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Old 14th August 2018, 03:02 PM   #1
The Sparrow
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Pennsylvania priests 'abused thousands of children'

Not even shocking anymore, just disgusting.

Bloody catholic church. It needs to go broke and disappear.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45190355
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:15 PM   #2
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Oh look, more "serious mistakes."
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:30 PM   #3
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Blah blah one should not condemn the church because of the mistakes of some of its members blah blah blah.

How dare this organization speak out on social issues like gay marriage, contraception, right to die and abortion.
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Blah blah one should not condemn the church because of the mistakes of some of its members blah blah blah.

How dare this organization speak out on social issues like gay marriage, contraception, right to die and abortion.
Not to mention the problem includes mass coverups to protect the abusers and the church.
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Old 14th August 2018, 05:51 PM   #5
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I haven't read the article. How many children per priest per day?
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:42 PM   #6
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Apparently, without religion, there would be no morality.....
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Old 15th August 2018, 04:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Apparently, without religion, there would be no morality.....
Welllllllll,
In order to preserve 'free will' I had to create some folks with an innate desire to sexually molest children."
-god
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Old 15th August 2018, 05:06 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I haven't read the article. How many children per priest per day?
What is the accepted rate that makes aiding and abetting it ok?

Bah on average each priest only raped 1/4 of a child per year that makes covering for them and helping them rape more morally acceptable now.

Up Next we evaluate Penn State athletics and the USA figure skating team on a ratio of children raped to wins to see how bad those cover ups really were.
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Old 15th August 2018, 05:26 AM   #9
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Not even surprised anymore, the same thing has happened in Australia, Britain and Ireland, and probably elsewhere.

It's a pity that Hell doesn't exist because these people would surely go there.
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Old 15th August 2018, 06:05 AM   #10
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[cynical mode/]

Well, ...

With news like this it sure is a fortunate that we have such a great and powerful God and such wonderful experts in religion to provide the rest of us poor, miserable, sinning humans with morality!

[/cynical mode]
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Old 15th August 2018, 06:35 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Blah blah one should not condemn the church because of the mistakes of some of its members blah blah blah.
I'm not. I'm condemning it because of the stance of it's leaders.
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Old 15th August 2018, 07:58 AM   #12
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Widespread, systematic coverup to escape public accountability

Only two of 301 "predator priests" could be prosecuted.

Why? According to Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro, there are "weak laws in the commonwealth as it relates to the statute of limitations."1

Breakdown on the number of priests:
  • Grand jury had info on over 400 priests
  • Evidence could corroborate 301 "predator priests"
  • Only about half of 301 still living
  • Each priest put through a statute of limitations test
  • Of 301, only two priests could be charged
There was a pattern of sexual abuse and coverups.

You should watch 6 ABC Action News video interview2 with Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro.

Although the scope of the Pennsylvania grand jury investigation appears to dwarf the scope of the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston sex abuse scandal, my understanding is more priests (5?) were charged in the Boston sexual abuse cases. Compared to two, for Pennsylvania.

Comparison to the 2002, Boston Globe "Spotlight Team" investigation

The Boston Globe "Spotlight Team" did an investigation about child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests in and around Boston. "Spotlight's" 2002 story led to the movie Spotlight.

From the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service winning book, "Betrayal: The Crisis in the Catholic Church"3
Quote:
The team used the archdiocese’s annual directories, which list where priests are assigned, as its compass. The reporters developed a database showing that scores of active priests had inexplicably been removed from parish assignments around the time the victims were receiving settlements

Two significant issues revealed in the Pennsylvania, and Boston, investigations:
  • predatory sexual abuse was kept from becoming public knowledge
  • there was, and is, little-to-no accountability
Sources

[1] Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro speaks with Jim Gardner on Pa. priest sex abuse report. (2018, August 15). Retrieved from 6abc.com

[2] Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro speaks with Jim Gardner on Pa. priest sex abuse report. (2018, August 15). Retrieved from 6abc.com

[3] Globe, Boston. Betrayal: The Crisis in the Catholic Church: The findings of the investigation that inspired the major motion picture Spotlight (p. 6). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.
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Old 15th August 2018, 03:10 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
Only two of 301 "predator priests" could be prosecuted.

Why? According to Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro, there are "weak laws in the commonwealth as it relates to the statute of limitations."1

Breakdown on the number of priests:
  • Grand jury had info on over 400 priests
  • Evidence could corroborate 301 "predator priests"
  • Only about half of 301 still living
  • Each priest put through a statute of limitations test
  • Of 301, only two priests could be charged
There was a pattern of sexual abuse and coverups.

You should watch 6 ABC Action News video interview2 with Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro.

Although the scope of the Pennsylvania grand jury investigation appears to dwarf the scope of the Catholic Archdiocese of Boston sex abuse scandal, my understanding is more priests (5?) were charged in the Boston sexual abuse cases. Compared to two, for Pennsylvania.

Comparison to the 2002, Boston Globe "Spotlight Team" investigation

The Boston Globe "Spotlight Team" did an investigation about child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests in and around Boston. "Spotlight's" 2002 story led to the movie Spotlight.

From the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service winning book, "Betrayal: The Crisis in the Catholic Church"3


Two significant issues revealed in the Pennsylvania, and Boston, investigations:
  • predatory sexual abuse was kept from becoming public knowledge
  • there was, and is, little-to-no accountability
Sources

[1] Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro speaks with Jim Gardner on Pa. priest sex abuse report. (2018, August 15). Retrieved from 6abc.com

[2] Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro speaks with Jim Gardner on Pa. priest sex abuse report. (2018, August 15). Retrieved from 6abc.com

[3] Globe, Boston. Betrayal: The Crisis in the Catholic Church: The findings of the investigation that inspired the major motion picture Spotlight (p. 6). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.
Thanks for the info. Makes me sad.
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Old 15th August 2018, 05:10 PM   #14
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How about prosecuting some of the higher ups, who've been covering this up right up until the present?
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Old 15th August 2018, 06:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
How about prosecuting some of the higher ups, who've been covering this up right up until the present?
That's an excellent question.

I'll call Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro's office and see if he'll take my call, and how he'd answer your question.

It might be too much time passed?

For instance, quote from David DeKok's article for Reuters:
Quote:
“The pattern was abuse, deny and cover up,” Shapiro said, adding that church officials sought to keep abuse allegations quiet long enough so they could no longer be prosecuted under Pennsylvania’s statute of limitations.

Source:

DeKok, David. "Pennsylvania report details decades of sexual abuse by priests." (2018, August 14). Retrieved from reuters.com
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Last edited by Ernie M; 15th August 2018 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Added the statute of limitation issue.
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Old 15th August 2018, 09:04 PM   #16
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The small town where I lived from ages 10 to 18 is in a Pennsylvania diocese. One of the priests on this list was the pastor there for 19 YEARS. Two others spent time at the same church during his tenure. The small city I lived in for the 7 years after that was in the same diocese. The pastor at the church I occasionally attended there is ALSO on the list. Just when I think the whole mess can't get more appalling, another list comes out.
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Old 15th August 2018, 11:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I haven't read the article. How many children per priest per day?
Not satisfied with 1000+ victims and 300+ predator priests?
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Old 16th August 2018, 11:04 AM   #18
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Press Release, and the full grand jury Report

Here are links to a press release, and the full (redacted) Pennsylvania grand jury report. Both are by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General.
  • Press Release1
    Announced highlights of the most comprehensive report on child sex abuse within the church ever produced within our country.
  • Full grand jury report2
    887-paged document detailing the two year investigation into child sex abuse within the Catholic Church as it pertains to six dioceses in Pennsylvania. Names and descriptions are given of the sex offenders and those who concealed them.
Note: You download the Report from the linked webpage.

The grand jury recommended four changes to Pennsylvania law:
  1. Eliminate the criminal statute of limitations for sexually abusing children.
  2. Create a “civil window” so older victims may now sue for damages.
  3. Clarify penalties for a continuing failure to report child abuse.
  4. Specify that Civil Confidentiality Agreements do not cover communications with law enforcement.

Sources:

[1] Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General. (2018, August 14). Attorney General Shapiro Details Findings of 2-Year Grand Jury Investigation into Child Sex Abuse by Catholic Priests in Six Pennsylvania Dioceses. [Press release]. Retrieved from attorneygeneral.gov

[2] Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General. (2018, July 27). Redacted by order of the PA Supreme Court. Report I of the 40th Statewide Investigating Grand Jury. Retrieved from https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/report/
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Old 16th August 2018, 03:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
How about prosecuting some of the higher ups, who've been covering this up right up until the present?

Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Need to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Agreement made somewhere along the line

Please add to the list if I missed something.

I decided not to call Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro to ask why some of the higher ups haven't been prosecuted.
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Old 16th August 2018, 04:30 PM   #20
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You might also wish to mention the exceptions as outlined in this article:

https://cprlaw.com/application-of-th...f-limitations/

ETA: Yes, I know this is specifying medical malpractice, but the information is still sound regarding the tolling (or suspension) of the statue of limitations.

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Old 16th August 2018, 05:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Need to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Agreement made somewhere along the line

Please add to the list if I missed something.

I decided not to call Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro to ask why some of the higher ups haven't been prosecuted.
[*] Working on it.

I hope.

A lot may depend on to what level church officials cooperated or failed to cooperate with the investigation.
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Old 16th August 2018, 05:57 PM   #22
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Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Need to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Agreement made somewhere along the line
  • Fraudulent concealment as an exception to statute of limitations (is this accurate wording?)
  • Working on it; in progress

Please add or correct wording to the list if I missed something.

This list updated August 16, 2018 8:58 p.m. EDT
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Old 16th August 2018, 06:21 PM   #23
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Seal of the confessional, or some other obsolete religious ********.
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Old 16th August 2018, 08:51 PM   #24
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Doing a little more research, it looks like the fraudulent concealment concerns only civil law and not criminal law. The relevant criminal statutes begin chapter 55.42 §5501-5505.

The common mention of tolling of criminal statute of limitations is if the defendant is absent the state for a period of time of more than four months or adopts a false name or something similar to hiding their identiy in some fashion.

Still, it might be worth mentioning the specific statute regarding the SoL as mentioned above.

The attorney general would obviously know what was being talked about, but it would be polite to include it for reference.

Personally, I don't understand if the people involved took action to cover up the crimes in order to not be prosecuted, why the law isn't written to take consideration of those actions.

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Old 17th August 2018, 04:34 AM   #25
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This list updated August 17, 2018 7:35 a.m. EDT

Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Need to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Financial settlement
  • Agreement other than financial
  • Fraudulent concealment as an exception to statute of limitations
  • Case in progress
  • Seal of the Confessional

Please add or correct wording to the list if I missed something.
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Old 17th August 2018, 04:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
This list updated August 17, 2018 7:35 a.m. EDT

Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:
  • Need to prove criminal intent
  • Statute of limitations had passed
  • Case never made it to court
  • Financial settlement
  • Agreement other than financial
  • Fraudulent concealment as an exception to statute of limitations
  • Case in progress
  • Seal of the Confessional

Please add or correct wording to the list if I missed something.
The church influencing public officials?
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Old 17th August 2018, 05:22 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
[b]Possible reasons why Pennsylvania church officials haven't been prosecuted:

Seal of the Confessional
I'm amazed at people who even consider this a possibly valid reason and the fact that a glorified pinkie swear has special status in the law.

And no before anyone even makes the strawman it is not the same/comparable to doctor-patient, lawyer-client, or spousal privilege. (the last of which I also think shouldn't really be a thing.)
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Old 17th August 2018, 07:35 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
The church influencing public officials?
This. Ever watch "The Keepers" on netflix?
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Old 17th August 2018, 10:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm amazed at people who even consider this a possibly valid reason and the fact that a glorified pinkie swear has special status in the law.
But it is which is why they think it does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confes...(United_States)
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Old 17th August 2018, 04:03 PM   #30
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It's good to see the resident religious posters have been rushing here to defend the Catholic Church...

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Old 17th August 2018, 05:29 PM   #31
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It's a total myth....
Quote:
“There is no on-going crisis — it’s a total myth,” Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic anti-defamation organization, said in a claim that was quickly met with scorn and disgust.

“In fact, there is no institution, private or public, that has less of a problem with the sexual abuse of minors today than the Catholic Church,” Donohue wrote in a tweet that linked to a longer statement on the organization’s website.
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Old 17th August 2018, 05:53 PM   #32
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This is really a training problem. I bet, dollars for doughnuts that their Archdioceses has a training program and they train people to inform the level of authority that has historically been the problem. They need to train their people to call the police. This problem won't go away until the janitors, teacher's assistants, teachers, coaches get a thorough training in calling the police. This is easy. Find the point of failure and go around it. It's a basic principle if failure analysis.

The diocese and archdiocese are probably telling employees, volunteers and staff to report abuse to their leaders in the diocese and archdiocese. That's the echelon of command who continually ***** this up. Teach these people to call the police.


There would still be a statue of Joe Paterno at Penn State if they taught their staff to call the police. The worst possible thing you can do here is give the decision making authority to people with an interest in protecting the institution. School principals, athletic directors, executive coaches are not trained to or empowered to investigate sex crimes against children. The police have those people and those authorities. Call them. The Archdiocese in Pennsylvania would not be in the state that it's in if they had just trained their employees to call the police.
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:18 PM   #33
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Okay so (semi-) serious question. Even within the context of it's own belief structure what's the point of your main type of spiritual adviser to be celebrate? How, within the Church's own teachings, does this get them closer to God or make them better spiritual advisers?
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:43 PM   #34
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Just read Bill Donahue's response to the Pennslvania Scandle and just about threw up.
Even the Catholic Heirachy admits there is very serious problem, but not BIll Donahue.
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Old 17th August 2018, 07:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Just read Bill Donahue's response to the Pennslvania Scandle and just about threw up.
Even the Catholic Heirachy admits there is very serious problem, but not BIll Donahue.
The blue-green algae that scums the top of stagnant ponds is repulsed at the mere proximity of Bill Donohue.
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Old 17th August 2018, 08:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so (semi-) serious question. Even within the context of it's own belief structure what's the point of your main type of spiritual adviser to be celebrate? How, within the Church's own teachings, does this get them closer to God or make them better spiritual advisers?
In no way an expert on these matters, but it's my understanding that the reasoning is along the lines of:
1) Jesus was celibate, ergo...
2) Paul seems to have been big on separating oneself from the physical elements of this world in favor of the spiritual elements. Women are a distraction (indubitably!) so avoid that distraction in favor of focusing on what matters. (Maybe Paul just had a hard time getting any?)
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Old 17th August 2018, 11:10 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
In no way an expert on these matters, but it's my understanding that the reasoning is along the lines of:
1) Jesus was celibate, ergo...
2) Paul seems to have been big on separating oneself from the physical elements of this world in favor of the spiritual elements. Women are a distraction (indubitably!) so avoid that distraction in favor of focusing on what matters. (Maybe Paul just had a hard time getting any?)
Property and wealth was passed from father to (usually) legitimate sons.
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Old 18th August 2018, 05:24 AM   #38
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The real reason priests had to be celibate is to stop them having children. If they have no children they can leave everything to the church. This makes the church very wealthy. The advantages to priests abusing children rather than women include
1. They are not likely to get pregnant.
2. Children are not likely to be believed or taken seriously when they report the abuse.
3. Children who are more vulnerable than most other children are easily found.
4. Children are far more defenceless than women. A woman can say no. Some children can be easily bribed with Tender, loving care.
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Old 18th August 2018, 06:01 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The real reason priests had to be celibate is to stop them having children. If they have no children they can leave everything to the church. This makes the church very wealthy. The advantages to priests abusing children rather than women include
1. They are not likely to get pregnant.
2. Children are not likely to be believed or taken seriously when they report the abuse.
3. Children who are more vulnerable than most other children are easily found.
4. Children are far more defenceless than women. A woman can say no. Some children can be easily bribed with Tender, loving care.
To be fair, those concerns are all of the pragmatic sort. ugh. One must also be sexually attracted to children, and willing to act on that. I find it hard to imagine on being attracted to women, but for practical reasons, manually switching that attraction to children.

Apologies if instead you are being ironic/sarcastic and it went whooosh over my thick skull.
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Old 18th August 2018, 06:30 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
To be fair, those concerns are all of the pragmatic sort. ugh. One must also be sexually attracted to children, and willing to act on that. I find it hard to imagine on being attracted to women, but for practical reasons, manually switching that attraction to children.

Apologies if instead you are being ironic/sarcastic and it went whooosh over my thick skull.
Not everyone would pass the desert island test: stranded with someone of your own sex and no hope of rescue, what would you do? Prison sex is a case in point. It depends what's available.
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