ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 23rd June 2019, 02:33 AM   #201
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,149
This article might interest the people who think that taking away women's right to their own toilet facilities is no big deal and would probably serve the bitches right anyway.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41999792
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2019, 08:45 AM   #202
Shadowdweller
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 782
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This article might interest the people who think that taking away women's right to their own toilet facilities is no big deal and would probably serve the bitches right anyway.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41999792
Too bad the article has nothing to do with your claim.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2019, 08:59 AM   #203
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,111
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's already been ruled (in the USA I believe) that girls have no right to visual privacy ...

That probably refers to a quote from the lawsuit by girls from Palatine, Illinois. They had sued to prevent a transgirl from using their locker room. They were represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom, but shortly after the judge issued that statement about "no right to visual privacy", the girls' lawsuit was dropped, ostensibly because all of the plaintiffs had graduated, as well as the transgirl at the heart of the case.

ETA: Here's the first link that popped up when I typed the phrase into google. It's from a Christian source, but it reflects accurately everything else I've read about the case. Shortly after the ruling, the lawsuit was dropped.

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019...h-school-girls


Because it was a district judge and not even part of a final ruling in a case, it's not exacty settled law, but it does give a hint at what might be expected in the future.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 23rd June 2019 at 09:03 AM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2019, 09:40 AM   #204
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,149
The vibes in Scotland are that the tide may be turning. It's early days yet and the transcult has its hooks well into some very senior politicians and organisations, so it won't be easy and I'm not optimistic about getting a proper re-evaluation of this from the ground up.

Nevertheless the existence of a highly politicised population including a lot of women who are outraged about what was being proposed has led to some very fast organisation, some women doing a lot of unpaid work that should have been done by civil servants (impact assessments, safeguarding guidelines and so on), and the government has taken a step back. A new consultation is promised and this time they intend to look at the impact on women and girls, not just pander to the transcult's every demand.

Interestingly, a little bird has cheeped that a choice selection of the sickening abuse trans activists have been subjecting women to online found its way on to the desks of some senior government mnisters, who boggled rather a lot and then did some very fast rethinking. So thanks for all the abuse, guys.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 04:50 AM   #205
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,729
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nice way to miss the entire point, which was that the world has much bigger issues than bathrooms.

Women like Rolfe don't want the trans women in the women's toilets, the trans women don't want to use the men's toilets...

I now believe the best answer to that conundrum is to completely ignore it and concentrate on the more important aspects. As it is, lawmakers are siding with the trans women, so women will just need to learn to get over it.

So to speak.
Yes that is the tradition of how these things work. Blacks wanted to go to the same schools as whites, whites didn't want that and the blacks won out.

What are the more important aspects,being able to throw someone out of their apartment or job for being trans?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 04:54 AM   #206
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,729
Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Or who would need to engage in unhealthy practices such as steroid use or blood doping to compete.
Like men who want to compete with Michael Phelps, people with excess biological talent need to be normalized in some fashion.

Yet no one seems to apply that logic to men's sports, why do women need this protection from those of excess natural ability but not men?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:14 AM   #207
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yet no one seems to apply that logic to men's sports, why do women need this protection from those of excess natural ability but not men?
Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. If you don't believe people without testicles deserve a league of their own, just say so.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:20 AM   #208
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,729
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. If you don't believe people without testicles deserve a league of their own, just say so.
The arguement is about those of excess natural ability, and Michael Phelps counts as he has lots of highly unusual biology that give him a competitive advantage. Why does this argument only apply to women? You are ignoring the celebration that his freakish advantages are given.

Michael Phelps needs to take medication to increase his lactic acid production up to normal levels, or are you claiming that decreased lactic acid production does not give him a competitive advantage and as a performance enhancing drug he should be in a league of his own.

Here is an article showing his massive competitive biological advantage. It is clearly unfair for him to compete against others.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...elps-so-good1/
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:25 AM   #209
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why does this argument only apply to women?
Because humans are sexually dimorphic, literally half of them cannot be expected to compete at the same level as the other half in terms of size, musculature, hemoglobin concentration, etc.

ETA: If you want to do away with women's sport, just say so.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

Last edited by d4m10n; 24th June 2019 at 05:27 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:28 AM   #210
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,729
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Because humans are sexually dimorphic, literally half of them cannot be expected to compete at the same level as the other half in terms of size, musculature, hemoglobin concentration, etc.
How does that mean they need to be shielded from the extremes of their own sexes biology but not men? I get it they are soft and gentle creatures who really are not suited to sports and competition physically or emotionally in the first place but if that is really your argument you should be making it.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:29 AM   #211
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How does that mean they need to be shielded from the extremes of their own sexes biology but not men?
Please expand on this. What are your criteria for inclusion?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 06:48 AM   #212
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,659
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How does that mean they need to be shielded from the extremes of their own sexes biology but not men? I get it they are soft and gentle creatures who really are not suited to sports and competition physically or emotionally in the first place but if that is really your argument you should be making it.
What's your solution, ponderingturtle?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:13 AM   #213
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Can't we assume that her T-concentration is (naturally) some way above 5 nmol/l?
I think we can say it's above 10 nmol/L. When she did take hormone blockers, the limit was higher than it is now. More importantly, it's kind of meaningless information, assuming she does have an androgen insensitivity.

Quote:
Rolling it back is apt to look like targeted exclusion but it may also be the second wrong that (partly) rights the first. But this may be where ultimately she wins; too bad if the original rules were "wrong", you can not now dial them back because that is too discriminatory.
The obvious solution, given that we'd then have the IAAF trying to correct an IAAF ****-up, would be to grandfather in any currently competing athletes. It would also have the benefit of not looking like an anti-Semenya rule.

Originally Posted by Francesca R (writing to Rolfe)
FWIW that bit isn't a response to anything I wrote (and kinda looks like it is)
For the record, it's also not a response to anything I wrote.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:21 AM   #214
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Can you describe what you mean by "gender identity"?
Subjective experience of ones own gender.

Quote:
I'm not aware of any "plausible evolutionary account for neuroanatomical basis" for this mysterious inner essence, either.
Sexual division of labor is an obvious choice. "Mysterious inner essence" is a straw man, in a thread with whole lineages of straw men along the same lines.

In any case, we know that gender identity is phenomenal, in part due to the treatment of people with intersex conditions.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:23 AM   #215
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Subjective experience of ones own gender.
What does that even mean?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:28 AM   #216
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What does that even mean?
Which word are you have trouble with?
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:30 AM   #217
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
"Subjective experiences of one's own gender."

You could say "Subjective experience of one's own height" or "Subjective experience of one's own eye color" and it would be just as valid.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:34 AM   #218
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,289
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Subjective experience of ones own gender.


Sexual division of labor is an obvious choice. "Mysterious inner essence" is a straw man, in a thread with whole lineages of straw men along the same lines.

In any case, we know that gender identity is phenomenal, in part due to the treatment of people with intersex conditions.
If gender identity is phenomenal then by which sense can I perceive it? What experiment would I perform to determine someone's gender identity?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:36 AM   #219
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,149
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
For the record, it's also not a response to anything I wrote.

It is, actually.

Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I don't see that the 99% have a greater claim to fairness than the 1%.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:37 AM   #220
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,289
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Subjective experiences of one's own gender."

You could say "Subjective experience of one's own height" or "Subjective experience of one's own eye color" and it would be just as valid.
No, because height and eye color are empirically observable whereas gender isn't. A better example would be "Subjective experience of one's own mysterious inner essence."
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:38 AM   #221
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You could say "Subjective experience of one's own height" or "Subjective experience of one's own eye color" and it would be just as valid.
You could say that. There's nothing stopping you from defining "height identity" as "subjective experience of one's own height."

The question is why you would do that, given that there's no evidence that people have a height identity influenced by neuroanatomical differences.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:38 AM   #222
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, because height and eye color are empirically observable whereas gender isn't. A better example would be "Subjective experience of one's own mysterious inner essence."
This is why I've been reduced to calling it a soul.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:40 AM   #223
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is, actually.
Try reading that again, but for subtext.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:41 AM   #224
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,289
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is why I've been reduced to calling it a soul.
Yes, by mumblethrax's argument a soul is phenomenal because the same experiment that allows you to determine someone's gender identity (namely asking them "do you have a gender identity?") also allows you to determine someone's soul (namely asking them "do you have a soul?"). That is, unless mumblethrax comes up with a different experiment to determine someone's gender identity that is not based on merely asking the person in question.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:42 AM   #225
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
The question is why you would do that, given that there's no evidence that people have a height identity influenced by neuroanatomical differences.
So we have a "Gender Soul" but not a "Height Soul."

Got it.

I am literally never going to get an answer to "gender" is, what it does, or how I'm supposed to react to it beyond "Shut up and just nod and agree with whatever the person says because it's there.... *pause for dramatic effect* IDENTITY!" am I?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:43 AM   #226
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If gender identity is phenomenal then by which sense can I perceive it? What experiment would I perform to determine someone's gender identity?
You could try giving sex reassignment surgery to boys born with deformed genitalia and then look at the outcomes.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:45 AM   #227
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So we have a "Gender Soul" but not a "Height Soul."

Got it.
No, that's another in that long line of straw men.

Quote:
I am literally never going to get an answer to "gender" is, what it does, or how I'm supposed to react to it beyond "Shut up and just nod and agree with whatever the person says because it's there.... *pause for dramatic effect* IDENTITY!" am I?
You've been given that answer countless times. It's not anyone's problem but your own that it causes you to spit the dummy.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:45 AM   #228
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You could try giving sex reassignment surgery to boys born with deformed genitalia and then look at the outcomes.
That happened once. Didn't go well. Really, really horrible story.

The story of David (or Bruce or Brenda it got weird) Brenner.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:47 AM   #229
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
No, that's another in that long line of straw men.
Until you give me something that isn't the same thing, no it's not.

"There this undetectable, completely internal, part of me that you have to take my word on."

It's a soul. Give me something other then that, or it's a soul.

At this point your fulfilling the same role in this discussion as Jabba.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:49 AM   #230
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,032
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, because height and eye color are empirically observable whereas gender isn't.
Gender is relatively easy to observe if you take it to mean what I take it to mean.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:50 AM   #231
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,659
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Subjective experiences of one's own gender."

You could say "Subjective experience of one's own height" or "Subjective experience of one's own eye color" and it would be just as valid.
Just as valid, but not something society is having much of a problem with right now.

Again, human beings are not systems of formal logic. If you can't wrap your head around the intersection of social cues and self identity, and the feedback loops that arise there, you probably have no business participating in this discussion.

Likewise if you can't wrap your head around the idea that two superficially similar physical properties will often have very different weights in society, for reasons you will probably never know.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:51 AM   #232
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
We can't use the gender/sex distinction as proof when the only difference between the two things is internal image of and external evidence for.

We could make up a gender equivalent to height and eye color, one that actually exists in the real world and one that exists in your... hearts of hearts we just don't.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:52 AM   #233
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Just as valid, but not something society is having much of a problem with right now.
Yeah and let me tell you adding "transgenderism" into the mix has really made the "we don't treat the sexes fairly/equally" problem go away.

Quote:
Again, human beings are not systems of formal logic.
Again, this can't be your go-to excuse to wave away everything that doesn't make sense.

Person A: "X = Y, but X does not equal Y."
Me: "That doesn't make sense."
You: "Oh we're not systems of formal logic."

Fine. I'll settle for informal logic. Or any logic. Or even just someone explaining anything beyond "Because the person says so."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 24th June 2019 at 07:54 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:55 AM   #234
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That happened once. Didn't go well. Really, really horrible story.

The story of David (or Bruce or Brenda it got weird) Brenner.
It happened much more than once, which is why it's possible to look at studies, and not just cases.

But I suppose you think David Brenner's understanding of himself as a man, despite having been raised as a woman, was just him invoking some mysterious "gender soul".

Quote:
Until you give me something that isn't the same thing, no it's not.
I already have. "Identity" does not mean "soul", and there's absolutely no controversy over the idea that identity exists.

You're trying to refute a claim by pretending it's a different claim, which is a fallacy.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 24th June 2019 at 07:56 AM.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:59 AM   #235
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You're trying to refute a claim by pretending it's a different claim, which is a fallacy.
Okay listen I'm very, very impressed by your ability to call arguments you don't want to deal with a bad name. Here's your cookie.

I'm done asking the same question over and over and get "Distinction without difference" repeated at me again and again.

Define the difference between a gender and sex in a way that is functionally different from "The sex you are" and "The sex you want to be."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:12 AM   #236
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay listen I'm very, very impressed by your ability to call arguments you don't want to deal with a bad name. Here's your cookie.
I am not at all impressed by your ability to construct sound arguments. You're bad at it, resorting to childishness instead.

Quote:
I'm done asking the same question over and over and get "Distinction without difference" repeated at me again and again.
It really doesn't seem that way to me. It seems to me like you're "teaching the controversy", and thus will raise the question over and over again, while acting exasperated that you "have to" do it again.

Quote:
Define the difference between a gender and sex in a way that is functionally different from "The sex you are" and "The sex you want to be."
Gender encompasses all social, cultural, and psychological aspects of masculinity and femininity, and thus is broader than "The sex you want to be" (at the very least, it also includes "the behavior other people expect of you").
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:20 AM   #237
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Gender encompasses all social, cultural, and psychological aspects of masculinity and femininity, and thus is broader than "The sex you want to be" (at the very least, it also includes "the behavior other people expect of you").
1. Actual sexual biological differences that you can't change (outside of actual medical sexual reassignment surgery).

2. Social roles placed on the sexes (Men have to do this, Women have to do this, Girls are expected to do this, boys are expected to do this) that we should be working to get rid of.

3. A magical third category I keep getting told exists that seems to consist of nothing but the parts of #2 that people want to keep for the sole purpose of subverting.

What am I missing? What variable am I not accounting for?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 24th June 2019 at 08:25 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:41 AM   #238
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
3. A magical third category I keep getting told exists that seems to consist of nothing but the Parts of 2 that people want to keep for the sole purpose of subverting.
I don't even know what you're trying to do. You're not describing categories.

But I've already given a definition of gender identity, and some discussion of why it's different from a contrived "height identity", and yet here you are, talking about "magical" differences again. What to say? You are striving to remain ignorant.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:46 AM   #239
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,729
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I don't even know what you're trying to do. You're not describing categories.

But I've already given a definition of gender identity, and some discussion of why it's different from a contrived "height identity", and yet here you are, talking about "magical" differences again. What to say? You are striving to remain ignorant.
Yet they seem oddly willing to accept sexual orientation at peoples word with out any kind of strict medical proof of such a thing.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:49 AM   #240
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,579
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
But I've already given a definition of gender identity, and some discussion of why it's different from a contrived "height identity", and yet here you are, talking about "magical" differences again. What to say? You are striving to remain ignorant.
This discussion is going to go nowhere even faster then it is if people can't understand that "Well I already told you" isn't an argument if I've already told I don't accept/agree with what you've said.

I don't accept completely internal criteria in the way you are asking me to do. "Identity" isn't a thing that I factor in how I view the world in the way you're telling me to.

We're disagreeing and having a discussion about that. I'm not just waiting to tell me what to think again because I didn't hear you the first time.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 24th June 2019 at 08:50 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:09 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.