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Old 26th August 2016, 08:03 AM   #481
JSanderO
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
If some truther has dust from the world trade center and can prove its chain of custody and that it hasn't been tampered with, I will personally pay for its chemical composition to be tested in a reputable independent lab. We could have it done next week.

This may be the saddest and most transparent long con of them all. How people can look at 6 years of failure to do an independent study and not see the conmen for what they are is beyond me.
The question is why? Are they really con men or do they BELIEVE their own BS? And this belief drives them to commit all manner of intellectual "dishonesties"? I think Gage is really doing much better in his 911 career than he was as an architect... but the others? Hard to figure out that one? Huge waste of human resources involved in scamming people.
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Old 26th August 2016, 08:32 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
If some truther has dust from the world trade center and can prove its chain of custody and that it hasn't been tampered with, I will personally pay for its chemical composition to be tested in a reputable independent lab. We could have it done next week.

This may be the saddest and most transparent long con of them all. How people can look at 6 years of failure to do an independent study and not see the conmen for what they are is beyond me.
Many actually do believe, and I use the 'belief' term literally, that this was a massive plot by an extra-governmental(either third party or rogue inside faction) organization, and that many large scale events like this are as well.

Certainly Balsamo of PfT qualifies in that regard. Seems that Szamboti does as well. Its a fringe extreme right, and extreme left belief, with minor differences between the two.

Gage? Yes, I think he has to convince himself that this is the case in order to continue. I agree with JSO that he is probably doing as well or better financially, as a speaker for AE911T than he was as a low level architect in the USA. However there is the 'hero' factor there as well. He has a cadre looking up to him as the leader in the 911truth movement. He avoids the tact that a Fetzer or A.Jones takes and thus remains more 'mainstream', and he gets to jaunt around the world.
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Old 26th August 2016, 08:50 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
What we have here, then, is a test of intellectual integrity, and Basile and Ziggi are failing.
Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Of course correct... with all the money that AE raises... they could fund several studies of samples from the 911 samples to multiple independent labs who have no skin in the game.

Dear Lab,
Please find samples of some material we would like a comprehensive chemical analysis of. I thank you in advance for your timely report.
Thank you,
John Doe.

Easy peasy!
Dear customer,

Thank you for your submission.

We would like to accept your business but in all conscience we have to advise you that without more specific instructions regarding what you hope to find, a “comprehensive chemical analysis” will likely create a substantial billing and still not determine every substance contained in your ‘dust sample’.



Not so “easy peasy”. That dust represents microscopic particles of all that was once the World Trade Center.

Mark Basile has to submit his sample with a request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper — without revealing what it is that he expects them to find.

When it comes to 9/11, everyone has “skin in the game.”
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Old 26th August 2016, 08:59 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post

Mark Basile has to submit his sample with a request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper
Could you site those and show how they were documented in the paper? In other words, which test prove they found "thermite"?
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Old 26th August 2016, 09:10 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Over 16 seconds for collapse is not high speed. Thermite is a fantasy started by Jones, and remains evidence free.

Mark Basile's Study is a complete waste of time. Dust sample results found no evidence of thermite and yet, the money continued to flow in.
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Old 26th August 2016, 09:16 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Not so “easy peasy”. That dust represents microscopic particles of all that was once the World Trade Center.

And yet, no evidence of thermite was ever found in earlier dust sample examinations, which simply means that no further dust sample investigation is warranted.
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Old 26th August 2016, 09:17 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Dear customer,

Thank you for your submission.

We would like to accept your business but in all conscience we have to advise you that without more specific instructions regarding what you hope to find, a “comprehensive chemical analysis” will likely create a substantial billing and still not determine every substance contained in your ‘dust sample’.



Not so “easy peasy”. That dust represents microscopic particles of all that was once the World Trade Center.

Mark Basile has to submit his sample with a request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper — without revealing what it is that he expects them to find.

When it comes to 9/11, everyone has “skin in the game.”
The paper came out 6 years ago. 6 years. He's had more than enough time to outline a reasonable series of tests. I imagine a competent chemist would be able to think through such a list in consultation with other interested parties/experts in a weekend.
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Old 26th August 2016, 09:46 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Mark Basile has to submit his sample with a request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper — without revealing what it is that he expects them to find.
Absolutely wrong. Duplicating the "key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper" is obviously not the problem, since "truther scientists" seem to be incapable of properly interpreting those results, even if we take them at face value. There are perfectly straight-forward ways of determining whether or not the chips are thermitic, and the problem is that the Harrit team didn't use any of them and instead relied on faulty reasoning. Why repeat such an inadequate study?
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Old 26th August 2016, 09:51 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
The paper came out 6 years ago. 6 years. He's had more than enough time to outline a reasonable series of tests. I imagine a competent chemist would be able to think through such a list in consultation with other interested parties/experts in a weekend.
Actually it was 8 years ago, not 6.

The entire scope of the project as outlined by Mark himself consisted of separating some suitable chips and sending them to a lab for identification. Since he already knew how to separate the chips based on the initial paper, this should have taken no time at all.

How much longer do his donors have to wait Ziggy?
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Old 26th August 2016, 10:04 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by traxy View Post
Actually it was 8 years ago, not 6.

The entire scope of the project as outlined by Mark himself consisted of separating some suitable chips and sending them to a lab for identification. Since he already knew how to separate the chips based on the initial paper, this should have taken no time at all.

How much longer do his donors have to wait Ziggy?
I stand corrected--8 years. In the time that some people can graduate from high school and obtain a PhD in chemistry, Mark Basile can't figure out which tests he wants a lab to perform on these chips? Can anyone defending him really believe this nonsense?
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Old 26th August 2016, 11:31 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Absolutely wrong. Duplicating the "key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper" is obviously not the problem, since "truther scientists" seem to be incapable of properly interpreting those results, even if we take them at face value. There are perfectly straight-forward ways of determining whether or not the chips are thermitic, and the problem is that the Harrit team didn't use any of them and instead relied on faulty reasoning. Why repeat such an inadequate study?
I said it years ago. Why not just submit the papers data to qualified labs and universities and get a proper "peer review" from experts in the field?

Fact is, the paper does not release all the data (I wonder if it was national security concerns.....). The "fact" I love the best is they claim not all chips are "thermite", you need special knowledge to chose the right ones, although they can't document a separation procedure to determine this.
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Last edited by DGM; 26th August 2016 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 26th August 2016, 12:06 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Fact is, the paper does not release all the data (I wonder if it was national security concerns.....). The "fact" I love the best is they claim not all chips are "thermite", you need special knowledge to chose the right ones, although they can't document a separation procedure to determine this.
MM or Criteria (or both?) made this point nmerous times. The Bentham crew "knew" which were the correct candidate chips, but didn't explain how.
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Old 26th August 2016, 12:35 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
MM or Criteria (or both?) made this point nmerous times. The Bentham crew "knew" which were the correct candidate chips, but didn't explain how.
This was an admission that only came about after a couple people tried to recreate the study.

I'm still waiting for an updated separation criterion based on their admission so the study can be duplicated. I won't hold my breath..............
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Old 26th August 2016, 01:16 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Dear customer,

Thank you for your submission.

We would like to accept your business but in all conscience we have to advise you that without more specific instructions regarding what you hope to find, a “comprehensive chemical analysis” will likely create a substantial billing and still not determine every substance contained in your ‘dust sample’.



Not so “easy peasy”. That dust represents microscopic particles of all that was once the World Trade Center.

Mark Basile has to submit his sample with a request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper — without revealing what it is that he expects them to find.
I thought Mark Basile was submitting red grey chips not a composite dust sample.

Even if it is a dust sample, you said that there would be a "request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper ", which would include the separation of component particles, and not a full and complete study on all the constituents of the dust.

Last edited by jaydeehess; 26th August 2016 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 26th August 2016, 01:20 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
I stand corrected--8 years. In the time that some people can graduate from high school and obtain a PhD in chemistry, Mark Basile can't figure out which tests he wants a lab to perform on these chips? Can anyone defending him really believe this nonsense?
10 years, a nice round decade, sounds good.

Once again I ask posters to recall how fondly truthers feel toward NIST taking a few years to complete the WTC7 final report (even though NIST stated clearly why this would be the last of all reports to be completed).
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Old 26th August 2016, 01:31 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
I thought Mark Basile was submitting red grey chips not a composite dust sample.

Even if it is a dust sample, you said that there would be a "request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper ", which would include the separation of component particles, and not a full and complete study on all the constituents of the dust.
You screwed up..........

Criteria, was only responding to the one post not the issue as a whole.

<looks down at my signature>



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Old 26th August 2016, 02:02 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You screwed up..........

Criteria, was only responding to the one post not the issue as a whole.

<looks down at my signature>

Yep, caught that. He was straw-manning JSO's "some material", and "comprehensive chemical analysis".

Neither is at issue since it's not supposedly a case of random dust material, nor, according to Criteria (the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper) a case of a full and intensive chemical analysis.
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Old 26th August 2016, 02:47 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The "fact" I love the best is they claim not all chips are "thermite", you need special knowledge to chose the right ones, although they can't document a separation procedure to determine this.
I don't remember that from the paper. My recollection is that along the paper, all chips they found were treated as if they were thermite, and that only later did some people in this forum (and probably others) start to claim that you need that special knowledge.

If I'm wrong, could you point me to a paragraph in the paper where they say you need special knowledge to tell thermitic chips apart?
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Old 26th August 2016, 03:01 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The "fact" I love the best is they claim not all chips are "thermite", you need special knowledge to chose the right ones, although they can't document a separation procedure to determine this.
Yep, and why can't someone with that "special knowledge" just help Basile get this show on the road, since his psychic abilities seem to be failing him?

If Basile himself can't find any thermite -- which is what his study morphed into -- then my "update on the Mark Basile Study" is that it has failed to confirm the Bentham paper claims, without needing confirmation from an independent lab. The unneeded money can now be returned; no hard feelings.
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Old 26th August 2016, 03:04 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I don't remember that from the paper. My recollection is that along the paper, all chips they found were treated as if they were thermite, and that only later did some people in this forum (and probably others) start to claim that you need that special knowledge.

If I'm wrong, could you point me to a paragraph in the paper where they say you need special knowledge to tell thermitic chips apart?
Your recollection is correct. There is no mention of this in the paper.

This was an excuse made after the paper was published.
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Old 27th August 2016, 04:17 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Mark Basile has to submit his sample with a request that guarantees the lab will duplicate the key aspects of the 2009 Bentham paper — without revealing what it is that he expects them to find.
Then why hasn't done so? The very first thing a lab would need to do in order to duplicate the Harrit et al paper is to draw a magnet across a sample of the dust to separate out red/gray chips of interest for further study.

Quote:
The red/gray chips are attracted by a magnet, which facilitates collection and separation of the chips from the bulk of the dust. A small permanent magnet in its own plastic bag was used to attract and collect the chips from dust samples. The chips are typically small but readily discernible by eye due to their distinctive color. They are of variable size with major dimensions of roughly 0.2 to 3 mm. Thicknesses vary from roughly 10 to 100 microns for each layer (red and gray).
Page 9.

Quote:
All of the chips used in the study had a gray layer and a red layer and were attracted by a magnet.
Page 10.

Why is Mark Basile ignoring a key aspect of the paper? The independent lab should be performing the separation.

Why is Mark Basile separating chips and looking at candidate chips to send to a lab? Why has he not found a single suitable chip in 4 years?

I suspect that Basile is separating chips and then analysing them only to find every single one is red paint and therefore he's stalling from actually sending dust or chips to a lab. I bet he hopes the whole thing will just be forgotten.
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Old 27th August 2016, 05:21 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Then why hasn't done so? The very first thing a lab would need to do in order to duplicate the Harrit et al paper is to draw a magnet across a sample of the dust to separate out red/gray chips of interest for further study.

Page 9.

Page 10.

Why is Mark Basile ignoring a key aspect of the paper? The independent lab should be performing the separation.

Why is Mark Basile separating chips and looking at candidate chips to send to a lab? Why has he not found a single suitable chip in 4 years?

I suspect that Basile is separating chips and then analysing them only to find every single one is red paint and therefore he's stalling from actually sending dust or chips to a lab. I bet he hopes the whole thing will just be forgotten.
Either that or he is trying to fake and manufacture a material, similar to the paint chips that would be thermitic, he knows his backers would not accept anything else but a finding of thermite, and he has proven his intellectually dishonest behavior.
Nothing but the goo will do even if the goo isn't the same red goo.
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Old 27th August 2016, 06:35 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Either that or he is trying to fake and manufacture a material, similar to the paint chips that would be thermitic, he knows his backers would not accept anything else but a finding of thermite, and he has proven his intellectually dishonest behavior.
Nothing but the goo will do even if the goo isn't the same red goo.
My impression was that Basile was sincere and intended to be honest about the study, so I don't think he deserves that sort of accusation. Until proven otherwise, I'm assuming he's just having some difficulty walking back to reality.
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Old 27th August 2016, 06:41 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
My impression was that Basile was sincere and intended to be honest about the study, so I don't think he deserves that sort of accusation. Until proven otherwise, I'm assuming he's just having some difficulty walking back to reality.
It is easy to tell the truth sometimes very hard to construct a believable lie.

A year or two ago I would have said the same thing, what does he fear in coming here and telling us himself, or making a public statement even on Ziggi's worthless blog?

The question that should be asked is why would Basile even need a spokes person if he were truthful and not just running another scam, for the twoof?

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Old 27th August 2016, 08:00 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
It is easy to tell the truth sometimes very hard to construct a believable lie.

A year or two ago I would have said the same thing, what does he fear in coming here and telling us himself, or making a public statement even on Ziggi's worthless blog?
Since he hasn't said much except that he's still working on it, it's possible that he is still desperately searching for something that will allow him to say, "I was right, even though I was right for the wrong reasons." Until proven otherwise, I'm assuming that he just hasn't yet admitted to himself that he was wrong, so it might take him a long time to admit it to anyone else.

Maybe his best face-saving option would be to just return the money while promising to keep working on it, and then hope that people forget about it. But whether or not he does that, he's had much more than enough time to find any thermite in the dust, if there was any, so he has failed in his attempt to confirm the illogical conclusions in the Bentham paper. By default, his study joins the Millette analysis as evidence of absence.
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Old 27th August 2016, 08:57 AM   #506
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Another possibility : Mark Basile has moved on from 9/11 like most formerly active Truthers. His study sits buried somewhere on his desk amounting to half a page of scribbled lines. Too painful to go back to the failure.
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Old 27th August 2016, 06:01 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Another possibility : Mark Basile has moved on from 9/11 like most formerly active Truthers. His study sits buried somewhere on his desk amounting to half a page of scribbled lines. Too painful to go back to the failure.
That could be but perhaps if Mark Basile is intellectually honest he might have been fooled by an actual exothermic chip created by reduced iron not thermite.
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Old 27th August 2016, 07:06 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
That could be but perhaps if Mark Basile is intellectually honest he might have been fooled by an actual exothermic chip created by reduced iron not thermite.
With that statement you only serve notice that you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 27th August 2016, 07:23 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
With that statement you only serve notice that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Given your 14 year track record for scientific discovery I am not overly concerned with your opinions.
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Old 27th August 2016, 08:54 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
With that statement you only serve notice that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Got some evidence,>=?no... defending the zero evidence stand with projection might not be the best effort after a solid 15 years of failure.

Talk to Mark, why is he so darn slow?
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Old 28th August 2016, 06:29 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
If some truther has dust from the world trade center and can prove its chain of custody and that it hasn't been tampered with, I will personally pay for its chemical composition to be tested in a reputable independent lab. We could have it done next week.
...
By the way: There are objective ways to prove a dust sample is from the WTC catastrophe. The RJ Lee reports established several criteria, and I think other studies have, too.
Any competent test protocol would start out with checking the dust for these criteria and thus establishing the proveniece. It shouldn't surprise anyone that James Millette did this (briefly though) in his report to Chris Mohr, while Harrit et al haven't, and Basile does not propose to do so.

However, I am personally contented that these truthers are working with genuine WTC dust.
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Old 28th August 2016, 06:36 AM   #512
Oystein
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Originally Posted by benthamitemetric View Post
The paper came out 6 years ago. 6 years. He's had more than enough time to outline a reasonable series of tests. I imagine a competent chemist would be able to think through such a list in consultation with other interested parties/experts in a weekend.
He had his test proposal, with several test methods, details on how to run them (such as how many specimens to test), even quotes on individual costs, all ready 4 years ago, before fundraising even started.
It appears that he has been, or even still is, fudging with that test protocol - Ziggi claimed as much three days ago - although it is of course totally intransparent. Perhaps he is actually improving on the protocol, perhaps he is fudging it to conceal the failure to find thermite. Perhaps Ziggi simply lies and Mark isn't planning anything differently.

A propos: I am not gracing Ziggi with a reply. It would require a very elaborate parsing of another web of dishonesty he has woven there. I do not know a more aggressively dishonest person (except perhaps Kevin Ryan) in all of trutherdom.
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Old 28th August 2016, 11:54 AM   #513
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I’m speculating, but I believe Basile did the tests, and didn’t get the results he was expecting. The money is gone, and he has nothing to show for it.
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Old 28th August 2016, 04:05 PM   #514
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Quote:
Money has been raise an tests have begun by independent lab technicians.

Labs have been surveyed for the capabilities they have, including some new capabilities in DSC and Raman (like FTIR).

Staring with known primer chips doing SEM/EDX, FTIR and Raman to characterize chip composition and establish the non production of molten metal/iron from this material during DSC exposure to 400 - 600 Centigrade as well as the exotherm/endotherm character of the primer breakdown.

Next steps: move on to red/gray chips doing the same test, in characterizing composition, then showing the exotherms and reaction products.

Update July 2, 2014
According to his 2014 update it seems he already had independent lab technicians examine the chips so what ever happened? Why does he say he doesn't have time if he has already had them examined?
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Old 28th August 2016, 04:20 PM   #515
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His behavior is unethical for any number of reasons.
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Old 28th August 2016, 11:51 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
And yet, no evidence of thermite was ever found in earlier dust sample examinations, which simply means that no further dust sample investigation is warranted.

What are you talking about? Are you a robot designed to bait people into arguing such nonsense by claiming that "there's no evidence at all"? Do you know that evidence is not the same as proof?

The iron microphones are evidence of thermite, an unusual residue from an exotic accelerate. So are the other particles in the dust which require extremely high temperatures to create. I can copypasta too:

NFPA 921 – 19.2.4 – Exotic Accelerants. Mixtures of fuels and Class 3 or Class 4 oxidizers may produce an exceedingly hot fire and may be used to start or accelerate a fire. Thermite mixtures also produce exceedingly hot fires. Such accelerants generally leave residues that may be visually or chemically identifiable.



Exotic accelerants have been hypothesized as having been used to start or accelerate some rapidly growing fires and were referred to in these particular instances as high temperature accelerants (HTA). Indicators of exotic accelerants include an exceedingly rapid rate of fire growth, brilliant flares (particularly at the start of the fire), and melted steel or concrete. A study of 25 fires suspected of being associated with HTAs during the 1981-1991 period revealed that there was no conclusive scientific proof of the use of such HTA.



In any fire where the rate of fire growth is considered exceedingly rapid, other reasons for this should be considered in addition to the use of an accelerant, exotic or otherwise. These reasons include ventilation, fire suppression tactics, and the type and configuration of the fuels.”

and

NFPA 921 – 18.15 Analyze Fuel Source. “All available fuel sources should be considered and eliminated until one fuel can be identified as meeting all of the physical damage criteria. For example, if the epicenter of the explosion is identified as a 6ft (1.8 m) crater of pulverized concrete in the center of the floor, fugitive natural gas can be eliminated as the fuel, and only fuels that can create seated explosions should be considered.

Chemical analysis of debris, soot, soil, or air samples can be helpful in identifying the fuel. With explosives or liquid fuels, gas chromatography, mass spectrography, or other chemical tests of properly collected samples may be able to identify their presence.”
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Old 29th August 2016, 12:13 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The iron microphones are evidence of thermite, an unusual residue from an exotic accelerate. So are the other particles in the dust which require extremely high temperatures to create. I can copypasta too:

Once again, you have proven that you are not up-to-speed on the facts. You can find microsperes in a few places that have nothing to do with thermite and in fact, microspheres can be created in the kitchen using a lighter and steel wool and even produced by burning wood in a barrel of steel beams.

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-ir...hermite.t2523/

Just to let you know you can also find microspheres in fly ash from coal-fired power plants.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nP...rnaces&f=false


So once again, you have no case because there was never evidence of thermite in the dust samples.

.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 29th August 2016 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 29th August 2016, 12:31 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by rogers619 View Post
According to his 2014 update it seems he already had independent lab technicians examine the chips so what ever happened? Why does he say he doesn't have time if he has already had them examined?

Perhaps, he has finally come around to reality that no evidence of thermite was found in the dust samples.
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Old 29th August 2016, 04:29 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Once again, you have proven that you are not up-to-speed on the facts. You can find microsperes in a few places that have nothing to do with thermite and in fact, microspheres can be created in the kitchen using a lighter and steel wool and even produced by burning wood in a barrel of steel beams.

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-ir...hermite.t2523/

Just to let you know you can also find microspheres in fly ash from coal-fired power plants.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nP...rnaces&f=false


So once again, you have no case because there was never evidence of thermite in the dust samples.

.
Fly ash would not have been a valid source, grinding sparks, welding sparks, disc brakes,
Engine clutches, and people would be.
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Old 29th August 2016, 05:47 AM   #520
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This is in Mark Basile's August 2014 update report...

Quote:
The thermal screen test has been changed from my early system which was a stainless steel resistive heater strip that could heat the particles being screened, to a small tube furnace where the chips in a container are heated to 450 degrees C in air or nitrogen. This change was made due to the loss of several chips in the heating process with the early system. The lost chips "flew" off the heater in less than a frame interval while being videoed. Frame capture rate was 15 per second with particle there in one frame and gone the next.
He's using the ignition test as part of the screening process? How in the heck is Mark supposed to send these chips to laboratories if they ignite in the process and cease to be "red/gray chips"?!
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