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Old 14th October 2019, 10:01 AM   #1401
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and it's still funny...
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Old 14th October 2019, 05:39 PM   #1402
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I worked through Y2K. I've got a deep-seated fear of years that end in 0.
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Old 14th October 2019, 06:08 PM   #1403
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I worked through Y2K. I've got a deep-seated fear of years that end in 0.
I assume that's when years are expressed in base 31557600?
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Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 14th October 2019 at 08:07 PM. Reason: remove misplaced word
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Old 14th October 2019, 07:00 PM   #1404
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Ahhh, nothing like a major network outage to get the blood flowing.
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Old 14th October 2019, 07:23 PM   #1405
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I worked through Y2K. I've got a deep-seated fear of years that end in 0.
I hate when counting methods start with 0. I seem to remember it being a requirement for certain tables. (0,0) being the first cell, for example.
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Old 14th October 2019, 08:21 PM   #1406
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ahhh, nothing like a major network outage to get the blood flowing.
Sp ak up w can t he r y u
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Old 14th October 2019, 11:26 PM   #1407
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I hate when counting methods start with 0. I seem to remember it being a requirement for certain tables. (0,0) being the first cell, for example.
You always count from 0. [/programmer]
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Old 14th October 2019, 11:33 PM   #1408
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I have such mixed emotions!

On the one hand, YAY Brazil!!! Wish we'd do that.

On the other hand, oh crap - timezone changes in my future.
Next year in the EU the individual member states must decide if they want to keep DST as their time or they want to go back to standard time. This change will be final. No more switching between DST and standard time.

No more DST. Yay! Except... Leaving it up to the individual states means that you might get a situation where when you travel from north to south in the EU you go through several time-zones. Denmark may decide to stay on CEST because we are in the north, Germany perhaps wants to stay on CET, France chooses CEST because France, and Spain goes with CET. You might even get time-zone enclaves. Yay..
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Old 15th October 2019, 12:43 AM   #1409
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I worked through Y2K. I've got a deep-seated fear of years that end in 0.
I worked through Y2K. I like money for old rope.


(Which isn’t to say that the worry about Y2K was misplaced, but the computer industry put in a lot of work to make sure that the problems were dealt with before the date rolled over.)
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Old 21st October 2019, 08:49 AM   #1410
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Next year in the EU the individual member states must decide if they want to keep DST as their time or they want to go back to standard time. This change will be final. No more switching between DST and standard time.

No more DST. Yay! Except... Leaving it up to the individual states means that you might get a situation where when you travel from north to south in the EU you go through several time-zones. Denmark may decide to stay on CEST because we are in the north, Germany perhaps wants to stay on CET, France chooses CEST because France, and Spain goes with CET. You might even get time-zone enclaves. Yay..

Most of the state of Arizona, USA, is in the Mountain time zone (UTC -7). Some of the surrounding states also on Mountain time and some are are on Pacific time (UTC -8).

Wikipedia notes that "[u]nlike most of the United States, Arizona does not observe daylight saving time (DST), with the exception of the Navajo Nation, which does observe DST. The Hopi Reservation, which is not part of the Navajo Nation but is geographically surrounded within it, does not observe DST."

This means that in the summer, if one drives from Holbrook, AZ to Tuba City AZ, one can change time zones six or seven times in 150 miles. It is disconcerting to go to a store or restaurant only to find out that it closed an hour ago, or that it won't open for another hour.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:46 PM   #1411
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
(Which isn’t to say that the worry about Y2K was misplaced, but the computer industry put in a lot of work to make sure that the problems were dealt with before the date rolled over.)
Exactly. I absolutely hate it when someone says "Nothing happened, it was all a big hoax". Yea, clownface, nothing happened because a great many people worked their asses off fixing the code that would have caused problems if left untouched.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:48 PM   #1412
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Most of the state of Arizona, USA, is in the Mountain time zone (UTC -7). Some of the surrounding states also on Mountain time and some are are on Pacific time (UTC -8).

Wikipedia notes that "[u]nlike most of the United States, Arizona does not observe daylight saving time (DST), with the exception of the Navajo Nation, which does observe DST. The Hopi Reservation, which is not part of the Navajo Nation but is geographically surrounded within it, does not observe DST."

This means that in the summer, if one drives from Holbrook, AZ to Tuba City AZ, one can change time zones six or seven times in 150 miles. It is disconcerting to go to a store or restaurant only to find out that it closed an hour ago, or that it won't open for another hour.
That's.... stupid.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 02:38 AM   #1413
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
That's.... stupid.
Yes, it's Arizona.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:09 AM   #1414
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My favorite thing to do on a Tuesday morning.

Conference call with 2 vendors who are pointing fingers at each on an intermittent problem that cannot be reproduced.

<banging head on wall>
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:48 AM   #1415
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
That's.... stupid.
What's stupid about it? Time zones are a useful tool for some things, but not everybody needs them all the time. For people passing through, it's a novelty. For the residents, it's probably no big deal. Obviously it suits the folks who live there well enough. Why make it into a "down with people" thing? Why do you need someone to be stupid, in this anecdote?
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:04 AM   #1416
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It is a fact of modern webservers, often overlooked, that if you request
Code:
http://server/folder
the webserver will tell you to try
Code:
http://server/folder/
instead.*

This is a very minor, but very important distinction, to the webserver. It's often overlooked, because modern web browsers handle it gracefully, just going to the new address and updating the address bar without bothering you about the change.

There's basically three "good" responses a webserver can make to a vanilla request from a browser:

- "It's over there, now". This is a normal redirect message, telling you that the resource is actually at a different address entirely.

- "It's over here, now". This is similar, but says that the resource is right here, but the address is slightly different. This is the trailing "/" issue I'm talking about.

- "I've got it for you right here". This is the default "OK" message, when your address matches the address of the resource, and it's there for you.

Your web browser will turn all three of these messages into the same experience for you, the user: The requested resource just loads, from the correct address.

However. Your java package build tool, gradle, will not handle these messages gracefully. If gradle asks for:
Code:
http://server/folder
And the server replies:
Code:
302 FOUND http://server/folder/
Then gradle will give up, and your job run will fail. This is super obnoxious, because nobody knows that the "/" actually matters, and so even technically proficient software developers don't think to check it.

The people who developed the gradle tool are jackasses, for not thinking to gracefully handle such standard server responses as "HTTP 302 FOUND".

---
*This isn't true about all webservers. It actually depends on how the site is designed, and on how the webserver is configured to handle these kinds of minor address mismatches. But it's true for a lot more webservers than you probably think.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:55 PM   #1417
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Exactly. I absolutely hate it when someone says "Nothing happened, it was all a big hoax". Yea, clownface, nothing happened because a great many people worked their asses off fixing the code that would have caused problems if left untouched.
Definitely me too. It's one of those things that when someone says it I have to push my glasses up my nose, nerd snort and say "well actually..."
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Old 22nd October 2019, 11:28 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then gradle will give up, and your job run will fail. This is super obnoxious, because nobody knows that the "/" actually matters, and so even technically proficient software developers don't think to check it.
Amazon s3 storage does something similar. It's annoying because they sort of adopted unix syntax (ls,cp, etc) but have this.
Also vendor products that have their own scripting language that is almost but not quite the same syntax as perl or existing languages. Just write perl packages or something you <expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted>!
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Old 23rd October 2019, 12:11 AM   #1419
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's stupid about it? Time zones are a useful tool for some things, but not everybody needs them all the time. For people passing through, it's a novelty. For the residents, it's probably no big deal. Obviously it suits the folks who live there well enough. Why make it into a "down with people" thing? Why do you need someone to be stupid, in this anecdote?
I don't "need" someone to be stupid. But having multiple timezones on a 150 miles long north-south journey where the time of day doesn't actually change is pretty stupid. It's also pretty stupid to have DST observed or not on an almost county level.
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Last edited by erlando; 23rd October 2019 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 12:48 AM   #1420
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Equifax: unencrypted data on a server with id and password as admin:admin.

https://www.silicon.co.uk/security/c...alleges-298285

You have now exceeded your RDA of incompetence.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:02 AM   #1421
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't "need" someone to be stupid. But having multiple timezones on a 150 miles long north-south journey where the time of day doesn't actually change is pretty stupid. It's also pretty stupid to have DST observed or not on an almost county level.

The issue here is sovereignty. The relations between the tribes and the US, and thus the states, are governed by treaties between each tribe and the Federal government. (There is an exception: In Virginia, two treaties predate the establishment of the United States. These treaties are still in force.)

Hopi and Navajo reservations are in some sense sovereign nations, and in some sense part of the United States -- but not of the individual state(s) in which they are located. For instance, they have their own vehicle licensing system, their own tax collection which is independent of the state's collection*, etc.

*That is, tribe members do not pay income tax to the state, and a state sales tax is not collected nor remitted to the state in which the reservation is located. Thus, for instance, many people who live near a reservation, always buy gasoline on the reservation.
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Last edited by xterra; 23rd October 2019 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:48 AM   #1422
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Amazon s3 storage does something similar. It's annoying because they sort of adopted unix syntax (ls,cp, etc) but have this.
Also vendor products that have their own scripting language that is almost but not quite the same syntax as perl or existing languages. Just write perl packages or something you <expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted><expletive deleted>!
Domain-specific languages are a hoot.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 01:30 PM   #1423
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Exactly. I absolutely hate it when someone says "Nothing happened, it was all a big hoax". Yea, clownface, nothing happened because a great many people worked their asses off fixing the code that would have caused problems if left untouched.
On a related note, especially in support, people who fight fires get more recognition than people who prevent fires from happening in the first place.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 02:22 PM   #1424
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
On a related note, especially in support, people who fight fires get more recognition than people who prevent fires from happening in the first place.
Very much so. A good office admin or a good computer systems person is essentially unnoticed until something goes wrong and stuff hits the fan. For the office admin, people get paid correctly, suppliers get paid, receipts are deposited, and the books are kept up to date every month ... no one notices unless there's a mistake. For computer people, the file shares, websites and databases stay up, the networks are reliable, email is received and delivered, backups get done (and restores as well!), and the firewalls and anti-virus systems keep the malware out.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 03:19 PM   #1425
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"Everything is going bad, breaking down, failing! Why are we paying you?"


"Everything is working fine, no problems, no issues. Why are we paying you?"
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Old 23rd October 2019, 03:30 PM   #1426
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
"Everything is going bad, breaking down, failing! Why are we paying you?"


"Everything is working fine, no problems, no issues. Why are we paying you?"
Very old story I heard during my contracting days:

Big machine at a factory broke down and failed to proceed. Nobody on site could figure out how to fix it. Orders backed up, no income, hair-tearing-out time in the boardroom. "GET SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX IT!", they cried in anguish. Someone remembers...Old Bob who was their senior engineer knew how to fix it. But they had sacked him and he was a contractor now. "DON'T CARE!" said the chairman. "GET HIM IN NO MATTER THE COST!"

In comes Old Bob, who looks carefully at the machine, and marks an X on it carefully in chalk. "Hit it gently here", he said. They did, and lo and behold the machine whirrs back into action.

Old Bob then presents his bill, and it is huge - $100,000. "You want THAT MUCH for just drawing an X in chalk?" whined the chairman. "Yes", says Old Bob. "But how can you justify $100,000?! That's ridiculous!" "Easy", said Old Bob. "It's $5 for marking the machine with chalk. But it's $999,995 for knowing where to put the X."
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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:03 PM   #1427
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Jeez, I'm getting all the weird and crazy calls today that I can't resolve at first level. The software that didn't associate its file type properly on install and can't be manually associated. The free time for other people not showing in the Scheduling Assistant in Outlook, even though the user could view free time for rooms and shared mailboxes. The web page that won't load and won't give an error - just hangs, even though other tabs are working normally and that I can't test to see if it's the site because it requires a logon. I haven't had a single easy, straightforward call all morning.

Yes, I did all the basic Tier 1 things for all of these. Nothing worked. I haven't had a single easy, straightforward call all morning.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:28 PM   #1428
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Just got a simple call. Finally.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 07:20 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Very old story I heard during my contracting days:

Big machine at a factory broke down and failed to proceed. Nobody on site could figure out how to fix it. Orders backed up, no income, hair-tearing-out time in the boardroom. "GET SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX IT!", they cried in anguish. Someone remembers...Old Bob who was their senior engineer knew how to fix it. But they had sacked him and he was a contractor now. "DON'T CARE!" said the chairman. "GET HIM IN NO MATTER THE COST!"

In comes Old Bob, who looks carefully at the machine, and marks an X on it carefully in chalk. "Hit it gently here", he said. They did, and lo and behold the machine whirrs back into action.

Old Bob then presents his bill, and it is huge - $100,000. "You want THAT MUCH for just drawing an X in chalk?" whined the chairman. "Yes", says Old Bob. "But how can you justify $100,000?! That's ridiculous!" "Easy", said Old Bob. "It's $5 for marking the machine with chalk. But it's $999,995 for knowing where to put the X."

The first time I heard that story the protagonist wasn't Old Bob. It was Nicola Tesla.

And he did his own tapping.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 07:28 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The first time I heard that story the protagonist wasn't Old Bob. It was Nicola Tesla.

And he did his own tapping.
The artist John Whistler in the 1877 libel case.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 07:33 PM   #1431
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Have you guys ever read The Story Of Mel? It's from 1983, and it's quite long, so there's the link, but it starts like this:

Quote:
A recent article devoted to the macho side of programming
made the bald and unvarnished statement:

Real Programmers write in FORTRAN.

Maybe they do now,
in this decadent era of
Lite beer, hand calculators, and “user-friendly” software
but back in the Good Old Days,
when the term “software” sounded funny
and Real Computers were made out of drums and vacuum tubes,
Real Programmers wrote in machine code.
Not FORTRAN. Not RATFOR. Not, even, assembly language.
Machine Code.
Raw, unadorned, inscrutable hexadecimal numbers.
Directly.

Lest a whole new generation of programmers
grow up in ignorance of this glorious past,
I feel duty-bound to describe,
as best I can through the generation gap,
how a Real Programmer wrote code.
I'll call him Mel,
because that was his name.
I heartily recommend reading the whole thing, whether you're a programmer or, like me, not. It's beautiful.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 08:53 PM   #1432
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The first time I heard that story the protagonist wasn't Old Bob. It was Nicola Tesla.

And he did his own tapping.
I have heard a different version for just about every site I contracted at. And that was hundreds of sites in my time.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 08:59 PM   #1433
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I have heard a different version for just about every site I contracted at. And that was hundreds of sites in my time.

It does sound like the sort of thing Tesla would have done.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:22 PM   #1434
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
The issue here is sovereignty. The relations between the tribes and the US, and thus the states, are governed by treaties between each tribe and the Federal government. (There is an exception: In Virginia, two treaties predate the establishment of the United States. These treaties are still in force.)

Hopi and Navajo reservations are in some sense sovereign nations, and in some sense part of the United States -- but not of the individual state(s) in which they are located. For instance, they have their own vehicle licensing system, their own tax collection which is independent of the state's collection*, etc.

*That is, tribe members do not pay income tax to the state, and a state sales tax is not collected nor remitted to the state in which the reservation is located. Thus, for instance, many people who live near a reservation, always buy gasoline on the reservation.
That changes matters of course. I wasn't aware of this.

I learned something new today. Thank you.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:25 PM   #1435
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just got a simple call. Finally.
"Have you tried turning it off and on again?" [/TheITCrowd]
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:26 PM   #1436
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
"Have you tried turning it off and on again?" [/TheITCrowd]
I swear, I ask people this question several times every day.

There's a reason why that stereotype exists.

I couldn't watch The IT Crowd. It was far too true.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:08 AM   #1437
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I swear, I ask people this question several times every day.

There's a reason why that stereotype exists.

I couldn't watch The IT Crowd. It was far too true.
Dogbert's Tech Support:

"Hello I-"
"Shut up and reboot."
"Hey it worked-""
"Shut up and hang up."
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:19 AM   #1438
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The software that didn't associate its file type properly on install and can't be manually associated.

I've occasionally had something similar on my home PC. A program would suddenly lose its association with a file type it previously opened, and if I tried to manually change "Open with", the changes wouldn't save. The problem would go away after a Windows update, so I assumed it was something that they messed up.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:22 AM   #1439
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Also Microsoft my users have to use Chrome.

It's literally undignified and desperate how much you push Edge when all I'm doing is just choosing a default browser.

I'm waiting for the day I try to switch a user to Chrome and message pops of my house "Nice house you got there... be a shame if something happened to it. Just saying maybe you choose Edge..."
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Old 24th October 2019, 09:23 AM   #1440
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I've occasionally had something similar on my home PC. A program would suddenly lose its association with a file type it previously opened, and if I tried to manually change "Open with", the changes wouldn't save. The problem would go away after a Windows update, so I assumed it was something that they messed up.
I've certainly had problems when a Windows update has been installed (automatically, without telling me) but still needs a reboot to finish. Some applications, e.g. Lightroom, start misbehaving and the reboot (and completion of the update) fixes it.
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