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Old 20th June 2019, 11:30 AM   #361
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think you misspelled "lazy".

A lazy Trump, of course, is a very good thing. If he acted upon everything he claims and writes, we'd all be dead by now.
Sure, I'll go along with that.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:31 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We know what happened the last time Iran shot down a drone. While we can never be truly certain of what the future may hold, we literally do have a precedent to work from.
There's serious doubt that the drone in 2011 was "shot down" at all.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:34 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Iran is already at war with us.
...huh?
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:42 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd rather Japan and South Korea have nukes than Iran.
This year.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:37 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's times like this that I really hate that Donald Trump is president.

Any other president I would trust to talk with his advisors and if they told him, "No, Mr. President. That wouldn't be a good idea." he would pay attention. With Trump, it would just goad him into trying to prove he was smarter than they were.

I don't know what to do in situations like this. I don't have spy agencies, and military advisors, and diplomats all getting in line to tell me all the important information to make life or death decisions. The problem is, neither does he, for all practical purposes, because he'll go off and do whatever pops into his fuzzy little head.

The idea that that man can make decisions that result in dead people, perhaps in large numbers, really scares me. But at least he borrowed a whole bunch of money delivered a tax cut.
I think Max Boot was right on when said Trump has destroyed American Creditbility, and of course Russia, Iran, and North Korea are going to take advantage of it.
Elected some totally ignorant of foreign affairs who believes his "gut instincts" are more reliable then any number of experts was really smart.
And I find it really disturbing that one person here who is smart enough to know better defends every action that Dear Leader says simply because he has a "R" after his name.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:40 PM   #366
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On the other hand, the "Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend" approach toward Iran some people here have I find reprehensible. Just because somebody gets on Trump's wrong aide does not make them automatically worthy of support. That is where I get off the anti Trump train:when it leads you into supporting people who are probably just as bad.
And the "Israel is behind it" theory is pure crap.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:48 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We're talking about a guy who wondered what good nuclear weapons were if we didn't use them. Whose closest advisors have been itching for a war with Iran for years.

He's putting together an awfully big stick. Do you really believe he has the self-restraint not to use it?
Problem is what would it accomplish?
It's not nearly big enough to enforce "regime change " in Iran.
It's not even big enough to take over and dismantle Iran Nuclear Program.
I have no love of the Iranian regime whatsoever, but I don't see any large scale military action as solving the problem, unless you go all the way with a full scale invasion of Iran, which would take more men then we used in both Gulf wars.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:51 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Iran is actually interested in getting nukes.

It isn't. Nukes are haram the leader has ruled. They take that stuff seriously.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:58 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think Max Boot was right on when said Trump has destroyed American Creditbility, and of course Russia, Iran, and North Korea are going to take advantage of it.
Elected some totally ignorant of foreign affairs who believes his "gut instincts" are more reliable then any number of experts was really smart.
And I find it really disturbing that one person here who is smart enough to know better defends every action that Dear Leader says simply because he has a "R" after his name.
Tbf, that same person seems to be doing it mainly for the lolz.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:05 PM   #370
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Zarif: Iran to Complain to UN to Prove Violation of Its Airspace by US Spy Drone

That's the way to go. Maybe this time even the UK poodle will stop backing the aggressor.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...huh?
What are you questioning? The implication that Iran is the instigator, not the US ("we are already at war with Iran" being the other way to phrase it)?

Or the claim that Iran is actively pursuing a program of armed conflict against the US, its allies, and its partners in the region? I think their support of Hezbollah and ISIS alone qualifies them as being "at war."

---

Now I'm imagining it's the other half of your name, and we can put the two together to get "Belzhuh"

Last edited by theprestige; 20th June 2019 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:40 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd rather Japan and South Korea have nukes than Iran. But if those nations having nukes freaks you out so much... Are you in favor of a more aggressive approach to preventing Iran from having nukes? Because unlike Japan and South Korea, Iran is actually interested in getting nukes.
Thank you for your opinion. Not sure why I must favor a "more aggressive" approach to Iran, in order to criticize the President's ignorance?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You won't support robust measures to prevent North Korea from having nukes. You won't support robust measures to prevent Iran from getting nukes. But the idea that Japan might want their own deterrent in a world where North Korea has nukes, is giving you blasphemy tourette's.
I have absolutely no idea where you are getting this from.

Last edited by carlitos; 20th June 2019 at 01:45 PM. Reason: gramar / grammer / gramer
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:45 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Jesus, there is nothing Trump says you will not defend.
Wrong. When Trump said the USS Ford should go with steam catapults, I excoriated him mercilessly. It was an ignorant and stupid thing to say, and he should have just shut up and let the experts work.

He also says a lot of other stuff that is not, or at least doesn't seem to be, particularly defensible.

But I think the big problem for you here is that Trump didn't actually say it. Joe Scarborough made a secondhand, unsourced, unverified claim that he said it. You're not only taking Scarborough at his word, but you're assuming that what was said must have been meant the way you imagine.

I'm not so much defending anything Trump has actually said, because honestly who the **** knows what he actually said - if anything. I'm more defending the principle that it can be an okay thing to say, and is probably a good question to raise more often anyway.

I'm less concerned with "OMG Trump doesn't understand why we can't use nuclear weapons!" and more concerned with the knee-jerk freakout otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people seem to have any time the subject comes up.

I think it's entirely plausible that Trump never gave much thought to nuclear warfare doctrine, and just barged right into the heart of the subject with a naive "so why can't we use them?" question. But to me, that's vastly preferable to the naive "don't even ask" attitude that most people seem to have.

My point isn't that it's okay for Trump to ask (though I think that's true as well). My point is that it's very much not okay that nobody else is ever asking or answering that question. I mean, I'm sure there's military theorists and strategists who do in fact give it some serious, rational thought. I question the wisdom of the general public that seems unwilling to do the same.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:50 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem is what would it accomplish?
It's not nearly big enough to enforce "regime change " in Iran.
It's not even big enough to take over and dismantle Iran Nuclear Program.
I have no love of the Iranian regime whatsoever, but I don't see any large scale military action as solving the problem, unless you go all the way with a full scale invasion of Iran, which would take more men then we used in both Gulf wars.
It depends what problem you're trying to solve.

Smashing Iran's ability to develop nuclear weapons can probably be done without a single boot on the ground.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:52 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
It isn't. Nukes are haram the leader has ruled. They take that stuff seriously.
I'm pretty sure Islam has a term of art for disobeying the law in the service of the law. Something about it being a halal stratagem in war.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:55 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure Islam has a term of art for disobeying the law in the service of the law. Something about it being a halal stratagem in war.

I'm pretty sure you've read too much Robert Spencer and associates. They would be lying to their own people.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:57 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Thank you for your opinion. Not sure why I must favor a "more aggressive" approach to Iran, in order to criticize the President's ignorance?



I have absolutely no idea where you are getting this from.
My apologies. I read you as not just criticizing the president's ignorance, but also recoiling vehemently from the idea of Japan and South Korea pursuing nuclear weapons of their own. If that idea isn't actually a huge problem for you, then it makes more sense that Iran pursuing nuclear weapons might also not be a huge problem for you.

ETA: It would also still make sense if Iran pursuing nukes is a huge problem for you.

Last edited by theprestige; 20th June 2019 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 01:59 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think their support of Hezbollah and ISIS alone qualifies them as being "at war."

Wait, what? Iran supports ISIS? Mate, you are in loony territory here. If you really believe this, go do some research. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:59 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are you questioning? The implication that Iran is the instigator, not the US ("we are already at war with Iran" being the other way to phrase it)?

Or the claim that Iran is actively pursuing a program of armed conflict against the US, its allies, and its partners in the region? I think their support of Hezbollah and ISIS alone qualifies them as being "at war."
I'm questioning the exact phrase I quoted, as you well know.

The US and Iran are not at war anymore than the US and Russia were at war during the 50s-80s.
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:05 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm questioning the exact phrase I quoted, as you well know.

The US and Iran are not at war anymore than the US and Russia were at war during the 50s-80s.
He says that because he wants to put blame on Iran regardless of actual state of affairs. Aggressor blaming victim for his aggression is long, time-honored tradition.
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Old 20th June 2019, 09:30 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm questioning the exact phrase I quoted, as you well know.



The US and Iran are not at war anymore than the US and Russia were at war during the 50s-80s.
Sure. I'll go along with that.

ETA: I don't want to be coy about this. The way you phrased your assessment, I can agree with it and still say Iran is at war. Just to be clear.

Last edited by theprestige; 20th June 2019 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 09:45 PM   #382
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I doubt any scholar of International Law would consider it an act of war to shoot down a surveillance drone, international waters of not.
But Washington might send Teheran the bill, if they are so certain they are in the right.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:35 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I doubt any scholar of International Law would consider it an act of war to shoot down a surveillance drone, international waters of not.
But Washington might send Teheran the bill, if they are so certain they are in the right.
Yes I expect Washington to treat Iran shooting down a military drone with no loss of life in international / iranian airspace with the same seriousness it treated the deliberate shooting down of an Iranian civilian airliner in Iranian airspace by the US navy with the loss of hundreds of lives. Perhaps they will award the officer who ordered the attack a medal?

Iran should pay compensation; for lives lost at the same rate as Washington did.
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Old 21st June 2019, 01:59 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure. I'll go along with that.

ETA: I don't want to be coy about this. The way you phrased your assessment, I can agree with it and still say Iran is at war. Just to be clear.
So you can agree that they're not at war and still say they are?

Why won't you engage further on this issue? Why did you even say it?
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Old 21st June 2019, 02:13 AM   #385
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President Donald Trump approved retaliatory military strikes against Iran on Thursday before changing his mind, US media report.

The New York Times, citing senior White House officials, says strikes were planned against a "handful" of targets.

They say the operation was allegedly under way "in its early stages" when Mr Trump stood the US military down. The White House has so far made no comment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48714414
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Old 21st June 2019, 05:07 PM   #386
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Trump Tweeted


President Obama made a desperate and terrible deal with Iran - Gave them 150 Billion Dollars plus I.8 Billion Dollars in CASH! Iran was in big trouble and he bailed them out. Gave them a free path to Nuclear Weapons, and SOON. Instead of saying thank you, Iran yelled.....

....Death to America. I terminated deal, which was not even ratified by Congress, and imposed strong sanctions. They are a much weakened nation today than at the beginning of my Presidency, when they were causing major problems throughout the Middle East. Now they are Bust!....

....On Monday they shot down an unmanned drone flying in International Waters. We were cocked & loaded to retaliate last night on 3 different sights when I asked, how many will die. 150 people, sir, was the answer from a General. 10 minutes before the strike I stopped it, not....

...proportionate to shooting down an unmanned drone. I am in no hurry, our Military is rebuilt, new, and ready to go, by far the best in the world. Sanctions are biting & more added last night. Iran can NEVER have Nuclear Weapons, not against the USA, and not against the WORLD!
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Old 21st June 2019, 05:28 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So you can agree that they're not at war and still say they are?

Why won't you engage further on this issue? Why did you even say it?
Sorry, I see I made things less clear.

You said:

"The US and Iran are not at war anymore than the US and Russia were at war during the 50s-80s."

Since I would say that the US and Russia were at war during the 50s-80s, I have no problem agreeing that the US and Iran are in a similar relationship today.

The point is that the Bolton's and Pompeo's stance on Iran isn't emerging from a contextless vacuum. They're not trying to start a fight where none existed before. Iran is a state sponsor of terror. It is actively engaged in a program of violent aggression against the US and its allies. The conflict Bolton and Pompeo are supposedly obliged to avoid is already in progress.

I think "war" is the best shorthand for accurately describing the current situation.
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Old 21st June 2019, 05:41 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweeted


President Obama made a desperate and terrible deal with Iran - Gave them 150 Billion Dollars plus I.8 Billion Dollars in CASH! Iran was in big trouble and he bailed them out. Gave them a free path to Nuclear Weapons, and SOON. Instead of saying thank you, Iran yelled.....

....Death to America. I terminated deal, which was not even ratified by Congress, and imposed strong sanctions. They are a much weakened nation today than at the beginning of my Presidency, when they were causing major problems throughout the Middle East. Now they are Bust!....

....On Monday they shot down an unmanned drone flying in International Waters. We were cocked & loaded to retaliate last night on 3 different sights when I asked, how many will die. 150 people, sir, was the answer from a General. 10 minutes before the strike I stopped it, not....

...proportionate to shooting down an unmanned drone. I am in no hurry, our Military is rebuilt, new, and ready to go, by far the best in the world. Sanctions are biting & more added last night. Iran can NEVER have Nuclear Weapons, not against the USA, and not against the WORLD!
Or the dark art of creating entirely unnecessary crises, when the world should focus so much on the environment and climate change ...
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Old 22nd June 2019, 01:01 AM   #389
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My opinion of Trump has just gone up. I think he was right, killing 'innocent' Iranians is a disproportionate response to destroying US equipment.

I am surprised that the US military did not come up with a more proportionate response, clearly their intention is escalation.

Since the US holds Iranian assets they could just deduct the cost of a drone (though if they follow the practice of my insurance company they should only deduct the cost of a used drone, not a brand new model).
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:11 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
My opinion of Trump has just gone up. I think he was right, killing 'innocent' Iranians is a disproportionate response to destroying US equipment.

I am surprised that the US military did not come up with a more proportionate response, clearly their intention is escalation.

Since the US holds Iranian assets they could just deduct the cost of a drone (though if they follow the practice of my insurance company they should only deduct the cost of a used drone, not a brand new model).
I agree, if (and sadly I have to say "if" knowing he often lies) his account is accurate then yes he made a good call.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:11 AM   #391
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We don't know what response the US military came up with or what information they gave to trump.
If he was doinghis job right he would have asked for a range of responses and if he had ordered the attack to go ahead he should have been with the generals in the Situation Room being kept fully up to date with what was happening.

I think he realised attacking Iran isn't the same as threatening them on Twitter and he crapped his pants.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:17 AM   #392
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The Pentagon doesn't make a plan - it makes several.
Knowing Trump's attention span, they probably only showed him the most radical, precisely in the expectation that he won't commit.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:32 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am not a military expert, but Israel could have a submarine with combat divers on board able to do this within reach. I am not sure why they would require Saudi co-operation. A 'civilian' merchant vessel in the Arabian Sea could easily act as a tender.
With practically the entire planet in near open blood lust directed at the Zionist Entity, said entity decides to take the absurdly dangerous risk of committing a complex false flag operation which, if completely successful and undetected, would probably yield little to no benefit... while even the slightest exposure would result in an existential disaster. I have my doubts.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:22 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
My opinion of Trump has just gone up. I think he was right, killing 'innocent' Iranians is a disproportionate response to destroying US equipment.
I won't give him benefit of doubt. I think he said that because it was leaked that he ordered strikes and then changed mind, so he presented it in best possible light. True reason for change is almost certainly different.

In general, most likely scenario of USA - Iran war will be that USA will blow up some random targets (exactly like it was about to happen for real now), then announce "mission accomplished, yay!" and get out trumpeting around their "victory". That would be relatively harmless (except taking down already low reputation of USA by another notch, of course).

Actual invasion would be very ugly, but possible to do if USA insisted on it (very unlikely considering that no one except warmongering loonies want it). Occupation would be complete catastrophe. If you thought Iraq is bad, well. Iran would be waaay worse.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:53 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
With practically the entire planet in near open blood lust directed at the Zionist Entity, said entity decides to take the absurdly dangerous risk of committing a complex false flag operation which, if completely successful and undetected, would probably yield little to no benefit... while even the slightest exposure would result in an existential disaster. I have my doubts.
It was just classic anti Semitic conspiracy fear-mongering. Pretty common in today’s UK.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:03 AM   #396
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Kim Dotcom has "leaked" the conversation:



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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:36 AM   #397
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The same Iran that couldn’t sink a wooden, non-firing replica of an aircraft carrier a couple years back?
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:38 AM   #398
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It was probably something more like this:

Quote:
Pompeo: "Sir, we are ready to strike Iran!"

Bolton: "Ohboy... ohboy... ohboy this is going to be so goood!"

Trump: "Guys, can't you see I am on the phone?"
Trump: "Sorry about that... yeah they want to bomb Iran. They shot down a toy plane or whatever..."

Phone (angry): "[unintelligible]"

Trump: "Vlad says no."
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:39 AM   #399
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Earthborn's version is more plausible
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:43 AM   #400
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The US while not having a Secretary of Defense almost going to war over an unpiloted plane...

When Nena in the 80s sang about a future in which "Kriegsminister gibt’s nicht mehr und auch keine Düsenflieger." I don't think this is quite what she had in mind...
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