[Merged] The Qur'an corrects the mistakes of the false Injil/Torah - Page 59

Gulliver Foyle · 26th January 2023, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

There is no present, past or future time for Allah. He is outside of time. He is also outside of space. We are the ones travelling in time and space. God does not learn later, He knows from the beginning.

If God wants, He can throw the good people to hell instead of paradise. But He never does that. The fact that he knows what to do does not prevent his free will. In the same way, we know that God will create us again and send us to paradise or hell. The fact that we know what Allah will do in the future does not contradict His free will. We know the results of free choices.

But the evil are only evil because allah made them so. Allah is punishing people for actions he took. It'd be like you forcing a woman to put a gun to her head and pulling the trigger and then sentencing her father to death for murder.

JayUtah · 26th January 2023, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Yes, Allah is always good.

Yes, religious people want their God to be perfectly just, all-knowing, and all-powerful—Platonically Perfect in Every Way. But when they appoint this God to be the creator and judge of a chaotic world, they have to sweep all the Plato problems under the rug.

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Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

Yes, every religion's god punishes the wicked from a position of perfect justice; otherwise why is such a god worthy of worship? The problem is that the very concept of wickedness becomes morally shaky as soon as you figure out the natural tension among all those Platonic superlatives you attribute to your god, and the tension between the roles of a Platonic creator and of a Platonic judge over those creations.

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There is no present, past or future time for Allah. He is outside of time. He is also outside of space. We are the ones travelling in time and space. God does not learn later, He knows from the beginning.

You keep skipping the part where, in Islam, Allah ordained the outcome. He doesn't just know what will happen, due to his nonlinear perception of time. He commanded it to happen, because otherwise he's not omnipotent. And if he weren't Platonically Powerful, he wouldn't be worshipful.

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If God wants, He can throw the good people to hell instead of paradise. But He never does that.

Because then he would cease to be perfectly just, and therefore cease to be worshipful.

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The fact that he knows what to do does not prevent his free will.

No, the fact that the rules of justice are bigger than God means he has no free will on this point. If he doesn't act justly, then he's just one of the capricious gods of Olympus, not the Neo-Platonic god that everyone just says is the best of whatever property we're discussing. And therefore he's not worshipful.

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In the same way, we know that God will create us again and send us to paradise or hell.

God created Jack the Ripper knowing what he would do. But in Islam, God knew that not just because he can run the surveillance video both forward into the future and backwards into the past at will. In Islam, God decreed that Jack the Ripper would do all those things. Jack must literally act out the script that God set forth for him, otherwise God isn't God.

Jack's ignorance of his predestination doesn't equate to volition. But it when it comes time for Jack to justly be sent either to heaven or hell, then Jack has to somehow have had volition because a just judge can punish people only for what they knowingly did. That's when we just ignore the part that God set Jack up to fail—just as you're ignoring it now.

Nor does Jack's ignorance of his predestination excuse God from creating him as an inevitable monster. We instruct the victims of others' evil to take comfort in God's justice in this life or the next. But that falls flat when you reveal that the victims suffered the knowable and avoidable consequences of God's creation of something he had decreed to be evil. Volition pales in the revelation that we are merely God's playthings.

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The fact that we know what Allah will do in the future does not contradict His free will.

Yes, it really does. If Allah's behavior is constrained by rules he must follow in order to remain who you say he is, then he doesn't have free will. And all this comes from buying too much into Plato. If you buy into that philosophy of what must be worshipful, then you're stuck with a god full of unresolved contradiction.

JayUtah · 26th January 2023, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

The way the religious mind works (or refuses to work) will always be a mystery to the atheist.

Logical argument contesting nonsensical beliefs, are just brushed aside because the faithful just knows he is right.

I admire the persistence of those here that try however.

Yes, I'm here for the theater of religious folk thrashing about in the throes of righteous self-justification. I'm all for people believing what they want about the deep mysteries. But when they try to convince me that what they believe is right and true, then they're on my turf.

Some religious folk don't just tolerate mysterious thinking, they revel in it. How can Jesus be both fully God and fully man? Catholics just shrug and say, "It's a mystery! Ain't it gorgeous?" And it's not limited to esoteric bits of doctrine. When we confront them with the problem of evil, they just up the ante and tell us that the ways of God are mysterious. His justice is somehow different and better than ours, and we should just have faith. Justice by definition has to make sense to those subject to the judgment, so that falls flat.

Ultimately it comes down to a religious person wanting to believe that by gobbling up the ragged tidbits of theology handed to him by people with questionable motives, he will have elevated his thinking above the rabble of sectarian philosophy. The religious person claims his knowledge is a revelation from on high, delivered in perfect, incontestable form from the lips of God—and therefore always the Right Answer even if it doesn't make sense. Therefore people like Emre can dismiss the hard-won understanding of philosophers as mere "nonsense statements," unworthy even of discussion.

But all those great philosophers—at least early on—also believed in God and incorporated their understanding of deity into their otherwise deeply reasoned opinions. Even the great moralist Klaatu believed in the "Almighty Spirit." Religion has a love-hate relationship with secular philosophy. But in the end it's not about the great mysteries and whether there's a god at the heart of them. In the end it's about the individual's sense of entitlement connected to the belief that a God exists, and that the God considers that individual to be more favorable than those who don't believe.

Steve · 26th January 2023, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

.

Your god knows before a particular creation that the person will make "wicked" choices and then goes ahead and creates that person knowing that the person will be punished for those choices. Your god is a sadistic ass.... that revels in the suffering of humans. Do you attempt to emulate your god in your every day life?

Thor 2 · 26th January 2023, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

Originally Posted by Steve

Your god knows before a particular creation that the person will make "wicked" choices and then goes ahead and creates that person knowing that the person will be punished for those choices. Your god is a sadistic ass.... that revels in the suffering of humans. Do you attempt to emulate your god in your every day life?

Couldn't agree more Steve.

I have always felt that whoever conjured up the idea of Hell originally, must have had a twisted mind. We were first introduced to this treasure in the New Testament I think. I wonder if Mohamed had this as an original thought also, or was it one of the many things poached from Christianity.

steenkh · 27th January 2023, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness.

There is your problem: Your always-good God allows lots of wicked things. If we for a moment disregard the evil things that people do (because you claim they have a free will, even though they can only do their evil deeds if your God allows it), then we also have all the evil things that your God does all by himself, such as diseases and natural disasters.

How can your God create natural disasters that kill and maim thousands of people if he is always good? You also claim he is all-powerful so surely he could have created a world without diseases and natural disasters? How can your God allow a newborn baby to die horribly in a fire caused by a natural disaster if he is all good, and he knew it would happen because he knows all, and he is all-powerful and could have prevented it?

steenkh · 27th January 2023, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Some religious folk don't just tolerate mysterious thinking, they revel in it.

I agree with everything you said.

One of the mysteries that intrigues me is that these gods value faith so much. The gods never reveal themselves to easily be seen by everybody. Instead they shroud themselves in mystery and demand that we have faith that they exist. If such a god just wanted to populate heaven and hell with suitably good and evil people, they could do it without being hidden. Instead they demand that we believe in them.

I would definitely do whatever a real god commanded me to do, no matter if it meant I should go the mosque every day, or bang my head to the floor every second hour, if there was no doubt that this god really existed, and was as powerful (the god doesn’t need to be good, in fact I would probably be even more eager to please an evil god) as claimed.

The secrecy tells me that the gods don’t exist, and that the worshippers know it. They also know that fear is the best means of conversion, which is why they invent all the stories about hell.

Emre_1974tr · 27th January 2023, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

But under your formualtion I have no choice because there is no indeterminacy ahead of time. Because allah knows the outcome ahead of time, I am not in a position to be able to choose, because my choice could render allah's knowledge to be wrong, rendering him imperfect and therefore not the god of the qu'ran.

No, you will make your own choice of your own free will. And Allah knows this choice you will make with your free will. You will choose one option and God knows that you have chosen it. You can choose the opposite, but you will not choose it. Let's say you have choices A and B in front of you. You will choose one of them. The fact that you will not choose the other option does not mean that you do not have free will. It shows that you have decided this with your free will.

Emre_1974tr · 27th January 2023, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

But the evil are only evil because allah made them so.

No, human beings are created equal to good and evil. Even the revelation/verses within human beings direct people towards goodness. A human being who does not turn his back on the verses within him is orientated towards goodness and Islam.

Emre_1974tr · 27th January 2023, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by steenkh

There is your problem: Your always-good God allows lots of wicked things. If we for a moment disregard the evil things that people do (because you claim they have a free will, even though they can only do their evil deeds if your God allows it), then we also have all the evil things that your God does all by himself, such as diseases and natural disasters.

Suffering in this world serves a similar purpose as suffering in hell. To give everyone what they deserve. The pleasures of this world and paradise serve the same purpose. To give you what you deserve.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611966.0

steenkh · 27th January 2023, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Suffering in this world serves a similar purpose as suffering in hell. To give everyone what they deserve. The pleasures of this world and paradise serve the same purpose. To give you what you deserve.

So infant babies get what they deserve when they are killed in a natural disaster?

Steve · 27th January 2023, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by steenkh

So infant babies get what they deserve when they are killed in a natural disaster?

I think they get what Emre_1974tr's sadistic god decides they deserve. The god created them with the full knowledge that those babies would deserve to suffer and be punished for their choices.

JayUtah · 27th January 2023, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

No, you will make your own choice of your own free will. And Allah knows this choice you will make with your free will. You will choose one option and God knows that you have chosen it. You can choose the opposite, but you will not choose it.

No. Islam teaches predestination, but you don't know the difference between that and foreknowledge, so you're not really discussing the philosophical dilemma in your beliefs. A person makes the choice that God has decreed will happen. That means it was never possible for that person to choose anything else, and therefore that person never had a choice. The abstract possibility of other outcomes does not equate to volition. The person's ignorance of their predicament does not equate to volition.

JayUtah · 27th January 2023, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

No, human beings are created equal to good and evil.

No. Every human being was created by a God who has decreed ahead of time what that person will do. Then if God has decreed that that person will have done evil, he condemns that person to hell. The fact that this person is ignorant of the process does not give him volition.

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Even the revelation/verses within human beings direct people towards goodness. A human being who does not turn his back on the verses within him is orientated towards goodness and Islam.

Whether a person accepts or rejects religion has already been decided by your God.

Islam teaches predestination. Predestination is a necessary consequence of the purported omnipotence of God. But then God must also redress evil. That is a necessary consequence of the purported perfect justice of God. These properties are in inherent conflict. You can't resolve them by simply ignoring the dilemma.

JayUtah · 27th January 2023, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Suffering in this world serves a similar purpose as suffering in hell. To give everyone what they deserve.

No. Not everyone who suffers "must" be guilty.

Norman Alexander · 27th January 2023, 01:48 PM

Emre has a line of preaching that he fervently believes because Allah made him do it from even before he was born. He knows nothing else and can't conceive that he could be entirely mistaken in his beliefs. Allah has seen to it that he doesn't learn anything new, especially about life outside his own beliefs.

That is the definition of a cult.

Steve · 27th January 2023, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Emre has a line of preaching that he fervently believes because Allah made him do it from even before he was born. He knows nothing else and can't conceive that he could be entirely mistaken in his beliefs. Allah has seen to it that he doesn't learn anything new, especially about life outside his own beliefs.

That is the definition of a cult.

And yet Emre's god created him anyway. In addition to being sadistic that god has an odd sense of humor.

JayUtah · 27th January 2023, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

I think they get what Emre_1974tr's sadistic god decides they deserve. The god created them with the full knowledge that those babies would deserve to suffer and be punished for their choices.

Setting aside the whole predestination argument, this makes some sense in the Dharmic religions where a baby might be bringing along baggage from a former life. But in the linear lifespan religions (e.g., all the Abrahamic ones) you should start with a presumption of innocence. No, a baby who perishes in a natural disaster isn't being punished for his sins; that's absurd.

Reconciling the injustice of the present world with an all-powerful, just, and merciful God necessitates the afterlife. If you suffered unjustly in this life, you will be rewarded all the more in the life to come. The soul of the baby who dies in a tsunami will be received gladly into heaven to be surrounded by fluffy bunnies and ice cream for all eternity. And that's how we jibe a horrible world with a supposedly benevolent God.

This raises some red flags for those of us who don't believe in an afterlife, and for whom there is no moral safety net. We believe wrongs committed in this life should be redressed as much as possible in this life, when they have the most proximal and compensatory effect. People who say that those who suffer unjustly now will be rewarded later, by someone else, don't give me a lot of confidence in their moral compasses.

Emre_1974tr · 28th January 2023, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

No, you will make your own choice of your own free will. And Allah knows this choice you will make with your free will. You will choose one option and God knows that you have chosen it. You can choose the opposite, but you will not choose it. Let's say you have choices A and B in front of you. You will choose one of them. The fact that you will not choose the other option does not mean that you do not have free will. It shows that you have decided this with your free will.

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

Leumas · 28th January 2023, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

If that is the case then your Allah is a piece of fetid mephitic cockroach feces... you are welcome to it and its stench.... tsk tsk tsk.

Leumas · 28th January 2023, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

According to your statement Allah is a heinous sordid abject imbecile... he knows that what he is making is going to cause misery but he makes it still anyway... and then waits until the misery he knew will happen, takes place... and watches while the misery is occurring without lifting a finger to stop it... and then after the misery is over he still does nothing for eons while more misery he caused also takes place... and finally after all that misery,.. he ... the creator of all that misery... comes along and causes even more wretched misery with more hideous actions he does FOR ETERNITY.

According to your very own admission... your Allah is a voyeuristic sadistic monstrous rotten filth.

Norman Alexander · 28th January 2023, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

Do you understand that what you have written here is a pile of self-contradicting nonsense?

Leumas · 28th January 2023, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

~~Emre~~ Jesus has a line of preaching that he fervently believes because Allah [a.k.a. YHWH] made him do it from even before he was born. He knows nothing else and can't conceive that he could be entirely mistaken in his beliefs. Allah [a.k.a. YHWH] has seen to it that he doesn't learn anything new, especially about life outside his own beliefs.

That is the definition of a cult.

And cults are bad things... right??

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Do you understand that what you have written here is a pile of self-contradicting nonsense?

And that is a bad thing... right??

Myriad · 28th January 2023, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

If Allah is all-knowing, then Allah cannot possibly learn anything.

If Allah is all-powerful, then Allah cannot possibly need or desire anything different from what already exists.

With nothing to learn and nothing to accomplish, Allah has no rational reason to act.

Therefore, either Allah acts irrationally, or does not act at all. In either case, there's no point trying to do anything to please him, appease him, or otherwise influence his actions. Prayer, for example, must be meaningless. Is it right for Allah to judge people based on whether or not they perform an act that his own declarations prove to be meaningless?

Steve · 28th January 2023, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

If Allah is all-knowing, then Allah cannot possibly learn anything.

If Allah is all-powerful, then Allah cannot possibly need or desire anything different from what already exists.

With nothing to learn and nothing to accomplish, Allah has no rational reason to act.

Therefore, either Allah acts irrationally, or does not act at all. In either case, there's no point trying to do anything to please him, appease him, or otherwise influence his actions. Prayer, for example, must be meaningless. Is it right for Allah to judge people based on whether or not they perform an act that his own declarations prove to be meaningless?

Seems the Allah concept, and by extension gods in general, is nonsense. Somehow I have known this for a rather long time.

Persons who try to rationalize the supposed actions of a god invariably end up twisting themselves into such a knot that they end up confirming the nonsense that they are so desperate to deny.

JayUtah · 28th January 2023, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers.

Congratulations, you finally managed to state somewhat accurately the doctrine of predestination as taught in Islam.

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The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

No, God predestined you to heaven or hell before he created you. It really is that simple. The pen has been set down and the page has dried. When Islamic teachers have to admit that judgment is only just when there is free will, and God is only God when there isn't, they do the same dance as the Catholics do: they declare that our puny human brains can't understand how this obvious contradiction is somehow nevertheless true. It all gets coded in religious-sounding language—praise be to Allah!—and the rubes get to feel like they believe in something everyone else is too stupid to figure out.

JayUtah · 28th January 2023, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Seems the Allah concept, and by extension gods in general, is nonsense. Somehow I have known this for a rather long time.

Persons who try to rationalize the supposed actions of a god invariably end up twisting themselves into such a knot that they end up confirming the nonsense that they are so desperate to deny.

Indeed, in some ways Zeus is more credible than Elohim or Allah. At least a being like Zeus could actually exist, rather than being described by a mass of inherent Neo-Platonic contradiction. "God is Love." But apparently his divine benevolence and power include Jeffrey Dahmer and H.H. Holmes..

It least we know Zeus is a capricious jerk.

steenkh · 28th January 2023, 11:09 AM

Hm, Emre chose not to comment about innocent infants being horribly destroyed in natural disasters.

Is this a sort of not fighting a battle you are bound to lose?

Leumas · 28th January 2023, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Indeed, in some ways Zeus is more credible than Elohim or Allah. At least a being like Zeus could actually exist, rather than being described by a mass of inherent Neo-Platonic contradiction. "God is Love." But apparently his divine benevolence and power include Jeffrey Dahmer and H.H. Holmes..

It least we know Zeus is a capricious jerk.

My favorite is Kali... she reminds me of some of my ex-wives and ex-girlfriends...

sackett · 28th January 2023, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Indeed, in some ways Zeus is more credible than Elohim or Allah. At least a being like Zeus could actually exist, rather than being described by a mass of inherent Neo-Platonic contradiction. "God is Love." But apparently his divine benevolence and power include Jeffrey Dahmer and H.H. Holmes..

It least we know Zeus is a capricious jerk.

And right there we see a reason, maybe THE reason, for the stubborn persistence of polytheism: One Great Overarching Poobah God Who Does It All is so damn illogical, so unsatisfying, so useless, that people gratefully make up and enjoy godlets galore. Famished monotheists always have a Satan and angels, along with rags and tags of supernatural holdovers from their heathen days: jinns, Jesuses, goblins, sprites, Catholic saints, Jos. Smiths, ghosts, Ascended Masters, Father Divines --

ow, my poor finger! I'm typing it down to a stub!

Steve · 28th January 2023, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

My favorite is Kali... she reminds me of some of my ex-wives and ex-girlfriends...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5676574063.jpg

Had a cat named Kali. Her name suited her. And she seemed to think she was a god.

JayUtah · 28th January 2023, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Had a cat named Kali. Her name suited her. And she seemed to think she was a god.

We can blame ancient Egyptians both for the concept of hell and for deifying cats. There’s a connection there somewhere.

Crossbow · 28th January 2023, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

Ahem ...

If you are actually trying to get more converts to the Muslim religion, then posts like this are quite counter-productive.

Blue Mountain · 28th January 2023, 03:22 PM

Dog: “I'm living with this hairless ape. It loves me, gives me shelter, feeds me, and gives me attention whenever I ask for it. It must be a god!”

Cat: “I'm living with this hairless ape. It loves me, gives me shelter, feeds me, and gives me attention whenever I ask for it. I must be a god!”

sackett · 28th January 2023, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

We can blame ancient Egyptians both for the concept of hell and for deifying cats. There’s a connection there somewhere.

Naw, the 'Gyptians said that your misbehaving soul would.be consumed by a god with one of their all-consonent names (he looked part hippopotamus, poor guy) and that was annihilation. No eternal fires for the riffraff; fuel was scarce enough already.

But watching a genuinely hungry cat deal with a mouse -- Tib doesn't play with her food when she's in earnest -- might give rise to a creepy superstition about Last Things. If you're a Bronze Age priest with time on his hands.

JayUtah · 28th January 2023, 04:47 PM

Ammit lives in or near a lake of fire and doesn't eat your heart right away. And sometimes he throws your soul into the fire after he eats your heart. Believe me, a religion that can make a god out of the ass-end of a hippo can keep that fire burning.

Robin · 29th January 2023, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

Is it free will if every single thing you do and say was inevitable before you were even born?

steenkh · 29th January 2023, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Is it free will if every single thing you do and say was inevitable before you were even born?

From Emre’s replies here, it seems that you just need special definitions of “free” and “will”.

Emre_1974tr · 29th January 2023, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

If Allah is all-knowing, then Allah cannot possibly learn anything.

If Allah is all-powerful, then Allah cannot possibly need or desire anything different from what already exists.

With nothing to learn and nothing to accomplish, ?

God/Allah does not learn, because He already knows. That's where his perfection comes from. He does not evolve by trial and error or experience. He is already perfect.

I have already explained this in my articles.

You think that timelessness means that wristwatch does not work. No, being out of time and space is a completely different situation.

Emre_1974tr · 29th January 2023, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Is it free will if every single thing you do and say was inevitable before you were even born?

No, you don't have to choose that option. It is not inevitable. But you will choose that option of your own free will. You might not have done it, but you chose to do it.

26th January 2023, 12:04 PM	#2324
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,227	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness. . Your god knows before a particular creation that the person will make "wicked" choices and then goes ahead and creates that person knowing that the person will be punished for those choices. Your god is a sadistic ass.... that revels in the suffering of humans. Do you attempt to emulate your god in your every day life?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

26th January 2023, 03:23 PM	#2325
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane. Posts: 7,154	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness. Originally Posted by Steve Your god knows before a particular creation that the person will make "wicked" choices and then goes ahead and creates that person knowing that the person will be punished for those choices. Your god is a sadistic ass.... that revels in the suffering of humans. Do you attempt to emulate your god in your every day life? Couldn't agree more Steve. I have always felt that whoever conjured up the idea of Hell originally, must have had a twisted mind. We were first introduced to this treasure in the New Testament I think. I wonder if Mohamed had this as an original thought also, or was it one of the many things poached from Christianity.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

27th January 2023, 05:22 AM	#2326
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,786	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness. There is your problem: Your always-good God allows lots of wicked things. If we for a moment disregard the evil things that people do (because you claim they have a free will, even though they can only do their evil deeds if your God allows it), then we also have all the evil things that your God does all by himself, such as diseases and natural disasters. How can your God create natural disasters that kill and maim thousands of people if he is always good? You also claim he is all-powerful so surely he could have created a world without diseases and natural disasters? How can your God allow a newborn baby to die horribly in a fire caused by a natural disaster if he is all good, and he knew it would happen because he knows all, and he is all-powerful and could have prevented it?
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

27th January 2023, 05:32 AM	#2327
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,786	Originally Posted by JayUtah Some religious folk don't just tolerate mysterious thinking, they revel in it. I agree with everything you said. One of the mysteries that intrigues me is that these gods value faith so much. The gods never reveal themselves to easily be seen by everybody. Instead they shroud themselves in mystery and demand that we have faith that they exist. If such a god just wanted to populate heaven and hell with suitably good and evil people, they could do it without being hidden. Instead they demand that we believe in them. I would definitely do whatever a real god commanded me to do, no matter if it meant I should go the mosque every day, or bang my head to the floor every second hour, if there was no doubt that this god really existed, and was as powerful (the god doesn’t need to be good, in fact I would probably be even more eager to please an evil god) as claimed. The secrecy tells me that the gods don’t exist, and that the worshippers know it. They also know that fear is the best means of conversion, which is why they invent all the stories about hell.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

27th January 2023, 07:17 AM	#2331
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,786	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Suffering in this world serves a similar purpose as suffering in hell. To give everyone what they deserve. The pleasures of this world and paradise serve the same purpose. To give you what you deserve. So infant babies get what they deserve when they are killed in a natural disaster?
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

26th January 2023, 06:08 AM	#2321
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,322	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Yes, Allah is always good. Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness. There is no present, past or future time for Allah. He is outside of time. He is also outside of space. We are the ones travelling in time and space. God does not learn later, He knows from the beginning. If God wants, He can throw the good people to hell instead of paradise. But He never does that. The fact that he knows what to do does not prevent his free will. In the same way, we know that God will create us again and send us to paradise or hell. The fact that we know what Allah will do in the future does not contradict His free will. We know the results of free choices. But the evil are only evil because allah made them so. Allah is punishing people for actions he took. It'd be like you forcing a woman to put a gun to her head and pulling the trigger and then sentencing her father to death for murder.

26th January 2023, 08:22 AM	#2322
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Yes, Allah is always good. Yes, religious people want their God to be perfectly just, all-knowing, and all-powerful—Platonically Perfect in Every Way. But when they appoint this God to be the creator and judge of a chaotic world, they have to sweep all the Plato problems under the rug. Quote: Even His punishing the wicked in hell is a reflection of His goodness. Yes, every religion's god punishes the wicked from a position of perfect justice; otherwise why is such a god worthy of worship? The problem is that the very concept of wickedness becomes morally shaky as soon as you figure out the natural tension among all those Platonic superlatives you attribute to your god, and the tension between the roles of a Platonic creator and of a Platonic judge over those creations. Quote: There is no present, past or future time for Allah. He is outside of time. He is also outside of space. We are the ones travelling in time and space. God does not learn later, He knows from the beginning. You keep skipping the part where, in Islam, Allah ordained the outcome. He doesn't just know what will happen, due to his nonlinear perception of time. He commanded it to happen, because otherwise he's not omnipotent. And if he weren't Platonically Powerful, he wouldn't be worshipful. Quote: If God wants, He can throw the good people to hell instead of paradise. But He never does that. Because then he would cease to be perfectly just, and therefore cease to be worshipful. Quote: The fact that he knows what to do does not prevent his free will. No, the fact that the rules of justice are bigger than God means he has no free will on this point. If he doesn't act justly, then he's just one of the capricious gods of Olympus, not the Neo-Platonic god that everyone just says is the best of whatever property we're discussing. And therefore he's not worshipful. Quote: In the same way, we know that God will create us again and send us to paradise or hell. God created Jack the Ripper knowing what he would do. But in Islam, God knew that not just because he can run the surveillance video both forward into the future and backwards into the past at will. In Islam, God decreed that Jack the Ripper would do all those things. Jack must literally act out the script that God set forth for him, otherwise God isn't God. Jack's ignorance of his predestination doesn't equate to volition. But it when it comes time for Jack to justly be sent either to heaven or hell, then Jack has to somehow have had volition because a just judge can punish people only for what they knowingly did. That's when we just ignore the part that God set Jack up to fail—just as you're ignoring it now. Nor does Jack's ignorance of his predestination excuse God from creating him as an inevitable monster. We instruct the victims of others' evil to take comfort in God's justice in this life or the next. But that falls flat when you reveal that the victims suffered the knowable and avoidable consequences of God's creation of something he had decreed to be evil. Volition pales in the revelation that we are merely God's playthings. Quote: The fact that we know what Allah will do in the future does not contradict His free will. Yes, it really does. If Allah's behavior is constrained by rules he must follow in order to remain who you say he is, then he doesn't have free will. And all this comes from buying too much into Plato. If you buy into that philosophy of what must be worshipful, then you're stuck with a god full of unresolved contradiction.

26th January 2023, 08:48 AM	#2323
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Thor 2 The way the religious mind works (or refuses to work) will always be a mystery to the atheist. Logical argument contesting nonsensical beliefs, are just brushed aside because the faithful just knows he is right. I admire the persistence of those here that try however. Yes, I'm here for the theater of religious folk thrashing about in the throes of righteous self-justification. I'm all for people believing what they want about the deep mysteries. But when they try to convince me that what they believe is right and true, then they're on my turf. Some religious folk don't just tolerate mysterious thinking, they revel in it. How can Jesus be both fully God and fully man? Catholics just shrug and say, "It's a mystery! Ain't it gorgeous?" And it's not limited to esoteric bits of doctrine. When we confront them with the problem of evil, they just up the ante and tell us that the ways of God are mysterious. His justice is somehow different and better than ours, and we should just have faith. Justice by definition has to make sense to those subject to the judgment, so that falls flat. Ultimately it comes down to a religious person wanting to believe that by gobbling up the ragged tidbits of theology handed to him by people with questionable motives, he will have elevated his thinking above the rabble of sectarian philosophy. The religious person claims his knowledge is a revelation from on high, delivered in perfect, incontestable form from the lips of God—and therefore always the Right Answer even if it doesn't make sense. Therefore people like Emre can dismiss the hard-won understanding of philosophers as mere "nonsense statements," unworthy even of discussion. But all those great philosophers—at least early on—also believed in God and incorporated their understanding of deity into their otherwise deeply reasoned opinions. Even the great moralist Klaatu believed in the "Almighty Spirit." Religion has a love-hate relationship with secular philosophy. But in the end it's not about the great mysteries and whether there's a god at the heart of them. In the end it's about the individual's sense of entitlement connected to the belief that a God exists, and that the God considers that individual to be more favorable than those who don't believe.

27th January 2023, 06:27 AM	#2328
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle But under your formualtion I have no choice because there is no indeterminacy ahead of time. Because allah knows the outcome ahead of time, I am not in a position to be able to choose, because my choice could render allah's knowledge to be wrong, rendering him imperfect and therefore not the god of the qu'ran. No, you will make your own choice of your own free will. And Allah knows this choice you will make with your free will. You will choose one option and God knows that you have chosen it. You can choose the opposite, but you will not choose it. Let's say you have choices A and B in front of you. You will choose one of them. The fact that you will not choose the other option does not mean that you do not have free will. It shows that you have decided this with your free will.

27th January 2023, 06:33 AM	#2329
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle But the evil are only evil because allah made them so. No, human beings are created equal to good and evil. Even the revelation/verses within human beings direct people towards goodness. A human being who does not turn his back on the verses within him is orientated towards goodness and Islam.

27th January 2023, 06:37 AM	#2330
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by steenkh There is your problem: Your always-good God allows lots of wicked things. If we for a moment disregard the evil things that people do (because you claim they have a free will, even though they can only do their evil deeds if your God allows it), then we also have all the evil things that your God does all by himself, such as diseases and natural disasters. Suffering in this world serves a similar purpose as suffering in hell. To give everyone what they deserve. The pleasures of this world and paradise serve the same purpose. To give you what you deserve. https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611966.0

27th January 2023, 07:38 AM	#2332
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,227	Originally Posted by steenkh So infant babies get what they deserve when they are killed in a natural disaster? I think they get what Emre_1974tr's sadistic god decides they deserve. The god created them with the full knowledge that those babies would deserve to suffer and be punished for their choices.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

27th January 2023, 07:49 AM	#2333
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr No, you will make your own choice of your own free will. And Allah knows this choice you will make with your free will. You will choose one option and God knows that you have chosen it. You can choose the opposite, but you will not choose it. No. Islam teaches predestination, but you don't know the difference between that and foreknowledge, so you're not really discussing the philosophical dilemma in your beliefs. A person makes the choice that God has decreed will happen. That means it was never possible for that person to choose anything else, and therefore that person never had a choice. The abstract possibility of other outcomes does not equate to volition. The person's ignorance of their predicament does not equate to volition.

27th January 2023, 07:55 AM	#2334
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr No, human beings are created equal to good and evil. No. Every human being was created by a God who has decreed ahead of time what that person will do. Then if God has decreed that that person will have done evil, he condemns that person to hell. The fact that this person is ignorant of the process does not give him volition. Quote: Even the revelation/verses within human beings direct people towards goodness. A human being who does not turn his back on the verses within him is orientated towards goodness and Islam. Whether a person accepts or rejects religion has already been decided by your God. Islam teaches predestination. Predestination is a necessary consequence of the purported omnipotence of God. But then God must also redress evil. That is a necessary consequence of the purported perfect justice of God. These properties are in inherent conflict. You can't resolve them by simply ignoring the dilemma.

27th January 2023, 07:56 AM	#2335
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Suffering in this world serves a similar purpose as suffering in hell. To give everyone what they deserve. No. Not everyone who suffers "must" be guilty.

27th January 2023, 01:48 PM	#2336
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,280	Emre has a line of preaching that he fervently believes because Allah made him do it from even before he was born. He knows nothing else and can't conceive that he could be entirely mistaken in his beliefs. Allah has seen to it that he doesn't learn anything new, especially about life outside his own beliefs. That is the definition of a cult.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

27th January 2023, 02:52 PM	#2337
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,227	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Emre has a line of preaching that he fervently believes because Allah made him do it from even before he was born. He knows nothing else and can't conceive that he could be entirely mistaken in his beliefs. Allah has seen to it that he doesn't learn anything new, especially about life outside his own beliefs. That is the definition of a cult. And yet Emre's god created him anyway. In addition to being sadistic that god has an odd sense of humor.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

27th January 2023, 02:59 PM	#2338
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Steve I think they get what Emre_1974tr's sadistic god decides they deserve. The god created them with the full knowledge that those babies would deserve to suffer and be punished for their choices. Setting aside the whole predestination argument, this makes some sense in the Dharmic religions where a baby might be bringing along baggage from a former life. But in the linear lifespan religions (e.g., all the Abrahamic ones) you should start with a presumption of innocence. No, a baby who perishes in a natural disaster isn't being punished for his sins; that's absurd. Reconciling the injustice of the present world with an all-powerful, just, and merciful God necessitates the afterlife. If you suffered unjustly in this life, you will be rewarded all the more in the life to come. The soul of the baby who dies in a tsunami will be received gladly into heaven to be surrounded by fluffy bunnies and ice cream for all eternity. And that's how we jibe a horrible world with a supposedly benevolent God. This raises some red flags for those of us who don't believe in an afterlife, and for whom there is no moral safety net. We believe wrongs committed in this life should be redressed as much as possible in this life, when they have the most proximal and compensatory effect. People who say that those who suffer unjustly now will be rewarded later, by someone else, don't give me a lot of confidence in their moral compasses.

28th January 2023, 02:27 AM	#2339
Emre_1974tr Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Turkey Posts: 1,192	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr No, you will make your own choice of your own free will. And Allah knows this choice you will make with your free will. You will choose one option and God knows that you have chosen it. You can choose the opposite, but you will not choose it. Let's say you have choices A and B in front of you. You will choose one of them. The fact that you will not choose the other option does not mean that you do not have free will. It shows that you have decided this with your free will. Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve.

28th January 2023, 03:28 AM	#2340
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve. If that is the case then your Allah is a piece of fetid mephitic cockroach feces... you are welcome to it and its stench.... tsk tsk tsk.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

28th January 2023, 03:38 AM	#2341
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve. According to your statement Allah is a heinous sordid abject imbecile... he knows that what he is making is going to cause misery but he makes it still anyway... and then waits until the misery he knew will happen, takes place... and watches while the misery is occurring without lifting a finger to stop it... and then after the misery is over he still does nothing for eons while more misery he caused also takes place... and finally after all that misery,.. he ... the creator of all that misery... comes along and causes even more wretched misery with more hideous actions he does FOR ETERNITY. According to your very own admission... your Allah is a voyeuristic sadistic monstrous rotten filth.
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 28th January 2023 at 03:57 AM.

28th January 2023, 05:11 AM	#2342
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,280	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve. Do you understand that what you have written here is a pile of self-contradicting nonsense?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

28th January 2023, 06:44 AM	#2343
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander ~~Emre~~ Jesus has a line of preaching that he fervently believes because Allah [a.k.a. YHWH] made him do it from even before he was born. He knows nothing else and can't conceive that he could be entirely mistaken in his beliefs. Allah [a.k.a. YHWH] has seen to it that he doesn't learn anything new, especially about life outside his own beliefs. That is the definition of a cult. And cults are bad things... right?? Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Do you understand that what you have written here is a pile of self-contradicting nonsense? And that is a bad thing... right??
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Last edited by Leumas; 28th January 2023 at 06:47 AM.

28th January 2023, 08:27 AM	#2344
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 20,004	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve. If Allah is all-knowing, then Allah cannot possibly learn anything. If Allah is all-powerful, then Allah cannot possibly need or desire anything different from what already exists. With nothing to learn and nothing to accomplish, Allah has no rational reason to act. Therefore, either Allah acts irrationally, or does not act at all. In either case, there's no point trying to do anything to please him, appease him, or otherwise influence his actions. Prayer, for example, must be meaningless. Is it right for Allah to judge people based on whether or not they perform an act that his own declarations prove to be meaningless?
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

28th January 2023, 08:37 AM	#2345
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,227	Originally Posted by Myriad If Allah is all-knowing, then Allah cannot possibly learn anything. If Allah is all-powerful, then Allah cannot possibly need or desire anything different from what already exists. With nothing to learn and nothing to accomplish, Allah has no rational reason to act. Therefore, either Allah acts irrationally, or does not act at all. In either case, there's no point trying to do anything to please him, appease him, or otherwise influence his actions. Prayer, for example, must be meaningless. Is it right for Allah to judge people based on whether or not they perform an act that his own declarations prove to be meaningless? Seems the Allah concept, and by extension gods in general, is nonsense. Somehow I have known this for a rather long time. Persons who try to rationalize the supposed actions of a god invariably end up twisting themselves into such a knot that they end up confirming the nonsense that they are so desperate to deny.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

28th January 2023, 09:09 AM	#2346
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. Congratulations, you finally managed to state somewhat accurately the doctrine of predestination as taught in Islam. Quote: The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve. No, God predestined you to heaven or hell before he created you. It really is that simple. The pen has been set down and the page has dried. When Islamic teachers have to admit that judgment is only just when there is free will, and God is only God when there isn't, they do the same dance as the Catholics do: they declare that our puny human brains can't understand how this obvious contradiction is somehow nevertheless true. It all gets coded in religious-sounding language—praise be to Allah!—and the rubes get to feel like they believe in something everyone else is too stupid to figure out.

28th January 2023, 09:40 AM	#2347
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Steve Seems the Allah concept, and by extension gods in general, is nonsense. Somehow I have known this for a rather long time. Persons who try to rationalize the supposed actions of a god invariably end up twisting themselves into such a knot that they end up confirming the nonsense that they are so desperate to deny. Indeed, in some ways Zeus is more credible than Elohim or Allah. At least a being like Zeus could actually exist, rather than being described by a mass of inherent Neo-Platonic contradiction. "God is Love." But apparently his divine benevolence and power include Jeffrey Dahmer and H.H. Holmes.. It least we know Zeus is a capricious jerk.

28th January 2023, 11:09 AM	#2348
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,786	Hm, Emre chose not to comment about innocent infants being horribly destroyed in natural disasters. Is this a sort of not fighting a battle you are bound to lose?
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!

28th January 2023, 11:21 AM	#2349
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	Originally Posted by JayUtah Indeed, in some ways Zeus is more credible than Elohim or Allah. At least a being like Zeus could actually exist, rather than being described by a mass of inherent Neo-Platonic contradiction. "God is Love." But apparently his divine benevolence and power include Jeffrey Dahmer and H.H. Holmes.. It least we know Zeus is a capricious jerk. My favorite is Kali... she reminds me of some of my ex-wives and ex-girlfriends...
Leumas Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7,010	__________________ Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

28th January 2023, 12:26 PM	#2350
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,316	Originally Posted by JayUtah Indeed, in some ways Zeus is more credible than Elohim or Allah. At least a being like Zeus could actually exist, rather than being described by a mass of inherent Neo-Platonic contradiction. "God is Love." But apparently his divine benevolence and power include Jeffrey Dahmer and H.H. Holmes.. It least we know Zeus is a capricious jerk. And right there we see a reason, maybe THE reason, for the stubborn persistence of polytheism: One Great Overarching Poobah God Who Does It All is so damn illogical, so unsatisfying, so useless, that people gratefully make up and enjoy godlets galore. Famished monotheists always have a Satan and angels, along with rags and tags of supernatural holdovers from their heathen days: jinns, Jesuses, goblins, sprites, Catholic saints, Jos. Smiths, ghosts, Ascended Masters, Father Divines -- ow, my poor finger! I'm typing it down to a stub!
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

28th January 2023, 12:29 PM	#2351
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,227	Originally Posted by Leumas My favorite is Kali... she reminds me of some of my ex-wives and ex-girlfriends... http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5676574063.jpg Had a cat named Kali. Her name suited her. And she seemed to think she was a god.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

28th January 2023, 02:02 PM	#2352
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,423	Originally Posted by Steve Had a cat named Kali. Her name suited her. And she seemed to think she was a god. We can blame ancient Egyptians both for the concept of hell and for deifying cats. There’s a connection there somewhere.

28th January 2023, 02:05 PM	#2353
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 14,419	Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr Allah knows whether you will pray with your free will and what you will say in your prayer. And He writes your destiny in this direction from the beginning. In other words, your prayer does not change your destiny, your destiny was already written from the beginning in line with your prayers. The choices you made with your free will determined your destiny. Because God knows what you will do with your free will and what you deserve. Ahem ... If you are actually trying to get more converts to the Muslim religion, then posts like this are quite counter-productive.
	__________________ On 29JUL2022, 'Gaetan' said: "We all know here that the moderators are for the use of firearms and they don't mind if some people recieve a bullet in their head." A man's best friend is his dogma.

28th January 2023, 03:22 PM	#2354
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,290	Dog: “I'm living with this hairless ape. It loves me, gives me shelter, feeds me, and gives me attention whenever I ask for it. It must be a god!” Cat: “I'm living with this hairless ape. It loves me, gives me shelter, feeds me, and gives me attention whenever I ask for it. I must be a god!”
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

28th January 2023, 03:32 PM	#2355
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,316	Originally Posted by JayUtah We can blame ancient Egyptians both for the concept of hell and for deifying cats. There’s a connection there somewhere. Naw, the 'Gyptians said that your misbehaving soul would.be consumed by a god with one of their all-consonent names (he looked part hippopotamus, poor guy) and that was annihilation. No eternal fires for the riffraff; fuel was scarce enough already. But watching a genuinely hungry cat deal with a mouse -- Tib doesn't play with her food when she's in earnest -- might give rise to a creepy superstition about Last Things. If you're a Bronze Age priest with time on his hands.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.