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Old 14th March 2019, 11:20 AM   #1
jeffbradt
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I want to reach out to theists amicably

Hi all,

My name is Jeff Bradt. My parents raised me Catholic from infancy, until at age 12 I told my mother there was no god and that I was an atheist. From ages 26 to 38, I belonged to a non-denominational Christian church, and then I went back to atheism in 2008, journeying through agnosticism as I went. Now, I am a very strong atheist: gods are silly concepts to me.

Nonetheless, I want to reach out to believers like my wife, who I married fully knowing she believed in God, and with her fully knowing I was an atheist. We actually enjoy talking about God, and I hope to do the same with other believers as well. I am thinking perhaps starting online would be a good idea. I have been tweeting many atheistic quotes and personal thoughts, as well as following many atheistic Twitter accounts, for a few years now. I very much enjoy that. I hope to blog atheism and naturalism, and to reach people with the message that we atheists are amazing, lovable, kind, compassionate, gentle people. Most of us are not rude to theists online, but they see the rudeness, especially as the rest of us often do not speak up. I want to be one of the ones who speak up. Those whom no one has exposed to atheism, agnosticism and skepticism, need exposure to these things so that they are aware of our true, wonderful nature.

In addition to exposing others to our non-theism, we can learn more about theists as well, and get to understand them progressively better.

I look forward to engaging input from you here on the forum, and I wish you the best in the meantime!
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:22 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Hi all,

My name is Jeff Bradt. My parents raised me Catholic from infancy, until at age 12 I told my mother there was no god and that I was an atheist.
You're like a younger version of me. Not quite as handsome, mind you.

Quote:
Now, I am a very strong atheist: gods are silly concepts to me.
They do make great stories, mind you.

Quote:
Nonetheless, I want to reach out to believers like my wife, who I married fully knowing she believed in God,
My wife is Japanse. Her beliefs are more.... asian.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:32 AM   #3
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cool welcome to the site.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:41 AM   #4
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Hi there ! You are not allowed to be rude to people on this forum, only to be critical of their views. In my case I believe in God but not most religions. I believe God remains above human affairs and does not intervene. Because the divine plan is a perfect system for us to evolve and grow. So I am a deist not a theist.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:44 AM   #5
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I don't believe in god, but if I did it would either be in some alien scientists creating a universe in a lab and otherwise not being able to affect specific events, or a pantheon of lovecraftian demiurges weaving realities just to mess with their inhabitants.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:04 PM   #6
ynot
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Hi there ! You are not allowed to be rude to people on this forum, only to be critical of their views.
Some people take any criticism of their views/beliefs as being rude ("Respect my beliefs").

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In my case I believe in God but not most religions.
Then you are a theist. Theism is belief in god(s), not belief in religion(s).

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe God remains above human affairs and does not intervene. Because the divine plan is a perfect system for us to evolve and grow.
That's also what you merely believe.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So I am a deist not a theist.
A deist is a theist. Deism is a sub-category of theism (belief in a god or gods).

Some may claim this is a rude post.
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Last edited by ynot; 14th March 2019 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:11 PM   #7
ynot
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Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Hi all,

My name is Jeff Bradt. My parents raised me Catholic from infancy, until at age 12 I told my mother there was no god and that I was an atheist. From ages 26 to 38, I belonged to a non-denominational Christian church, and then I went back to atheism in 2008, journeying through agnosticism as I went. Now, I am a very strong atheist: gods are silly concepts to me.

Nonetheless, I want to reach out to believers like my wife, who I married fully knowing she believed in God, and with her fully knowing I was an atheist. We actually enjoy talking about God, and I hope to do the same with other believers as well. I am thinking perhaps starting online would be a good idea. I have been tweeting many atheistic quotes and personal thoughts, as well as following many atheistic Twitter accounts, for a few years now. I very much enjoy that. I hope to blog atheism and naturalism, and to reach people with the message that we atheists are amazing, lovable, kind, compassionate, gentle people. Most of us are not rude to theists online, but they see the rudeness, especially as the rest of us often do not speak up. I want to be one of the ones who speak up. Those whom no one has exposed to atheism, agnosticism and skepticism, need exposure to these things so that they are aware of our true, wonderful nature.

In addition to exposing others to our non-theism, we can learn more about theists as well, and get to understand them progressively better.

I look forward to engaging input from you here on the forum, and I wish you the best in the meantime!
Welcome to this forum, and good luck with 'amicably speaking up' without it being taken as being rude/insulting by some theists .
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Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
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Last edited by ynot; 14th March 2019 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:18 PM   #8
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Then you are a theist. Theism is belief in god(s), not belief in religion(s).

A deist is a theist. Deism is a sub-category of theism.
That's not what it says in Richard Dawkins book, 'the God delusion'
It says theists believe in a God that intervenes in his creation, but deists believe God started the universe, and does not involve himself in human affairs.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Welcome to this forum, and good luck with 'amicably speaking up' without it being taken as being rude/insulting by some theists .
My understanding was that the "amicably speaking up" referred to speaking up when atheists were being rude.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:27 PM   #10
theprestige
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Welcome to this forum. In addition to ynot's warning, I would add that a lot of the atheists here come across as extremely rude and insulting. I would actually recommend *not* engaging with any theists here. Even if you're amicable yourself, threads here are free-for-alls, and you'll find that some folks view theists as "chew toys" to argue with.

My heartfelt advice to anyone who wants to have an amicable debate with theists is this:
1. Log out of this forum.
2. Go find an amicable theist.
3. Take them out to coffee.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:33 PM   #11
ynot
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
That's not what it says in Richard Dawkins book, 'the God delusion'
It says theists believe in a God that intervenes in his creation, but deists believe God started the universe, and does not involve himself in human affairs.
So what? I don't think you quote Richard Dawkins correctly, regardless he isn't my "god", is he yours? Read a dictionary.
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Last edited by ynot; 14th March 2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Welcome to this forum. In addition to ynot's warning, I would add that a lot of the atheists here come across as extremely rude and insulting. I would actually recommend *not* engaging with any theists here. Even if you're amicable yourself, threads here are free-for-alls, and you'll find that some folks view theists as "chew toys" to argue with.

My heartfelt advice to anyone who wants to have an amicable debate with theists is this:
1. Log out of this forum.
2. Go find an amicable theist.
3. Take them out to coffee.
Why you don't take your own advice?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:41 PM   #13
theprestige
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Why you don't take your own advice?
I'm not looking for an amicable debate with theists. I view participation on this forum as a vice. A vice which I indulge probably more than I should. If you want to indulge as well, who am I to judge? But when a newcomer shows up, ostensibly looking for something else, I think it's only fair to warn them that this probably isn't the venue they're looking for.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:43 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
I want to reach out to theists amicably
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
So what? I don't think you quote Richard Dawkins correctly, regardless he isn't my "god", is he yours? Read a dictionary.
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Why you don't take your own advice?
lolz, as predictable as the tides.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not looking for an amicable debate with theists. I view participation on this forum as a vice. A vice which I indulge probably more than I should. If you want to indulge as well, who am I to judge? But when a newcomer shows up, ostensibly looking for something else, I think it's only fair to warn them that this probably isn't the venue they're looking for.
From my experience you're not looking for an amicable debate with atheists either. What are you looking for?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
From my experience you're not looking for an amicable debate with atheists either. What are you looking for?
I thought I was pretty amicable with you. But that didn't seem to be what you wanted, so I excused myself from the conversation. No hard feelings, I hope.

Last edited by theprestige; 14th March 2019 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
lolz, as predictable as the tides.
Now that is just unnecessarily rude! Why can't you be more amicable?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
So what? I don't think you quote Richard Dawkins correctly, regardless he isn't my "god", is he yours? Read a dictionary.
From ' the God delusion' page 39 of the paperback edition.

" Let's remind ourselves of the terminology. A theists believes in a supernatural intelligence who, in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation. In many theistic belief systems, the deity is intimately involved in human affairs. He answers prayers; forgives or punishes sins; intervenes in the world by performing miracles; frets about good and bad deeds, and knows when we do them [or even think of doing them] . A Deist too, believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter , and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs."
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought I was pretty amicable with you. But that didn't seem to be what you wanted, so I excused myself from the conversation. No hard feelings, I hope.
I don't do "hard feelings", at least I try not to.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
From ' the God delusion' page 39 of the paperback edition.

" Let's remind ourselves of the terminology. A theists believes in a supernatural intelligence who, in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation. In many theistic belief systems, the deity is intimately involved in human affairs. He answers prayers; forgives or punishes sins; intervenes in the world by performing miracles; frets about good and bad deeds, and knows when we do them [or even think of doing them] . A Deist too, believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter , and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs."
Thanks for providing the actual quote.

Dawkins isn't saying deists aren't theists, he's defining one type of theist from another.

Theists (including deist-theists) believe in a god (aka - a supernatural intelligence)

Let's not derail this thread.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:06 PM   #21
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Never be afraid to learn for yourself, and accept no rings in your nose. Notice I didn't say "think" for yourself; you need facts to learn for yourself. That's the skeptic part. Then, take contrary positions and change your mind as needed to get real-time learning on the topics of your interest. In science and some areas of social, political and general philosophy you will find more than one great mind here – not generally posting in a notorious fashion, so harder to pick out – and one with a rapier wit seemingly whetted for a singular pet peeve. Hilarious and absolutely deadly. Find them and read them. That's the jolly due diligence part. When done, post serious stuff elsewhere and join the Humor section. That's the "west and wewaxation" part.

tl;dr: Welcome. Enjoy.
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:22 PM   #22
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #23
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I don't believe in an interventionist god
But I know, darling, that you do...
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Old 14th March 2019, 02:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!
Ladies too! . . . Bloody sexists
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:12 PM   #25
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Reaching out to theists amicably ...... huuumme, can be difficult.

The difficulty is mainly from the theist side, if they get upset about you not treating their particular brand of woo with respect, and treating any kind of this stuff with any respect is difficult for the atheist.

I have tried to be understanding by not levelling criticism at theists directly, whilst certainly criticising the dogma they hold as dear, as I see the theists as victims. A difficult road to tread sometimes, as many theists take it personally if you don't swallow the stuff they do, and some feel my sympathy for them as victims, condescending.

Being honest to myself I don't see another way however.
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:18 PM   #26
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Speak of the devil, and his horns appear.
Lol
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Old 14th March 2019, 03:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Now, I am a very strong atheist: gods are silly concepts to me.
Sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Nonetheless, I want to reach out to believers like my wife, who I married fully knowing she believed in God, and with her fully knowing I was an atheist. We actually enjoy talking about God, and I hope to do the same with other believers as well. I am thinking perhaps starting online would be a good idea.
Fair enough. I can't stand talking to people who still need the security blanket of a sky-daddy myself, but you're not me.

If you do want to have civil discussions with serious and thoughtful christians, this is a very good place to start: https://forums.shipoffools.com/

They are mostly non-Pentecostal, and therefore don't think you're possessed by Satan for being an atheist. Very nice people, and some are of them are amazingly intelligent, except for one small area of thought. (They used to have a no-holds-barred area to have excellent flame wars, too. May still be there.)

Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
I hope to blog atheism and naturalism, and to reach people with the message that we atheists are amazing, lovable, kind, compassionate, gentle people.
Good luck with that. I suspect that like all atheist bloggers, you'll end up preaching to the converted. I was fairly active in that way myself nearer the turn of the century but found it a waste of my time.

Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Most of us are not rude to theists online, but they see the rudeness, especially as the rest of us often do not speak up. I want to be one of the ones who speak up. Those whom no one has exposed to atheism, agnosticism and skepticism, need exposure to these things so that they are aware of our true, wonderful nature.
Keep them well away from me, then. Pandering to weak-willed wankers who need a crutch to cope with life is not on my to-do list.

Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
In addition to exposing others to our non-theism, we can learn more about theists as well, and get to understand them progressively better.
I think you'll find there's not a lot to learn - diverse people suffer from the exact same delusion, be they christian, muslin, Hindu or Jewish: they think their invisible entity is the one true one.

Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
I look forward to engaging input from you here on the forum, and I wish you the best in the meantime!
Thanks & likewise to yourself. Always nice to see new blood here. We're getting a bit stale on it.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sounds good to me.



Fair enough. I can't stand talking to people who still need the security blanket of a sky-daddy myself, but you're not me.

If you do want to have civil discussions with serious and thoughtful christians, this is a very good place to start: https://forums.shipoffools.com/

They are mostly non-Pentecostal, and therefore don't think you're possessed by Satan for being an atheist. Very nice people, and some are of them are amazingly intelligent, except for one small area of thought. (They used to have a no-holds-barred area to have excellent flame wars, too. May still be there.)



Good luck with that. I suspect that like all atheist bloggers, you'll end up preaching to the converted. I was fairly active in that way myself nearer the turn of the century but found it a waste of my time.



Keep them well away from me, then. Pandering to weak-willed wankers who need a crutch to cope with life is not on my to-do list.



I think you'll find there's not a lot to learn - diverse people suffer from the exact same delusion, be they christian, muslin, Hindu or Jewish: they think their invisible entity is the one true one.



Thanks & likewise to yourself. Always nice to see new blood here. We're getting a bit stale on it.
I see in statements like these a lack of awareness of the contigent nature of an individual’s beliefs, worldview and self identity. Perhaps an unwarranted faith in an essentialist idea of self. Had your parents abandoned you in a predominantly Muslim country to be brought up there, you would probably be a Muslim. Maybe you did grow up in a practicing religious household but who you are now is a mix of genetic predisposition and cultural environment with “chance” meetings with people who influenced and helped shape you. Many of the atheists on these forums that you may back slap today were once deeply religious people.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:10 PM   #30
ynot
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I'd like to see amicable atheist jeffbradt and amicable theist attempt5001 have an in-depth god debate. It might be a worthwhile lesson in amicability. Is attempt5001 still active here?
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:15 PM   #31
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The difficulty is mainly from the theist side...
Ummm... no, it's about equal from both sides in my experience. For example...

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I can't stand talking to people who still need the security blanket of a sky-daddy myself, but you're not me...

...Pandering to weak-willed wankers who need a crutch to cope with life is not on my to-do list.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:19 PM   #32
ynot
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I see in statements like these a lack of awareness of the contigent nature of an individual’s beliefs, worldview and self identity. Perhaps an unwarranted faith in an essentialist idea of self. Had your parents abandoned you in a predominantly Muslim country to be brought up there, you would probably be a Muslim. Maybe you did grow up in a practicing religious household but who you are now is a mix of genetic predisposition and cultural environment with “chance” meetings with people who influenced and helped shape you. Many of the atheists on these forums that you may back slap today were once deeply religious people.

Yet you let this pass without comment . . .
Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Now, I am a very strong atheist: gods are silly concepts to me.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:20 PM   #33
GDon
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Originally Posted by jeffbradt View Post
Nonetheless, I want to reach out to believers like my wife, who I married fully knowing she believed in God, and with her fully knowing I was an atheist.
I'm a theist myself. Might be best going to a theist forum if you want to discuss topics with theists? For many atheists on this forum (not all, of course!), the idea of 'God' doesn't get much more involved than 'Wizard Who Lives in the Sky.' And they want you to prove to them that the particular version of God that they don't believe in in fact exists.

How would you argue against the conversion of a long-time atheist Australian politician who converted to Christianity recently at age 85?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ce...hristianity-at
BRISBANE, Australia, September 19, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – A famous Australian politician who made no secret of his atheism has converted to Christianity.

Former Governor General Bill Hayden was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church on September 9th at St. Mary’s Church, Ipswich, near Brisbane...

Hayden, 85, was the leader of the Australian Labor Party from 1977 to 1983 and served as a cabinet minister in subsequent Labor governments. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade from 1983 to 1988, he left parliament to become the Queen’s representative in Australia, the Governor General. He served in this post for seven years.

The politician’s atheism was not of a private nature. In 1996 he was declared “the Australian Humanist of the Year” by the Council of Australian Humanist Societies. But twenty years later, Hayden felt a tug on his heart.

“There’s been a gnawing pain in my heart and soul about what is the meaning of life. What’s my role in it?” he told the Catholic Leader.

“I can no longer accept that human existence is self-sufficient and isolated.”

Although inspired by memories of his devout Catholic mother and the Ursuline order of sisters that taught him as a child, Hayden said that the catalyst to his conversion was a Sister of Mercy. Ninety-three-year-old Sister Angela Mary Doyle also attended his baptism.

“I have always felt embraced and loved by her Christian example,” Hayden said.
...
“The next morning I woke with the strong sense that I had been in the presence of a holy woman,” he continued.

“So after dwelling on these things I found my way back to the core of those beliefs – the Church.”
...
The Australian reported that Hayden said it was “witnessing so many selfless acts of compassion by Christians over his lifetime, and deep contemplation while recovering from a stroke, that prompted his decision.

He told the Catholic Leader that his new faith is not about rules but love.

“It is about love for your fellow humans, forgiveness, compassion and helpful support,” Hayden said.

“These characteristics are founded on the teachings of Christ and driven by faith in an external power – the Christian God whose limitations are beyond what humans could attain,” he added.
Nothing about Sky Wizards there, but the inspirational actions of fellow humans pointing to something grander: in this case, God. How would you engage such a theist, other than shrugging your shoulders and say 'This proves nothing'? Or perhaps it could be because he had a stroke? Or he was getting old so afraid of death?

Last edited by GDon; 14th March 2019 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Yet you let this pass without comment . . .
Looks like it stands in the same line of fire and as such I have nothing further to say. Do you have something to say on it?
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Looks like it stands in the same line of fire and as such I have nothing further to say. Do you have something to say on it?
Perhaps I could say to jeffbradt (if he hasn't left already) that his amicable attempt has apparently failed, and that he needs to improve his lack of awareness of the contigent nature of an individual’s beliefs, worldview and self identity, to be truly amicable.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Perhaps I could say to jeffbradt (if he hasn't left already) that his amicable attempt has apparently failed, and that he needs to improve his lack of awareness of the contigent nature of an individual’s beliefs, worldview and self identity, to be truly amicable.
You could but it would be nice if you expanded on my idea instead of regurgitating it in a new context with zero explanation/claim/argument.
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:48 PM   #37
ynot
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I'm a theist myself. Might be best going to a theist forum if you want to discuss topics with theists? For many atheists on this forum (not all, of course!), the idea of 'God' doesn't get much more involved than 'Wizard Who Lives in the Sky.' And they want you to prove to them that the particular version of God that they don't believe in in fact exists.

How would you argue against the conversion of a long-time atheist Australian politician who converted to Christianity recently at age 85?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ce...hristianity-at
BRISBANE, Australia, September 19, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – A famous Australian politician who made no secret of his atheism has converted to Christianity.

Former Governor General Bill Hayden was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church on September 9th at St. Mary’s Church, Ipswich, near Brisbane...

Hayden, 85, was the leader of the Australian Labor Party from 1977 to 1983 and served as a cabinet minister in subsequent Labor governments. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade from 1983 to 1988, he left parliament to become the Queen’s representative in Australia, the Governor General. He served in this post for seven years.

The politician’s atheism was not of a private nature. In 1996 he was declared “the Australian Humanist of the Year” by the Council of Australian Humanist Societies. But twenty years later, Hayden felt a tug on his heart.

“There’s been a gnawing pain in my heart and soul about what is the meaning of life. What’s my role in it?” he told the Catholic Leader.

“I can no longer accept that human existence is self-sufficient and isolated.”

Although inspired by memories of his devout Catholic mother and the Ursuline order of sisters that taught him as a child, Hayden said that the catalyst to his conversion was a Sister of Mercy. Ninety-three-year-old Sister Angela Mary Doyle also attended his baptism.

“I have always felt embraced and loved by her Christian example,” Hayden said.
...
“The next morning I woke with the strong sense that I had been in the presence of a holy woman,” he continued.

“So after dwelling on these things I found my way back to the core of those beliefs – the Church.”
...
The Australian reported that Hayden said it was “witnessing so many selfless acts of compassion by Christians over his lifetime, and deep contemplation while recovering from a stroke, that prompted his decision.

He told the Catholic Leader that his new faith is not about rules but love.

“It is about love for your fellow humans, forgiveness, compassion and helpful support,” Hayden said.

“These characteristics are founded on the teachings of Christ and driven by faith in an external power – the Christian God whose limitations are beyond what humans could attain,” he added.
Nothing about Sky Wizards there, but the inspirational actions of fellow humans pointing to something grander: in this case, God. How would you engage such a theist, other than shrugging your shoulders and say 'This proves nothing'? Or perhaps it could be because he had a stroke? Or he was getting old so afraid of death?
Why would anyone argue against the conversion of a long-time atheist Australian politician who converted to Christianity recently at age 85? There are many reasons people convert to god beliefs, so what?

How would you argue against the deconversion of an increasing number of long-time theists?
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You could but it would be nice if you expanded on my idea instead of regurgitating it in a new context with zero explanation/claim/argument.
Okay . . . I can be nice . . . I think you conflate "lack of awareness" and "lack of acceptance/agreement".
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Okay . . . I can be nice . . . I think you conflate "lack of awareness" and "lack of acceptance/agreement".
While you are in a nice mood perhaps you could make that argument?
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:11 PM   #40
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I don't think that Richard Dawkins should be regarded as the arbitrer of correct usage of theistic/deistic terms.

I have found a standard usage is "bare theism" which means that there is a necessarily existing intelligence which is the ultimate creator of all contingent things. This is without any position about whether this being has a moral dimension or interacts with the creation.

That stands above the Theism of a normal believer, but also might include a deist belief.
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