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Old 12th July 2018, 03:34 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
"We love that cave. It saved our lives. If that cave had not presented us with a dirty rocky shelf to sit on then we would have all drowned. The SEALs wouldn't have been able to rescue us if it weren't for that cave. We love that cave."
That's the weird thing about the religious mindset. When people survive -- even with terrible injuries -- car accidents, plane crashes, fires, floods, etc., the believer says "God spared my life," "God answered my prayers," "God blessed us, " etc., etc. Nobody steps back and says "But why did God let this happen? And what about all the people who died horribly? Did they deserve it, or they didn't pray loud enough, or what?" The answer is always something like "God has a plan..."
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:18 PM   #442
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I want to be clear: The Australian anaesthetist who was instrumental to their rescue was there becuase he was an expert cave diver, not because he was an anaesthetist.
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:33 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I want to be clear: The Australian anaesthetist who was instrumental to their rescue was there becuase he was an expert cave diver, not because he was an anaesthetist.

Sounds legit.
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:44 PM   #444
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Here is a first hand account from a NZ diver

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12088043
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:52 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Sounds legit.
I don't understand what you mean by this. Can you elaborate please?
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:58 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There no chance that they only carried the boys on stretchers for the walking parts to conserve their strength and energy for the swimming parts?
I thought it was only for the last stretch.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:01 PM   #447
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Here's a good summary of the whole thing. Note that there is still a fair bit that we don't know.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:17 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Can't find it now, but I just today read an established US Christian oriented studio is moving forward with a rather large budget ($30-$60MM) stab at this. Not to have a "christian" rewrite (thankfully) but an "inspirational" take on it. There's some Thai connection to the American owner/producer... IIRC, he lives there.

If I could recall their previous "known" christian angle film that was mentioned, I'd be able to search out their name... sadly I don't. Have at it Google sleuths.
Is it the studio as mentioned in this post?

Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
Perhaps these people have it.

Kind-hearted movie producers are already in Thailand, sniffing around for movie rights

From the people who brought you "Gods not Dead", in case any of you thought you might be setting the bar to low.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:20 PM   #449
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I've been reading that during the rescues none of the boys did any swimming or walking. Their full head masks never came off for the whole rescue.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:20 PM   #450
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So in future, if teenage boys in the area need a right of passage, could they maybe just get laid instead?
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:28 PM   #451
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I wonder if they will install a locking gate/grid/wall at the entrance to prevent any entry for the rainy months.

That same scenario could happen again and this cave will be very popular now with many more visitors.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:59 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Is it the studio as mentioned in this post?
That's the one, thanks. I missed rdaneel's post.

I think I skimmed the item today in androidGoogle's Newsstand app, then couldn't find it again (Chrome crashes my phone so I rarely follow links in thread posts).
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:35 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I want to be clear: The Australian anaesthetist who was instrumental to their rescue was there becuase he was an expert cave diver, not because he was an anaesthetist.
But when opportunity presents itself, you can take advantage of that. There are too many reports, sourced, that they were anaesthetized.

Harris is one of the best cave-divers in the world. He was specifically requested/invited by the international team. He just happened to have a skill set that came in rather handy. There were other doctors along the evacuation route. And nurses. But I'd imagine that in early chit-chat when people were suggesting they drug them, they promptly consulted with him. Probably not unlike the Thai nurse... not a renowned cave diver but experienced at it, but she just happened to have experience with divers' ailments. She was also one of the two medicos who commited from the moment they located the team to staying until everyone was out. I believe Harris was the other, and he was reported to be the last out.

Again, full information will probably come from foreign interviews. The PM said they were given something for anxiety, which they can probably stretch to include any number of drugs (hey, heroin is very calming, too) but he clearly said that "other than that they were not drugged". Being in the press in Thailand is much like hosting a meeting with Donald Trump - you don't remind the PM or the public of lies and errors. He's a general. He's infallible.

Is Harris back in Australia? I read that as he emerged he learned his father had died. Maybe we leave him alone for a while?
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:13 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Is Harris back in Australia? I read that as he emerged he learned his father had died. Maybe we leave him alone for a while?
As far as I can tell, that's exactly what the local media is doing. I haven't seen anything specifically about him on the ABC or Guardian websites since the rescue. Which I believe is a Good Thing.

He's a good bloke, and a hero. But he deserves privacy.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:41 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
But when opportunity presents itself, you can take advantage of that. There are too many reports, sourced, that they were anaesthetized.
....
"Anesthetized" and "sedated" are not the same things. A Thai official previously announced that the boys were given an anxiolytic, an anti-anxiety medication. Common drugs in that category would include Valium and Xanax.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...oHI/story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiolytic

A sedative would still leave them breathing on their own and probably conscious enough to communicate some. A general anesthetic would knock them out completely, as if for surgery, and would be much more dangerous.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:53 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Can't find it now, but I just today read an established US Christian oriented studio is moving forward with a rather large budget ($30-$60MM) stab at this. Not to have a "christian" rewrite (thankfully) but an "inspirational" take on it. There's some Thai connection to the American owner/producer... IIRC, he lives there.

If I could recall their previous "known" christian angle film that was mentioned, I'd be able to search out their name... sadly I don't. Have at it Google sleuths.
It'll be interesting to see how it copes with the 'devil' horn hand gestures from the boys' hospital beds.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:56 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder if they will install a locking gate/grid/wall at the entrance to prevent any entry for the rainy months.

That same scenario could happen again and this cave will be very popular now with many more visitors.
Apparently, the Thai tourist board plans to turn it it into a museum.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:00 PM   #458
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This link includes a lengthy video from the Thai SEALs' Facebook page.
http://www.asiaone.com/asia/thai-cav...ham-luang-cave
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:02 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder if they will install a locking gate/grid/wall at the entrance to prevent any entry for the rainy months.

That same scenario could happen again and this cave will be very popular now with many more visitors.
I'm sure it would turn into a go-to destination for extreeeeme vacationers.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:13 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Anesthetized" and "sedated" are not the same things. A Thai official previously announced that the boys were given an anxiolytic, an anti-anxiety medication. Common drugs in that category would include Valium and Xanax.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...oHI/story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiolytic

A sedative would still leave them breathing on their own and probably conscious enough to communicate some. A general anesthetic would knock them out completely, as if for surgery, and would be much more dangerous.
Sure, but I agree that having someone who was an anaesthetist on hand would still be handy in the former case.

My point was that he was there because he is one of the world's leading experts on cave diving. The fact that he was also an anaesthetist was a bonus.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:07 PM   #461
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An NY Times overview of the rescue:

Quote:
The most important piece of the rescue was good luck, said Maj. Gen. Chalongchai Chaiyakham, the deputy commander of the Third Army region, which helped the operation. So many things could have gone wrong, but somehow we managed to get the boys out.

I still cant believe it worked, he said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/w...ww.nytimes.com
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:12 PM   #462
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:20 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Anesthetized" and "sedated" are not the same things. A Thai official previously announced that the boys were given an anxiolytic, an anti-anxiety medication. Common drugs in that category would include Valium and Xanax.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...oHI/story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiolytic

A sedative would still leave them breathing on their own and probably conscious enough to communicate some. A general anesthetic would knock them out completely, as if for surgery, and would be much more dangerous.
Good point - I circled back to the wrong term because of his job description. But aren't there variations on anaesthetics? There's one picture of a kid on a stretcher who seems to be out like a light.
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Old 13th July 2018, 12:42 AM   #464
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Does it really matter exactly what was used or what their level of consciousness was? I don't think anyone is going to come clean on this, there seems to be a reluctance to explain what they did although I don't really know why that should be so. Whatever it was, it worked brilliantly, and the guys who planned and executed it deserve the highest commendation.

I just wonder if the reticence might be because something like ketamine was involved, which has a bad name as a drug of abuse and could be turned into all sorts of lurid headlines. I'm very out of date in this field but I think ketamine would have been a likely choice for the job.

ETA: Something else occurred to me when reading the excellent NYT article, and the bit where they described one of the stretchers with a boy on board being lost in the cave and almost not recovered. It was always on the cards that something would go wrong while a stretcher was in transit. It might get hopelessly stuck, or drift away and fail to be recovered. Suppose a conscious child was in it? I think sober assessment of the situation would indicate anaesthesia deep enough so that if that happened to a child he wouldn't be aware of it. He just wouldn't wake up. (As I recall my training, ketamine produces something called "dissociative anaesthesia" which would be a good condition for this sort of purpose.)
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:40 AM   #465
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Talking of crappy diagrams, here's the one from the NYT article that shows it as it really was. So much for the boyish figure swimming expertly in flippers and handling an air cylinder through a tiny gap. The BBC should be ashamed of itself. (But no longer is, and I'm not talking about this minor slip, that's just emblematic of the disastrous fall in journalistic standards.)

https://twitter.com/DougSaunders/sta...17181599850496
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:09 AM   #466
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Great NY Times article. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. The eleventh boy was 'lost' for almost an hour, as divers lost the guide rope and then had trouble relocating it in a submerged cave where visibility was zero. Just when you thought all was going smoothly.

The finale is sheer Hollywood in terms of escaping tragedy by the skin of one's teeth:

Quote:
Then, when it was seemingly all over, a drainage pump to minimize flooding failed. What had been waist-high water surged to chest level in a vicious torrent where Kaew was standing, about a half-mile inside the cave’s mouth. Kaew, who had no scuba gear with him, scrambled to higher ground, barely escaping the final deluge.
It was a chaotic finale to the rescue. Many of the divers and residents of the nearby northern Thai town of Mae Sai saw the last-minute flood as a sign that divine protection had ceased only after all were safe.
For the entire mission, Kaew had wrapped a Buddha amulet hanging on his neck with waterproof tape. “The cave is sacred,” he said. “It was protected until the very end.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/w...ww.nytimes.com

It strikes me these caves must be hundreds of thousands of years old, and never been fully mapped. Who knows what ghosts and skeletons lie therein? We can see why exploring them would seem VERY attractive to naturally curious young people.

Book your next holiday to...Pattaya Beach...a beach with a difference!
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Old 13th July 2018, 06:40 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It'll be interesting to see how it copes with the 'devil' horn hand gestures from the boys' hospital beds.
Those kids have been through heaven and hell. And the rescuers must've seemed like a rainbow in the dark - they were holy divers for sure. Good thing the kids didn't have to die young.
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Old 13th July 2018, 06:58 AM   #468
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Jesus Christ people just are not going to be happy until they find something sinister and evil about this rescue are they?

Are people just goddamn allergic to good news?
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Old 13th July 2018, 07:03 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ people just are not going to be happy until they find something sinister and evil about this rescue are they?

Are people just goddamn allergic to good news?
There's gotta be an evil conspiracy somewhere. There's just gotta.
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Old 13th July 2018, 07:12 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ people just are not going to be happy until they find something sinister and evil about this rescue are they?

Are people just goddamn allergic to good news?
Joe, stop nitpicking and complaining and just be happy.
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Old 13th July 2018, 07:36 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ people just are not going to be happy until they find something sinister and evil about this rescue are they?

Are people just goddamn allergic to good news?
Some of us are interested simply in what happened and how it happened. (Discounting one particularly contrarian poster who I believe is just playing around.)

The real pissing contests here happened behind the scenes and out of the interests of those in the west. The Thai press was disgraceful. The in-fighting between the various ministries and provincial authorities was petty and stupid. Yet somehow through this, the Navy guys managed enough professionalism and humility to cooperate cross-culturally and pull off a remarkable feat.

Any questions remaining are more of a curious nature than finger-pointing or blame-assigning.

Maybe this just isn't the thread for you. The Happy News Sentinel signed off days ago. Boys rescued. Hooray.
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Old 13th July 2018, 07:52 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ people just are not going to be happy until they find something sinister and evil about this rescue are they?

Are people just goddamn allergic to good news?
Yeah- Fundamentalist Christians are certain to not be happy until they can turn this Buddhist story into a Jesus-invoked miracle!

Oh, wait- was there a comma there?
-signed, a grammer Nazi
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:04 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Anesthetized" and "sedated" are not the same things. A Thai official previously announced that the boys were given an anxiolytic, an anti-anxiety medication. Common drugs in that category would include Valium and Xanax.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...oHI/story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiolytic

A sedative would still leave them breathing on their own and probably conscious enough to communicate some. A general anesthetic would knock them out completely, as if for surgery, and would be much more dangerous.
Midazolam (Versed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midazolam or Lorazepam (Ativan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorazepam would both be good candidates. They have several effects that would be quite useful in this case - sedative, decreased anxiety decreased effort to breathe, interferes with memory formation. The main disadvantage would seem to be that they are relatively short-acting. Both can be administered orally so maybe a booster dose would be provided en-route.

They are the go-to meds for procedures such as colonoscopies. I can say from personal experience that nothing that goes on while you are under the influence causes a person any concern at all.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:06 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Anesthetized" and "sedated" are not the same things. A Thai official previously announced that the boys were given an anxiolytic, an anti-anxiety medication. Common drugs in that category would include Valium and Xanax.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...oHI/story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiolytic

A sedative would still leave them breathing on their own and probably conscious enough to communicate some. A general anesthetic would knock them out completely, as if for surgery, and would be much more dangerous.
Exactly! And there are multiple levels of sedation. They can range from a barely detectable "just taking the edge off" state, to a more obviously relaxed state that still allows rationale communication with the patient, to a much deeper groggy state in which the patient can respond to questions but in a loopy and confused manner. None would be truly unconscious - way too dangerous.

It was very fortunate an anesthesiologist was there to choose the drugs and their dosing. Even at that I am certain some of the boys were more "out of it" than others.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:12 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It was very fortunate an anesthesiologist was there to choose the drugs and their dosing.
If one wasn't already there would they have brought an anesthesiologist to the cave?
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:24 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Can't find it now, but I just today read an established US Christian oriented studio is moving forward with a rather large budget ($30-$60MM) stab at this. Not to have a "christian" rewrite (thankfully) but an "inspirational" take on it. There's some Thai connection to the American owner/producer... IIRC, he lives there.

If I could recall their previous "known" christian angle film that was mentioned, I'd be able to search out their name... sadly I don't. Have at it Google sleuths.

Very odd. Most of the people involved in this entire event are probably Theravada Buddhists, certainly not Christians. Further, isn't Theravada Buddhism as practiced in Thailand largely atheistic?
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:28 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Very odd. Most of the people involved in this entire event are probably Theravada Buddhists, certainly not Christians. Further, isn't Theravada Buddhism as practiced in Thailand largely atheistic?
Religious propagandists are not known for their adherence to facts.
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Old 13th July 2018, 08:45 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Very odd. Most of the people involved in this entire event are probably Theravada Buddhists, certainly not Christians. Further, isn't Theravada Buddhism as practiced in Thailand largely atheistic?
As practiced? No.
As taught? Yes.
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Old 13th July 2018, 10:12 AM   #479
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Another detailed rescue account, with reports of ordinary people from all over Thailand pitching in however they could:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.6ad14ac09a72

One interesting footnote:
Quote:
The call for pumps went out, and they began to arrive from all over the country. Worawut Imchit drove overnight from a shrimp farm 850 miles to the south, four flatbed trucks carrying four of the massive pumps that circulate water through the ponds.

It was three sleepless days for me, said Imchit. I ran like a crazy man, up and down, back and forth between the pumps to make sure everything was functioning normally.

Within three days, more than 40 machines had arrived, Kobchai said. At more than 400,000 gallons an hour, the pumping power stabilized the water level, and lowered it on drier days. Downhill, it flooded the fields of 128 farmers, destroying their rice harvests for the year.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:08 AM   #480
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It is notable that humans are willing to risk their lives, undergo lengthy personal hardships, spend huge resources, and accept substantial collateral damage to help save the lives of other specifically identified individuals. In this case 12 boys and their coach. Yet at the same time most humans cannot summon up a fraction of the emotional involvement when the individuals at comparable risk are anonymous.

In this case the world mobilized to save 13 people- as it should be. Yet how many more people in Thailand die every year of preventable or treatable diseases without generating even the shadow of this level of intense effort from either the Thai government or the world's people as a whole? Propose a malarial eradication program that would save hundreds of people based on statistics and questions are immediately asked as to how much it is going to cost, how much effort it will take, and what damage might it do to agriculture or the economy. To save 13 in a cave? Do whatever is necessary and worry about the cost later!

BTW: I am aware that Thailand is a fairly advanced country with good public health resources and that there are international programs in place to try to control malaria. My point is how the urgent, spare-no-expense need to help others depends on the ability to identify emotionally with specific individuals in need, and that we do not typically experience the same feeling if the people in need are instead members of an anonymous group.
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