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Old 10th July 2019, 11:45 AM   #161
ahhell
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Old US flag to be put on a shoe by shoe company - Meh!

2. Shoe pulled from sale because someone complained it was a racist symbol - Meh!

3 - Conservatives pearl-clutching over 1 and 2 above - Meh2!

It must be a ******* slow news day if this is even in the news, let alone a headline!!!


PS: It won't even cause the slightest bump in Nike's bottom line.
A slight bump at least, all those shoes they produced and won't sell must have cost something.

Pretty much everything about this is stupid. It will play into Trumps hands and the right wing narrative regarding SJW types over sensitivity though. Good job Colin for setting back your cause, even if incrementally.

He really just isn't a great spokesperson for either Nike or BLM.

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Sorry - Theo was maybe more of a sneaker head.
Personally, I think Theo was a better punch line as he would be an even worse judge of sweater vests than Cliff.

Last edited by ahhell; 10th July 2019 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:30 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Is there some reason you keep pointing out Malik Obama as Barack's half brother, and Milo Yiannapolis's ethinic background and marital status? Do any of those things disqualify someone from being alt-right? Is there any question that Spencer and Yiannapolis are alt-right if not white supremacisists?
Per post #119: "I think the development of the okay hand sign into a white supremacist gesture and a representation of the letters WP (White Power) and influence from 4chan is a bit more complex."

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Since we have evidence of alt-right people using ok to mean white power a full 2 years before the 4chan "joke" post, how is this not evidence that it's use as a white power symbol existed before 4chan's proposal?
Do you deny that Pepe began to be depicted with a Trump okay handsign in 2015? Do you deny the influence of 4chan on the alt-right, and perhaps vice versa, prior to 2017?

There does not appear to be any evidence of the okay handsign having a white supremacist or alt-right connotation prior to 2015. I am proposing that the alt-right and 4chan jokes were fundamentally intertwined all along.

Last edited by Scopedog; 10th July 2019 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:23 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, not really because Apple has exclusive rights to its products.

There is nothing unique about clothing or fashion. All you an do is put your label on it and that's fine, that works as a proper traditional business.
And that would be true in many cases, but with sports goods there is actual innovation and patents and hence exclusive products. If you wanted to make it about a pure fashion house that would be a perfect argument but there is more to sporting goods than fashion.
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:24 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
You said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

A couple of scenarios seem the most likely and they both contradict any reasonable definition of "long before".
How long before does it need to be for linear time to come into effect?
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Kaepernick is relevant?
Apparently relevant enough to dictate sneaker decorations.
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:26 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nazis being anybody who is not far to the left as you are.
Of course you still believe "from each according to his abilities,toi each according to his needs" which has proven to be a disasterous failure whenever it has been tried.
Exactly death to the lower classes as a motivation is a fundamental good for society. When people die because their gofundme campaign was $50 short that serves as an object lesson to others to do better on their campaigning if they want to live.
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Old 10th July 2019, 02:02 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How long before does it need to be for linear time to come into effect?
I am requesting evidence that it was a white supremacist gesture before it was a joke on 4chan. I will entertain evidence dated before June 16th 2015 (the day of Trump's announcement).
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Old 11th July 2019, 01:30 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
You said: "The OK hand sign which was used as a white supremacist gesture long before it was made into a joke on 4-chan?"

A couple of scenarios seem the most likely and they both contradict any reasonable definition of "long before".

1. 4chan depicted smug Pepe with a Trump okay handsign in 2015 and it was adopted by the alt-right within days or weeks (this is how long it might take for alt-righters to appear at conferences, protests, rallies, or elsewhere and then for pictures of them using the handsign to appear online).
Fair enough. Not a hoax.

Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
2. The alt-right adopted the okay handsign in 2015 and it was adopted by 4chan within minutes or hours once pictures of alt-righters using it began to appear online (4chan siezes on cultural phenomena and evolves very quickly).
Actually, it was a couple of weeks before the "hoax" post was posted on 4-chan.

Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Do you concede that the alt-right okay handsign was adopted by Malik Obama (Barack Obama's half-brother), Milo Yiannapolis (half-Jewish and married to a black man), and Richard Spencer and his ilk around the same time that smug Pepe began to be portrayed with the Trump okay handsign on 4chan?
I "concede" that it was a alt-right meme, yes. That's pretty much what I've been saying all along. I don't understand why you need to point out who Milo is married to or who Malik's brother is, like they cannot be alt right.

Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Regardless of the question above, how do you distinguish between what is and isn't "a joke on 4-chan"? (Your conspicuous misspelling of 4chan suggests to me that you are not well-acquainted with 4chan culture)
Everything's a joke on 4-chan, and at the same time, nothing is. It's what makes it the preferred forum for Nazis. They hide behind the jokes.

Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Are you saying that the 2017 White Power 4chan post is a joke but smug Pepe with an okay handsign is serious?
Yes and no. I'm saying that it wasn't a hoax, which was the claim.
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Old 11th July 2019, 01:31 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nazis being anybody who is not far to the left as you are.
Of course you still believe "from each according to his abilities,toi each according to his needs" which has proven to be a disasterous failure whenever it has been tried.
Seriously, go away. You obviously have no idea what I believe, nor have you any interest in actually finding out. So take your mischaracterizations and your "enlightened centrist" BS and shove them somewhere.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:31 AM   #170
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So is it still OK for the rest of us to use the OK sign?
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:28 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
I am requesting evidence that it was a white supremacist gesture before it was a joke on 4chan. I will entertain evidence dated before June 16th 2015 (the day of Trump's announcement).
??? How did Trumps announcement cause the OK symbol to become a joke meme about saying "I am a white supremacist" I mean sure it was racist as hell but I don't remember him saying "If you want to laugh at making people think you are a white supremacists use the OK gesture".

I mean really if you want to make people think you are a white supremacist the swastika is a great way to do that already.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:47 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So is it still OK for the rest of us to use the OK sign?
Yep. Anyone not using it in the context of nazis or the alt-right is perfectly ok to use it. Just like in real life, things aren't always binary.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:19 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Per post #119: "I think the development of the okay hand sign into a white supremacist gesture and a representation of the letters WP (White Power) and influence from 4chan is a bit more complex."
That's not an answer to the question. Malik Obama often uses alt-right terms like "cuck" to deride his opponents, so him using the OK symbol while wearing a MAGA hat certainly seems to be him using it with the alt-right white power meaning. Him tweeting a picture of himself as Pepe the Frog in a MAGA hat making the OK sign removes all doubt as to what he means by it.

As far as Yiannopolis, didn't he claim to be alt-right? If not, he certainly worked with them and promoted them.

Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
Do you deny that Pepe began to be depicted with a Trump okay handsign in 2015? Do you deny the influence of 4chan on the alt-right, and perhaps vice versa, prior to 2017?

There does not appear to be any evidence of the okay handsign having a white supremacist or alt-right connotation prior to 2015. I am proposing that the alt-right and 4chan jokes were fundamentally intertwined all along.
The famous 4chan "proof" that this was a hoax was from 2017. Why does evidence of its use from years earlier not disprove the claim that it was a 4chan hoax?
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:09 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yep. Anyone not using it in the context of nazis or the alt-right is perfectly ok to use it. Just like in real life, things aren't always binary.
I think it may be a rude gesture in some countries.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:11 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it may be a rude gesture in some countries.
It is. Back in the '90s, prior to deployment, we were cautioned not to use the gesture (as well as several others) in the Mid-East and Africa.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:15 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's like the OK hand sign.
Speaking only for myself, I'm way less concerned about giving up the "OK" hand sign than giving up fundamental symbols of Americanism.
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Old 12th July 2019, 04:51 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that would be true in many cases, but with sports goods there is actual innovation and patents and hence exclusive products. If you wanted to make it about a pure fashion house that would be a perfect argument but there is more to sporting goods than fashion.

I agree with your overall premise. But it's not even true to think that "pure fashion houses" can be nothing more than a logo.

As FMW and I have separately pointed out, a large proportion of apparel companies place their manufacturing operations in areas with cheaper labour costs (especially, of course, South-East Asia and East Asia). And more often than not, these companies will not actually own those manufacturing operations - instead, they contract out the manufacturing to a locally-owned company.

BUT......

This is tremendously different from Vixen's core assertion that a company such as Nike simply buys any old "white label" apparel, sticks a Nike swoosh on it, and sells it as Nike product. What actually happens is that Nike designs the apparel itself, then sends through the designs plus contract terms (including quality assurances, production quotas, and of course pricing) to its (eg) Chinese suppliers, and it receives back finished goods. In addition, a company such as Nike will constantly liaise with its contract manufacturers to try to ensure a fruitful and profitable longer-term relationship.

I can also guarantee you that many, many "pure fashion houses" conduct their business in a very similar way. And it doesn't make Calvin Klein jeans any less than CK product if they are made in a factory in Asia that's not owned by CK. CK will be demanding from its manufacturers a product produced to its own design and specifications - in the case of jeans, for example, CK will almost certainly specify premium weave denim cloth, extra-tough stitching, reliable and strong riveting, and so on. Because CK knows that its potential customers for jeans expect CK jeans to be superior to supermarket-own-brand jeans, or even jeans by the likes of Levi's or Wrangler.

So CK is far more than a logo, wherever its apparel is actually made. It's a brand, and that brand carries with it a set of perceived brand values (which are obv different for every individual potential customer, but which fall into general categories such as product quality and longevity, the brand affiliation with luxury and celebrity, the "coolness" of the brand, etc). But CK knows very well - as does Nike - that if the quality of its product falls consistently below the high standards expected by its customers, it will suffer accordingly. And that's one of the reasons why the sorts of contracts that the likes of Nike or CK draw up for overseas manufacturing contractors are eye-wateringly tough and extremely specific in every detail possible.

Neither Nike nor CK (nor pretty much any prestige apparel company which chooses to contract manufacturing offshore in this way) simply says to its overseas manufacturers something like "Oh, send us through 10,000 pairs of jeans (or sweat tops, or whatever) from your stock room - anything you've got will be fine". And this appears to have been the central misunderstanding underpinning Vixen's original claim.
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Old 12th July 2019, 05:30 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
A slight bump at least, all those shoes they produced and won't sell must have cost something.

Pretty much everything about this is stupid. It will play into Trumps hands and the right wing narrative regarding SJW types over sensitivity though. Good job Colin for setting back your cause, even if incrementally.
More likely, few people will notice, and fewer will care. I do find it amusing, though, that Dolt 45 and his sycophants would accuse someone else of being "thin-skinned", given the extended tantrums they usually throw over things like #Oscarssowhite or, various sports teams refusing to visit the plainly white supremacist president, or for that matter, Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem.

Quote:
He really just isn't a great spokesperson for either Nike or BLM.
He's not a spokesman for BLM at all - although they do tend to support his charity work and his kneeling to draw attention to the issue of police violence. As for Nike, he seems to have done them well.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:47 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Everything's a joke on 4-chan, and at the same time, nothing is. It's what makes it the preferred forum for Nazis. They hide behind the jokes.
Its probably where the Racist-in-Chief go the idea from!
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Old 13th July 2019, 03:47 AM   #180
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Nike are already gravely disrespecting the flag by printing it onto shoes.
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Old Yesterday, 06:11 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Nike are already gravely disrespecting the flag by printing it onto shoes.
I do find it ironic that folks consider it patriotic to were the flag as clothing. I'm particularly amused and mildly offended by the use of flag motiffs on towells and shorts/underwear. You know, cause there's no better way to display your patriotism than slapping a flag across your ass.

Last edited by ahhell; Yesterday at 07:26 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I do find it ironic that folks consider it patriotic to were the flag as clothing. I'm particularly amused and mildly offended by the use of flag motiffs on towells and shorts/underwear. You know, cause there's know better way to display your patriotism than slapping a flag across your ass.
Wearing a literal flag is different from printing the same pattern on things that are not flags.
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Old Yesterday, 07:27 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Nike are already gravely disrespecting the flag by printing it onto shoes.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wearing a literal flag is different from printing the same pattern on things that are not flags.
Still don't see how its a demonstration of respect to slap a flag motiff across your ass. Still seem disrespectful to me regardless of it being a literal flag or not.
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Old Yesterday, 07:35 AM   #184
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Once I saw a lady at the beach in a flag bikini bottom and there was enough room to add another hundred states to the union!
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Old Yesterday, 07:43 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wearing a literal flag is different from printing the same pattern on things that are not flags.
What is a "literal flag" if not a piece of cloth with the appropriate design on it?

"It's not a flag, it's a towel!"
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Old Yesterday, 09:38 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What is a "literal flag" if not a piece of cloth with the appropriate design on it?

"It's not a flag, it's a towel!"
Well the nazis had a way of ritually blessing flags by touching them to the Blood Flag of the martyrs for the beer hall putsch. Of course other than the rapidly changed souvenir congress flags I don't know of any such ritual blessing for american flags that would separate them from pieces of cloth with a flag image on them.

I do wonder what the difference between a real flag and just something with a flag image on it is. Like the little plastic ones on grave markers for veterans, are those flags or flag colored objects?
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Old Yesterday, 12:17 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I agree with your overall premise. But it's not even true to think that "pure fashion houses" can be nothing more than a logo.

As FMW and I have separately pointed out, a large proportion of apparel companies place their manufacturing operations in areas with cheaper labour costs (especially, of course, South-East Asia and East Asia). And more often than not, these companies will not actually own those manufacturing operations - instead, they contract out the manufacturing to a locally-owned company.

BUT......

This is tremendously different from Vixen's core assertion that a company such as Nike simply buys any old "white label" apparel, sticks a Nike swoosh on it, and sells it as Nike product. What actually happens is that Nike designs the apparel itself, then sends through the designs plus contract terms (including quality assurances, production quotas, and of course pricing) to its (eg) Chinese suppliers, and it receives back finished goods. In addition, a company such as Nike will constantly liaise with its contract manufacturers to try to ensure a fruitful and profitable longer-term relationship.

I can also guarantee you that many, many "pure fashion houses" conduct their business in a very similar way. And it doesn't make Calvin Klein jeans any less than CK product if they are made in a factory in Asia that's not owned by CK. CK will be demanding from its manufacturers a product produced to its own design and specifications - in the case of jeans, for example, CK will almost certainly specify premium weave denim cloth, extra-tough stitching, reliable and strong riveting, and so on. Because CK knows that its potential customers for jeans expect CK jeans to be superior to supermarket-own-brand jeans, or even jeans by the likes of Levi's or Wrangler.

So CK is far more than a logo, wherever its apparel is actually made. It's a brand, and that brand carries with it a set of perceived brand values (which are obv different for every individual potential customer, but which fall into general categories such as product quality and longevity, the brand affiliation with luxury and celebrity, the "coolness" of the brand, etc). But CK knows very well - as does Nike - that if the quality of its product falls consistently below the high standards expected by its customers, it will suffer accordingly. And that's one of the reasons why the sorts of contracts that the likes of Nike or CK draw up for overseas manufacturing contractors are eye-wateringly tough and extremely specific in every detail possible.

Neither Nike nor CK (nor pretty much any prestige apparel company which chooses to contract manufacturing offshore in this way) simply says to its overseas manufacturers something like "Oh, send us through 10,000 pairs of jeans (or sweat tops, or whatever) from your stock room - anything you've got will be fine". And this appears to have been the central misunderstanding underpinning Vixen's original claim.
Calvin Klein is not just a logo, it is a recognised and well-known fashion designer. A 'CK' sewn onto a shirt, glasses or perfume parfum might be as pretentious as hell but it's a real brand in the true sense. Nike is just a logo, even if it window dresses itself as something else.
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Old Yesterday, 12:26 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Calvin Klein is not just a logo, it is a recognised and well-known fashion designer. A 'CK' sewn onto a shirt, glasses or perfume parfum might be as pretentious as hell but it's a real brand in the true sense. Nike is just a logo, even if it window dresses itself as something else.
Except that it isn't as it's patents show. Calvin doesn't do anything that gets patent protection as innovation he is just some guy who says what is and isn't cool. Hence why his designs can get knocked off and it is all legal while taking them from Nike violates the law.

Hell some brands like Craftsman have stuff that is just a relabel of an existing product as well as ones get specifications added on component quality and entire new designs in house.

Manufacturing is complex and Nike is further from being just a logo than Calvin Klein.
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