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22nd December 2016, 01:52 PM | #601 |
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22nd December 2016, 02:49 PM | #602 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I notice with great interest that AE911Truth apparently no longer uses the "active thermitic material" nonsense to argue their pet topic "WTC 7":
http://www.ae911truth.org/images/PDF...Reply-Card.pdf This new AIA proposal has no less than 17 items that they deem suspicious - no mention of thermite or incendiaries. Contrast this with their previous frontpage claims: http://www1.ae911truth.org/en "In the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendiary devices was discovered:Perhaps Ziggi and Basile got the message that the thermite hoax is too hot of an issue, no longer credible, and better never mentioned again. |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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22nd December 2016, 04:07 PM | #603 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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22nd December 2016, 04:29 PM | #604 |
Penultimate Amazing
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IMO, there is no demonstrable connection, either way, between a dust study and a structural fire performance study.
If there is thermite in the dust, that does not prove WTC7 was demolished. If there was no thermite in the dust, that does not prove WTC7 wasn't demolished. And vice versa. Etc. |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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23rd December 2016, 06:33 AM | #605 |
Illuminator
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What are the procedures for reporting a possible scam if the person's identity is out in the open? I doubt that it's an actual scam, but someone or something has to be poked to see if it's still alive.
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23rd December 2016, 06:43 AM | #606 |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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25th December 2016, 10:25 AM | #607 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Thermite is a scam on gullible people, as is the CD fantasy. Report yourself to the FBI for spreading lies which inspire terrorists like the Boston bombers. It is sad people are fooled by 9/11 truth lies of CD and thermite. Go test the dust, oops we found iron and aluminum; OMG, at levels indicative of the soil - Fooled by old men with delusions of an inside job. Was it political, or just BS to make old men lie and fool the gullible non-science CT prone followers of 9/11 truth
Got to get stuff from Santa, an 8 core i7 with a M.2 boot, or Nikon D5... |
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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK |
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27th December 2016, 09:20 AM | #608 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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It's a case of
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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27th December 2016, 12:08 PM | #609 |
Devilish Dictionarian
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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28th December 2016, 03:33 AM | #610 |
Philosopher
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A fool and his money will always be parted.
I made a bunch of money off people dumb enough to play my game, the difference is I let them know it was my game. People will place preconceived notions, and pride over wisdom every day of the week. No problem here with someone sheering the Lamb. |
28th December 2016, 04:49 AM | #611 |
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I doubt it is a scam - whatever that means at law. Could be fraud which as I understand it under US statue can be either a civil or a criminal jurisdiction action.
Alternatively there could be grounds for civil action for breach of contract. In both instances - fraud or breach of contract - the standing to take civil action would lie with those who made monetary contributions in expectation of some service being provided. If they - singly or multiply - do not want to take action I doubt there is basis for action by third parties. And I don't see a public prosecutor taking action in the criminal jurisdiction without a complaint from the "injured" party. Disclaimer: I'm not qualified to practice law in any US jurisdiction. Maybe but why? |
28th December 2016, 05:08 AM | #612 |
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28th December 2016, 06:54 AM | #613 |
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28th December 2016, 07:34 AM | #614 |
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28th December 2016, 07:48 AM | #615 |
Penultimate Amazing
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28th December 2016, 08:56 AM | #616 |
Critical Thinker
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My sympathies go out to Mark Basile.
An unassuming chemist who innocently began studying the September 11th, 2001 debris from the World Trade Center. Money and infamy are a ridiculous fit for his goals then and an even greater misfit now. What he could not and did not anticipate, was the level of attention his research would receive. If he had the benefit of working in anonymity like his critics, I am sure his work would have been completed and reported long ago. |
28th December 2016, 09:17 AM | #617 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Me too. My sympathies for anyone falling for any 9/11/01 conspiracy nonsense, including you Criteria.
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EXACTLY how has his name being known interfered with his ability to carry out the promised project? << goes to get popcorn, this should be good>> |
28th December 2016, 09:52 AM | #618 |
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28th December 2016, 10:12 AM | #619 |
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28th December 2016, 10:36 AM | #620 |
Penultimate Amazing
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28th December 2016, 10:59 AM | #621 |
Devilish Dictionarian
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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28th December 2016, 11:21 AM | #622 |
Penultimate Amazing
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What Myriad keeps saying e.g. to Tony Szamboti and, iirc, Ziggi: That strange implication that we here at the ISF are a major obstacle that stands between the 911TM and their breakthrough into public success. It's really just an excuse for their total lack of success. |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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28th December 2016, 11:43 AM | #623 |
Penultimate Amazing
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So, we are the Gatekeepers?
In a way I can see it. This is the only place left that has any 911 duscussion so it looms large. |
28th December 2016, 11:45 AM | #624 |
Penultimate Amazing
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28th December 2016, 11:47 AM | #625 |
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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28th December 2016, 11:51 AM | #626 |
Penultimate Amazing
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If only someone could come up with a brilliant plan, method, or mechanism, of bypassing ISF and getting the message out to the professional structural and fire engineering community, or in the case of Pilots for 911T, to aviation professionals.
What to do,,,,, what to do,,,? |
28th December 2016, 11:52 AM | #627 |
Penultimate Amazing
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28th December 2016, 03:21 PM | #628 |
Critical Thinker
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As someone that clearly has a taste for 9/11 conspiracy woo, doesn't it bother you at all that Mark has turned the thermite argument into a complete farce?
Say what you want about MicahJava, but at least he has the self respect to call BS on what a joke this has become. How much longer do you want to give him before you will admit that the notion of an "independent follow up study" is dead and Mark is guilty at the very least of defrauding his donors? |
29th December 2016, 09:41 AM | #629 |
Critical Thinker
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I could easily argue that all of the frequent participants in this forum have a taste for “9/11 conspiracy woo”
On one side we have a large majority of ISF members who ‘believe’ that their arguments have been sufficiently validated by agencies of the U.S. Government. On another side you have people like myself who see two major ‘smoking guns’ relating to the World Trade Center on 9/11 still unanswered. There is no published paper that finds Dr. Harrit et al were wrong in their reasoning, or that their findings were are not reproducible. There is no published paper that stands ready to publicly defend or fully explain the collapse of WTC7 as is envisioned by the NIST. Regarding Mark Basile, I believe him to be an honourable person. The only thing he is guilty of is tardiness. |
29th December 2016, 09:47 AM | #630 |
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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29th December 2016, 10:15 AM | #631 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The main difference would be that you like the taste while the rest of do not.
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29th December 2016, 10:52 AM | #632 |
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Fixed that for you. Is there a reason you are trying to dishonestly tie agreement with reality to support for da gubmint?
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That's it. How is that a "smoking gun"?
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NIST concluded 7 WTC succumbed to 7 hours of uncontrolled fires and postulated a probably collapse scenario for the initiating mechanism. The NIST analysis can be dead wrong on the collapse initiating mechanism but it doesn't change the fact 7 WTC was not a target of terrorist attack on 9/11/2001, was of no particular import and thus not a viable target and succumbed to 7 hours of uncontrolled fires. Not sure why the bleeding obvious - already explained many times previously - needs to be explained again. Is there a reason you are trying to dishonestly tie agreement with reality to support for da gubmint?
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Curious that. If say NIST did something like that would you also find them honorable? I'm trust trying to gauge how objective you are about all of this. |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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29th December 2016, 11:12 AM | #633 |
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That's not how science works. There's no published paper reproducing these findings, either. That lack is far more significant. Especially after all this time. Especially after it has been attempted. Especially noting that one unpublished paper by an independent professional lab failed to replicate these findings. Especially given that another attempt which is supposedly in course has failed to deliver results for almost 5 years.
There's no way that can happen. We simply don't have enough data about what happened in the interior of WTC7 as to be able to explain where every bolt of every connection ended up. You're demanding unrealistic details, in the hope to create the sensation that the current explanations are insufficient. That's not true. All three existing reports agree in the base premise: fire directly or indirectly damaged steel up to a point where column 79 failed. They differ in the details. It's quite likely that none of them explains, to the degree of perfection that you demand, what exactly happened. But then no other future investigation can possibly do that, to that degree of detail. The trick you're playing is that you hope that by invalidating the fine details, you'll get the possibility of explosives considered. If that ever happened, which would be a big waste of resources, you would not apply the same standards to it. That's pretty transparent to anyone. |
29th December 2016, 12:24 PM | #634 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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29th December 2016, 12:27 PM | #635 |
Critical Thinker
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Harrit and company screwed up their critical DSC test. That was the impetus for the follow up investigation by Basile, which was supposed to include an inert atmosphere DSC test. Fundraising for that follow up started 3 weeks after the screwed up test became public knowledge.
The Harrit team has also refused multiple requests to look at their samples, and haven't submitted them for follow up at any point over the last 9 years. It's pretty obvious at this point that Mark knows the sample is something innocuous like primer paint chips and is stalling in the hopes that everyone will forget. |
29th December 2016, 03:14 PM | #636 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Hehe
I'd like some evidence for this. "Large Majority" in my book would be at least 51% - agreed? Now 51% of what base? All ISF members, even all those who rarely or never read, let alone post in, this sub-forum? Or just those who have been active within, say the last 5 years (pointing back to the approximate moment in time when the last of Truther claims has been thoroughly debunked every way)? To convince us that this inequality 51% * (# ISF member ) < (ISF members believing their arguments have been sufficiently validated by US Gov agencies)holds true, you would need to evaluate both sides of it and at least provide an upper bound for the term on the left and lower bound for the right side, or else you once again fell prey to the Unevaluated Inequality Fallacy You betray by your choice of words, and by the artificial limitations you impose, that you are clearly aware that your "smoking guns" have in fact been thoroughly answered. Or why else would you limit answers you choose to accept only to "published papers", and the detailed collapse sequence only to what NIST deemed probable? I have for a very long time defended Mark Basile, and have said many times that I believe he is a fundamentally honest person. This mostly based on my personal impression. After all those many years, in which his job was merely to find a suitable lab and mail them an envelope with a few red-gray chips and a cheque, I find more and more that I have no evidence for my assumption that he is honest and honorable. Do you? |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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29th December 2016, 03:19 PM | #637 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It seems that even AE911Truth has quietly dropped the thermite hoax - there is no mention of it in their 2017 AIA resolution proposal, despite it consisting mostly of a long, broad, wild Gish Gallop with no less than 17 of their same old same old talking points, most of them long debunked, irrelevant or not actually supporting their point of view.
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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29th December 2016, 06:13 PM | #638 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Do you have a new smoking gun gish gallop claim? No, you go no evidence and believe what? You can't express your claims. Do you have any? No, yes, maybe; 15 years and all you can do is? You got evidence for any 9/11 truth claims? No = 15 years of failure. Yes, 9/11 truth is woo. Good job, you know its true
Validated? LOL, the USG can't hide anything, we are the government. When we fail to get what we need, we fix it. We have the FDR information etc, etc, etc... Gee, Nixon could not hide Watergate... you got zero evidence, and complain that the evidence supports the "government story". The government is run by US citizens, and the fact is you don't need the FBI or CIA, or NTSB, or other government agencies to figure out 9/11. We have video of two planes hitting the WTC... Guess which planes on 9/11 are missing from the inventory of American Airlines and United? Wow, that is not government... Guess what, American and United have to keep flight manifests of people on the plane; guess which 19 had the only motive on 9/11 to murder thousands of Americans? Gee, guess 9/11 truth can't do simple investigation, can you? No You have no smoking guns, you might be smoking something, but you got no evidence; you never will. Thus this is a lie. Harrit fake the conclusion, it is based on simple reading comprehension. There is no proof for the thermite conclusion, Harrit and Jones are old men, and liars on the inside job thermite fantasy. Holy thermite, read the paper, it is BS. Any english major can see, any lay person can see the conclusion is not proved in the paper. Get some help from your english teacher/professor on this simple one. BS, there are many paper, some are owned by firms, thus you have to pay to get the info. Fire caused the collapse, more than one paper and 99.9 percent of all engineers will agree when they have the facts; thus your less than 0.1 percent of crazy CT engineers who signed the Gage petition of woo are... crazy, and offer no proof for CD, or thermite, or DEW, or other fantasy options you have fallen for. How many years does it take to fake a conclusion? |
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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein "... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK |
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30th December 2016, 09:24 AM | #639 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Seeing that this thread gets bumped at a time when self-appointed gate-keeper Ziggi makes visits to a neighboring thread oviously begs the question:
Ziggi, what have you heard from Mark lately? When will an independent lab get possession of some red-gray chips? And how does Mark propose to select those chips? |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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30th December 2016, 09:49 AM | #640 |
Penultimate Amazing
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AE911T has often minimized or outright omitted it's claims of surreptitious planting of thermite/explosives, in favour of simply claiming a new investigation is needed because, they claim, the NIST reports are flawed and non-explanatory of the collapses.
They seem to recognize that claiming bigbadMIB running around planting explosives in order to carry out what could arguably be the single biggest treasonous act in US History, sounds a bit, just a bit, crazy. It also allows them to not have to merge their claims about three of the dozen or so destroyed Manhattan structures, with the totality of the events of 9/11/01, which includes of course, Flight 77 and the Pentagon, and Flight 93 and the crash in Pennsylvania. ,,,,, and so it doesn't get pushed back because of lil ol' me: |
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