way.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:41 AM   #127
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 25th June 2019, 05:18 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Amateur!
Idolatry is difficult. Worshipping the SUSE Iguana is difficult.
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Old 25th June 2019, 05:22 AM   #129
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1.5 million about to be hit
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:19 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
1.5 million about to be hit
Can this figure be independently confirmed? Could be that someone is artificially inflating the figure and that the money will never be produced.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:28 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not at all.

A few years ago, former tennis great Margaret Court also publicly expressed similar views and made news briefly because of it. The difference is that she is retired from tennis (she is now a pastor) and didn't have a tennis association to go to war over. So the controversy was quickly over. If her tennis career in the 1960s hadn't been as stellar as it was, it is doubtful that she would have rated more than a byline in the press.

Missed it again, oh dear.

Actually the last time Margaret expressed her Christianity inspired, homophobic views was a year and a half ago, after Billie Jean King's suggestion, that a venue bearing her name be renamed.

Anyway your comment just re-enforces what I have been saying. If Court didn't have a history of being able to hit a tennis ball rather well, anything she said would not be in print.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:50 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Can this figure be independently confirmed? Could be that someone is artificially inflating the figure and that the money will never be produced.
I was wondering about that yesterday, so went through as if I was making a payment with fake details (I don't want those nutters knowing my email address)

I was trying to work out if it is actual donations or "pledges" to donate (Which could be a load of pants and people having a laugh)

Goes straight to online bank payment, so it is real and not inflated.

Unless the counter is fake. But I doubt it given the gofundme one was sitting at 750k before they riled everyone up
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 25th June 2019, 03:20 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, this you should be pleased about.

My daughter is 20, and we live in a hugely religious part of a fairly irreligious country. I've watched a lot of her friends go from devout little baptist christian or muslim girls to absolute rebellion against religion.

In every case, the reason they've gone that way is because in the beautiful, sexually open 21st century, these kids go to school every day with easily identifiable gay, lesbian & trans of both types. The kids know for sure these aren't bad people, because bad people make themselves bloody obvious at school, often by bullying the trans/gay/... person.

They see these kids, day in, day out, having the same and more struggles as themselves, playing the same games, sharing dressing rooms, sharing attraction to boys, everything exactly the same, and then they go home and to church to hear them denounced as sinners.

Fail.

In fact, it's caused the exact opposite effect to intentions. I've been thinking as I type, and I can come up with eight kids in her friend group who have thrown away religion solely because of the religion's treatment of LGBT people.

Embrace these guys - as long as christians stick to backing pieces of santorum like Folau, they're shooting themselves in the foot. And if it's their money - who cares? Slightly older jet for the pastor.

Pleased and even optimistic perhaps? Maybe so in spite of the pain being caused right now.

Folau's list is interesting. Eight sins that will damn you to hell, with homosexuality in number two spot, but commanding all the attention. Some of the others are obviously Biblically inspired also, like idolators, but some others, for instance drunks, not so. A couple of God's favourites like Noah and Lot were drunks and not shown the door. I would have liked to see rapists and wife beaters on the list, but God doesn't seem to have an issue with these folk.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:49 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Missed it again, oh dear.
If your point is that Falau's dismissal and subsequent GoFundMe activities have nothing to do with why he is still in the news (otherwise what are you disagreeing about?) then I am proud to have missed it.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:55 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would have liked to see rapists and wife beaters on the list, but God doesn't seem to have an issue with these folk.
Wife beating is a centuries old christian policy.

The bloke owns the woman after all, so has every right to beat and or rape her. Only idiot laws passed in the last 30 years have changed that opinion.

I couldn't even raise a laugh when, in the '80s, a group of old christian men protested because the courts were removing their god-given right to give the Mrs a whack if she gets lippy.

Rape & incest is what most the OT's about.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:29 AM   #136
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He has hit 2 million
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 28th June 2019, 02:45 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If your point is that Falau's dismissal and subsequent GoFundMe activities have nothing to do with why he is still in the news (otherwise what are you disagreeing about?) then I am proud to have missed it.

Not just trying to cloud the issue are you?

My point, and the thread title, is simple. The opinion of celebrities who can kick footballs or hit tennis balls are taken notice of by fans. This is regardless of the expertise the celebrity may have in these topics.

If Folau was just another guy down the street his extreme (and minority) views, would be dismissed as those, of just another Bible thumping wanker. To his fans however, Folau is a greater than real life person, he is seen as someone who is "in the know" about stuff, the average bloke doesn't have a handle on.
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:13 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not just trying to cloud the issue are you?



My point, and the thread title, is simple. The opinion of celebrities who can kick footballs or hit tennis balls are taken notice of by fans. This is regardless of the expertise the celebrity may have in these topics.



If Folau was just another guy down the street his extreme (and minority) views, would be dismissed as those, of just another Bible thumping wanker. To his fans however, Folau is a greater than real life person, he is seen as someone who is "in the know" about stuff, the average bloke doesn't have a handle on.
You ever think maybe it's the other way around? His fans like him because he's got the same handle on stuff as they do?

People aren't always looking for a sage to instruct them. Sometimes they're looking for a regular guy they can relate to. I wonder if this aspect of human nature is accounted for, in your philosophy.
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:31 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not just trying to cloud the issue are you?

My point, and the thread title, is simple. The opinion of celebrities who can kick footballs or hit tennis balls are taken notice of by fans. This is regardless of the expertise the celebrity may have in these topics.

If Folau was just another guy down the street his extreme (and minority) views, would be dismissed as those, of just another Bible thumping wanker. To his fans however, Folau is a greater than real life person, he is seen as someone who is "in the know" about stuff, the average bloke doesn't have a handle on.
The way you carry on, one would think that Israel Folau was some sort of sporting super star. The fact is that he doesn't even play Aussie rules! He is just a rugby player and nobody (outside of NSW) is interested in rugby.

It would take a lot more than just a judgmental religious tweet to keep him in the news day after day and to have entire threads in ISF dedicated solely to him. And that is what has happened.
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:30 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The way you carry on, one would think that Israel Folau was some sort of sporting super star. The fact is that he doesn't even play Aussie rules! He is just a rugby player and nobody (outside of NSW) is interested in rugby.

It would take a lot more than just a judgmental religious tweet to keep him in the news day after day and to have entire threads in ISF dedicated solely to him. And that is what has happened.
He did play Aussie rules for 2 years

They signed him up as a newbie on a 1.5 million a year contract. From rugby where he was on over a million

So yes he is, if not a super star, extremely rated and known.

Having said this I think the 2 million he has raised is just as much a backlash over the way over top "Folau is evil, we must crush him" reaction from the hand wringing offended on behalf of others, virtue signalling, SJWs, than people that care about his actual case.

And even started on his wife ffs

It got to the stage where ANZ who sponsor NZ netball made some stupid pointless statement over her.
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Old 28th June 2019, 07:36 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
<snip>

It would take a lot more than just a judgmental religious tweet to keep him in the news day after day

Just one tweet? From what I've seen in this thread there's been a lot more than that going on.

Quote:
and to have entire threads in ISF dedicated solely to him. And that is what has happened.

There's more than one thread "dedicated solely" to him? I've missed the others. Darn.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:50 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Just one tweet? From what I've seen in this thread there's been a lot more than that going on.

There's more than one thread "dedicated solely" to him? I've missed the others. Darn.
So you also believe that the GoFundMe debacle has nothing to do with his continued publicity?
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Old 29th June 2019, 04:10 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you also believe that the GoFundMe debacle has nothing to do with his continued publicity?
Forgive me for nicking your question from someone else

Personally I think his "gofundme debacle" just egged on a lot of people who were getting a bit sick of do gooders trying to silence people who just think "get over yourself"

Hence his GFM hitting 750k after 5 days and then his other hitting 2 million in 42 hours
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 29th June 2019, 07:25 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Forgive me for nicking your question from someone else



Personally I think his "gofundme debacle" just egged on a lot of people who were getting a bit sick of do gooders trying to silence people who just think "get over yourself"



Hence his GFM hitting 750k after 5 days and then his other hitting 2 million in 42 hours
You seem to saying those that hold bigoted views and opinions as he does are fed up of being told they hold bigoted views and opinions. Surely we should be wanting honesty in our public debates?
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Old 29th June 2019, 09:26 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to saying those that hold bigoted views and opinions as he does are fed up of being told they hold bigoted views and opinions. Surely we should be wanting honesty in our public debates?
There seems to be an increasing tendency to equate people who preach about the "wrath of God" as the same as those who try to incite murder and mayhem. It's as if there is no difference between a Christian (or Muslim or whatever) and a Nazi. That might explain the groundswell of support for Falau from the religious community.

Of course, how that affects his relationship with the rugby community is a separate matter.
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Old 29th June 2019, 10:41 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There seems to be an increasing tendency to equate people who preach about the "wrath of God" as the same as those who try to incite murder and mayhem. It's as if there is no difference between a Christian (or Muslim or whatever) and a Nazi. That might explain the groundswell of support for Falau from the religious community.



Of course, how that affects his relationship with the rugby community is a separate matter.
Not seeing why you quoted my post as you've not actually addressed anything in my post?
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:24 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You ever think maybe it's the other way around? His fans like him because he's got the same handle on stuff as they do?

People aren't always looking for a sage to instruct them. Sometimes they're looking for a regular guy they can relate to. I wonder if this aspect of human nature is accounted for, in your philosophy.
Somewhat far fetched I think.

Fans drawn to him because of his views rather than his abilities on the field? No I can't accomodate that scenario in my "philosophy .... sorry. You better try another angle I think.
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:27 PM   #148
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to saying those that hold bigoted views and opinions as he does are fed up of being told they hold bigoted views and opinions. Surely we should be wanting honesty in our public debates?
No I am not

I am saying that half of the people who gave money to him in the second one don't even agree with him or are even religious.

They are just sick of watching lynch mob like attacks on people who say anything that SJWs find offensive on behalf of others

This whole thing has been totally over blown.

They even went after his wife, who didn't even say anything

The bloke is just an idiot bible basher who just deserved to be ignored
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

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Old 29th June 2019, 02:27 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not seeing why you quoted my post as you've not actually addressed anything in my post?

It's just a psion thing I have noticed before. Reads something between the lines perhaps.
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Somewhat far fetched I think.



Fans drawn to him because of his views rather than his abilities on the field? No I can't accomodate that scenario in my "philosophy .... sorry. You better try another angle I think.
You proposed that fans are drawn to him in part because they think he sees things they don't.

I suggest that they might instead be drawn to him because they think he sees the same things they do. And I wondered if you had considered this possibility.
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:39 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No I am not

I am saying that half of the people who gave money to him in the second one don't even agree with him or are even religious.

They are just sick of watching lynch mob like attacks on people who say anything that SJWs find offensive on behalf of others

This whole thing has been totally over blown.

They even went after his wife, who didn't even say anything

The bloke is just an idiot bible basher who just deserved to be ignored

I agree absolutely. We should just be thankful for the good belly laugh he gives us. Sporting commentators could get a lot of mileage out of this ... "Oh, now Folau's got the ball! Let's hope no homosexuals on the other side distract his attention, so he can get a touchdown!"
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:42 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I agree absolutely. We should just be thankful for the good belly laugh he gives us. Sporting commentators could get a lot of mileage out of this ... "Oh, now Folau's got the ball! Let's hope no homosexuals on the other side distract his attention, so he can get a touchdown!"
And he will probably end up winning

The whole thing screams settling out of court. Him walking away with his contract money plus the fund money right into a million a year contract in France or Japan, who aren't as stupid enough to over hype stupid things people say
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:42 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You proposed that fans are drawn to him in part because they think he sees things they don't.

I suggest that they might instead be drawn to him because they think he sees the same things they do. And I wondered if you had considered this possibility.

Same stuff again .... oh boy.

So you think the fact he is good at playing the game is incidental to his popularity?
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:43 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not seeing why you quoted my post as you've not actually addressed anything in my post?
It addresses your post just fine. It just rejects your begged question, which is probably the source of your confusion.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:19 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And he will probably end up winning
No chance whatsoever.

He's just playing the perfect sore loser - he knows he can't win, but will try to bankrupt the ARU out of spite.

Small-minded little jerk. In other words, a typical christian crybaby.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
... in France or Japan, who aren't as stupid enough to over hype stupid things people say
Don't kid yourself on that score - both of those countries have exactly the same rules on what players can and can't say on social media.

And don't lose sight of the fact that that is the entire problem - he was told not to do something on a final warning, then went and did it. Anyone in that position is rightly sacked.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a load of league boofhead fans have given money just to try to get at rugby.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No chance whatsoever.

He's just playing the perfect sore loser - he knows he can't win, but will try to bankrupt the ARU out of spite.

Small-minded little jerk. In other words, a typical christian crybaby.



Don't kid yourself on that score - both of those countries have exactly the same rules on what players can and can't say on social media.

And don't lose sight of the fact that that is the entire problem - he was told not to do something on a final warning, then went and did it. Anyone in that position is rightly sacked.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a load of league boofhead fans have given money just to try to get at rugby.
By winning I mean RA caving

There is only a certain amount of time they can handle the whole game being dragged through the mud.

And the vast majority of employment cases in Aus are settled out of court.

They only have themselves to blame though.

What sort of dumb ***** say on national TV the bloke is going to be sacked unless he has an extraordinary excuse and get the national coach to say he will never pick him again, before there was even an official RA tribunal.

That is them braking his player contract, which states all players are entitled to a tribunal before any disciplinary action is decided.

And France or Japan would grab him in a second

They have a history of ignoring a lot of things.

And at the end of the day an internet post is not exactly murder
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:33 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No I am not

I am saying that half of the people who gave money to him in the second one don't even agree with him or are even religious.

They are just sick of watching lynch mob like attacks on people who say anything that SJWs find offensive on behalf of others

This whole thing has been totally over blown.

They even went after his wife, who didn't even say anything

The bloke is just an idiot bible basher who just deserved to be ignored
You make up a lot of stuff, but this takes the cake. Half the people who gave him money through the Christian lobby group don’t agree with him or aren’t religious? Prove it. You won’t even try.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:37 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You make up a lot of stuff, but this takes the cake. Half the people who gave him money through the Christian lobby group don’t agree with him or aren’t religious? Prove it. You won’t even try.
Well I can't can I

It is just my opinion

The same way you can't prove they all agree with his post and are religious

But feel free to show me they are
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 29th June 2019, 10:17 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
By winning I mean RA caving
I can't see why they would - the law is clearly on their side.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And the vast majority of employment cases in Aus are settled out of court.
So they are in NZ, but clear cases don't fold.
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Old 29th June 2019, 10:52 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I can't see why they would - the law is clearly on their side.



So they are in NZ, but clear cases don't fold.
Obviously

I just don't think this is as clear a case or the grief that is going to come from it being drawn out is going to mean it gets to court

I may be proven wrong

Frankly I don't care as I think the bloke is an idiot and the RA have acted stupidly, so whoever wins is no skin off my nose
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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