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Old 5th November 2019, 10:06 PM   #1
Orphia Nay
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The Climate Emergency

"Our goals need to shift from GDP growth and the pursuit of affluence toward sustaining ecosystems and improving human well-being by prioritizing basic needs and reducing inequality."

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/...searchresult=1

This is the study released on 5 November 2019 with 11,258 scientists' signatories from 153 countries collectively declaring the climate emergency.

This thread is not to shame anyone or hold any grudges for any past actions or comments.

The UN's Sustainable Development Goal 17 states:

"A successful sustainable development agenda requires partnerships between governments, the private sector and civil society. These inclusive partnerships built upon principles and values, a shared vision, and shared goals that place people and the planet at the centre, are needed at the global, regional, national and local level."

The internet is a place where we can feel as though we are being publicly shamed by an angry mob with pitchforks for not writing the ultimate explanation of the perfect solution to the problems of life on Planet Earth.

We've all lived and learnt different ways and have our own different reasons, and that's OK.

But now, it's not OK to insult others for being at a different stage in transitioning from humanity's currently far-from-perfect management of our shared land, water, and air.

It's possible to be assertive without being aggressive.

This applies to our interactions online, at home, on the street, in the media, and in understanding what fears and responsibilities our politicians have and those who work for us and provide services.

We have discovered our own solutions to averting or resolving conflict and can learn from others.

It's impossible to know the answer to everything even in an age of Google.

Let's discuss what changes are being made on a personal, local, regional, national, and global level.



We need causes and solutions, not labels, scapegoats, or villains.


Share stories in your area about how causes of environmental damage and inequalities are being reduced.

Tell us how sustainable methods of living and development are being implemented.





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Old 5th November 2019, 10:59 PM   #2
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Great thread ON.

At a national level, household solar panels have taken off in Australia with generous national and state government subsidies. We tend to have a lot of sun here. Solar farms are also generating more and more power, as are wind farms. It’s quite possible with enough government support (not happening) for the country to generate sustainable energy in a very short time. We need government will to achieve this, and I live in hope.

At a personal level, our house is over 40 years old and not energy efficient. We are also in shade surrounded by giant trees, so solar panels won’t work (I’ve had many people try to come up with a way). I need to drive a car for work, but I pay higher airfares to offset carbon generation. Yeah, not a paragon of virtue at this level.
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Old 5th November 2019, 11:34 PM   #3
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And stuff, as I am continually pointing out, is getting done. Installing renewable energy generation is already cheaper than coal and gas - I saw an article either yesterday or this morning (can't find it now) that suggested that in Europe, the fossil fuel industry is losing billions of euros to renewables. The renewable sector employs ten times as many people as the fossil fuel sector in the United States, and investment in renewable technology is skyrocketing.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:07 AM   #4
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Victoria Australia now has:


https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/energy...nergy-upgrades Victorian Energy Upgrades

"This Victorian Government program helps businesses and households cut power bills and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It does this by providing access to discounted energy-efficient products and services."


And here is the associated site:


https://www.victorianenergysaver.vic.gov.au/ Victorian Energy Saver - Victorian Energy Saver

Which offers all sorts of discounts on energy saving implementation.

You can get a professional to assess your home or business energy use, and they recommend tradespeople etc who can give discounts on installing energy-saving and smart home appliances and utilities.

I love this so much.

Sounds useful for you, lionking!
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:09 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And stuff, as I am continually pointing out, is getting done. Installing renewable energy generation is already cheaper than coal and gas - I saw an article either yesterday or this morning (can't find it now) that suggested that in Europe, the fossil fuel industry is losing billions of euros to renewables. The renewable sector employs ten times as many people as the fossil fuel sector in the United States, and investment in renewable technology is skyrocketing.


That is very reassuring, thanks.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:43 AM   #6
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The Climate Emergency

My town has helped economic refugees find jobs and homes away from the capital city, and holds events and weekly Language Café where friendship and knowledge is shared.

I have neighbours from the DCR and I always want to ask them lots of questions but I get nervous, and sometimes just say trivial things.

It's progressing, though, because about 5 years ago they weren't allowed in the country, and I was an extremely anxious introvert.

I'm not as introverted online, and I think I see a trend everywhere towards openness and authenticity, as we find spaces with privacy and anonymity.

Personally, the exponential accumulation of our history of knowledge, science, and communication has led to my learning about and using information technology to lose weight, find exercise I love, and discuss anxiety, and ways to end harmful habits.

I think we have an exponential accumulation of environmental information to share.

This often open source information and sharing is similar to huge free social media platforms and apps, and creativity and inventiveness such as in music, videos, software.

Altruism and fear of extinction are loving partners in a selfish desire to have a safe home to carry on the reproduction of our genes.

Some of us pay money to make others see our ideas because we are confident in our ideas, but fear the ideas of others we see as a threat to our own survival.

Fear can paralyse our openness to seeing that we can only survive if we live sustainably with them.

My neighbours fled war - the ultimate struggle to survive.

They grow food in their front garden.

I now see the other flower-filled front gardens with cut lawns through their eyes.

My mother helped settle our town's refugees. This week we planted a blood plum tree in her front garden.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:42 AM   #7
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A few simple things that everyone can do:

Reduce your consumption. You don't need a brand new car. You don't need to globe hop on vacation every trip. You don't need every new toy on the market. This usually has the added benefit of saving money, and not feeding into the commercial consumer glutton economy.

Support environmentally responsible businesses. Business provides what their customers want, in theory. When the market moves towards sustainable products and services, other companies follow suit, and the government takes action to support the newer economy.

Walk it like you talk it. Conservation is not about waving pom poms and buying an Earth Day t-shirt. It's about buying a reel lawn mower instead of a gas one when you need one. Its about weeding your lawn by hand instead of dumping chemicals on it, and maybe tolerating a less than golf-course like front-yard. Basically, every time you pull out your wallet or purse, you are making an environmental impact. Ask yourself if you really need the thing, and if there is a way to make a more environmentally-friendly choice.
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:39 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A few simple things that everyone can do:

Reduce your consumption. You don't need a brand new car. You don't need to globe hop on vacation every trip. You don't need every new toy on the market. This usually has the added benefit of saving money, and not feeding into the commercial consumer glutton economy.

Support environmentally responsible businesses. Business provides what their customers want, in theory. When the market moves towards sustainable products and services, other companies follow suit, and the government takes action to support the newer economy.

Walk it like you talk it. Conservation is not about waving pom poms and buying an Earth Day t-shirt. It's about buying a reel lawn mower instead of a gas one when you need one. Its about weeding your lawn by hand instead of dumping chemicals on it, and maybe tolerating a less than golf-course like front-yard. Basically, every time you pull out your wallet or purse, you are making an environmental impact. Ask yourself if you really need the thing, and if there is a way to make a more environmentally-friendly choice.
Sensible and sound advice.
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:44 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You don't need a brand new car.
No, but newer cars are more fuel efficient and less polluting.
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, but newer cars are more fuel efficient and less polluting.
They are. But one of those counter-intuitive things is that the carbon impact of new vehicle construction, even over the life of an electric car, is larger than maintaining an older one.

Maintaining what is already on the market has lower overall impact than building new. It's more environmentally sound to wash your clothes than to buy new, even though you are burning resources to clean them. New cars should be built to the highest pollution and efficiency standards that are feasible, because they will become tomorrow's used cars. But paradoxally, that first new car buyer is doing more harm than good.
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, but newer cars are more fuel efficient and less polluting.
Yes. But you have to balance that against the carbon cost of building a new car.

Which scenario has the lower carbon cost?:

Scenario 1: Retire older, less efficient car at 150,000 miles and replace it with a more efficient car for the next 100,000 miles. (Carbon cost of manufacturing new car + 100k miles with efficient car)

Scenario 2: Run the older car for 250,000 miles before replacing it with the more efficient car. (carbon cost of 100k miles with less efficient car).

Obviously, the results are going to vary depending on just how pronounced the efficiency difference between the two cars is. But the lower carbon cost may very well tilt in favor of getting more miles out of the car that has already been built. A lot just depends in how mechanically sound the old car is, as repairs and replacement of parts starts to incur a carbon cost of its own, in addition to oil leaks or other issues. At some point it may not meet emissions standards any more, and require extensive repairs to get back up to specs. At some point it gets to be more efficient to get a new efficient car than to keep running the old car - but when? To add to the complication, few people just scrap older cars, they get sold and run some more. I don't know how common it is to just scrap a car due to mechanical issues not related to crashes or other one-time damage.

Last edited by crescent; 6th November 2019 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:01 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They are. But one of those counter-intuitive things is that the carbon impact of new vehicle construction, even over the life of an electric car, is larger than maintaining an older one.
Of course. Once you get the modern car, you should keep it as long as possible.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:06 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Of course. Once you get the modern car, you should keep it as long as possible.
Agreed. Possibly better, though, to buy a newer low-mileage used car.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. Possibly better, though, to buy a newer low-mileage used car.
No way I'm buying someone else's problems, though.

I kept my previous car for over 15 years. I think I did good.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:15 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No way I'm buying someone else's problems, though.

I kept my previous car for over 15 years. I think I did good.
That's very good. Not common in the US, though.

Here, a lot of new vehicles go out on lease programs for those who want the flash of the latest car without the financial commitment. My wife's last car was one with 36K miles on it, looked like new, and has served her reliably for 8 years now.

Mine is a salvage title. Literally a totalled work van welded together out of a newer wrecked one and spare parts from others. Over 200k miles now, and probably the most reliable truck I've ever had. Not pretty, tho.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:50 PM   #16
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Refuse
Re-think
Reduce
Re-use
Re-gift
Repair
Refurbish
Re-manufacture
Repurpose
Recycle
Reinvent
Recover
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Victoria Australia now has:


https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/energy...nergy-upgrades Victorian Energy Upgrades

"This Victorian Government program helps businesses and households cut power bills and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It does this by providing access to discounted energy-efficient products and services."


And here is the associated site:


https://www.victorianenergysaver.vic.gov.au/ Victorian Energy Saver - Victorian Energy Saver

Which offers all sorts of discounts on energy saving implementation.

You can get a professional to assess your home or business energy use, and they recommend tradespeople etc who can give discounts on installing energy-saving and smart home appliances and utilities.

I love this so much.

Sounds useful for you, lionking!
I will get someone out to have a look at the house. Thanks for that. I forgot to mention we have energy saving lights.
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Old 6th November 2019, 04:20 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Yes. But you have to balance that against the carbon cost of building a new car.

Which scenario has the lower carbon cost?:

Scenario 1: Retire older, less efficient car at 150,000 miles and replace it with a more efficient car for the next 100,000 miles. (Carbon cost of manufacturing new car + 100k miles with efficient car)

Scenario 2: Run the older car for 250,000 miles before replacing it with the more efficient car. (carbon cost of 100k miles with less efficient car).

Obviously, the results are going to vary depending on just how pronounced the efficiency difference between the two cars is. But the lower carbon cost may very well tilt in favor of getting more miles out of the car that has already been built. A lot just depends in how mechanically sound the old car is, as repairs and replacement of parts starts to incur a carbon cost of its own, in addition to oil leaks or other issues. At some point it may not meet emissions standards any more, and require extensive repairs to get back up to specs. At some point it gets to be more efficient to get a new efficient car than to keep running the old car - but when? To add to the complication, few people just scrap older cars, they get sold and run some more. I don't know how common it is to just scrap a car due to mechanical issues not related to crashes or other one-time damage.


Even Mexico has national smog standards nearly up to European levels. The old junkers get sold, but at a price where expired tags and a smokey engine are factored in. Usually dirt cheap or less.
The buyer has to bring it up to legal emissions standards and all other legal driving issues or it will not get plates and rights to circulate.
Get caught driving it anyway, and you'll be better off financially leaving it in impound and just get another. It's a pretty stiff price for a junk car.

Old cars are going to junkyards in huge numbers since the laws were enforced better. Trucks tend to get rebuilt more and kept up to snuff as they hold much higher value.

A side effect of this is the price of scrap tin has nearly tanked. Supply is way up, demand hasn't risen equally.
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Old 6th November 2019, 05:14 PM   #19
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Australia’s main grid reaches 50 per cent renewables for first time

Quote:
Australia’s main grid – known as the National Electricity Market – broke through the 50 per cent benchmark for renewable energy in one trading period on Wednesday, the first time that half of net demand had been met by renewables.

The milestone was reached at 1150 (NEM time, which is AEST), when the combined output of rooftop solar, large-scale wind, and large-scale solar reached 50.2 per cent of the near 25GW being produced on the main grid, which includes Queensland, NSW, Victoria, Tasmania and South Australia, but not Western Australia or the Northern Territory.

Rooftop solar provided nearly half the renewables output, or 23.7 per cent, followed by wind (15.7 per cent), large-scale solar (8.8 per cent) and hydro just 1.9 per cent.
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Old 6th November 2019, 06:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:03 PM   #21
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Further to the Vic Government Energy Saver program is this

https://compare.energy.vic.gov.au/

Victorians get $50 free, just for doing an online comparison between energy providers in their area.

I did it last year, and it told me that out of the many, many companies, one I'd researched earlier in the year and switched to was the second cheapest service I could get.

I'd chosen Momentum because of its excellent rates on electricity and gas, but also very importantly is that the power it feeds back into the grid is from Tasmanian hydroelectric power.

My bills were reduced by 30% p.a. compared to Origin, my previous provider.

It was a no-brainer to stay with Momentum because of the green energy.

About 8 weeks after I did the comparison, I received my $50 cheque in the mail.

Win, win, win!
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:55 PM   #22
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Another local action: find out where you can recycle things beyond the municipal collection. We have collection points at supermarkets for single use plastic bags (for those still using them). Some towns have k-cup recycling collection point (for those who use those tasteless and wasteful things regularly).

Local Goodwilll stores accept old electronics to harvest the metals out of. Many people don't know that you are not supposed to throw electronics in the trash.

Take scrap metal to the junkyard when you accumulate a substantial amount. Not to discard; they buy it from you by the pound. If you don't want to collect it in your yard, you might be able to leave it alongside your trash the night before collection. Where I live, salvage guys police the trash before pickup to grab available metals.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:22 PM   #23
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We pay an eco fee for a lot of things that we buy and it's "free" to take it to the recycling depot to dispose of. Right now I have two aluminum frying pans and a vacuum to get rid of.

As an aside...I don't think I've ever bought a beer in a plastic bottle anywhere in the world. I don't know why the fizzy pop and water industries cant go with aluminum cans.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
As an aside...I don't think I've ever bought a beer in a plastic bottle anywhere in the world. I don't know why the fizzy pop and water industries cant go with aluminum cans.
I suspect the correct question is actually the reverse: why can't beer come in plastic bottles?

And I think the answer is UV radiation. UV radiation from sunlight does very bad things to beer over time, and plastic bottles can't protect beer against that UV radiation. Both glass and aluminum can. Soda and water don't have the same problem, they don't "skunk" from light exposure, so making them with plastic isn't a problem.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:45 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Reduce your consumption. You don't need a brand new car. You don't need to globe hop on vacation every trip. You don't need every new toy on the market. This usually has the added benefit of saving money, and not feeding into the commercial consumer glutton economy.
A lot of people are going to be thrown out of work if demand is reduced like this.

We need an economic system that doesn't demand perpetual growth first.
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Old 6th November 2019, 10:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
We pay an eco fee for a lot of things that we buy and it's "free" to take it to the recycling depot to dispose of. Right now I have two aluminum frying pans and a vacuum to get rid of.

As an aside...I don't think I've ever bought a beer in a plastic bottle anywhere in the world. I don't know why the fizzy pop and water industries cant go with aluminum cans.
They do, but only for smaller quantities. It's a bit tricky creating a lightweight 2.2 litre aluminium can of pressurized liquid.
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Old 7th November 2019, 12:29 AM   #27
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A lot of people are going to be thrown out of work if demand is reduced like this.

We need an economic system that doesn't demand perpetual growth first.
There can also be growth in production of new technologies for recycling, communication, energy networks.

There is also Universal Basic Income that the monthly stipend gets more and more feasible the more consumption is reduced, the more pay becomes equal, and local economic systems become more circular.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Of course. Once you get the modern car, you should keep it as long as possible.
Yes, but before you get it, even if you have an old and more polluting car it's better to keep it and maintain it well for as long as you can, than to upgrade to that modern car sooner.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:42 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
As an aside...I don't think I've ever bought a beer in a plastic bottle anywhere in the world. I don't know why the fizzy pop and water industries cant go with aluminum cans.
I haven't seen water, but you don't have soda cans?

They have plastic as well, but everywhere I go seems to have soda in aluminium cans, it's just only for small sizes.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"Our goals need to shift from GDP growth and the pursuit of affluence.....

Share stories in your area about how causes of environmental damage and inequalities are being reduced.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have never bought an iphone.
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Old 7th November 2019, 06:03 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
We need an economic system that doesn't demand perpetual growth first.

You're an anti-capitalist now? Welcome!
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Old 7th November 2019, 06:35 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I haven't seen water, but you don't have soda cans?

They have plastic as well, but everywhere I go seems to have soda in aluminium cans, it's just only for small sizes.
Yes, we have soda cans and yes they're small sizes,. I suppose I should have used a word like exclusively in my previous post. So beer goes funky in plastic, that's not something I'd thought of and makes sense.

Still no real reason to buy a soda in a 300-500 ml plastic bottle unless you really feel the need to recap it.
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A lot of people are going to be thrown out of work if demand is reduced like this.

We need an economic system that doesn't demand perpetual growth first.
You can’t generalize overall economic impact from looking at increase/decreases in demand for an individual product or service. If the price of burgers at McDonalds goes up, I may decide to spend my money on different food at some other restraint, or I may use that money to subscribe to another streaming service. Either way I still spend the money so aggregate demand doesn’t decrease. The same applied to products with high carbon footprints. If demand for these decreases, demands for lower carbon footprint services increases. These can either be goods/service that accomplish the same thing or completely different goods/service, it doesn’t matter.

Increasing the price of high carbon footprint goods/services via a carbon price doesn’t “make things more expensive” it creates demand for other goods/service and significant opportunities for new innovative businesses to produce desirable low carbon footprint goods/service. This is where real change wrt CO2 emission is going to happen.

Our current economy is heavily skewed towards high CO2 output because we effacingly subsidize CO2 emissions. We make them free in spite of the long-term costs associated with them. IOW the benefits go to those emitting CO2 while all the costs are socialized. These benefits are so ingrained that even if we desire a lower carbon lifestyle that it’s impossible to avoid, but it doesn’t need to be this way. Our economy works this way ONLY because we subsidize CO2 emissions to begin with. End these subsidies with a carbon price and our economy will adjust, and adjust much more quickly and easily than the fear mongers would have you believe.
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Old 7th November 2019, 10:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You can’t generalize overall economic impact from looking at increase/decreases in demand for an individual product or service. If the price of burgers at McDonalds goes up, I may decide to spend my money on different food at some other restraint, or I may use that money to subscribe to another streaming service. Either way I still spend the money so aggregate demand doesn’t decrease. The same applied to products with high carbon footprints. If demand for these decreases, demands for lower carbon footprint services increases. These can either be goods/service that accomplish the same thing or completely different goods/service, it doesn’t matter.

Increasing the price of high carbon footprint goods/services via a carbon price doesn’t “make things more expensive” it creates demand for other goods/service and significant opportunities for new innovative businesses to produce desirable low carbon footprint goods/service. This is where real change wrt CO2 emission is going to happen.

Our current economy is heavily skewed towards high CO2 output because we effacingly subsidize CO2 emissions. We make them free in spite of the long-term costs associated with them. IOW the benefits go to those emitting CO2 while all the costs are socialized. These benefits are so ingrained that even if we desire a lower carbon lifestyle that it’s impossible to avoid, but it doesn’t need to be this way. Our economy works this way ONLY because we subsidize CO2 emissions to begin with. End these subsidies with a carbon price and our economy will adjust, and adjust much more quickly and easily than the fear mongers would have you believe.
I think psion10 was referring to my urging to reduce consumption, not exchange one consumption for a more energy efficient consumption. Which is a valid point; manufacturing would decrease (presumably hurting China more than the States). That is unfortunately the point, though. The USA sucks up disproportionate resources. We need to knock it off.
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Old 7th November 2019, 10:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"Our goals need to shift from GDP growth and the pursuit of affluence toward sustaining ecosystems and improving human well-being "
This is flawed reasoning IMO. Market systems are very good at maximizing wealth creation under the preconditions we set for it, and history tells us time and time again that maximizing human well-being and maximizing wealth creation go hand in hand. Market systems, however, are still subject to the pre-conditions set for them so they are not immune to GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) .

There is a pervasive but failed economic philosophy that hold that all you need to do is avoid making mistakes when setting these underlying conditions and everything will take care of itself. Climate change is one example of where/why it fails, in this case it fails because CO2 emissions represent an externality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
Quote:
In economics, an externality is the cost or benefit that affects a party who did not choose to incur that cost or benefit.[1] Externalities often occur when a product or service's price equilibrium cannot reflect the true costs and benefits of that product or service.[2] This causes the externality competitive equilibrium to not be a Pareto optimality.
In the presence of an externality or other market failure a market system will not find the optimal spot to maximize overall wealth and overall well-being usually suffers as a result. This is not, however, a problem with the market system it's a problem with the pre-conditions we have set for it so it's a case of GIGO not a problem with the system itself.
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:04 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think psion10 was referring to my urging to reduce consumption
And my point was that real aggregate consumption doesn’t really goes down, we just change what we consume.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
manufacturing would decrease (presumably hurting China more than the States).
Even if overall demand for manufacture goods drops this is not something to be particular fearful of. The fraction of our consumption that goes to manufactured goods has been already dropping for decades in developed countries. And again, even if demand for some high carbon footprint manufacture goods drops, it still doesn’t follow that overall demand for them drops because any drop in one type of goods creates new demand for other types.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That is unfortunately the point, though. The USA sucks up disproportionate resources. We need to knock it off.
This depends on how you define resources. If human labor/effort are considered a resource then India wastes far more each year than the US consumes because there are a lot of resources going in but very little value coming out.

The problem with climate change is that CO2 emissions should be limited and it isn’t. Who gets what share of the emission that are within acceptable ranges are a separate issue.
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Old 8th November 2019, 12:46 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I have never bought an iphone.
Heh, thanks, I hadn't seen a post in here I'd done via Tapatalk. Fixed that automatic signature.

I've had my phone for over 4 years, and it's still good.


As for the article, it's got tunnelvision, focusing only on the losses and not on the gains.

"We found that the relative emissions share of smartphones is expected to grow from four per cent in 2010 to 11 per cent by 2020, dwarfing the individual contributions of PCs, laptops and computer displays."

It doesn't realise it's saying that use those other devices has declined in tandem.

AND the use of print media paper, ink, energy, printers, etc.

And again, in tandem, phone energy is being created more and more by green energy production methods.

And again, phones here are now all recycled for parts (I hope - I know many service providers do it, and places to take them).

More and more people know how to repair phones, here, and in low-income countries.
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Old 8th November 2019, 01:07 AM   #38
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"Our goals need to shift from GDP growth and the pursuit of affluence toward sustaining ecosystems and improving human well-being "

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This is flawed reasoning IMO. Market systems are very good at maximizing wealth creation under the preconditions we set for it, and history tells us time and time again that maximizing human well-being and maximizing wealth creation go hand in hand. Market systems, however, are still subject to the pre-conditions set for them so they are not immune to GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) .

There is a pervasive but failed economic philosophy that hold that all you need to do is avoid making mistakes when setting these underlying conditions and everything will take care of itself. Climate change is one example of where/why it fails, in this case it fails because CO2 emissions represent an externality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality


In the presence of an externality or other market failure a market system will not find the optimal spot to maximize overall wealth and overall well-being usually suffers as a result. This is not, however, a problem with the market system it's a problem with the pre-conditions we have set for it so it's a case of GIGO not a problem with the system itself.
I've been saying the same thing all along. You just joined the thread and had to catch up a lot, and that was only the first sentence in the OP.


The Economy will no longer be measured by GDP increases or losses, but on (as that links to),

"Ecological economics criticizes the concept of externality" which doesn't have enough "system thinking and integration of different sciences in the concept."


We will have more leisure time, and more income / prosperity / open source wealth as time goes on.

We will transition from more of a top-down 1% profiteering economy to more of a level-playing-field barter economy of technology, software, art, food, information, sharing environment.

I've been saying Jeremy Rifkin and Rutger Bregman (I'm a fan of both) need to meet up.
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Old 8th November 2019, 07:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You can’t generalize overall economic impact from looking at increase/decreases in demand for an individual product or service.
Actually you can. A collapse in one sector can mean greater unemployment and more debt defaults in that sector. This has the effect of reducing overall demand in other sectors (because of reduced aggregate spending power) which can cause other collapses and the effect snowballs.

That is not to say that you can't divert expenditure from non-renewable to renewable fuels but that alone is not sufficient. As long as perpetual growth is necessary, it is difficult to even achieve this much. A stagnant (no growth) economy is a declining economy and this is what needs to be changed.
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Old 8th November 2019, 08:06 PM   #40
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I read these threads and sometimes it is like some people actually wan't businesses to make a loss, or at least not make a profit and have to sack workers causing poverty.


Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick and if so I apologise

But it is like every now and again people forget how a basic economy works.

Small businesses start. Hire people. Those people have a wage
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