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Old 18th June 2019, 12:46 PM   #281
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
People leaning towards Libertarianism should understand the importance of being perceived as a reliable partner in negotiations.
Guess what: Obama isn't a reliable partner in negotiations. I'm not sure why that surprises you.
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Old 18th June 2019, 01:38 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
People leaning towards Libertarianism should understand the importance of being perceived as a reliable partner in negotiations.
Oh my. Where to begin?

Reliable like when Obama ****** Qaddafi as a reward for his agreement? Reliable like when Obama reneged on a previous administration's promise to underwrite Ukrainian national security?

Reliability. The US has very clear, well-established, and easily observed processes for ensuring the reliable continuation of policy: Laws, and to a lesser extent, court rulings. Other than killing people, pretty much everything the Executive branch does without the backing of those processes is temporary.

A president cannot bind future administrations to his policies, simply by demanding their slavish obedience to "reliability". A president cannot hold his successor to the terms of a bad deal just because he has to appear "reliable".

You complain that I think the president should be some kind of god-king, but you're the one proposing that he be able to rule in perpetuity by fiat.

When Obama signed onto the Iran deal in 2015, did you think that was a done deal, sealed for future administrations to comply with whether they liked it or not?

Oh.

Oh my god.

You did think that, didn't you?

Do you think the Iranians thought the same thing?
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Old 18th June 2019, 01:45 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
More to the point: why would he want Trump to be able to bind future presidents to international agreements that Congress never approved of? The Senate was given the power to ratify treaties for a reason.
I seem to recall that one of the major planks in Obama's "Hope and Change" platform was change in how the US approached international relations. "Smart power", "reset" the Russian relationship, etc.

The US had been reliably anti-Iran for decades, up until the Obama administration decided to try to change things up. Now TGZ is mad that Trump is steering the nation back onto that reliable course?

Obama changed how we do things, and now we have to keep the change to be "reliable"? I call shenanigans.
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Old 18th June 2019, 02:11 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh my. Where to begin?

Reliable like when Obama ****** Qaddafi as a reward for his agreement? Reliable like when Obama reneged on a previous administration's promise to underwrite Ukrainian national security?

Reliability. The US has very clear, well-established, and easily observed processes for ensuring the reliable continuation of policy: Laws, and to a lesser extent, court rulings. Other than killing people, pretty much everything the Executive branch does without the backing of those processes is temporary.

A president cannot bind future administrations to his policies, simply by demanding their slavish obedience to "reliability". A president cannot hold his successor to the terms of a bad deal just because he has to appear "reliable".

You complain that I think the president should be some kind of god-king, but you're the one proposing that he be able to rule in perpetuity by fiat.

When Obama signed onto the Iran deal in 2015, did you think that was a done deal, sealed for future administrations to comply with whether they liked it or not?

Oh.

Oh my god.

You did think that, didn't you?

Do you think the Iranians thought the same thing?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I seem to recall that one of the major planks in Obama's "Hope and Change" platform was change in how the US approached international relations. "Smart power", "reset" the Russian relationship, etc.

The US had been reliably anti-Iran for decades, up until the Obama administration decided to try to change things up. Now TGZ is mad that Trump is steering the nation back onto that reliable course?

Obama changed how we do things, and now we have to keep the change to be "reliable"? I call shenanigans.
Okay, these two posts are more dickish than perhaps strictly necessary.

TGZ: Yes, I agree that reliability in negotiations is a good thing to have, and a good reputation to establish.

However, I absolutely reject the notion that the president can set enduring national policy, or constrain his successors in any way, by fiat appeals to reliability. Enduring national policy is the sole authority of Congress. Constraining the president is the sole authority of Congress.
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Old 18th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #285
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So Trump is deescalating, contradicting the scumbags he keeps very close to himself. btw, this:

Originally Posted by TIME
Just hours earlier, Iran announced an escalation of its nuclear program, saying that within 10 days it will breach the limit on its stockpile of enriched uranium that was set under a 2015 nuclear deal with world powers.

is the usual rubbish you read and hear in the pre$$titute media these days. Why it is misleading and how they are lying through omissions is explained well by b in this recent MoA piece. Worth reading (as always).
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Old 18th June 2019, 05:28 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So Trump is deescalating
Heh. These posts aren't aging too well:

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Of course he does; Trump is jonesing for a war with Iran the same way W Bush wanted a war with Iraq.
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Yea, Trump is dreaming of a Grenada situation to save him.
Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
LOL. Imagine thinking the US would try to start a war on false pretences!
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Because of pressure from idiots in Congress and in his cabinet?
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Old 18th June 2019, 06:58 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. These posts aren't aging too well:
Go easy on CE. If she had been allowed to vote she would have voted for Trump.
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Old 18th June 2019, 07:49 PM   #288
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My point isn’t that i’m afraid the warmongering morons in Trump’s inner circle will actually start a war, it’s more the crisis happening and we have an especially untrustworthy government in place. If there is a buildup, this will be worse than Iraq part deux. Pompei can’t even slideshow like Powell; he’d be laughed out of the UN.
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Old 18th June 2019, 07:55 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
My point isn’t that i’m afraid the warmongering morons in Trump’s inner circle will actually start a war, it’s more the crisis happening and we have an especially untrustworthy government in place. If there is a buildup, this will be worse than Iraq part deux. Pompei can’t even slideshow like Powell; he’d be laughed out of the UN.
Good thing Trump is deescalating, then. Maybe this government isn't as untrustworthy as you fear. Maybe Trump's cabinet aren't the warmongering morons you imagine.

Do you ever look at developments like this and wonder how closely the anti Trump hype actually matches reality?
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:20 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Guess what: Obama isn't a reliable partner in negotiations. I'm not sure why that surprises you.
So you agree that in the past, the US has been an unreliable partner in negotiations.
I don't see Trump doing anything to rectify this.
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:11 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, these two posts are more dickish than perhaps strictly necessary.

TGZ: Yes, I agree that reliability in negotiations is a good thing to have, and a good reputation to establish.

However, I absolutely reject the notion that the president can set enduring national policy, or constrain his successors in any way, by fiat appeals to reliability. Enduring national policy is the sole authority of Congress. Constraining the president is the sole authority of Congress.
That's fair enough, but there is a cost.
And Trump's shift from the deal agreed by Obama and other US allies, for no obvious reason than apparently "bad deal", doesn't exactly fall under intelligent international relations.

Had Iran been shown to be flouting the deal as given, great. Or even been a bit naughty, at least he wouldn't have looked simply petty. But they appeared to be following the rules.

And, as I say, he is clearly in no hurry to renegotiate.
"Leave them dangling" might be a thing in his line of business, but it's a crappy way of handling negotiations with other countries. Some might say dangerous.
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:15 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Go easy on CE. If she had been allowed to vote she would have voted for Trump.

You're confused. I have a hard time taking our own political system seriously. Yours with its two fascist parties and bizarre quirks I can't, and I wouldn't have voted in it if I were a Yankistani. What I did do, though, is predicting that Trump will win, contrary to almost all of you folks. And I maintained that he is the lesser evil. Which I still think. With Killary we would have WWIII by now.

Oh, and you didn't understand the post you were replying to.
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 19th June 2019 at 03:29 AM. Reason: +oh
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:23 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Guess what: Obama isn't a reliable partner in negotiations.
How so?
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:41 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So you agree that in the past, the US has been an unreliable partner in negotiations.
I don't see Trump doing anything to rectify this.
Guess what, Obama isn't the Pres any more.
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Old 19th June 2019, 03:52 AM   #295
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Guess what, Obama isn't the Pres any more.
The case of Obama is special, because it is such a stark display of Republicans playing domestic politics with international issues. Traditionally, a change in administration let to only a gradual change in foreign policy.
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:38 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you know the difference between an agreement and a treaty?

No, you probably don't.
Sure but it really doesn't matter in this regard. See the Treaty he unilaterally withdrew from with Russia to help them out in their arms development. A president is not bound by laws and congress after all so the difference is irrelevant.
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:41 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Guess what, Obama isn't the Pres any more.
Neither is Reagan so we were right to pull out of 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty. No treaty or agreement with the US should be seen as binding and only a fool would trust them to honor it.
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Old 19th June 2019, 05:19 AM   #298
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Oil Tankers on Fire off Iran coast.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good thing Trump is deescalating, then. Maybe this government isn't as untrustworthy as you fear. Maybe Trump's cabinet aren't the warmongering morons you imagine.
When Trump took office, we had a multi-lateral agreement with Iran. I’m not seeing “de-escalation” — can you be more specific? What’s been de-escalated since 2016? Certainly not our sanctions regime or diplomacy-speak.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you ever look at developments like this and wonder how closely the anti Trump hype actually matches reality?
I do see hype. I also see a lot of negative developments and actions.



Also I meant “Pompeo” when I said Pompei with one i.

Last edited by carlitos; 19th June 2019 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:32 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good thing Trump is deescalating, then. Maybe this government isn't as untrustworthy as you fear. Maybe Trump's cabinet aren't the warmongering morons you imagine.

Do you ever look at developments like this and wonder how closely the anti Trump hype actually matches reality?


How much of his de-escalation is because the "anti-Trump hype" was wrong, and how much is because Trump realized he'd over played his hand, and is trying to get himself out of a bind, because lots of people he assumed would support him have said they think his evidence is ********?
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:40 AM   #300
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Article includes close-up photos...

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
The US Navy says mines used to carry out a Gulf tanker attack 'bear a striking resemblance' to those used by Iran, as investigators retrieve fingerprints from the ship.

The Navy today displayed limpet mine fragments and a magnet removed from a Japanese vessel, one of two oil tankers attacked in the Gulf of Oman last Thursday.

'The limpet mine that was used in the attack is distinguishable and also strikingly bearing a resemblance to Iranian mines that have already been publicly displayed in Iranian military parades,' said Commander Sean Kido at the Naval Forces Central Command (NAVCENT), near the Fujairah port in the UAE.

He added that fingerprints retrieved from the stricken Japanese vessel would be used to mount a criminal case...

The comments by Kido came as the Navy showed reporters pieces of debris and a magnet they say Iran's Revolutionary Guard left behind when they spirited away an unexploded limpet mine after the June 13 attack in the Gulf of Oman. Iran has also not acknowledged taking the mine.

Kido also stressed that the damage done to the Kokuka Courageous was 'not consistent with an external flying object hitting the ship,' despite the ship's owner blaming 'flying objects' for the damage in the attack...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...used-Iran.html
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:32 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
How much of his de-escalation is because the "anti-Trump hype" was wrong, and how much is because Trump realized he'd over played his hand, and is trying to get himself out of a bind, because lots of people he assumed would support him have said they think his evidence is ********?
What are you going to believe? Events that contradict predictions? Or Just So Stories that imagine how the predictions could still be true even though they're contradicted by events?
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:39 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Neither is Reagan so we were right to pull out of 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty. No treaty or agreement with the US should be seen as binding and only a fool would trust them to honor it.
No agreement with a particular US president, that is not ratified by Congress and codified in law, is binding even on that one president.

Only a fool would think otherwise.

The IRNFT is a little different, since it was actually ratified by Congress. However, it was ratified with clauses allowing that "[e] party has the right to withdraw from the treaty with six months' notice, "if it decides that extraordinary events related to the subject matter of this Treaty have jeopardized its supreme interests".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interm...reaty#Contents

So the Russians and the Americans both knew going in that either party could withdraw at any time.

This treaty has had a good long run, actually. And it's not like Russia is a reliable negotiator over time, either. Withdrawal and/or scrapping of the treaty was bound to happen sooner or later. I don't think anyone really believes that America has misled Russia on this issue.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:12 AM   #303
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Remember after the Iran Deal was signed, the Iranians captured US sailors and paraded them about? While Obama was President.

When Trump tore up that agreement, the harassment of US Naval ships ceased.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:35 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
How much of his de-escalation is because the "anti-Trump hype" was wrong, and how much is because Trump realized he'd over played his hand, and is trying to get himself out of a bind, because lots of people he assumed would support him have said they think his evidence is ********?

I wonder if de-escalating involves bringing back any of this that got sent over there in the last month or so. Including (but not necessarily limited to);
"A squadron of 12 jet fighters, several spy planes, Patriot missile batteries, a B-52 bomber task force, the USS Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier strike group and other military assets ..."
Not to mention the 1,000 men that just got sent there this week.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:36 AM   #305
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If you desire peace, prepare for war.

Speak softly, and deploy a big stick to the region.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:37 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wonder if de-escalating involves any of this that got sent over there in the last month or so. Including (but not necessarily limited to);
"A squadron of 12 jet fighters, several spy planes, Patriot missile batteries, a B-52 bomber task force, the USS Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier strike group and other military assets have already been dispatched to the region."
Not to mention the 1,000 men that just got sent there this week.
And when is increasing sanctions a deescalation?

The closest things to deescalation would be when Trump forgot about it to give gifts to Kim Jong Un.
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:10 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Remember after the Iran Deal was signed, the Iranians captured US sailors and paraded them about? While Obama was President.

When Trump tore up that agreement, the harassment of US Naval ships ceased.
Trump tore up the agreement in May of 2018. The harassment stopped the summer prior to that, maybe July - August of 2017.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iran-st...ommander-says/

Last edited by carlitos; 19th June 2019 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 19th June 2019, 01:38 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you desire peace, prepare for war.

Speak softly, and deploy a big stick to the region.
This may not be the best method, in my opinion.

Far better to send home all military forces, lift all pseudo-sanctions, reduce military spending and eliminate the (U.S.) budget deficit, former military people could work in factories to reduce peacefully the (U.S.) trade deficit (and build wind turbines or solar panels), and finally bring financial support for Tsahal to an end and force Israel to evacuate all illegally occupied territories.

Put more briefly: end American self-sustaining madness.
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:27 PM   #309
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Back to two ammunition ships at the local depot. I wonder how long it'll take them to get across the Pacific and Indian Oceans?
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:59 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This may not be the best method, in my opinion.

Far better to send home all military forces, lift all pseudo-sanctions, reduce military spending and eliminate the (U.S.) budget deficit, former military people could work in factories to reduce peacefully the (U.S.) trade deficit (and build wind turbines or solar panels), and finally bring financial support for Tsahal to an end and force Israel to evacuate all illegally occupied territories.

Put more briefly: end American self-sustaining madness.
If that's such a good idea then why doesn't the countries you always defend do it? Instead of sending bandits to Ukraine, shooting down airliners or poisoning people in Britain with weapons of mass destruction why don't your boyfriend Putin work on fixing his broken, corrupt and utterly dysfunctional country?

Same thing with Iran: stop lashing out at the rest world and stop pretending that getting nuclear weapons will somehow make up for how utterly terrible the country is. It's still a poor, corrupt country that can't amount to anything.

North Korea has nuclear weapons and they are still pretty much the worst country on earth. All that sacrifice was for nothing, even spending all those resources on conventional weapons would not only be just as effective in keeping their regime in power but would have caused far less diplomatic damage.
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:43 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you desire peace, prepare for war.

Speak softly, and deploy a big stick to the region.

We're talking about a guy who wondered what good nuclear weapons were if we didn't use them. Whose closest advisors have been itching for a war with Iran for years.

He's putting together an awfully big stick. Do you really believe he has the self-restraint not to use it?
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Old 19th June 2019, 04:48 PM   #312
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If that's such a good idea then why doesn't the countries you always defend do it? Instead of sending bandits to Ukraine, shooting down airliners or poisoning people in Britain with weapons of mass destruction why don't your boyfriend Putin work on fixing his broken, corrupt and utterly dysfunctional country?

Same thing with Iran: stop lashing out at the rest world and stop pretending that getting nuclear weapons will somehow make up for how utterly terrible the country is. It's still a poor, corrupt country that can't amount to anything.

North Korea has nuclear weapons and they are still pretty much the worst country on earth. All that sacrifice was for nothing, even spending all those resources on conventional weapons would not only be just as effective in keeping their regime in power but would have caused far less diplomatic damage.
Regarding Russia, some of their aggressive behavior you have noticed is probably related to the unfair pseudo-sanctions imposed on them: it should not be a crime to respect democracy, and the voice of the people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

About North Korea, a complete and unrestricted lifting of sanctions would probably (partly) cure many problems, even the lack of democracy, through economic exchanges and relations (ideally, nuclear weapons should be banned for all countries, including the one we are thinking about, not just for some small and weak countries which do not have the same scary record of bombings, arrogance and invasions).

As for Iran, its leaders seem to be fairly peaceful gentlemen, and obliging Israel to comply with international law would probably create a much better situation in the Middle East, better for peace, human rights, and economic prosperity. In addition, it would not cost anything to the U.S., this would actually allow the United States to save money.
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Old 19th June 2019, 06:42 PM   #313
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Regarding Russia, some of their aggressive behavior you have noticed is probably related to the unfair pseudo-sanctions imposed on them: it should not be a crime to respect democracy, and the voice of the people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.
They were placed under sanctions because they were engaging in a guerilla war, which started well before any votes.

Quote:
About North Korea, a complete and unrestricted lifting of sanctions would probably (partly) cure many problems, even the lack of democracy, through economic exchanges and relations
This is delusional. Extensive trade has not moved China any closer to democracy. Why on earth would it move North Korea in that direction?

Quote:
(ideally, nuclear weapons should be banned for all countries, including the one we are thinking about, not just for some small and weak countries which do not have the same scary record of bombings, arrogance and invasions).
How do you ban nuclear weapons from a country that wants them? Especially if bombings and invasions are off the table.

You haven't actually thought about any of this in any depth at all.

Quote:
As for Iran, its leaders seem to be fairly peaceful gentlemen
Bwahahahahahaha!

No. No, they are not. Not in the least.

Quote:
and obliging Israel to comply with international law would probably create a much better situation in the Middle East
Israel is an excuse for the problems in the Middle East, not the actual cause.
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Old 19th June 2019, 06:51 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bwahahahahahaha!

No. No, they are not. Not in the least.

Hahahahahahaha yes they are.

Check history. No aggressive wars in modern times. Last defensive war they fought was against your vicious puppet Saddam Hussein.
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Old 19th June 2019, 06:54 PM   #315
carlitos
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We're talking about a guy who wondered what good nuclear weapons were if we didn't use them.


And who mused, during the campaign, that maybe Japan and South Korea should have nukes, and maybe even Saudi Arabia as they are going to get them anyway.

And now we’re selling Saudi Arabia technology for nuclear power plants. What could go wrong?
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Old 19th June 2019, 07:45 PM   #316
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Hahahahahahaha yes they are.

Check history. No aggressive wars in modern times. Last defensive war they fought was against your vicious puppet Saddam Hussein.
They regularly sponsor terrorist attacks around the world. That isn’t peaceful. And you can’t claim it doesn’t count either, because it absolutely does.

And that’s not counting their proxy wars either.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:35 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They regularly sponsor terrorist attacks around the world. That isn’t peaceful. And you can’t claim it doesn’t count either, because it absolutely does.

And that’s not counting their proxy wars either.

No they don't. The people who regularly sponsor terrorist attacks around the world are Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel and the fat freak who admits that he cheats, lies and steals, Mike Pompeo.

Iran is the second oldest civilization on earth (after China) and is far above the dwellings of these lowlifes. And you have no excuse to support them, as you aren't stupid enough to buy the propaganda.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:31 AM   #318
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Neither modern China or Iran are the same 'civilisation' of antiquity.
You might as well claim modern Italians are Roman.
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:36 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am not a military expert, but Israel could have a submarine with combat divers on board able to do this within reach. I am not sure why they would require Saudi co-operation. A 'civilian' merchant vessel in the Arabian Sea could easily act as a tender.
Yeah, it shows. Such an operation going undetected by Saudis and Americans in the Arabian Gulf requires Romulan technology at a minimum.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This sounds like you're playing for a better draft pick.

You would give up a victory in Iran, so Trump doesn't look good.

Is that what I'm reading?

I'll give you a chance to clarify.
I meant:
1. If the war happens, I hope it won't be enough to reelect Trump.
2. If Iran blinks, I hope it won't be enough to reelect Trump.

Any sane person should agree, I think. Of course not reelecting Trump isn't worth a nuclear armed Iran. Probably.

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Old 20th June 2019, 03:38 AM   #320
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
No they don't. The people who regularly sponsor terrorist attacks around the world are Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel and the fat freak who admits that he cheats, lies and steals, Mike Pompeo.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Yes, Iran does sponsor terrorism. This is a fact, and your reflexive denial of it just because you have America makes you look ridiculous.
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