ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 21st October 2019, 02:49 PM   #201
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The problem is the assumption Zig makes is that absence of evidence is evidence there is a huge problem that needs fixing.
Yeah, no. That's a straw man.

The vulnerability of the system is apparent by examining how the system works. That's the evidence for the existence of the vulnerability, whether or not that vulnerability is being exploited.

The issue about absence of evidence is that it doesn't prove that the system isn't being exploited, not that it demonstrates that it is. But even if it isn't being exploited now, the vulnerability should still be closed to prevent future exploitation.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 02:53 PM   #202
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The electoral commission is not the government. The cost is estimated at £0.5bn a year.
I don't know where you're getting that number from, but it's wildly wrong. The estimated costs are on page 29 (PDF page 30) of this report:

https://www.electoralcommission.org....March-2016.pdf

Annual costs range from about $2 million to $11 million, depending on the details, but nothing even close to $500 million per year.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 03:02 PM   #203
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I try to be a moving target
Posts: 15,073
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't know where you're getting that number from, but it's wildly wrong. The estimated costs are on page 29 (PDF page 30) of this report:

https://www.electoralcommission.org....March-2016.pdf

Annual costs range from about $2 million to $11 million, depending on the details, but nothing even close to $500 million per year.
Costs last time

Of course less secure systems will be cheaper.
But there still is no evidence of an ID problem any more than there is evidence of mass hypnosis.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 03:08 PM   #204
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
It would seem to me that for the typical UK election you would need such a huge amount of voter fraud to make any difference that it wouldn't be worth doing or so obvious it was happening as to immediately trigger alarm bells.

I mean in a huge amount of cases people's legitimate votes are worthless with FPTP so why anyone would go out of their way to take a risk to obtain more than one is beyond me.

On the other hand, large scale disenfranchisement by introducing voter ID could very well have an impact
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 03:12 PM   #205
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,005
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
I can be satisfied that their procedures are robust and effective without agreeing with their every recommendation.
Are the procedures ever subjected to independent audit?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 03:42 PM   #206
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,972
Yes, as is laid out in the pdf to which I linked.
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 06:21 PM   #207
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Costs last time

Of course less secure systems will be cheaper.
But there still is no evidence of an ID problem any more than there is evidence of mass hypnosis.
That's not remotely equivalent to what the electoral commission is advocating.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2019, 06:22 PM   #208
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It would seem to me that for the typical UK election you would need such a huge amount of voter fraud to make any difference that it wouldn't be worth doing or so obvious it was happening as to immediately trigger alarm bells.

I mean in a huge amount of cases people's legitimate votes are worthless with FPTP so why anyone would go out of their way to take a risk to obtain more than one is beyond me.

On the other hand, large scale disenfranchisement by introducing voter ID could very well have an impact
Were large numbers of people disenfranchised in Northern Ireland?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 12:31 AM   #209
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,583
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It would seem to me that for the typical UK election you would need such a huge amount of voter fraud to make any difference that it wouldn't be worth doing or so obvious it was happening as to immediately trigger alarm bells.

I mean in a huge amount of cases people's legitimate votes are worthless with FPTP so why anyone would go out of their way to take a risk to obtain more than one is beyond me.
Yes ... and no. The advantage of direct representation FPTP system is you need to have a wide net of fraud to have any impact on the election at all. You need to move a whole let of close elections from one side to the other. Each fraud may be only a few hundred strong, but there need to be many of them to be effective.

This is hard to do, especially since the authorities can tell which elections these would be and focus accordingly.

On the other hand we're still talking about a few hundred polling places nation-wide with perhaps a two dozen extra votes each. No statistical analysis will catch that. If you aren't caught in the act you are scott free.

Overall meaningful voter fraud is harder in FPTP. Which is why ...

Quote:
On the other hand, large scale disenfranchisement by introducing voter ID could very well have an impact
... disfrenchisement is used instead. It's much more effective, especially if you can combine it with gerrymandering. At least UK is resistant to that, for now.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 01:26 AM   #210
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Were large numbers of people disenfranchised in Northern Ireland?
I can't find any study on it but it seems a fairly safe bet to say yes they were. It should also be remembered that Northern Ireland actually had a problem.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 02:05 AM   #211
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,028
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The electoral commission is not the government. The cost is estimated at £0.5bn a year. That has the paid for by universal tax rises, cuts to services or charges to card holders. The Government had repeatedly said it will go for the later. You are also ignoring major reason behind this. The government wants to stop certain people voting. A charge will do that. A free card won't.
That's quite a major accusation to be throwing out.
Do you have any evidence for this, especially given that the NI card is free?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 02:06 AM   #212
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,749
In the end this is electioneering, not a policy aimed at solving a problem. It's a low appeal to voters swayed by the suspicion that unentitled immigrants are stealing our elections. People who remember stories of traditional Pakistani families where the head of the household votes for everyone (with postal votes which this won't stop) and who now assume gangs of Eastern Europeans are, well, who knows what they imagine but it's bound to be sinister and foreign and Something Must be Done. So vote for Boris if you don't trust foreigners; he doesn't trust foreigners either.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 03:44 AM   #213
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,487
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That's quite a major accusation to be throwing out.
Do you have any evidence for this, especially given that the NI card is free?
'No charge' and 'free' aren't exactly the same thing in this context. The process is described here , is quite involved, and includes this part:

2. Enclose a colour, passport-sized photo with your name and date of birth written on the back.

3. Enclose either one of the forms of photographic identification listed below or a declaration (see below) completed by an MP, MEP, MLA or Councillor:

A UK, Irish, EEA or Commonwealth driving licence (photographic part) (provisional accepted)
A UK, Irish, EU or Commonwealth passport
A National Identity Card
An expired Electoral Identity Card
A Translink Senior SmartPass
A Translink 60+ SmartPass
A Translink War Disabled SmartPass
A Translink Blind Personís SmartPass
A Disabled Persons Blue Badge issued by the Roads Service
An Application Registration Card issued by the Home Office
A Student Card


It makes you wonder why those forms of photo ID aren't allowable as proof of ID at the polling station, and also how many of the people with no passport or driving licence fit into one of the other categories.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:18 AM   #214
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
'No charge' and 'free' aren't exactly the same thing in this context. The process is described here , is quite involved, and includes this part:
That's only for applications by post. In person applications are easier.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:18 AM   #215
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That's quite a major accusation to be throwing out.
Do you have any evidence for this, especially given that the NI card is free?
Nothing is free. And it is not just the cost that inhibits people from voting (although this is an issue)
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:20 AM   #216
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I can't find any study on it but it seems a fairly safe bet to say yes they were.
I don't think that's a safe bet at all.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:20 AM   #217
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's only for applications by post. In person applications are easier.
Which is available at one location in the whole country and only open during office hours so good luck with that.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:32 AM   #218
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think that's a safe bet at all.
Well absent any data we don't know, do we?

The only data I can see is the GB trials which suggest something like 0.5%-1% of voters being turned away. Not to mention those who didn't go in the first place because they don't have the requisite ID.

It seems highly unlikely to me that the coverage of ID in Northern Ireland is 100% and therefore some percentage of people are being disenfranchised.

In the face of that I think that the idea that it is having no effect would be a surprising finding.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:45 AM   #219
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well absent any data we don't know, do we?

The only data I can see is the GB trials which suggest something like 0.5%-1% of voters being turned away. Not to mention those who didn't go in the first place because they don't have the requisite ID.

It seems highly unlikely to me that the coverage of ID in Northern Ireland is 100% and therefore some percentage of people are being disenfranchised.

In the face of that I think that the idea that it is having no effect would be a surprising finding.
The trials were performed without providing free ID. You don't think that might make a difference?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:02 AM   #220
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,034
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The trials were performed without providing free ID. You don't think that might make a difference?
I think you mean free for the citizen, but such a scheme as we have seen before when similar schemes were floated are expensive, anything but "free".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:03 AM   #221
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you mean free for the citizen, but such a scheme as we have seen before when similar schemes were floated are expensive, anything but "free".
How expensive is the Northern Ireland scheme?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:03 AM   #222
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,920
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If polling stations aren't open exactly when and where I want them to be, then I'm disenfranchised.

Well, no, it doesn't work that way.
Indeed. And nobody has suggested that.

But it is true that if polling stations aren't open when and where people need them to be, then they are indeed disenfranchised.

Quote:
Furthermore, people are disenfranchised when voter fraud occurs.
Then we're well off given that on the whole, voter fraud doesn't occur.

Quote:
Reducing voter fraud can improve total enfranchisement even if a few people are disenfranchised. It's good to try to minimize any disenfranchisement, but it doesn't actually make sense to insist the error rate in providing ID's be exactly zero.
But it does illustrate the point that there WILL be an error rate in issuing IDs, and that it will almost certainly be considerably higher than the error rate in the practically non-existent voter fraud.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:05 AM   #223
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,487
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's only for applications by post. In person applications are easier.
(answered by AGG)
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:22 AM   #224
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,487
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If polling stations aren't open exactly when and where I want them to be, then I'm disenfranchised.
It crosses my mind that you might not be aware of how UK polling takes place. Stations are open 7am to 10pm and are local, often in schools, church halls and the like. On average each one serves around 800 people, though possibly fewer in a rural area or more in an urban area. It's pretty easy to vote. And if you know you won't be able to get there postal and proxy votes are available.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:30 AM   #225
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The trials were performed without providing free ID. You don't think that might make a difference?
Again, the data for this should exist. What % of the NI population has the requisite ID? I can't find it but it won't be 100%.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:51 AM   #226
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Again, the data for this should exist. What % of the NI population has the requisite ID? I can't find it but it won't be 100%.
The percentage of people who want to vote isn't going to be 100% either. The percentage of people who actually bother getting around to it, even in the absence of any voter ID requirement, is lower still.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 08:09 AM   #227
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 27,334
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It crosses my mind that you might not be aware of how UK polling takes place. Stations are open 7am to 10pm and are local, often in schools, church halls and the like. On average each one serves around 800 people, though possibly fewer in a rural area or more in an urban area. It's pretty easy to vote. And if you know you won't be able to get there postal and proxy votes are available.
I find it puzzling that there are often long lines at US polling stations, I've never had any kind of wait whether I was voting in London, Bristol, a small Northern English market town or rural Wales.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 08:20 AM   #228
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The percentage of people who want to vote isn't going to be 100% either. The percentage of people who actually bother getting around to it, even in the absence of any voter ID requirement, is lower still.
Which is irrelevant to whether or not you are ABLE to vote.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 08:30 AM   #229
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Which is irrelevant to whether or not you are ABLE to vote.
It's very relevant to any interpretation of the data, which is what you were discussing.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 10:04 AM   #230
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's very relevant to any interpretation of the data, which is what you were discussing.
It really isn't. If you require something you don't have in order to vote then you are disenfranchised.

If you choose not to vote you aren't disenfranchised but if the choice is taken away from you then you are.

You are simply trying to muddy the waters by suggesting that the disenfranchisement doesn't matter. But the fact remain that voter ID has the potential and indeed the likelihood to introduce a much greater problem than it addresses.

Even the 'oh I forgot my ID' impact will be larger than the supposed fraud.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 10:19 AM   #231
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,647
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It really isn't. If you require something you don't have in order to vote then you are disenfranchised.
If you don't get it because you don't want to vote or couldn't be bothered to, you aren't disenfranchised. And if you don't want to vote (and lots of people don't), why would you get it? So no, the raw number of people who don't have an ID doesn't tell you how many of them are disenfranchised.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 10:20 AM   #232
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 43,753
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I can't find any study on it but it seems a fairly safe bet to say yes they were. It should also be remembered that Northern Ireland actually had a problem.
It should also be remembered that ethnic minority communities were identified as one of the main groups where existing photo IDs were much less common, and that Northern Ireland is about 98% White, as opposed to England, which is 85% White (and not evenly so), so it may not be a useful indicator of how voter ID would work in practice.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
In the end this is electioneering, not a policy aimed at solving a problem. It's a low appeal to voters swayed by the suspicion that unentitled immigrants are stealing our elections. People who remember stories of traditional Pakistani families where the head of the household votes for everyone (with postal votes which this won't stop) and who now assume gangs of Eastern Europeans are, well, who knows what they imagine but it's bound to be sinister and foreign and Something Must be Done. So vote for Boris if you don't trust foreigners; he doesn't trust foreigners either.
Yes, that's exactly what I tried to express, somewhat less clearly, in an early post on this thread.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 11:57 PM   #233
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,583
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I find it puzzling that there are often long lines at US polling stations, I've never had any kind of wait whether I was voting in London, Bristol, a small Northern English market town or rural Wales.
Two things to note:

1. USA does elections on the cheap. The average price per eligeble voter is at most half that of EU (~4-6Ä/voter) and usually less.
2. The long lines are often a feature, not a bug. You put fewer voting booths in areas that vote mainly for the party you don't want to win. Viola, you just boosted your chances a little.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 01:05 AM   #234
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,028
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
'No charge' and 'free' aren't exactly the same thing in this context. The process is described here , is quite involved, and includes this part:

2. Enclose a colour, passport-sized photo with your name and date of birth written on the back.

3. Enclose either one of the forms of photographic identification listed below or a declaration (see below) completed by an MP, MEP, MLA or Councillor:

A UK, Irish, EEA or Commonwealth driving licence (photographic part) (provisional accepted)
A UK, Irish, EU or Commonwealth passport
A National Identity Card
An expired Electoral Identity Card
A Translink Senior SmartPass
A Translink 60+ SmartPass
A Translink War Disabled SmartPass
A Translink Blind Personís SmartPass
A Disabled Persons Blue Badge issued by the Roads Service
An Application Registration Card issued by the Home Office
A Student Card


It makes you wonder why those forms of photo ID aren't allowable as proof of ID at the polling station, and also how many of the people with no passport or driving licence fit into one of the other categories.
Yes, I've already linked to this.
I still can't see any charge, beyond the cost of postage. Can you elaborate on your point?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 01:15 AM   #235
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,028
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If you don't have acceptable ID on your person when you go to the polling station, then you're not able to vote.

There are subsets of society who are less likely to have acceptable ID and/or who are more likely to have difficulty finding it on the day. I already have acceptable ID and have the time money and resources to be able to get replacement ID in reasonably short order if I should lose the ID I have. A lot of people are not in that position.
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Northern Ireland relies on you already having acceptable photo ID, or if you haven't:



The kind of person who doesn't already have photo ID isn't likely to be the kind of person who is willing or able to reach out to their MP, MEP, MLA or Councillor individually.
You are describing a set of people who cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, or travel anywhere. Not only this, but they must also not know anyone who can help them with this.
These people, should they exist in any significant numbers, would be unable to register to vote anyway. The introduction of an ID card, I would argue, would make no difference to this.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that 3.5 million people in the UK cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, travel anywhere or contact anyone (family, friends, charities, the welfare state) who can help them with this.
Who are these people, and how do they manage to survive?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis

Last edited by Cosmic Yak; 23rd October 2019 at 01:18 AM.
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 01:50 AM   #236
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 27,334
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You are describing a set of people who cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, or travel anywhere. Not only this, but they must also not know anyone who can help them with this.
These people, should they exist in any significant numbers, would be unable to register to vote anyway. The introduction of an ID card, I would argue, would make no difference to this.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that 3.5 million people in the UK cannot send emails or letters, make phone calls, travel anywhere or contact anyone (family, friends, charities, the welfare state) who can help them with this.
Who are these people, and how do they manage to survive?
Sounds rather like an argument from incredulity to me.

People may be perfectly capable of sending emails or letters and can make phone calls but unless they know to go and ask their MP (or otherwise) to vouch for them, they wouldn't be able to get N.I. voter ID.

The numbers are quite clear. Currently there are millions of people on the electoral roll without ID suitable for voter ID. Not all of these people have the time, resources or supporting documentation to be able to obtain it.

Then there are people on the electoral roll who have lost their ID or had it stolen. Until they can replace it, they will be unable to vote. I can easily afford the time and money to get a lost piece of ID replaced and can lay my hands on the necessary supporting documentation. Not everyone is in that happy position.

There will be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of possibly even more than a million people who are on the electoral roll who are either temporarily or permanently without adequate ID to vote. They would be unable to vote because of rules proposed to fix a problem which does not exist.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 02:18 AM   #237
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,487
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Yes, I've already linked to this.
I still can't see any charge, beyond the cost of postage. Can you elaborate on your point?
There is a cost in terms of time and effort (and perhaps some expense), and if it involves seeing an official or visiting a distant registration office that cost could be considerable.

Meanwhile, systematic personation is extremely unlikely to affect the outcome of a UK election, given the way they're run in a FPTP system.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 08:42 AM   #238
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,028
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sounds rather like an argument from incredulity to me.

People may be perfectly capable of sending emails or letters and can make phone calls but unless they know to go and ask their MP (or otherwise) to vouch for them, they wouldn't be able to get N.I. voter ID.
That's not true. Did you read the link?
Originally Posted by The Don View Post

The numbers are quite clear. Currently there are millions of people on the electoral roll without ID suitable for voter ID. Not all of these people have the time, resources or supporting documentation to be able to obtain it.
You have yet to provide evidence for this assertion. How do you know they don't have time, resources or supporting documentation?
Once again, if you haven't got the documents, you can contact your MP, as it says in the link.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2019, 08:54 AM   #239
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 27,334
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That's not true. Did you read the link?
Yes I did, in fact I think I posted it well before you. To get a voter ID card you need to:

Quote:
3. Enclose either one of the forms of photographic identification listed below or a declaration (see below) completed by an MP, MEP, MLA or Councillor:
If you don't have one of the IDs then you need to ask your MP, MEP, MLA or Councillor to complete a declaration. Now I happen to have had plenty of dealings with my local MP and even though he represents a party I wouldn't vote for in a million years, I'd feel comfortable asking him for such a declaration (though whether he'd be willing to provide one is another question, he may not know me from Adam). That's because I'm a middle class person from a politically active family and have rubbed elbows with MPs as long as I can remember.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You have yet to provide evidence for this assertion. How do you know they don't have time, resources or supporting documentation?
Because study after study shows that tighter voter ID requirements tend to exclude the same classes pf people - which is why conservatives are so keen on it.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Once again, if you haven't got the documents, you can contact your MP, as it says in the link.
Many people wouldn't know how to reach out to their MP. Of course to declare that you are entitled to get an ID, the MP would need to verify that you are who you claim and you're entitled to the ID
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2019, 08:41 AM   #240
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,757
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you don't get it because you don't want to vote or couldn't be bothered to, you aren't disenfranchised. And if you don't want to vote (and lots of people don't), why would you get it? So no, the raw number of people who don't have an ID doesn't tell you how many of them are disenfranchised.
You may not want to vote currently, but you may decide you do want to vote. And then you can't. Because you have been disenfranchised.

Disenfranchisement is about whether you have the right and the ability to do something, not whether you use that right.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:01 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.