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Old 17th June 2019, 05:02 AM   #201
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Were you wondering if the boat next to the tanker was in fact an Iranian boat?

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/is-the-b.../29999309.html

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Old 17th June 2019, 05:15 AM   #202
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not saying it wasn't ...

but this is no evidence whatsoever.
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Old 17th June 2019, 05:37 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
not saying it wasn't ...

but this is no evidence whatsoever.
Of course it's evidence. It's not proof, but it's absolutely evidence.
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Old 17th June 2019, 06:07 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course it's evidence. It's not proof, but it's absolutely evidence.
Unless you can show that only the Iranian navy uses these boats, it's not.
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Old 17th June 2019, 06:10 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Unless you can show that only the Iranian navy uses these boats, it's not.
That's what makes it not proof. But that doesn't make it not evidence.
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Old 17th June 2019, 07:34 AM   #206
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Can we agree that if it was a Russian built anti-ship missile, it would have done far more damage than we see in the photos.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:01 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Unless you can show that only the Iranian navy uses these boats, it's not.
So who else uses those speed boats beside Iran? Remember, we can't prove negative -nobody else uses, but one can prove positive - somebody beside Iran uses them.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:02 AM   #208
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Plot twist: It was Norway.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:04 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't withstand even elementary scrutiny. Why would Trump go to war over something where nobody got killed and the property damage wasn't even to US property, when he hasn't gone to war over revelations that Iran killed about 600 US service members in Iraq?
Because of pressure from idiots in Congress and in his cabinet?

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...pping-warrants

Originally Posted by Senator Cotton (R)
“These unprovoked attacks on commercial shipping warrant a retaliatory military strike,” Cotton said.

Brennan asked whether he was comparing the situation now to the “Tanker War” in the 1980s.

“We can make a military reac— response in a time and in a manner of our choosing. But, yes,” Cotton repeated, “unprovoked attacks on commercial shipping warrant a retaliatory military strike against the Islamic Republic of Iran.”

Asked whether he believed the administration could act without seeking congressional approval first, Cotton replied, “yes.”
Originally Posted by CNSNews
On the same program, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the U.S. was “considering a full range of options” in response to recent events, adding that the administration was confident that it could “take a set of actions that can restore deterrence – which is our mission set.”

Asked whether that full range of options includes a military response, Pompeo replied, “Of course.”
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:04 AM   #210
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Oil tankers on fire off the shoulder of Iran. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Straights of Hormuz. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:05 AM   #211
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Apropos of nothing...

The title of this thread always reminds me of the C-beams monologue from Blade Runner.

Quote:
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
(eta)
re: Post just before mine.
Now that is a weird ****** coincidence...
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:06 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Oil tankers on fire off the shoulder of Iran. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Straights of Hormuz. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Dude, we did that on page 1.

Theprestige did it, then I wanted to do it and got ninja'd, then someone else.

Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Apropos of nothing...

The title of this thread always reminds me of the C-beams monologue from Blade Runner.



(eta)
re: Post just before mine.
Now that is a weird ****** coincidence...
Ok yeah we get it!!
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:10 AM   #213
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I don't think that I've ever seen Blade Runner, and thanks for the info. I did not at all understand what the "shoulder" references were about.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:12 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I don't think that I've ever seen Blade Runner
You should. Like it or hate it (and I do like the sequel but I'm still iffy on the original) it's a classic of the genre.
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Old 17th June 2019, 09:19 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Because of pressure from idiots in Congress and in his cabinet?

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...pping-warrants
Cotton is one senator. As for Pompeo, regardless of whether they intend to do a military strike, it would be stupid to say that a military option wasn't even being considered. You don't telegraph that sort of information to the enemy while you're still in the process of deciding. Pompeo's public statements do not constitute pressure to go to war, and they do not indicate what his private recommendations to Trump might be. And that is as it should be.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:05 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Iran was showing off it's Limpet Mines at a weapons fair in 2015

You can see one being displayed at the fair on this page. It's about 60% of the way down the page.
Well hello there. Curious.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:07 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Pointing out the glaring inconsistencies in the America version of events/evidence doesn't make it a conspiracy theory.
Yeah but you weren't pointing out any "glaring inconsistencies", you were just asking weird questions like "why is the shadow so dark" and "why didn't they escape in the lifeboat if they were so scared (which it evidently turns out they did)".
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:09 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cotton is one senator. As for Pompeo, regardless of whether they intend to do a military strike, it would be stupid to say that a military option wasn't even being considered. You don't telegraph that sort of information to the enemy while you're still in the process of deciding. Pompeo's public statements do not constitute pressure to go to war, and they do not indicate what his private recommendations to Trump might be. And that is as it should be.
You are free to attempt to minimize this influence, as you have here.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:25 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Can we agree that if it was a Russian built anti-ship missile, it would have done far more damage than we see in the photos.
Why would we agree?
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:29 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Were you wondering if the boat next to the tanker was in fact an Iranian boat?

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/is-the-b.../29999309.html

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/6...922/JpVG5h.jpg
How stealthy are those boats? Or how blind is a tanker? Would it be possible to attach a limpet mine to a moving tanker without being seen?
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:30 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Iran was showing off it's Limpet Mines at a weapons fair in 2015

You can see one being displayed at the fair on this page. It's about 60% of the way down the page.
So that's why its shadow looks like a mouse cursor!
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:30 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Were you wondering if the boat next to the tanker was in fact an Iranian boat?

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/is-the-b.../29999309.html

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/6...922/JpVG5h.jpg
The features pointed out on the web link are fairly standard on fast boats of that size. A so called 'Cathedral' or 'dory' hull form and a centre console is seen on masses of fast planing boats under about 50 ft.

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Old 17th June 2019, 10:45 AM   #223
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I think tankers are considerably blind, but not so much so that they wouldn't be able to spot one of those boats coming alongside and take note of it. You may not be able to focus on any one boat if there's multiple of them zipping around you I suppose. And I don't think from the ship's normal watch positions they'd be able to see anything the boat was doing while adjacent to the hull, like affixing an object. Also, if Iran's navy also serves typical "coast guard" functions, and if the ships were lately sailing out of an Iranian port, small military boats like these operating in close proximity or even coming alongside temporarily may be a commonplace thing and not worthy of any particular attention; the boats are certainly too small and light to pose a collision risk and it's not like the huge tanker could take evasive action even if they were, and the crew is certainly aware of that.

But this particular class of boat was simply the one seen doing something at the ship's hull hours after it had been abandoned. Even assuming they were removing a mine, it's not necessarily the case that the mine was first attached by the same kind of boat. If the mine was attached while the boat was in another country's port entirely, I think it's more than likely a known Iranian military boat wouldn't have been there.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #224
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A small boat like that would be very difficult to see from the bridge of a tanker in the dark and not that easy in daylight if it came up from astern and stayed close in to the track of the ship and hugged the hull.
You don't keep much of a lookout astern.
Without a radar reflector high on the mast the boat would be very difficult to pick up out of the surface clutter on the radar at close range.
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:03 AM   #225
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Last two ports were Qatar and SA.

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels...MMSI-371880000
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:07 AM   #226
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The crew of a tanker might not see squat about what is happening on the hull, but the ship's radar would pick up anything bigger than a zodiac.
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:24 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would we agree?
Any type of warhead, like an anti ship missile (Similar to an Exocet), or a wire-guided, or laser guided anti tank rocket (Similar to a TOW) would have obliterated the side of that ship.
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:42 AM   #228
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Statement today by the head of the Iranian Armed Forces:

Originally Posted by FARS News
"The US and its allies are projecting the blame on Iran for the recent incidents in the Persian Gulf (the attacks against the oil tankers in Fujairah and Sea of Oman) to raise allegations against Iran while if the Islamic Republic of Iran intends to stop exports of oil from the Persian Gulf, it will do that in full, and will announce it publically and clearly given the country and its Armed Forces' power and will not embark on deceitful and stealth acts like the terrorist and cheater US and its regional and international extensions which foment insecurity in the world," General Baqeri said on Monday.

He added that the Iranian Armed Forces are at present monitoring the enemies' moves wisely, precisely and round the clock and will give a crushing and open response to any enemy move and in a very broad region.

General Baqeri said Iran is now facing a new Saddam named Trump who resorts to complicated and dangerous methods, schemes and economic and psychological warfare against Tehran in a bid to pressure Tehran and make it believe that it has the only two options of war or negotiations that would lead to Iran's surrendering.

"Therefore, the Islamic Republic has opted for resistance and revolutionary and active defense and will stand for it strongly," he underscored.

Iran had also earlier strongly denied any involvement in the attacks. [...]
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Old 17th June 2019, 12:09 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Any type of warhead, like an anti ship missile (Similar to an Exocet), or a wire-guided, or laser guided anti tank rocket (Similar to a TOW) would have obliterated the side of that ship.
Uh, no.

An Exocet missile is 670 kg, and has a 165 kg warhead. A TOW missile is only about 22 kg, with a 6 kg warhead. That's almost a factor of 30 difference in size. These are not even remotely comparable. An Exocet would indeed have done far more extensive damage than was observed, since it is designed to sink large ships. But a TOW missile is intended for far smaller targets than ships. It doesn't need to punch a large hole in its target, a relatively small hole will suffice.

I'm not trying to argue that such a missile was used here, but smaller missiles like a TOW would not in fact have "obliterated the side of that ship".
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Old 17th June 2019, 12:15 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Any type of warhead, like an anti ship missile (Similar to an Exocet), or a wire-guided, or laser guided anti tank rocket (Similar to a TOW) would have obliterated the side of that ship.
Not necessarily,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Skua
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Old 17th June 2019, 02:58 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The crew of a tanker might not see squat about what is happening on the hull, but the ship's radar would pick up anything bigger than a zodiac.
No it wouldn't, inside a couple of miles it wouldn't pick up a small boat against the sea clutter unless the boat was using a radar reflector high up somewhere.
A fibreglass boat with a mainly fibreglass centre console like the patrol boats being used wouldn't show at all on a commercial navigation radar.

Military search radars are a different kettle of fish. They use techniques to reject sea clutter and give a better picture at close range but they aren't used for navigation, a separate commercial style navigation radar is also fitted to a warship.

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Old 17th June 2019, 03:00 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Any type of warhead, like an anti ship missile (Similar to an Exocet), or a wire-guided, or laser guided anti tank rocket (Similar to a TOW) would have obliterated the side of that ship.
What makes you say that?
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #233
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Sheffield wasn't sunk by the warhead of the Exocet that hit it but by fires caused by the rocket motors as it plowed through the ship and the unlucky chance that it hit the main firemain as it went through . If the warhead had exploded then the damage would have been far worse. Atlantic Conveyor was hit by an exocet and the warhead did explode, she sank due to flooding through the hole in the hull.
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:20 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No it wouldn't, inside a couple of miles it wouldn't pick up a small boat against the sea clutter unless the boat was using a radar reflector high up somewhere.
A fibreglass boat with a mainly fibreglass centre console like the patrol boats being used wouldn't show at all on a commercial navigation radar.
Indeed; this is precisely why pleasure craft in places where commercial traffic exists are so strongly encouraged to use radar-reflectors especially made for that purpose, as well as to keep AIS turned on at all times if they have it. Commercial radars probably technically could detect small craft, but in practice they're going to be squelched out along with the sea return to reduce clutter, because tanker ships don't need to look out for and avoid small craft.
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #235
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This video from Cowes week a few years ago shows exactly why a Tanker doesn't usually worry about small craft, and this is just a little coastal tanker, a few thousand tons.

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Old 17th June 2019, 04:13 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Uh, no.

An Exocet missile is 670 kg, and has a 165 kg warhead. A TOW missile is only about 22 kg, with a 6 kg warhead. That's almost a factor of 30 difference in size. These are not even remotely comparable. An Exocet would indeed have done far more extensive damage than was observed, since it is designed to sink large ships. But a TOW missile is intended for far smaller targets than ships. It doesn't need to punch a large hole in its target, a relatively small hole will suffice.

I'm not trying to argue that such a missile was used here, but smaller missiles like a TOW would not in fact have "obliterated the side of that ship".
A few points needed here:

1.) Most warships built after WW II don't have much in the way of armor. The hulls are thick enough to make sure they are structurally sound under rough conditions. Where there is armor on them it is usually around the magazines.

2.) Although not armored, tankers have thick hulls. That is required for them to stay structurally sound because of their size.

3.) An example of where the difference between military ships hulls and tankers showed up in the Iran-Iraq war. At one point Iran was attacking tankers. The US responded by having them re-flagged as American ships and providing escorts. Iran then turned to mining the straight with large old fashioned floating naval mines. One tanker hit a mine on the way in and suffered a lot of damage but was able to continue to port and take on oil. The US warships escorting it switched from leading the tankers to following them since they would not survive a mine explosion.

4.) Plenty of ships have survived hits from Exocets. They are on the small side for modern anti-ship missiles but a lot larger than a TOW. They pack a lot less punch then your typical floating naval mine like those used in the Iran-Iraq war. Where they hit does make a huge difference. How it compares to anti-tank warheads in design is something I don't know much about.

5.) There are a lot of versions of the TOW missile out there but they would have a hard time taking down anything that should be called a ship. However they all have one or more shaped charges designed just for the purpose of putting holes in armor plate. Later versions used two downward facing shape charges and would not be great for a hull attack on anything other than a land vehicle. Comparing the weight of en Exocet warhead to a TOW is going to be a bit misleading unless the details of the warhead are known.

6.) Typical Shaped charges are designed to burn a hole through armor. The holes are not necessarily going to be very large. In the case of a TOW, the liner of the charge is copper. It usually leaves residue in the hole it burns from the plasma jet formed by the charge. Not sure if the Exocet used the same type of liner although it probably does. Tin can also work. Glass is often used for non-armor penetrating charges.
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Old 17th June 2019, 04:19 PM   #237
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Modern tankers have a double hull, product tankers certainly do.
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Old 17th June 2019, 04:33 PM   #238
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Lots more photos now of the evidence, including in color. Thank you, Daily Mail.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kers-Gulf.html
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Old 17th June 2019, 04:43 PM   #239
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As much as I hate Trump and think war with Iran is a horrible idea, I find some of the conspiracy mongering in this thread by alleged rational thinkers to be pretty bad.
Point is who is attacking the tankers in the gulf, and why?
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Old 17th June 2019, 04:50 PM   #240
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You also have the question the Iranian Government control over the Revolutionary Guards is often shaky; something like the Civilian Japanese Government's relatations with the Japanese Army in the 1930's. The Japanese Army did what it damn well wanted despite what the government wanted.
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