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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws , mass shootings , New Zealand incidents , New Zealand issues , shooting incidents

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Old 9th July 2019, 03:38 AM   #1
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New Zealanders are refusing to turn over guns under new law

https://reason.com/2019/07/08/noncom...ontrol-scheme/








Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme
As of last week, only around 700 weapons had been turned over.



Once again, responding to a horrendous crime by inflicting knee-jerk, authoritarian restrictions on innocent people proves to be an ineffective means of convincing people to obey. Specifically, New Zealand's government—which also stepped up censorship and domestic surveillance after bloody attacks on two Christchurch mosques earlier this year—is running into stiff resistance to new gun rules from firearms owners who are slow to surrender now-prohibited weapons and will probably never turn them in.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:43 AM   #2
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Yeah, reliable journal of record.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:07 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yeah, reliable journal of record.
TBF

It is being reported that she is looking a bit low (Though I doubt that number)

Frankly the cash the govt are handing out is a joke and most people are over the initial shock.

If you don't compensate people properly for changing the law on what is legal on gut reaction this stuff happens.

Fast tracked law tends to be bad law.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 9th July 2019, 04:14 AM   #4
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Couple of things to add

The cash they are offering for the guns is bad
Half of accessories no cash
The cash for accessories that qualify a joke
No cash for guns without licences (Surely these are the ones we actually want most? Daahhh)
Gun storage safes you brought for suddenly illegal guns etc is no cash , you are just stuck with a 600 buck steel filing cabinet
Suddenly illegal gun ammo is no cash


And today we find out our police stations can't be trusted to even store the things after a review, when some bloke wandered into a station and walked out with about a dozen
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

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Old 9th July 2019, 04:29 AM   #5
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If they don't hand them over go and get them.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If they don't hand them over go and get them.
Except unless they have "E" licences no one knows who has them.

Having said that, they might be able to get a few from registered sold convertibles from the gun shops.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:23 AM   #7
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The NZ laws are going to be effective regardless if there's not a lot of compliance. Make semiautos illegal and ammo a precious commodity and the masses will soon be squirreling away their illegal arsenals into closets, walls and floorboards and will remain there until their owners either croak or get ratted out. So whether they remain privately held or bought back, those firearms are no longer in circulation.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
The NZ laws are going to be effective regardless if there's not a lot of compliance. Make semiautos illegal and ammo a precious commodity and the masses will soon be squirreling away their illegal arsenals into closets, walls and floorboards and will remain there until their owners either croak or get ratted out. So whether they remain privately held or bought back, those firearms are no longer in circulation.
With the ammo, there is no specific semi auto ammo, so it would still be sold to feed the manual action fire arms.
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Old 9th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
With the ammo, there is no specific semi auto ammo, so it would still be sold to feed the manual action fire arms.
I haven't studied the new restrictions but iirc a "range of ammunition" was at least being discussed and cullenz mentioned illegal ammo up thread. If someone knows of these restrictions please post. I'm at work and gun related stuff triggers the net nanny.

Thanks.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
I haven't studied the new restrictions but iirc a "range of ammunition" was at least being discussed and cullenz mentioned illegal ammo up thread. If someone knows of these restrictions please post. I'm at work and gun related stuff triggers the net nanny.

Thanks.
Well Cullenz list was pretty crazy as it is all based on the idea that shooters only shoot semi auto firearms and not any other. And of course wouldn't transition to allowed firearms in those calibers.

By wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_(..._Amendment_Act

There do not seem to be any caliber restrictions in this at all, so if you get a bolt action rifle in 5.56mm Nato with a magazie of 5 rounds you can use all the rounds you had for your ar-15.

That list is based on the weird idea that shooters are only interested in shooting semi auto and so their shooting kit is useless with out it. This assumption is really weird. Cullenz should read up on the new law and see it does not seem to outlaw any ammunition in any fashion.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:12 AM   #11
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The leftists are probably going to have to go to war to get their guns in Australia and New Zealand. (Which they will regret almost immediately.) They will definitely have to go to war to get our guns in the U.S., just like the Brits tried to do and failed miserably. Although, with the Brits if it hadn't been that it would have been something else.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:20 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
I haven't studied the new restrictions but iirc a "range of ammunition" was at least being discussed and cullenz mentioned illegal ammo up thread. If someone knows of these restrictions please post. I'm at work and gun related stuff triggers the net nanny.

Thanks.
Found the answer:

Simply put, they'll ban any ammo they want.

http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/gove...LMS181212.html
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:22 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Found the answer:

Simply put, they'll ban any ammo they want.

http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/gove...LMS181212.html
Have they actually banned anything?
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If they don't hand them over go and get them.
Do you really think it will be that simple? Would you volunteer for the job?
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:37 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you really think it will be that simple? Would you volunteer for the job?
I don't think it would be as complicated or risky in NZ than it would be in the US.

Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with NZ's love for guns among their citizenry, but I'm overly familiar with it in the US. I would imagine it being much more of a problem here because of "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons than anything.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Have they actually banned anything?
Not that I can see. That's why I'd like to hear it from a kiwi or somebody who's better versed with the subject.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:59 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think it would be as complicated or risky in NZ than it would be in the US.

Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with NZ's love for guns among their citizenry, but I'm overly familiar with it in the US. I would imagine it being much more of a problem here because of "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons than anything.
The "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons took on the Brits and won our independence. They created this country. Their descendents today have a fine pedigree and will keep this country free. Orwell knew this and left us out of Big Brother controlled Oceania in "1984", knowing we were fiercely independent, but the Brits were ripe for the plucking by future leftists. Pretty smart guy, that Orwell.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:14 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons took on the Brits and won our independence. They created this country. Their descendents today have a fine pedigree and will keep this country free. Orwell knew this and left us out of Big Brother controlled Oceania in "1984", knowing we were fiercely independent, but the Brits were ripe for the plucking by future leftists. Pretty smart guy, that Orwell.
Sure fella *pats head*. Run along now.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:22 AM   #19
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Shouldn't be much of a surprise:

https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/faculty_scholarship/439/

Imagining Gun Control in America, Understanding the remainder problem.

Abstract

Gun control in the United States generally has meant some type of supply regulation. Supply restrictions ranging from one-gun-a-month schemes to flat gun bans cannot work without a willingness and ability to reduce total inventory to levels approaching zero ("the supply-side ideal"). This is an impossible feat in a country that already has 300 million guns tightly held by people who think they are uniquely important tools. The average defiance ratio in places that have attempted gun confiscation and registration is 2.6 illegal guns for every legal one.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:38 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you really think it will be that simple? Would you volunteer for the job?
Sign me up!

This is not the USA; we don't have bunches of dumb-**** peckerwoods running around in the hills (being make-believe soldiers), who wouldn't last five minutes in a real shooting war with a real enemy.

In any case, effectively, the simple answer is to control the ammunition supply... guns with no ammo are like cars with no gas; a useless piece of scrap metal. You have to present your licence to buy ammunition, and the purchase is recorded, so we will know who they are and what calibre of firearm they own.

We also have a fine tradition in this country of dobbing law-breakers in to the cops. I know at least a half dozen people with semi-automatic firearms, and if I notice they still have them, I will definitely be dropping the local cops a line. There will be women who will dob their exes in as well.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think it would be as complicated or risky in NZ than it would be in the US.

Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with NZ's love for guns among their citizenry, but I'm overly familiar with it in the US. I would imagine it being much more of a problem here because of "DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!" loons than anything.
We don't have a big gun culture here; gun ownership in this country a not a right, its a privilege; one that can be rescinded. I'm a firearms owner (but I don't own any semi-automatics, just a shotgun for duck and goose shooting, and two bolt action rifles) We do have a hunting culture, but they are predominantly pig hunters who use dogs and knives, not guns.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well Cullenz list was pretty crazy as it is all based on the idea that shooters only shoot semi auto firearms and not any other. And of course wouldn't transition to allowed firearms in those calibers.

By wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_(..._Amendment_Act

There do not seem to be any caliber restrictions in this at all, so if you get a bolt action rifle in 5.56mm Nato with a magazie of 5 rounds you can use all the rounds you had for your ar-15.

That list is based on the weird idea that shooters are only interested in shooting semi auto and so their shooting kit is useless with out it. This assumption is really weird. Cullenz should read up on the new law and see it does not seem to outlaw any ammunition in any fashion.
I never said it did

I just badly worded the point that if someones guns have to be handed in they are left with shedloads of pointless ammo' the govt aren't giving cash for
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:44 PM   #22
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In any case, the OP posted a very one-sided article, full of emotive language and rhetoric from an American pro-gun, right wing source (no surprise there).

Now you can try reading about it from a centre-right source that actually gives you real news, not the propaganda and alternative facts that American conservative media does.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12246561

If you don't want to bother reading the article, here are the highlights (and keep in mind when you read the figures that this is a country of about 4.8 million people, so about the same as Alabama or Louisiana)
  • 3000 firearms that will get no compensation have been marked for collection.
  • 1300 unlawful guns have been seized since March, many from gangs and people without firearms licences.
  • 250 collection events will happen over the next three months
  • 840 firearms had already been handed to police
  • 8000 firearms have been declared for return by their owners via online forms

Under the buyback scheme, only firearms obtained legally by someone with a valid firearms licence will be compensated.

People can hand in any firearms (legally obtained or otherwise) and they won't be prosecuted or have to provide any personal details.

The Police say that the feedback about the gun buyback is 80% positive v 5% negative.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Sign me up!

This is not the USA; we don't have bunches of dumb-**** peckerwoods running around in the hills (being make-believe soldiers), who wouldn't last five minutes in a real shooting war with a real enemy.

In any case, effectively, the simple answer is to control the ammunition supply... guns with no ammo are like cars with no gas; a useless piece of scrap metal. You have to present your licence to buy ammunition, and the purchase is recorded, so we will know who they are and what calibre of firearm they own.

We also have a fine tradition in this country of dobbing law-breakers in to the cops. I know at least a half dozen people with semi-automatic firearms, and if I notice they still have them, I will definitely be dropping the local cops a line. There will be women who will dob their exes in as well.



We don't have a big gun culture here; gun ownership in this country a not a right, its a privilege; one that can be rescinded. I'm a firearms owner (but I don't own any semi-automatics, just a shotgun for duck and goose shooting, and two bolt action rifles) We do have a hunting culture, but they are predominantly pig hunters who use dogs and knives, not guns.
700 guns turned in out of 1.5 million. I would say those numbers would suggest you've underestimated the number of "peckerwoods" living there.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
700 guns turned in out of 1.5 million. I would say those numbers would suggest you've underestimated the number of "peckerwoods" living there.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


I wasn't claiming we had no peckerwoods - we do. I was claiming we have no citizen militias, crazy loons playing soldiers in the backwoods.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Oh, and have a read of post #22
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I never said it did

I just badly worded the point that if someones guns have to be handed in they are left with shedloads of pointless ammo' the govt aren't giving cash for
And again how many people only shoot semi auto rifles and shotguns and not have some manual ones too? How many people are giving up shooting sports because of this?
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:21 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And again how many people only shoot semi auto rifles and shotguns and not have some manual ones too? How many people are giving up shooting sports because of this?
I don't know.

You seem to claim to

So tell us how many.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
700 guns turned in out of 1.5 million. I would say those numbers would suggest you've underestimated the number of "peckerwoods" living there.
The police have said directly that they would prefer people take them to the 200 hundred arranged hand in events rather than taking them to stations.

The events haven't started yet, so it is a bit early to get too overboard on how many peckerwoods are around (not that I know what these even are)
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 9th July 2019, 01:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The police have said directly that they would prefer people take them to the 200 hundred arranged hand in events rather than taking them to stations.

The events haven't started yet, so it is a bit early to get too overboard on how many peckerwoods are around (not that I know what these even are)
Think of it like "douchebag", "dumbass", etc.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
The leftists are probably going to have to go to war to get their guns in Australia and New Zealand. (Which they will regret almost immediately.)
Utter nonsense. Aussie didn't have any trouble when they banned a range of guns after Port Arthur, and there certainly won't be any armed resistance here.

Some people are a bit pissed off about the buyback scheme, but being Kiwis, they'll harden up and come to the party in good time.

I can see why you're keen to lump a mild truculence in with armed resistance, though:

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
They will definitely have to go to war to get our guns in the U.S.
We know.

Luckily, that attitude isn't being exported, so trying to see an ally in Kiwi attitudes to guns won't work.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:01 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Think of it like "douchebag", "dumbass", etc.
No. Peckerwood is used by white supremacists as a nickname for themselves. Aryan Brotherhood call themselves peckerwoods. Most often it is Southern White Supremacist.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:32 PM   #31
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Hmmmm. Now I know what Marvin Berry from Back to the Future was talking about when he said "Who you calling "spook," peckerwood? "

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088763...=ttfc_ql_trv_4

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Old 9th July 2019, 02:44 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No. Peckerwood is used by white supremacists as a nickname for themselves. Aryan Brotherhood call themselves peckerwoods. Most often it is Southern White Supremacist.
I did not know that as we've never used it like that up here.

Duly noted.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:02 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
700 guns turned in out of 1.5 million. I would say those numbers would suggest you've underestimated the number of "peckerwoods" living there.
This translates to saying that New Zealand (and/or smartcooky) has underestimated the number of white supremacists who will not give up their guns.

Peckerwood is an American name, but here it was applied to Kiwi white supremacists. I suppose they are all pretty much the same anyway.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This translates to saying that New Zealand (and/or smartcooky) has underestimated the number of white supremacists who will not give up their guns.

Peckerwood is an American name, but here it was applied to Kiwi white supremacists. I suppose they are all pretty much the same anyway.
Most of the NZ gangs involved with guns (and drugs and a lot of other bad stuff) are Maori and Pacifika bikies. Pretty tough dudes.

The Christchurch killer was a radicalised white supremacist Aussie interloper. He chose NZ to act because their gun laws are (or were) way more lax than in Australia.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No. Peckerwood is used by white supremacists as a nickname for themselves. Aryan Brotherhood call themselves peckerwoods. Most often it is Southern White Supremacist.
Not quite, but close. It didn't start they way... i.e. white supremacists co-oped the term rather than made it up themselves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peckerwood
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:20 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Most of the NZ gangs involved with guns (and drugs and a lot of other bad stuff) are Maori and Pacifika bikies. Pretty tough dudes.
I'm not familiar with NZ gangs and organized crime. Would those guys be classified as anti-white racists or something like "native supremacists"? Anyway, they probably wouldn't give up their guns either.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:23 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not quite, but close.
It is spot on with this context. BB meant white supremacists.

I already knew the history of the name. But nowadays nobody would dare to use it in reference to anything other than white supremacy.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:34 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not familiar with NZ gangs and organized crime. Would those guys be classified as anti-white racists or something like "native supremacists"? Anyway, they probably wouldn't give up their guns either.
Native supremacy in NZ is a thing, but it's not necessarily an armed rebellion thing. There is a level of legitimacy in that it is a stated political goal in some circles rather than a "war" goal for swivel-eyed knuckleheads.

NZ gangs seem to identify more closely with US bikie gangs than any supremacy groups. So the guns are for standovers and occasionally turf-wars. Not for fomenting rebellions.

Thing is, in NZ, huntin', fishin' and shootin' are very popular, both as pastimes and as part of land management. Ask a kiwi about the possum infestations! So guns are common.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:49 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not familiar with NZ gangs and organized crime. Would those guys be classified as anti-white racists or something like "native supremacists"? Anyway, they probably wouldn't give up their guns either.
They'd be the equivalent of the "Black Disciples" in Chicago

NZ gangs are not like US gangs. Armed Police could just walk right in to their gang headquarters and take their guns, and the gangs won't actively resist that.. at least, not if they know what's good for them.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Native supremacy in NZ is a thing, but it's not necessarily an armed rebellion thing. There is a level of legitimacy in that it is a stated political goal in some circles rather than a "war" goal for swivel-eyed knuckleheads.

NZ gangs seem to identify more closely with US bikie gangs than any supremacy groups. So the guns are for standovers and occasionally turf-wars. Not for fomenting rebellions.
I never heard the term bikie, but a quick search says it's the equivalent of America's outlaw motorcycle gangs (bikers). Now here is the thing, in America those biker gangs are predominantly white supremacists. Their daily business is organized crime for profit (mostly drugs but also other profit crimes) but most outlaw biker gangs are peckerwoods.

Your description of the bikies not being war-mongering knuckleheads is also true for our outlaw bikers and other peckerwoods.
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