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Old 7th July 2019, 10:38 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They can have as many patents as they like but they do not own the patent for trainers, running shoes and sports wear in general. AIUI it was Addidas who invented the trainer, in Germany. Truth is, you cannot patent or copyright fashion.

Sure you can patent a 'design' but all it needs is someone to simply change the shape of the circles and ridges on the sole, the number of lace eyes, length of the lip, height of the heel and there is NOTHING to stop you from bringing it out. It's only if you use the Nike logo you're in trouble.

Mary Quant 'invented' the mini skirt. Could Mary Quant stop anyone else from producing them? No. is the short answer.

My cheap trainers are by a Dutch company called Kappa. They are the only trainers that seem to fit me perfectly. The last pair lasted about three years of constant wear and at that price it was no big deal to chuck them out.
Apple can have as many patents as they like but they do not own the patent for mobile phones, computers and watches in general.....
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Old 7th July 2019, 01:40 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Apple can have as many patents as they like but they do not own the patent for mobile phones, computers and watches in general.....
They do own a solid product other than just being a logo. You can patent and trademark ideas and inventions.

You cannot do the same for fashions and trends. All you can do is slap a 'designer' label on it and then the public are buying your creativity and flair.

Certainly it can make you very rich if you can create a brand that everybody wants to buy and are willing to pay a premium for your label.

Problem with Nike is it is not even a brand merely a logo on goods made all over the world (mostly third world Indonesia and SE Asia) in any number of factories. Hate to be brutal but Nike is the favourite example in business schools of something that is little more than a logo. Likewise, Coca-Cola is not sold on the strength of the nondescript brown sugary liquid. Its selling point is the Coca-Cola tin. It spends millions on the tin design. Logo time again. But at least it manufactures the product.

Nothing wrong or immoral about it.

All I am saying is that anybody can take the Betsy Ross flag and sew it onto a pair of trainers. It's not copyright to Nike. Might be wise to move them to the side of the trainer to avoid a visit from the boys.
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Old 7th July 2019, 04:22 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They do own a solid product other than just being a logo. You can patent and trademark ideas and inventions.

You cannot do the same for fashions and trends. All you can do is slap a 'designer' label on it and then the public are buying your creativity and flair.

Certainly it can make you very rich if you can create a brand that everybody wants to buy and are willing to pay a premium for your label.

Problem with Nike is it is not even a brand merely a logo on goods made all over the world (mostly third world Indonesia and SE Asia) in any number of factories. Hate to be brutal but Nike is the favourite example in business schools of something that is little more than a logo. Likewise, Coca-Cola is not sold on the strength of the nondescript brown sugary liquid. Its selling point is the Coca-Cola tin. It spends millions on the tin design. Logo time again. But at least it manufactures the product.

Nothing wrong or immoral about it.

All I am saying is that anybody can take the Betsy Ross flag and sew it onto a pair of trainers. It's not copyright to Nike. Might be wise to move them to the side of the trainer to avoid a visit from the boys.

Well.... this is all kinds of wrong.

Nike is far, far more than "just a logo". And if you think Nike isn't a brand, well......... Likewise with Coke.

Let me explain. A logo is a piece of graphic art (which may or may not incorporate a brand name). But the point is this: a logo represents a brand. And in turn, a brand represents a certain set of perceived values.

To take Nike as an example: the Nike "swoosh" is a great logo, since it's bold and unique and able to be seen & recognised from a distance on clothing and footwear products.

BUT, that logo does no more than represent the Nike brand. And when people buy Nike products, I assure you that the vast majority do so based on their perceived value of the brand and what the brand represents; very few would buy Nike products on the basis of "ooh that's a nice logo" and nothing more....

And I'd suggest that most people (that is, people within Nike's target market of people aged around 12-60 in with income levels at or above the media for developed economies) have the following general perceptions of the Nike brand: their products are very well made, from quality materials, and are often innovative in their field; it's "cool" to be seen wearing Nike products; successful people - including many world-class athletes, and many famous and successful people in other fields such as street music - wear Nike products, so I can vicariously feel successful by wearing the same products. That sort of thing.

And at this point, it's crucial to understand two things. Firstly, it's completely wrong to think that the Nike logo is the entire (or even predominant) factor in the way people consume Nike product. The label has huge intangible value, for sure, but ONLY BECAUSE it represents the Nike brand. And I can completely assure you that if, for example, a) Nike's products started getting a reputation for being substandard, or b) the Nike brand took a big negative hit*, or c) many of Nike's athlete partners switched to a different brand, then sales of Nike products would almost invariably suffer. The beauty of the label (and of most well-designed labels) is that it's an immediate indication that the product is made by Nike. That's all it is though.


And you're completely wrong about Coke too, for similar reasons. The Coca-Cola logo, the red colouration, and the iconic Coke bottle, are no more than pointers to the fact that the product within is made by Coca Cola. When people choose to buy Coke, they don't do so because the like the can or bottle design per se. They buy it because they want to buy into Coke's brand values. They see adverts containing beautiful successful people drinking Coke. They see Coke sponsoring global sporting events. They see Coke as "cool". They like the taste of the drink. THOSE are the kinds of reasons why coke sells.

And in fact your hypothesis is disproved at a stroke by an event which happened about 25 years ago or so: Coke changed the formula of the drink, without making any other changes (same can/bottle design, same marketing and advertising, etc). But a large number of consumers didn't like the changed product. So they stopped buying it. Sales - especially in the US - slumped dramatically. Eventually the company was forced to reintroduce the original formula product, which they now called "Classic Coke". A couple of years later, they quietly dropped the new formula product altogether, and sold the original product under the original brand name.


* And indeed this has happened on a smallish scale, with previous revelations about where and how many of Nike's products are manufactured: sales did indeed fall below prior expectations, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Nike logo.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:28 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well.... this is all kinds of wrong.

Nike is far, far more than "just a logo". And if you think Nike isn't a brand, well......... Likewise with Coke.

Let me explain. A logo is a piece of graphic art (which may or may not incorporate a brand name). But the point is this: a logo represents a brand. And in turn, a brand represents a certain set of perceived values.

To take Nike as an example: the Nike "swoosh" is a great logo, since it's bold and unique and able to be seen & recognised from a distance on clothing and footwear products.

BUT, that logo does no more than represent the Nike brand. And when people buy Nike products, I assure you that the vast majority do so based on their perceived value of the brand and what the brand represents; very few would buy Nike products on the basis of "ooh that's a nice logo" and nothing more....

And I'd suggest that most people (that is, people within Nike's target market of people aged around 12-60 in with income levels at or above the media for developed economies) have the following general perceptions of the Nike brand: their products are very well made, from quality materials, and are often innovative in their field; it's "cool" to be seen wearing Nike products; successful people - including many world-class athletes, and many famous and successful people in other fields such as street music - wear Nike products, so I can vicariously feel successful by wearing the same products. That sort of thing.

And at this point, it's crucial to understand two things. Firstly, it's completely wrong to think that the Nike logo is the entire (or even predominant) factor in the way people consume Nike product. The label has huge intangible value, for sure, but ONLY BECAUSE it represents the Nike brand. And I can completely assure you that if, for example, a) Nike's products started getting a reputation for being substandard, or b) the Nike brand took a big negative hit*, or c) many of Nike's athlete partners switched to a different brand, then sales of Nike products would almost invariably suffer. The beauty of the label (and of most well-designed labels) is that it's an immediate indication that the product is made by Nike. That's all it is though.


And you're completely wrong about Coke too, for similar reasons. The Coca-Cola logo, the red colouration, and the iconic Coke bottle, are no more than pointers to the fact that the product within is made by Coca Cola. When people choose to buy Coke, they don't do so because the like the can or bottle design per se. They buy it because they want to buy into Coke's brand values. They see adverts containing beautiful successful people drinking Coke. They see Coke sponsoring global sporting events. They see Coke as "cool". They like the taste of the drink. THOSE are the kinds of reasons why coke sells.

And in fact your hypothesis is disproved at a stroke by an event which happened about 25 years ago or so: Coke changed the formula of the drink, without making any other changes (same can/bottle design, same marketing and advertising, etc). But a large number of consumers didn't like the changed product. So they stopped buying it. Sales - especially in the US - slumped dramatically. Eventually the company was forced to reintroduce the original formula product, which they now called "Classic Coke". A couple of years later, they quietly dropped the new formula product altogether, and sold the original product under the original brand name.


* And indeed this has happened on a smallish scale, with previous revelations about where and how many of Nike's products are manufactured: sales did indeed fall below prior expectations, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Nike logo.

I hear what you are saying but from a business studies POV you will discover that for Coca-Cola the tin IS Coca-Cola and huge amounts of money and research is spent by Coca-Cola constantly refining the Coca-Cola tin.

I can recommend the very readable book about Coca-Cola in plain English by Mark Thomas - it is a real eye-opener.

Belching Out the Devil: Global Adventures with Coca-Cola


Also, Naomi Klein's No Logo might be hugely informative if you believe Nike is based on anything Nike produces. It acts rather like an agent. It has found a 'cash cow' so of course it runs with it but don't be deluded into thinking they are a proper manufacturer.

One reviewer explains it as thus:

Quote:
Naomi Klein links the production of goods in the export processing zones (EPZs)of countries like China, The Philippines, Inodonesia and Vietnem to the methods of promoting these goods in the usa and europe. The EPZs are basically areas in the host countries that are given over to manufacturers, these manufacturers typically pay no taxes and are exempt from labour laws but receive protection of the police and the military, in case the poorly paid workforce organasies,demands union rights or does anything at all to protest the pitiful wages they receive. It is one horror story after another, the main thing that stuck in my mind was the young teenage girls saying all they wanted was short enough hours and enough pay to be able to go to school at night. The owners of these factories are not the big brand names them selves, the brands work purely by outsourcing to them thus disassociating themselves and also giving them the optiopn to outsource to any of the companies operating from EPZs from up to 70 countries, thsi level of competion keeps cost mega low, cost savings which are hardly passed onto the comsumer, when workers were shown prices of $150 trainers from Nikes stores in the usa they were understanderable shocked. Klein also explores how these sky high prices are maintained in the west from tales of how us schools have stooped so low that in selling out to corporations that they will actually have class discussions on how to advertise burger king and force children to watch adverts at certain points in the day to the well documented accounts of how much sports stars are paid to endorse these goods.
One reason people are confused is because we are so used to firms like Proctor and Gamble producing soaps and detergents, Heinz producing its '57 varieties' of food, Cadbury's chocolate, Bourneville, etc., etc, all producing and having 100% control over every stage of their production process, owning the factoires, employing the staff (of course, some backroom aspects, like logistics and payroll might well be traditionally outsourced, but not the frontline), it's understandable the average person assumes Nike is similar.

Because industries are traditionally secretive - confidentiality over their recipes and production processes etc, - it means Nike gets to flog its logo and everyone assumes it is a company similar to the aforementioned.

And it works as one or two posters have rushed to Nike's defence as their loyal consumers. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:31 AM   #125
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//Total hijack//

I actually really like it when the "Field of Stars" are rounded instead of in rows. If we ever wind up with a 51st state I hope we go with:



instead of

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Old 8th July 2019, 10:36 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Total hijack//

I actually really like it when the "Field of Stars" are rounded instead of in rows. If we ever wind up with a 51st state I hope we go with:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12195

instead of

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12196
There's a whole subcategory of vexillology dedicated to coming up with different possible arrangements of additional numbers of stars to the US flag. Some of the possible arrangements are bizarre or comical.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's a whole subcategory of vexillology dedicated to coming up with different possible arrangements of additional numbers of stars to the US flag. Some of the possible arrangements are bizarre or comical.
The article I found those two pics from also included a Pac-man shaped star field, so yeah.
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:46 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How many hours have you devoted to sneaker culture? If very little, why would I care about an opinion you just formed in the last week?
Why would I care about the opinion of anyone who believes that “sneaker culture” is a thing worth caring about?
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Old 8th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The article I found those two pics from also included a Pac-man shaped star field, so yeah.
I saw a Death Star one, but it's a little too on the nose for the US.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:01 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I hear what you are saying but from a business studies POV you will discover that for Coca-Cola the tin IS Coca-Cola and huge amounts of money and research is spent by Coca-Cola constantly refining the Coca-Cola tin.

I can recommend the very readable book about Coca-Cola in plain English by Mark Thomas - it is a real eye-opener.

Belching Out the Devil: Global Adventures with Coca-Cola


Also, Naomi Klein's No Logo might be hugely informative if you believe Nike is based on anything Nike produces. It acts rather like an agent. It has found a 'cash cow' so of course it runs with it but don't be deluded into thinking they are a proper manufacturer.

One reviewer explains it as thus:

That's cute. "One reviewer....". Which reviewer? What are his/her credentials, because they know NOTHING about EPZ regulations. They are not tax free! They are not exempt from national labor laws and minimum wage standards. EPZs are free of duty and any import taxes BECAUSE THE GOODS PRODUCED THERE ARE FOR EXPORT. SOLELY FOR EXPORT. They use massive amounts of raw material, a lot of it imported, and rather than having to file for drawback on duties (all countries allow this), they move the goods in duty free. There are such arrangements in Merry Olde. Very complicated and not behind a zoned off fence, but it's a common practice.

You're citing an idiot as proof that YOU are right? Sorry but it's proof of something else. I know the business. I handled a lot of it, not just for garment/retail but for a cross-section of Fortune 500 businesses. You are ignorant on the topic and you display your ignorance with each ensuing post. Please stop digging.

Quote:
One reason people are confused is because we are so used to firms like Proctor and Gamble producing soaps and detergents, Heinz producing its '57 varieties' of food, Cadbury's chocolate, Bourneville, etc., etc, all producing and having 100% control over every stage of their production process, owning the factoires, employing the staff (of course, some backroom aspects, like logistics and payroll might well be traditionally outsourced, but not the frontline), it's understandable the average person assumes Nike is similar.

Because industries are traditionally secretive - confidentiality over their recipes and production processes etc, - it means Nike gets to flog its logo and everyone assumes it is a company similar to the aforementioned.
Christ! Do you know ANYTHING about sourcing and outsourcing. Again, in the companies you list as the "models", I know three of them and have handled their outsourcing... finished products that they produce overseas at CMs in either EPZs or in factory estates. NDAs signed with my former employee (and just plain good manners) prevent me from naming names, but my job was to manage the Global Key Accounts' overall sourcing in all of Asia. I had a staff of seventy-five people and we handled origin sourcing for close to a million container loads a year! Do you think Unilever is still making its product in England and shipping it over on China Clippers to the colonies, fer crissake?

Just Google the names of the companies you think are models of the OEM model and add the word "outsourcing". Big Food is basically in the business of buying companies to introduce new products because they develop nothing on their own any longer. They then cut the fat, put production in one or another food plant, and rebrand the purchased company's products.

Quote:

And it works as one or two posters have rushed to Nike's defence as their loyal consumers. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
No one's defending Nike. That's a straw man of your creation. We're trying to prevent the spread of ignorance as you go on yet another Gish Gallop of Misinformation. No one is in favor of sweatshops or of closing shoe factories in the home countries. We are simply pointing out Retail 101 information that you are sorely lacking. Nike is not "just a logo". Nike is a company that develops and produces sports shoes, clothing and equipment. It happens to have a logo. That does not mean it is All Logo. This is a stupid contention and that is all that anyone is trying to correct.

I have been to those factories and EPZs that you're so ill-informed about. I have had to hire hand-couriers to fly, first class, to origin factories when the moulds or designs had to be delivered. Nike doesn't just slap the swoop on someone's socks. They send two hundred pages of requirements, from the fibers to the dyes to the elastic and then if the factory can produce the product that they've (Nike) designed, they may award them the contract.


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Old 8th July 2019, 07:37 PM   #131
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Again, you are arguing with a fiction writer doing a fictional character. You may as we’ll argue with Theo Huxtable about who makes the best sweater vests.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:42 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Again, you are arguing with a fiction writer doing a fictional character. You may as we’ll argue with Theo Huxtable about who makes the best sweater vests.
Heathcliff Huxtable. Theo was his son.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:49 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Why would I care about the opinion of anyone who believes that “sneaker culture” is a thing worth caring about?
Because sneaker culture is a substantial and rewarding economic, artistic, and social activity that engages millions of human beings around the world. In the interest of you being a human being yourself, it's probably a good idea not to so casually dismiss the things your fellow humans find interesting.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:20 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Heathcliff Huxtable. Theo was his son.


Sorry - Theo was maybe more of a sneaker head.
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Old 8th July 2019, 11:49 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Do you have any evidence for this?
Yes.

https://medium.com/s/story/does-the-...t-6cf3309df985
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:01 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Err, no

Here is the original 4Chan post that started it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/onwjwgzw9g...-684.jpg?raw=1

There are no web archives that I can find showing an association between the "OK" sign and white supremacy prior to 2017
No, that's not what started it.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:51 PM   #137
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They should have used the "Don't Tread On Me" flag instead.......
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:31 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
That's cute. "One reviewer....". Which reviewer? What are his/her credentials, because they know NOTHING about EPZ regulations. They are not tax free! They are not exempt from national labor laws and minimum wage standards. EPZs are free of duty and any import taxes BECAUSE THE GOODS PRODUCED THERE ARE FOR EXPORT. SOLELY FOR EXPORT. They use massive amounts of raw material, a lot of it imported, and rather than having to file for drawback on duties (all countries allow this), they move the goods in duty free. There are such arrangements in Merry Olde. Very complicated and not behind a zoned off fence, but it's a common practice.

You're citing an idiot as proof that YOU are right? Sorry but it's proof of something else. I know the business. I handled a lot of it, not just for garment/retail but for a cross-section of Fortune 500 businesses. You are ignorant on the topic and you display your ignorance with each ensuing post. Please stop digging.



Christ! Do you know ANYTHING about sourcing and outsourcing. Again, in the companies you list as the "models", I know three of them and have handled their outsourcing... finished products that they produce overseas at CMs in either EPZs or in factory estates. NDAs signed with my former employee (and just plain good manners) prevent me from naming names, but my job was to manage the Global Key Accounts' overall sourcing in all of Asia. I had a staff of seventy-five people and we handled origin sourcing for close to a million container loads a year! Do you think Unilever is still making its product in England and shipping it over on China Clippers to the colonies, fer crissake?

Just Google the names of the companies you think are models of the OEM model and add the word "outsourcing". Big Food is basically in the business of buying companies to introduce new products because they develop nothing on their own any longer. They then cut the fat, put production in one or another food plant, and rebrand the purchased company's products.



No one's defending Nike. That's a straw man of your creation. We're trying to prevent the spread of ignorance as you go on yet another Gish Gallop of Misinformation. No one is in favor of sweatshops or of closing shoe factories in the home countries. We are simply pointing out Retail 101 information that you are sorely lacking. Nike is not "just a logo". Nike is a company that develops and produces sports shoes, clothing and equipment. It happens to have a logo. That does not mean it is All Logo. This is a stupid contention and that is all that anyone is trying to correct.

I have been to those factories and EPZs that you're so ill-informed about. I have had to hire hand-couriers to fly, first class, to origin factories when the moulds or designs had to be delivered. Nike doesn't just slap the swoop on someone's socks. They send two hundred pages of requirements, from the fibers to the dyes to the elastic and then if the factory can produce the product that they've (Nike) designed, they may award them the contract.


>>> We now return you to your regular podcast "Sheldon Cooper's Fun With Flags".
You are writing from the POV of a loyal ex-employee.

I guess nobody likes to be told they were working for a logo.

I appreciate your perspective.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:45 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are writing from the POV of a loyal ex-employee.

I guess nobody likes to be told they were working for a logo.

I appreciate your perspective.


Oh boyyyyyyyyyyy
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:58 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

How do you define "long before"? Pranks, hoaxes, and even sincere sentiments originating from 4chan seem to have influenced the alt-right from its inception (chicken/egg, tail wagging dog). Please address my followup post #119.

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Old 9th July 2019, 08:24 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are writing from the POV of a loyal ex-employee.

I guess nobody likes to be told they were working for a logo.

I appreciate your perspective.
Since you have no idea what a patent is, what an EPZ is or what a modern manufacturer and marketer does, I should not be surprised that you don't understand what the logistics side of the supply chain business does.

These companies were clients of ours. I worked for a provider of these companies. I have no loyalty to any of them, nor to their brands or logos.

I'm raising a kid who's grown 25 cm in the last eighteen months. If I wasn't a clever shopper, his shoe budget would've put me in the poor house (he's gone through four sizes, heading for five). Nike, adidas, Reebok, New Balance... they're all over-priced and with a one-kid family, we are recycling almost unused trainers because they get no wear-and-tear before they outgrow them. Luckily, we've got relatives and friends that we can send them off to. One pair of trainers from when he was four are now on their seventh cousin! They last forever.

My point has nothing to do with brand-buying loyalty. My point is that you misidentified the business that Nike is in. That is all.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:22 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
You said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

How do you define "long before"? Pranks, hoaxes, and even sincere sentiments originating from 4chan seem to have influenced the alt-right from its inception (chicken/egg, tail wagging dog). Please address my followup post #119.
A year or two. Minimum.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:01 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A year or two. Minimum.
4chan was involved all along. It's okay to admit you were mistaken.
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:33 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
4chan was involved all along. It's okay to admit you were mistaken.
I haven't seen any evidence that I was. The only evidence provided was by me, and it shows that I'm right. If the habit originally began at 4chan, I don't know, but in that case it was not as a hoax. Thus, saying that the "ok" sign being a white supremacist signal was started as a hoax is unevidenced.

The alt-right wants you to think they're joking. They want especially centrists to belive this. They know leftists see through their charade, but as long as they can make centrists believe leftists are out of their minds for thinking something so benign as an "ok"-sign is a nazi-symbol, the alt-right have won.

In short, the joke here is making centrists believe leftists are falsely seeing nazis everywhere, when in fact, there are nazis everywhere.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:32 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I haven't seen any evidence that I was. The only evidence provided was by me, and it shows that I'm right. If the habit originally began at 4chan, I don't know, but in that case it was not as a hoax. Thus, saying that the "ok" sign being a white supremacist signal was started as a hoax is unevidenced.
The "habit" couldn't originally begin at 4chan.

4chan is an anonymous image-sharing board. People don't flash the OK sign there. That's something that happens in real life. What happens on 4chan is people sharing images and sometimes telling stories or cracking jokes about those images.

What can happen on 4chan, at best, is a flurry of people posting images allegedly documenting the "habit" - photos of people flashing the sign, accompanied by a story that it's an example of a white supremacist signal. There's no way to vet or corroborate such stories, and no way to verify the provenance of the images.

Without independent corroboration, and without any prior discussion of the OK sign as a white supremacist signal prior to its emergence on 4chan, the most likely explanation is that it is an urban legend that was originated as a hoax on 4chan.

I hesitate to recommend this course of action to anyone, but you should seriously consider spending a couple weeks skimming 4chan, and then see if you think "it happened on 4chan, it's probably true" is a good argument.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:59 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
On the second point, my answer is no. It's like the OK hand sign.
Or the swastika.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
The shoes are ugly. They should be pulled. The end.
And it is disrespectful to the flag to put it on clothing, not that anyone upset by this cares about actually respecting the flag.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:05 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by kedo1981 View Post
If ya want to al historical about it.
1."Betsy Ross flag" {socalled} is adopted as the nation's flag.
2. Former British colonies then became states, which then adopted flags and constitutions. Pennsylvania, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Delaware, forbade slavery in their constitutional documents.
3. From that point on every northern state did also, a major factor in ending slavery.
So isn't the Betsy Ross flag really the flag that helped usher in the end of slavery?
No they didn't. NY had slavery until 1799. And as of 1776 all were slave, Pennsylvania was first to outlaw slavery in 1780.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:11 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How is that different from MacDonald's or KFC offering franchises to bear its name?

I am a business postgrad and Nike was always cited as an example of a company that is little more than its logo. It is a brand and nothing more.
Then there are no electronics companies that count as manufacturers, as they all use CM's. Really most any manufactured good often depends heavily on CM's. Apple and Foxconn as another great example. Does Apple count as a manufacturer or is it just a franchise?
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:24 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They do own a solid product other than just being a logo. You can patent and trademark ideas and inventions.
Of course they don't actually make any of it, they just slap their label on what someone else made.
Quote:
You cannot do the same for fashions and trends. All you can do is slap a 'designer' label on it and then the public are buying your creativity and flair.
The problem here is that these are not nessacarily fashion like cut of a dress this year, there is a lot of engineering that goes into sportswear. See when the swimming suits that cut drag below human skin came out. The fabrics there were certainly patented and thus limited in who could make them.

There is a difference between sportswear and clothing in general and there can be lots of innovations in materials and techniques that can be patented in sportswear. Does this apply to all nike products of course not, but that doesn't change anything.

Quote:
Certainly it can make you very rich if you can create a brand that everybody wants to buy and are willing to pay a premium for your label.
The apple model exactly.
Quote:
Problem with Nike is it is not even a brand merely a logo on goods made all over the world (mostly third world Indonesia and SE Asia) in any number of factories.
Apple again, see the suicide nets at foxxcon making apple products.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:55 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You didn't pay much attention in class, then. Nike designs their products. They don't just buy a container of Fruit of the Loom and replace the logos. Nike supports a half-billion a year in R&D. When they want a new shoe, they design it. They then give it to CMs (contract manufacturers) who produce their product to their specifications. The other model, the one you're confusing with Nike's is OEM (original equipment manufacturing) which is when the manufacturer designs and makes the product and then sells it to marketing or retail companies who put their logo on it. (Think steam irons or blenders... if you look at some of them from the 90s and 00s, they are the same machine/product but with a logo changed from Sunbeam to Salton to Black & Decker...)
And of course even if they are comming out of the same factories and seem identical they might also have some differences, say one specifying brand name bearings vs generic and so on that make seemingly identical products different. The housings might come out of the same molds and the internals might be theoretically identical but one uses higher grade bearings and motors than the other. So even if all the parts are totally interchangeable between two products sold as different brands, coming from the same factory, they might actually be different.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"You know the people who buy special edition Jordans are especially sensitive to references to racism, right?"

"Our market research shows that the main customer base for these shoes doesn't really see the Ross flag that way."

"They will once I start talking about it."

"That's literally the opposite of what our endorsers are supposed to do."

"So what? Are you going to fire me? Over this? Good luck selling an over-priced fashion statement to your main customer base ever again."

"... We'll pull the shoe."

"That's what I thought."

I'm pretty sure Nike is counting the days until Kaepernick is no longer relevant, and they can drop his contract.
Kaepernick is relevant?
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:10 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Kaepernick is relevant?
Figure it out.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course they don't actually make any of it, they just slap their label on what someone else made.


The problem here is that these are not nessacarily fashion like cut of a dress this year, there is a lot of engineering that goes into sportswear. See when the swimming suits that cut drag below human skin came out. The fabrics there were certainly patented and thus limited in who could make them.

There is a difference between sportswear and clothing in general and there can be lots of innovations in materials and techniques that can be patented in sportswear. Does this apply to all nike products of course not, but that doesn't change anything.



The apple model exactly.


Apple again, see the suicide nets at foxxcon making apple products.
No, not really because Apple has exclusive rights to its products.

There is nothing unique about clothing or fashion. All you an do is put your label on it and that's fine, that works as a proper traditional business.

That is a big difference from being a mere logo with any number of factories in 70 countries int he EPZ zones which you have no control over (and prefer it that way because then you would have to do something about the child labour sweat shops [for example the children aged 12 making footballs in Pakistan]). Of course, as soon as these practices are exposed, the big name sportswear guys take a step backwards.

Quote:
In Sialkot, more than 10,000 children have been taken out of stitching centers, where they worked hours each day hunched over a football wedged between their knees while forcing three-inch (7.5 centimeter) long needles through thick leather, earning the equivalent of a few cents per ball.

Football manufacturers have phased out children working in stitching centers under a 1997 agreement with the ILO and FIFA, football's governing body.

Manufacturers in Sialkot have set up registered stitching centers where no child 14 or under can work. Major buyers like Adidas and Nike require manufacturers to verify their balls have not been made using child labor.
This happened after a press outcry and indicates they could not have given a toss before.

But of course we are not discussing ethics here or unfair practice the issue is: is it fair to call Nike's core business selling a logo? I say it is.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Right on cue, MSNBC finds someone to compare the Betsy Ross flag to the swastika or a burning cross.

I'm sure my ultra-liberal dad would be horrified to hear that; he proudly flew one with the 13 stars and 1776 in the middle of them.
I hope seeing the original American flag as racist isn't something that catches on. If racist groups have co-opted it, that's unfortunate, but it's not like the Confederate flag, which was the symbol of a rebellion whose primary purpose was the preservation of slavery. I suppose you could see any flag used before the civil war as a "reminder of slavery", but all of them differ from the currently used flag only in the number and arrangement of stars in the corner.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:22 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I haven't seen any evidence that I was. The only evidence provided was by me, and it shows that I'm right. If the habit originally began at 4chan, I don't know, but in that case it was not as a hoax. Thus, saying that the "ok" sign being a white supremacist signal was started as a hoax is unevidenced.

The alt-right wants you to think they're joking. They want especially centrists to belive this. They know leftists see through their charade, but as long as they can make centrists believe leftists are out of their minds for thinking something so benign as an "ok"-sign is a nazi-symbol, the alt-right have won.

In short, the joke here is making centrists believe leftists are falsely seeing nazis everywhere, when in fact, there are nazis everywhere.
You said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

A couple of scenarios seem the most likely and they both contradict any reasonable definition of "long before".

1. 4chan depicted smug Pepe with a Trump okay handsign in 2015 and it was adopted by the alt-right within days or weeks (this is how long it might take for alt-righters to appear at conferences, protests, rallies, or elsewhere and then for pictures of them using the handsign to appear online).

2. The alt-right adopted the okay handsign in 2015 and it was adopted by 4chan within minutes or hours once pictures of alt-righters using it began to appear online (4chan siezes on cultural phenomena and evolves very quickly).

Do you concede that the alt-right okay handsign was adopted by Malik Obama (Barack Obama's half-brother), Milo Yiannapolis (half-Jewish and married to a black man), and Richard Spencer and his ilk around the same time that smug Pepe began to be portrayed with the Trump okay handsign on 4chan?

Regardless of the question above, how do you distinguish between what is and isn't "a joke on 4-chan"? (Your conspicuous misspelling of 4chan suggests to me that you are not well-acquainted with 4chan culture)

Are you saying that the 2017 White Power 4chan post is a joke but smug Pepe with an okay handsign is serious?

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Old 10th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I haven't seen any evidence that I was. The only evidence provided was by me, and it shows that I'm right. If the habit originally began at 4chan, I don't know, but in that case it was not as a hoax. Thus, saying that the "ok" sign being a white supremacist signal was started as a hoax is unevidenced.

The alt-right wants you to think they're joking. They want especially centrists to belive this. They know leftists see through their charade, but as long as they can make centrists believe leftists are out of their minds for thinking something so benign as an "ok"-sign is a nazi-symbol, the alt-right have won.

In short, the joke here is making centrists believe leftists are falsely seeing nazis everywhere, when in fact, there are nazis everywhere.
Nazis being anybody who is not far to the left as you are.
Of course you still believe "from each according to his abilities,toi each according to his needs" which has proven to be a disasterous failure whenever it has been tried.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

Apple again, see the suicide nets at foxxcon making apple products.
...in 2010.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:28 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I hope seeing the original American flag as racist isn't something that catches on. If racist groups have co-opted it, that's unfortunate, but it's not like the Confederate flag, which was the symbol of a rebellion whose primary purpose was the preservation of slavery. I suppose you could see any flag used before the civil war as a "reminder of slavery", but all of them differ from the currently used flag only in the number and arrangement of stars in the corner.
I have long maintained that the hostility to commonly accepted symbols of patriotism has badly hurt the left. It might appeal to a small group of revolutionary wannabes, but is kryptonite to the general public.
I guess the idea is that Amereica is and always has been hopelessly corrupt, and only the glorious People's Revolution can redeem it by turning the US in the People's Republic of America,(the Howard Zinn thesis ) but that has about as much chance of happening as a snowball in hell.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:41 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
You said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

A couple of scenarios seem the most likely and they both contradict any reasonable definition of "long before".

1. 4chan depicted smug Pepe with a Trump okay handsign in 2015 and it was adopted by the alt-right within days or weeks (this is how long it might take for alt-righters to appear at conferences, protests, rallies, or elsewhere and then for pictures of them using the handsign to appear online).

2. The alt-right adopted the okay handsign in 2015 and it was adopted by 4chan within minutes or hours once pictures of alt-righters using it began to appear online (4chan siezes on cultural phenomena and evolves very quickly).

Do you concede that the alt-right okay handsign was adopted by Malik Obama (Barack Obama's half-brother), Milo Yiannapolis (half-Jewish and married to a black man), and Richard Spencer and his ilk around the same time that smug Pepe began to be portrayed with the Trump okay handsign on 4chan?
Is there some reason you keep pointing out Malik Obama as Barack's half brother, and Milo Yiannapolis's ethinic background and marital status? Do any of those things disqualify someone from being alt-right? Is there any question that Spencer and Yiannapolis are alt-right if not white supremacisists?

Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Regardless of the question above, how do you distinguish between what is and isn't "a joke on 4-chan"? (Your conspicuous misspelling of 4chan suggests to me that you are not well-acquainted with 4chan culture)

Are you saying that the 2017 White Power 4chan post is a joke but smug Pepe with an okay handsign is serious?
Since we have evidence of alt-right people using ok to mean white power a full 2 years before the 4chan "joke" post, how is this not evidence that it's use as a white power symbol existed before 4chan's proposal?
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