IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Mark Basile

Reply
Old 25th August 2016, 09:17 AM   #441
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
History shows a lot of resistance to controversial scientific discoveries.

Because his findings supported Copernican science and conflicted with Aristotelian science, Galileo was convicted of suspicion of heresy and sentenced to a lifetime house arrest.

Today the state has so much power under the guise of National Security, there is very little protection from the whims of those in charge of threat assessment and response.

Today the Internet makes easy targets of those who, without the crutch of anonymity, publicly express controversial research.

When mild-mannered chemist Mark Basile got involved in researching nano-thermite, he, like other researchers, was not prepared for the personal cost.

If the mainstream media was not such a slave to job security and greed, they would have smitten questions like nano-thermite years ago.

How hard do you believe it would be for CBS to have obtained 9/11 WTC Ground Zero dust for a 60 MINUTES segment.

The lab costs would be a minor entry in the budget.

If the nano-thermite findings by Dr.Harrit et al cannot be reproduced independently, than that finding loses its legitimacy.

One of the two big smoking guns of 9/11 could be laid to rest.

Thanks to growing organizations like AE911Truth, few people are unaware of the continuing controversy surrounding 9/11.

My point is, the ratings for such News stories would be expected to be quite good, read profitable.

Stories like nano-thermite and the high speed collapse of WTC7 remain ignored or are scripted using pre-determined, unproven conclusions.

Oddly, profit and fame-motivated TV News producers avoid quality investigations into 9/11 truth claims.

Most certainly chemist Mark Basile never sought the suffocating attention that comes from being in the public eye.

It should be no cause for wonder that sincere individuals like Mark Basile, now avoid additional publicity about their works-in-progress.

At the end of the day, I expect that Mark Basile will either finish what he started or bow under the pressure and return all the money to his supporters.

It certainly is not enough money to tempt him, or any other working professional into ruining their professional and personal reputations.
Wow, did Basile pay for that smoke job? Double check that expense summary, Truthers.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:01 AM   #442
traxy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
Dear Georgio, I hardly ever check out this sad forum these days and apparently neither do the people that used to do it for me and send me updates, so leaving a question for me on the forum is not likely to get a response - if you have serious questions for me then email me at ziggizugam@gmail.com

For the record, JM Talboo and I of "debunkingthedebunkers" have taken care of the fundraising for and promotion of Mark Basile´s independent study, and as such we have been the spokespersons for that effort. I presume that Mr. Basile will be his own spokesperson once the study is ready for the public.

Mr. Basile received a new dust sample several months ago and his study of WTC dust and specific chips therein has been on-going in his spare time all this time - and some of this inquiry has included the use of new equipment.

An independent lab will receive samples for independent testing at some point but the money will most likely not be accounted for until it has all been spent. Some of it may have been spent already.

We do realize that this has taken a lot longer than initial plans but our money donors have all remained patient, and we do know that the wait will be well worth it.
Hey Ziggy, the initial scope of the independent study was very simple. Separate some suitable chips from the existing samples and submit them for examination. Given that the separation process was already well documented from the Active Thermitic Materials paper, this should have taken no more than a weekend. That initial proposal is what your donors thought they were funding. There was no mention of additional samples or new equipment or Mark spending 4 years and counting doing...something.

Separate chips, submit to an independent lab for testing, fully account for every dollar spent. That's it. What you're doing now is defrauding the hapless suckers that donated money.

At what point does Mark admit that his attempt at a simple independent study has gone too far afield and simply refund the donor money? Another year? Another 3 years? Or should your donors make peace with the fact that they will never see a dime of their money back?
traxy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:04 AM   #443
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
When mild-mannered chemist Mark Basile got involved in researching nano-thermite, he, like other researchers, was not prepared for the personal cost.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is just wasting his time and money.


Quote:
If the mainstream media was not such a slave to job security and greed, they would have smitten questions like nano-thermite years ago.

If they have questions about nano-thermite, why are they too lazy to do real research? If they had done so, there would be no questions. They would have determined from knowledge obtained from reputable sources why nano-thermite could not have been responsible for the collape of the WTC buildings.

Were you aware that 1/2 tons of thermite was unable to cut a vehicle in two sections? Now, let's take a look at the bulkiness of 1500 pounds of thermite just to burn through two steel legs of a tower.


1500 pounds of thermite needed to burn two steel legs

https://www.metabunk.org/sk/Popular_...229_103558.jpg


Did you really think that several truckloads of nano-thermite could have been transported above the 70th floors of the WTC Towers at the impact locations and remained intact on the steel columns when the impacts were so severe that they dislodged fire protection from their steel structures?


Quote:
How hard do you believe it would be for CBS to have obtained 9/11 WTC Ground Zero dust for a 60 MINUTES segment.

RJ Lee Group Dust Signature Report

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/t...Morphology.pdf

https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMi....org_rjlee.jpg


To sum that up, no evidence of thermite or nano-thermite found in the dust samples of the RJ Lee Group. Have you ever wondered why demolition companies do not use thermite to demolish tall steel frame buildings during explosive implosion operations?


Quote:
One of the two big smoking guns of 9/11 could be laid to rest.

Thanks to growing organizations like AE911Truth, few people are unaware of the continuing controversy surrounding 9/11.

Thanks to gullible truthers who are too lazy to do homework, Richard Gage of AE911Truth has been lauging all the way to the bank. It is apparent that you haven't read the damaging comments of those who have worked for AE911Truth in the past.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 10:26 AM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:24 AM   #444
MicahJava
Illuminator
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is just wasting his time and money.


If they have questions about nano-thermite, why are they too lazy to do real research? If they had done so, there would be no questions. They would have determined from knowledge obtained from reputable sources why nano-thermite could not have been responsible for the collape of the WTC buildings.

Were you aware that 1/2 tons of thermite was unable to cut a vehicle in two sections? Now, let's take a look at the bulkiness of 1500 pounds of thermite just to burn through two steel legs of a tower.


1500 pounds of thermite needed to burn two steel legs

https://www.metabunk.org/sk/Popular_...229_103558.jpg


Did you really think that several truckloads of nano-thermite could have been transported above the 70th floors of the WTC Towers at the impact locations and remained intact on the steel columns when the impacts were so severe that they dislodged fire protection of their steel structures?

RJ Lee Group Dust Signature Report

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/t...Morphology.pdf

https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMi....org_rjlee.jpg


To sum that up, no evidence of thermite or nano-thermite found in the dust samples of the RJ Lee Group. Have you ever wondered why demolition companies do not use thermite to demolish tall steel frame buildings during explosive implosion operations?

Thanks to gullible truthers who are too lazy to do homework, Richard Gage of AE911Truth has been lauging all the way to the bank. It is apparent that you haven't read the damaging comments of those who have worked for AE911Truth in the past.
Wrong pasta. With a special device, it would only take a few pounds of thermite to cut through a steel beam. You are also assuming that hypothetical thermite in the WTC would have been used to cut steel. I'm wondering if something like that could be used to pre-weaken steel before a final small blast kicks it out of place (thermite can be formulated to burn very slowly).
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:28 AM   #445
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Wrong pasta. With a special device, it would only take a few pounds of thermite to cut through a steel beam. You are also assuming that hypothetical thermite in the WTC would have been used to cut steel. I'm wondering if something like that could be used to pre-weaken steel before a final small blast kicks it out of place (thermite can be formulated to burn very slowly).

You are living in the world of Hollywood fiction, not reality.


What National Geographic has to say about thermite and 9/11/2001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMBjxyH9eg


.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 10:41 AM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 11:28 AM   #446
MicahJava
Illuminator
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
You are living in the world of Hollywood fiction, not reality.


What National Geographic has to say about thermite and 9/11/2001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMBjxyH9eg


.
Finally, an Apology From the National Geographic Channel by KEVIN RYAN

Johnathan Cole's homemade thermate cutter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Also, I think I remember Crazy Chainsaw once claimed that he made a similar thermite device once using a small amount.

Last edited by MicahJava; 25th August 2016 at 11:30 AM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 11:32 AM   #447
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Finally, an Apology From the National Geographic Channel by KEVIN RYAN

Johnathan Cole's homemade thermate cutter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Also, I think I remember Crazy Chainsaw once claimed that he made a similar thermite device once using a small amount.

You use Kevin Ryan as a source?? What a joke! You just don't seem to understand that you have been duped and it seems that you are unaware why demolition companies use cutter charges, not thermtie.

Once again, you are living in a world of Holllywood fiction. Just to let you know that your link is another prime example of how the truth movement has made a mockery of itself.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 11:42 AM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 11:40 AM   #448
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
Originally Posted by traxy View Post
At what point does Mark admit that his attempt at a simple independent study has gone too far afield and simply refund the donor money? Another year? Another 3 years? Or should your donors make peace with the fact that they will never see a dime of their money back?
Fact is, the donors are not the ones asking for updates. They don't need them because a promise of progress is good enough to keep the faith alive.

There's no real doubt that any chip sent is going to found to be paint. Every independent analysis has found this to be the case. A "truther" even did independent testing and they concluded the chips must have been switched in the mail.

My bet is Basile gave up and is hoping to get on with his life.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 11:54 AM   #449
MicahJava
Illuminator
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
You use Kevin Ryan as a source?? What a joke! You just don't seem to understand that you have been duped and it seems that you are unaware why demolition companies use cutter charges, not thermtie.

Once again, you are living in a world of Holllywood fiction. Just to let you know that your link is another prime example of how the truth movement has made a mockery of itself.
Too bad you'll never debunk anything Kevin Ryan ever said.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 11:58 AM   #450
traxy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Fact is, the donors are not the ones asking for updates. They don't need them because a promise of progress is good enough to keep the faith alive.

There's no real doubt that any chip sent is going to found to be paint. Every independent analysis has found this to be the case. A "truther" even did independent testing and they concluded the chips must have been switched in the mail.

My bet is Basile gave up and is hoping to get on with his life.
Rick Shaddock seems to be the one donor intent on making Basile accountable. I'm betting you're right, Basile knows the mystery chips are paint and at this point he's hoping everyone will just forget about the whole thing.
traxy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 12:01 PM   #451
traxy
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Too bad you'll never debunk anything Kevin Ryan ever said.
Ryan was one of the named authors of the Active Thermitic Materials paper. That one has been debunked to hell and back.
traxy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 12:06 PM   #452
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
Originally Posted by traxy View Post
Rick Shaddock seems to be the one donor intent on making Basile accountable. I'm betting you're right, Basile knows the mystery chips are paint and at this point he's hoping everyone will just forget about the whole thing.
He's the one that collected the money. He's also the person that would be on the hook if anyone demanded a return.

I wouldn't put any faith in anything Ziggi claims. Ricks on damage control.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 25th August 2016 at 12:08 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 12:28 PM   #453
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
...
For the record, JM Talboo and I of "debunkingthedebunkers" have taken care of the fundraising for and promotion of Mark Basile´s independent study, and as such we have been the spokespersons for that effort. I presume that Mr. Basile will be his own spokesperson once the study is ready for the public.

Mr. Basile received a new dust sample several months ago and his study of WTC dust and specific chips therein has been on-going in his spare time all this time - and some of this inquiry has included the use of new equipment.

An independent lab will receive samples for independent testing at some point but the money will most likely not be accounted for until it has all been spent. Some of it may have been spent already.
Hello Ziggi,

your blog "http://nanothermite911.blogspot.com" started on December 11, 2012, with an article "Fund Raiser for New Objective Study of WTC Dust".
The part that actually talks about Mark's upcoming study and the fundraiser links to:
http://aneta.org/markbasile_org/study/
That link is dead now, but you know, we know that "Aneta" is Rick Shaddock's website and project. It seems you were piggy-backing Aneta, and that actually Rick was the original fundraiser. Please comment on this!
(The "Debunking the Debunkers" blog had its first article on this on Dec 01, 2012, and it, too, refered to Rick's "Aneta" for further details. Quote: "If you feel like chipping in a couple of bucks for the new, single-blind study" - Mark isn't doing anything single-blind these days, as JM Talboo promised. On Dec. 11, 2012, another article by JM was about Rick talking about Mark's study and the fundraiser on "Free fall radio" - again linking "Aneta".)

(Unfortunately, Rick has excluded his domain from the internet archive "archive.org".)

You and JM wrote back then:
"Find out ... why we need more dust, money and independent scientists...

http://aneta.org/markbasile_org/study/

Chemical Engineer Mark Basile, who is featured in the second video below, will be conducting the new study.

100% of donated funds go to the research project for an objective study of the World Trade Center dust by submitting it to an independent laboratory which will not know where the dust came from to ensure absolute and unquestionable objectivity. "
You clearly, personally (you, Ziggi) back then raised the expectation that 100% the analysis would be done by independent labs - NOT by Mark himself. Mark would be at most selecting the specimens. Clearly, by apparently doing analysis himself (dependently), not via independent labs, Mark is ignoring and breaking that expectation. Please comment on this!

Remember how Mark himself explained, in December 2012, what his approach was:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Go to 40:22 minutes:
Host: "How is it different from the studies you've done before?"
Mark: "The only real difference would be that it would be somebody else who is actually running equipment, and somebody else actually coming up with the results, rather than me simply saying this is what I found."
"Somebody else running equipment" - why is Mark running equipment, and not somebody else??

Last, but not least, we all remember the two year "Mark Basile Progress Report, August 2014" that Mark had published at Rick's website. It promosed in clear terms:
"Once the best candidates are found, work will move to the phase where funds will be expended using independent facilities. Once funds begin to be spent monthly accountings will be made, no funds have been spent and all will be accounted for publicly."
Ziggi, you now tell us that "the money will most likely not be accounted for until it has all been spent. Some of it may have been spent already." - in other words, that the promise will be consciously, deliberately broken - but you provide no reason for breaking the promise. Please do so now!

Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
We do realize that this has taken a lot longer than initial plans but our money donors have all remained patient, and we do know that the wait will be well worth it.
I understand that Rick Shaddock is a donor, and had lost patience at some point. I'll ask him if he agrees with what you say.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 12:30 PM   #454
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Too bad you'll never debunk anything Kevin Ryan ever said.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to debunk Kevin Ryan, just common sense is all that is needed.


Kevin Ryan debunked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pJ6cS3GZBw


1000 pounds of thermite could not cut a SUV


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpa1K51os4
.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 01:02 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 12:56 PM   #455
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Johnathan Cole's homemade thermate cutter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Just to let you know that your video links has been used to make a mockery of the truth movement. Once again, figure why demoltion companies use cutter charges, not thermite, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 01:03 PM   #456
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,098
Skyeagle409:
Why do you keep derailing these threads with long treatises on how much you know about demolition?
Please stick to the subject matter and carry the debunking to the appropriate thread.
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 01:40 PM   #457
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
The fact of the matter is a dust sample sent to an independent lab who then separated red chips using a magnet and then having a look at them using optical and electron microscopy would take less than a day and cost less than $1000.

It's an afternoons work to do that analysis. Maybe another afternoon for a couple of FTIR test. Then a day to gather the info and email it.

The reason Basile hasn't sent a single sample is he knows that if he did the lab would conclude that the red/gray chips are paint adhered to oxidised steel and hence show how wrong he, Harrit and the other truthers were when they did the farce of a Bentham paper. He knows the chips are paint, which is why he refuses to send a single one to a lab.

No dust sample will ever see an independent lab.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 02:12 PM   #458
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Most certainly chemist Mark Basile never sought the suffocating attention that comes from being in the public eye.

It should be no cause for wonder that sincere individuals like Mark Basile, now avoid additional publicity about their works-in-progress.
What fraction of 1% of 1% of the 1st world population do you suppose has even heard of him? 1%?

What a laugh. Basile shows all the signs of being a petty crook, safe in the knowledge that *nobody cares*.

Meanwhile, if you're still here, did you ever address that big ol' question about how a paint-thin layer of thermitic material could possibly damage massive steel members? We're waiting to be illuminated on that subject ... waiting ... waiting ....
__________________
"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 02:25 PM   #459
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
...
I understand that Rick Shaddock is a donor, and had lost patience at some point. I'll ask him if he agrees with what you say.
I did email Rick, with Ziggi and JM Talboo in Cc.
Rick did respond already (and fixed the link I reported broken). Since he is a banned member here, I must not post on his behalf, but I can say that he does not corroborate Ziggi's claims, and is one unhappy donor, so Ziggi's claim that "our money donors have all remained patient" is already unmasked as untrue.

We need to see evidence from Ziggi that he is in fact in contact with Mark Basile, has in fact run the fundraising, etc. All these are unsupported bare assertions as of now.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 02:41 PM   #460
DaveThomasNMSR
Muse
 
DaveThomasNMSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 877
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Finally, an Apology From the National Geographic Channel by KEVIN RYAN

Johnathan Cole's homemade thermate cutter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Also, I think I remember Crazy Chainsaw once claimed that he made a similar thermite device once using a small amount.
MicahJava, it appears you are trying to say that skyeagle409's video, "What National Geographic has to say about thermite and 9/11/2001," was "retracted" by NatGeo, who "apologized" for making that video.

This is not true.

In fact, Kevin Ryan's assertion that NatGeo was going to "apologize" was pure speculation:
Quote:
Fortunately, this week it was announced that the NGT's parent, the National Geographic Channel (NG Channel), is scheduled to broadcast a new television special covering the science behind the events of 9/11. We can only assume that this new show is meant to correct the record and apologize for the company's false statements that contributed to the ongoing wars
Well, that assumption turned out to be Wrong. Here's Dick Gage's assessment of the National Geographic show Ryan said would include an "apology":
Quote:
In actuality, this so-called documentary was a de facto hit piece, an assault on truth, and obviously skewed in support of the government's explanation of 9/11 and against "9/11 truth." Whatever their intentions, the producers failed completely in any supposed attempt at balanced reporting and a fair presentation of both sides of the story.
So, you're wrong. The NatGeo video skyeagle409 posted, of the failed attempt to melt a girder with thermite, has NOT been "debunked".

Why are you posting here, anyway? You've lost all credibility after claiming that fire isn't real.

That's some of the most obvious trolling I've ever seen on this board.

That's all I have to say on these matters.
DaveThomasNMSR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 02:43 PM   #461
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Skyeagle409:
Why do you keep derailing these threads with long treatises on how much you know about demolition?
Please stick to the subject matter and carry the debunking to the appropriate thread.

How about addressing the person for whom I was responding to! I do believe that I mentioned thermite not doing this, and thermite not doing that, so what were they looking for in the WTC dust samples?

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 03:04 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 02:56 PM   #462
MicahJava
Illuminator
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
MicahJava, it appears you are trying to say that skyeagle409's video, "What National Geographic has to say about thermite and 9/11/2001," was "retracted" by NatGeo, who "apologized" for making that video.

This is not true.

In fact, Kevin Ryan's assertion that NatGeo was going to "apologize" was pure speculation:


Well, that assumption turned out to be Wrong. Here's Dick Gage's assessment of the National Geographic show Ryan said would include an "apology":


So, you're wrong. The NatGeo video skyeagle409 posted, of the failed attempt to melt a girder with thermite, has NOT been "debunked".

Why are you posting here, anyway? You've lost all credibility after claiming that fire isn't real.

That's some of the most obvious trolling I've ever seen on this board.

That's all I have to say on these matters.
"Hey Jim, these people are saying that thermite could be used to melt through giant steel beams. Should we try making a thermite cutter charge that's firmly focused on a beam, similar to regular explosive demolition charges?"

"Naaaah just get some heavy duty trash bags of thermite and light them near the column!"
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 03:04 PM   #463
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,098
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
How about addressing the person for whom I was responding to!
I'll have to change it a bunch....
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 03:06 PM   #464
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,098
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
"Hey Jim, these people are saying that thermite could be used to melt through giant steel beams. Should we try making a thermite cutter charge that's firmly focused on a beam, similar to regular explosive demolition charges?"

"Naaaah just get some heavy duty trash bags of thermite and light them near the column!"
Rather than demonstrate your ignorance about reality and possibilities by derailing the thread on a completely unrelated subject, please do so in the appropriate thread.
( a worthless request, as truthers ignore any advice toward reality....)
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 03:06 PM   #465
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
"[color="SeaGreen"]Hey Jim, these people are saying that thermite could be used to melt through giant steel beams.

Try it on the thick steel columns of the WTC Towers and see how far you won't get. The fact there was no evidence of thermite in the dust sample is a major clue.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 03:08 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 04:17 PM   #466
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
...Why are you posting here, anyway? You've lost all credibility after claiming that fire isn't real. ...
Why are you reading what he writes?
Why are you even responding - knowing you are off-topic?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 04:20 PM   #467
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Rather than demonstrate your ignorance about reality and possibilities by derailing the thread on a completely unrelated subject, please do so in the appropriate thread.
( a worthless request, as truthers ignore any advice toward reality....)
The vast majority here sailing happily far out in off-topic seas are actually debunkers. skyeagle409 posts almost exclusively off-topic.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 04:44 PM   #468
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,692
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
The fact of the matter is a dust sample sent to an independent lab who then separated red chips using a magnet and then having a look at them using optical and electron microscopy would take less than a day and cost less than $1000.

It's an afternoons work to do that analysis. Maybe another afternoon for a couple of FTIR test. Then a day to gather the info and email it.

The reason Basile hasn't sent a single sample is he knows that if he did the lab would conclude that the red/gray chips are paint adhered to oxidised steel and hence show how wrong he, Harrit and the other truthers were when they did the farce of a Bentham paper. He knows the chips are paint, which is why he refuses to send a single one to a lab.

No dust sample will ever see an independent lab.
My own working hypothesis is that he (or an independent lab hired by him) already has done some analysis and he doesn't like the results.

And it makes me wonder if the "opposition" that has been reported has to do with the results rather than with the willingness to do the analysis.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 04:44 PM   #469
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
... high speed collapse of WTC7 ...
Over 16 seconds for collapse is not high speed. Thermite is a fantasy started by Jones, and remains evidence free.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 06:19 PM   #470
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Finally, an Apology From the National Geographic Channel by KEVIN RYAN

Johnathan Cole's homemade thermate cutter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Also, I think I remember Crazy Chainsaw once claimed that he made a similar thermite device once using a small amount.
Yes I did but only a fool would mix thermite oxygen cutting, and fire.

The easiest way to cut steel is too burn though it with oxygen, as in the original bridge girder cutting tool show in Jones's original paper.

The Areojel thermite mixture claimed by Jones & Harrit would be as harmful to the steel as unpoped pop corn.
Jones thought that Areojel thermite was explosive because it could do pressure work.
It makes a good fire work propellent. However it was never an explosive.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 06:28 PM   #471
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,895
DDuplicate.

Last edited by Crazy Chainsaw; 25th August 2016 at 06:29 PM.
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 06:33 PM   #472
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,617
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Skyeagle409:
Why do you keep derailing these threads with long treatises on how much you know about demolition?
Please stick to the subject matter and carry the debunking to the appropriate thread.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 07:05 PM   #473
HotRodDeluxe
Muse
 
HotRodDeluxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 692
Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
History shows a lot of resistance to controversial scientific discoveries.

Because his findings supported Copernican science and conflicted with Aristotelian science, Galileo was convicted of suspicion of heresy and sentenced to a lifetime house arrest.

Today the state has so much power under the guise of National Security, there is very little protection from the whims of those in charge of threat assessment and response.

Today the Internet makes easy targets of those who, without the crutch of anonymity, publicly express controversial research.

When mild-mannered chemist Mark Basile got involved in researching nano-thermite, he, like other researchers, was not prepared for the personal cost.

If the mainstream media was not such a slave to job security and greed, they would have smitten questions like nano-thermite years ago.

How hard do you believe it would be for CBS to have obtained 9/11 WTC Ground Zero dust for a 60 MINUTES segment.

The lab costs would be a minor entry in the budget.

If the nano-thermite findings by Dr.Harrit et al cannot be reproduced independently, than that finding loses its legitimacy.

One of the two big smoking guns of 9/11 could be laid to rest.

Thanks to growing organizations like AE911Truth, few people are unaware of the continuing controversy surrounding 9/11.

My point is, the ratings for such News stories would be expected to be quite good, read profitable.

Stories like nano-thermite and the high speed collapse of WTC7 remain ignored or are scripted using pre-determined, unproven conclusions.

Oddly, profit and fame-motivated TV News producers avoid quality investigations into 9/11 truth claims.

Most certainly chemist Mark Basile never sought the suffocating attention that comes from being in the public eye.

It should be no cause for wonder that sincere individuals like Mark Basile, now avoid additional publicity about their works-in-progress.

At the end of the day, I expect that Mark Basile will either finish what he started or bow under the pressure and return all the money to his supporters.

It certainly is not enough money to tempt him, or any other working professional into ruining their professional and personal reputations.
JAYZUS
HotRodDeluxe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:09 PM   #474
Ziggi
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 374
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Hello Ziggi,

your blog "http://nanothermite911.blogspot.com" started on December 11, 2012, with an article "Fund Raiser for New Objective Study of WTC Dust".
The part that actually talks about Mark's upcoming study and the fundraiser links to:
http://aneta.org/markbasile_org/study/
That link is dead now, but you know, we know that "Aneta" is Rick Shaddock's website and project. It seems you were piggy-backing Aneta, and that actually Rick was the original fundraiser. Please comment on this!.
Oystein, this blog you refer to http://nanothermite911.blogspot.com is in fact run by JM Talboo just as he runs our main blog 911debunkers.blogspot...I contribute to both but cannot call them "mine" - that honor belongs to JMT. I and JMT posted ALL the original articles and updates for the fundraiser via these blogspots and Rick Shaddock simply copied them to his ANETA page. Our blogspot articles referred readers to Rick´s ANETA page because it hosted the donation page for the project http://aneta.org/911Experiments_com/WTCdust/index.htm - that was Rick´s part in all this - and since Talboo and I were handling the fundraising and promotion for the study we obviously referred readers to the page where they could donate money http://aneta.org/911Experiments_com/WTCdust/index.htm. Some of our short promotional articles said something like "if you want to know more about the study/why you should donate then clink this link" and that would refer them to the ANETA page that hosted the donation...and if people did go there and choose to read more about the study before donating money Rick had link named
Quote:
Fund Raiser Information
...that lead them right back to a specific blogspot essay by myself and Talboo, reposted on ANETA.

Keep scrolling down Ricks donation page and you see that Rick provides links for study updates, again linking to Talboo/Zugam blogspot page and a separate link to a status update report from Basile given to me then posted by Talboo on that blogspot page - again Rick just reposts it as his own PDF:

Quote:
Most Recent Status Report

Report on Independent Lab Study of the WTC dust
project_status_august_2014.pdf

Nanothermite911.blogspot.com
And near the bottom of Ricks donation page he again reposts my work from Talboo´s blogspot to provide his readers with an update

Quote:
Sunday, August 2, 2015

Mark Basile Red/Gray Chip Study Back on Track

By Ziggi Zugam
So Oystein, Rick´s page was basically copying/relying on our work not the other way around. And for the record, JM Talboo is the originator of this project and the "original fundraiser"...Rick and I came on board later to help JMT.



Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
.......You and JM wrote back then:

....You clearly, personally (you, Ziggi) back then raised the expectation that 100% the analysis would be done by independent labs - NOT by Mark himself. Mark would be at most selecting the specimens. Clearly, by apparently doing analysis himself (dependently), not via independent labs, Mark is ignoring and breaking that expectation. Please comment on this!.
WOW Oystein, how impressive, you accuse me here of having fooled donors when I ran the fundraiser yet you also claim a couple of hours later in another post that there is no evidence that I ever ran the fundraising..http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=459
Quote:
We need to see evidence from Ziggi that he is in fact in contact with Mark Basile, has in fact run the fundraising, etc. All these are unsupported bare assertions as of now
Anyway, it should be blatantly obvious that we raised money to pay independent labs to replicate tests that Basile has done. Basile has been adding to his list of tests that will need to be replicated, and once done adding to that list the independent replication tests can begin and the money raised gets spent on that. Very simple. There is no conflict. And you of all people that has spent years making up stories about Harrit et al not doing tests with enough kinds of equipment should applaud Basile for expanding that list instead of trying to make it look suspicious.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post

...Ziggi, you now tell us that "the money will most likely not be accounted for until it has all been spent. Some of it may have been spent already." - in other words, that the promise will be consciously, deliberately broken - but you provide no reason for breaking the promise. Please do so now!.
What non-sense. Rick posted a partial email from me as a project update a few months ago where this was discussed. Basile is too busy to meet deadlines/schedules for regular project updates as originally planned so the plan changed. You know this because someone posted a comment on this forum to notify you all of this update: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=334

All the money goes to independent tests as promised and it will all be accounted for once it has been spent as promised. The only difference is that the accounting will most likely be done in one fell swoop once it is all done instead of in installments as money is spent. No need to get your nickers all twisted up dear.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I understand that Rick Shaddock is a donor, and had lost patience at some point. I'll ask him if he agrees with what you say.
I was referring to donors from the general public not people that worked on the project. Rick recently assured both JMT and Basile that no donors have asked for their money back.

Last edited by Ziggi; 25th August 2016 at 10:20 PM.
Ziggi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:30 PM   #475
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
My own working hypothesis is that he (or an independent lab hired by him) already has done some analysis and he doesn't like the results.

As far as I am concern, earlier dust sample reports had summed it up fairly well so there is no need to continue investigations. It seems that ignorance runs rampant in their camp because if they understood anything about thermite, nano-thermite, structural steel and structural load redistribution, they would understand why the discussion and calls for further investigations are unwarranted and unnecessary.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 25th August 2016 at 10:39 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2016, 10:48 PM   #476
Redwood
Graduate Poster
 
Redwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,557
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
The fact of the matter is a dust sample sent to an independent lab who then separated red chips using a magnet and then having a look at them using optical and electron microscopy would take less than a day and cost less than $1000.

It's an afternoons work to do that analysis. Maybe another afternoon for a couple of FTIR test. Then a day to gather the info and email it.

The reason Basile hasn't sent a single sample is he knows that if he did the lab would conclude that the red/gray chips are paint adhered to oxidised steel and hence show how wrong he, Harrit and the other truthers were when they did the farce of a Bentham paper. He knows the chips are paint, which is why he refuses to send a single one to a lab.

No dust sample will ever see an independent lab.
Truthers: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE empty your bank accounts, hock or sell any possessions you can spare, and donate the proceeds to Mark Basile! He's running desperately low on beer, pizza, hookers, and high-grade weed and needs more money!
Redwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2016, 12:01 AM   #477
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,488
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
The reason Basile hasn't sent a single sample is he knows that if he did the lab would conclude that the red/gray chips are paint adhered to oxidised steel and hence show how wrong he, Harrit and the other truthers were when they did the farce of a Bentham paper. He knows the chips are paint, which is why he refuses to send a single one to a lab.

It is amazing how gullible some folks are and how they easily knee down to these con artist. Those same con artist have been laughing all the way to the bank over the years because they know they can continue to prey on such gullible folks in order to lighten the load of their wallets.

The red/gray chip debate had me shaking me head in disbeilef as I tried to understand how some folks could have been so gullible as to believe such nonsense.

Simply amazing!!
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2016, 02:26 AM   #478
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
The fact of the matter is a dust sample sent to an independent lab who then separated red chips using a magnet and then having a look at them using optical and electron microscopy would take less than a day and cost less than $1000.

It's an afternoons work to do that analysis. Maybe another afternoon for a couple of FTIR test. Then a day to gather the info and email it.

The reason Basile hasn't sent a single sample is he knows that if he did the lab would conclude that the red/gray chips are paint adhered to oxidised steel and hence show how wrong he, Harrit and the other truthers were when they did the farce of a Bentham paper. He knows the chips are paint, which is why he refuses to send a single one to a lab.

No dust sample will ever see an independent lab.
That does seem to be the case, and furthermore it appears the reason Basile now knows the chips aren't thermite is because he changed the terms of the project to include his own pretesting. And the obvious reason he did that was because he realized, just a little too late, that sending paint chips to a lab would kill the thermite idiocy (and his ego investment in it). And the reason he can't find any thermite in the paint chips is also pretty obvious, despite Ziggi's laughable attempt to blow smoke up everyone's butts.

What we have here, then, is a test of intellectual integrity, and Basile and Ziggi are failing.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2016, 06:06 AM   #479
JSanderO
Illuminator
 
JSanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: nyc
Posts: 3,232
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post

What we have here, then, is a test of intellectual integrity, and Basile and Ziggi are failing.
Of course correct... with all the money that AE raises... they could fund several studies of samples from the 911 samples to multiple independent labs who have no skin in the game.

Dear Lab,
Please find samples of some material we would like a comprehensive chemical analysis of. I thank you in advance for your timely report.
Thank you,
John Doe.

Easy peasy!
JSanderO is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2016, 06:49 AM   #480
benthamitemetric
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 571
If some truther has dust from the world trade center and can prove its chain of custody and that it hasn't been tampered with, I will personally pay for its chemical composition to be tested in a reputable independent lab. We could have it done next week.

This may be the saddest and most transparent long con of them all. How people can look at 6 years of failure to do an independent study and not see the conmen for what they are is beyond me.
benthamitemetric is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:17 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.