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Tags Australia issues , christian persecution , Tim Costello

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Old 11th July 2019, 04:21 AM   #81
psionl0
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You are representing my statement that "I will staunchly defend my right to protect my business interests" as "I force prospective employees to sign contracts limiting what they could say outside of work?"
I have already shown with quotes that this is exactly what you are doing. And what a private individual does outside of your business doesn't affect your business interests but that doesn't stop you saying "SIGN!!!"

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't force anyone to sign anything.
That's exactly the same crap that the Howard government tried with its "work choices" legislation. "Nobody is being 'forced' to sign anything".
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't know what other term to use when somebody makes it their mission to stamp out all politically incorrect speech even if it means side stepping the law.
Since we seem to be talking mainly about fallacies, that is definitely a straw man. Nobody on this thread has said they want to stamp out all politically incorrect speech. That's a gross misrepresentation of smatycooky's statement.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:17 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Since we seem to be talking mainly about fallacies, that is definitely a straw man. Nobody on this thread has said they want to stamp out all politically incorrect speech. That's a gross misrepresentation of smartcooky's statement.
Of course it is.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:23 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have already shown with quotes that this is exactly what you are doing. And what a private individual does outside of your business doesn't affect your business interests but that doesn't stop you saying "SIGN!!!"


That's exactly the same crap that the Howard government tried with its "work choices" legislation. "Nobody is being 'forced' to sign anything".
Well whatever. Israel Folau did sign a contract with Rugby Australia and he was found to have breached their code of conduct, which is almost certainly a breach of his contract (obviously, I haven't read it, but clauses saying you will adhere to the code of conduct are normal). As a consequence, Rugby Australia terminated his contract, as is their right. It went to tribunal, their decision was upheld.

Nobody at this point has persecuted anybody, at least, not in my opinion. Folau argues that Rugby Australia has infringed on his religious freedom, but what he is really saying is that his religion should absolve him of being subject to some of his contractual conditions. He's arguing that his religion should give him a privilege.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:30 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have already shown with quotes that this is exactly what you are doing.
And I have shown you, repeatedly, that it is NOT what I am doing!

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And what a private individual does outside of your business doesn't affect your business interests
It does if their behaviour attacks, insults or demeans any part of my clientele, and if their attack is no protected minorities IT WILL!!!!!

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's exactly the same crap that the Howard government tried with its "work choices" legislation. "Nobody is being 'forced' to sign anything".
I don't give a fat rat's arse what Howard did or didn't do. What I can tell you is that

1. I have had essentially the same contract for 20 years.
2. My solicitor says its legal.
3. I encourage prospective employees to have a solicitor look at it before they sign (some do that and some don't bother)
4. Over 20 years I have employed several dozen people
5. Not one has ever, EVER come back and said they won't sign the contract or that they were unhappy with that clause
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:38 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Well whatever. Israel Folau did sign a contract with Rugby Australia and he was found to have breached their code of conduct, which is almost certainly a breach of his contract (obviously, I haven't read it, but clauses saying you will adhere to the code of conduct are normal). As a consequence, Rugby Australia terminated his contract, as is their right. It went to tribunal, their decision was upheld.

Nobody at this point has persecuted anybody, at least, not in my opinion. Folau argues that Rugby Australia has infringed on his religious freedom, but what he is really saying is that his religion should absolve him of being subject to some of his contractual conditions. He's arguing that his religion should give him a privilege.
THIS

Furthermore, if Rugby Australia were to allow him to go on his homophobic rants unpunished, they themselves could be in very big trouble with the international governing body... World Rugby.

That body has regulations, and one of them is WR Regulation 20

Rugby Union is a sport that internationally prides itself on inclusiveness. That means all races, creeds and colours, all ethnicities and nationalities, regardless of sexuality or religion.

WR REGULATION 20. MISCONDUCT AND CODE OF CONDUCT

20.3 For the purposes of these Regulations Relating to the Game, “Misconduct” shall mean any conduct, behaviour, statements and/or practices on or off the playing enclosure during or in connection with a Match or otherwise, that is unsporting and/or cheating and/or insulting and/or unruly and/or ill-disciplined and/or that brings or has the potential to bring the Game and/or any of its constituent bodies, World Rugby and/or its appointed personnel or commercial partners and/or Match Officials and/or judicial personnel into disrepute.

20.4 While it is not possible to provide a definitive and exhaustive list of the types of conduct, behaviour, statements or practices that may amount to Misconduct under these Regulations, by way of illustration, each of the following types of conduct, behaviour, statements or practices however or wheresoever undertaken are examples of and constitute Misconduct:

(c) acts or statements that are, or conduct that is, discriminatory by reason of religion, race, sex, sexual orientation, disability, colour or national or ethnic origin;​
All Rugby contracts contain clauses as to player conduct, and these clauses, by WR Regulation, must comply with WR Regulation 20. You don't need to see his contract to know that it will contain a compliant code of conduct clause. It will either have a direct clause which reiterates the wording of Regulation 20, or they will have a reference something like, "...the player must comply with all WR regulations"

You also do not have to be Einstein to see that what he did was a direct violation of WR Regulation 20.4 (c)

Players understand fully that they are restricted as to what they are allowed to say to the media and on social media.This is not the first time Folau has run afoul of Regulation 20, and he was warned that time that if he did so again, his contract would be at risk. He is the engineer of his own demise.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:45 AM   #87
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Seems certain strains of Christianity love playing the "persecuted peoples" card. Reminds me of T-shirts I used to see a lot years ago with a big cross on it and the words "This shirt is illegal in 51 countries", as if the persecution of Christians in some regressive hellhole had any relevance in a country where Christianity has been culturally dominate for centuries.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:54 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems certain strains of Christianity love playing the "persecuted peoples" card. Reminds me of T-shirts I used to see a lot years ago with a big cross on it and the words "This shirt is illegal in 51 countries", as if the persecution of Christians in some regressive hellhole had any relevance in a country where Christianity has been culturally dominate for centuries.
Christians are finding that their churches are no longer the powerful institutions they used to be. The masses have woke up, and realised they don't need to obey the church or believe in magical sky daddies into order to lead a good life. Christians used to be able to insult and demean, with impunity, non-Christians and those they held to be "ungodly sinners" such as gays and atheists, but they are slowly coming to realise that the good old days are gone, and that the public at large won't tolerate their misogyny, their homophobia and their other malarkey any more.

They perceive all this change as religious persecution.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:56 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Furthermore, if Rugby Australia . . . .
I have no problem with Rugby Australia or the Wallabies letting Folau go over his religious rants.

But I doubt that your business is anywhere near that public.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:09 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems certain strains of Christianity love playing the "persecuted peoples" card. Reminds me of T-shirts I used to see a lot years ago with a big cross on it and the words "This shirt is illegal in 51 countries", as if the persecution of Christians in some regressive hellhole had any relevance in a country where Christianity has been culturally dominate for centuries.
Persecution is part of the religion. Many persecuted heroes are in the Bible, the biggest one, Jesus of course.

Persecution and fear mongering are part of the propaganda scheme that keeps the flock flocking.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have no problem with Rugby Australia or the Wallabies letting Folau go over his religious rants.

But I doubt that your business is anywhere near that public.
So instead of the principles smartcookie is basing his argument on, you have decided they only apply to the employers you deem qualified?

How does the law in New Zealand spell that out? Or in any country that has such laws on the books?
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:05 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So instead of the principles smartcookie is basing his argument on, you have decided they only apply to the employers you deem qualified?
Discussed ages ago.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How does the law in New Zealand spell that out? Or in any country that has such laws on the books?
I don't know about employment laws in New Zealand.
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Old 11th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have no problem with Rugby Australia or the Wallabies letting Folau go over his religious rants.

But I doubt that your business is anywhere near that public.
So you favour one law for the rich and famous, and another, different law for the rest of us.

FYI, laws are only fair if they are applied equally and without favour to everyone.

And no, my business is not a "world famous" one, but it is well known in my community. Most of my clientele are also local, I am on first name basis with many of them as are my staff, and we are also well known in the local area.

A staff member turning out to be a rogue racist and bigot would be very bad.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't know about employment laws in New Zealand.
Well there you go! You finally admit you don't know what you're talking about
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Old 11th July 2019, 01:33 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I assume you mean this part:
Quote:
You have no right to censor what your staff might say as private citizens (even in a public forum) if your business is not identified.
Is that what the law says? ....... apparently not.

So this is your opinion. And my statement:
Quote:
they only apply to the employers you deem qualified?
is exactly relative.


I assume there are some limits for employers who wish to control employee behavior off the job. It is probably unlimited when it comes to controlling offensive speech in one's off hours.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well there you go! You finally admit you don't know what you're talking about
Rubbish. I have already stated that what you are doing is probably legal (for now).

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is that what the law says? ....... apparently not.
You should read further down before rehashing points that others have already made and which I have already answered.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:59 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Christians are finding that their churches are no longer the powerful institutions they used to be. The masses have woke up, and realised they don't need to obey the church or believe in magical sky daddies into order to lead a good life. Christians used to be able to insult and demean, with impunity, non-Christians and those they held to be "ungodly sinners" such as gays and atheists, but they are slowly coming to realise that the good old days are gone, and that the public at large won't tolerate their misogyny, their homophobia and their other malarkey any more.

They perceive all this change as religious persecution.
Loss of privilege is persecution in their world.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:29 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Rubbish. I have already stated that what you are doing is probably legal (for now).

You should read further down before rehashing points that others have already made and which I have already answered.
So what is your point against my saying it was your opinion and not the law?

You admitted it so no one can say it now?
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:28 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So what is your point against my saying it was your opinion and not the law?

You admitted it so no one can say it now?
My point is that you are merely repeating stuff that has already been discussed. I would prefer to discuss any new aspects that you could bring to this thread.
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Old 12th July 2019, 12:05 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
My point is that you are merely repeating stuff that has already been discussed. I would prefer to discuss any new aspects that you could bring to this thread.
And what new aspect is that because from what I read you are not making any new points.
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Old 12th July 2019, 12:07 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And what new aspect is that because from what I read you are not making any new points.
That's because people keep repeating stuff that I have already discussed.
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