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Old 12th September 2019, 06:41 PM   #161
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Your 2nd straw man in our discussion..
What? Now I am hurt!

I have created no strawmen at all!

And, seriously... how do you call this a strawman?

Quote:
I don't know what you mean by "valid argument" in this case, or how you rule that "the only valid argument against X is Y".
Look what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The only valid argument against veganism, is the one where someone doesn't wish to practice it.
It's exactly the form of your argument.


Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It's only clear that one person (eerok), not 'people', made that argument.
Meh! Is that what's left of your point? Ah, you said people, but I only count one people...er...person! Ha ha! I win!

Okay, one internet point. You win the game.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:57 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Denying children bacon, is child abuse!
I've never had children bacon, is it healthier than the regular kind? I've not been impressed with turkey bacon.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:23 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've never had children bacon, is it healthier than the regular kind? I've not been impressed with turkey bacon.
I have heard that human flesh tastes similar to pork (I've not had an opportunity to confirm this personally). If that is the case, I would think that children bacon (or even adult bacon) would be more like regular bacon than turkey bacon. The trouble with turkey bacon is that it is way too lean. This of course, makes it healthier than the stuff made from pork bellies, but let's face it, the fat is a big part of what makes bacon so yummy. That being the case, I would think that you would want to make children bacon from obese American children, not from starving children from third world **** holes.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:28 AM   #164
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Actually, I've been reading the testimonials of cannibals. One insisted human flesh is practically identical to veal, whereas others compare it to regular beef, some noting it's a bit stringy but not so much as to ruin the experience. I suspect the texture has much to do with which part of the body it came from. But so far I haven't read any authoritative claims of human tasting like pork.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:00 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It's exactly the form of your argument.

Mia culpa... Saying " the only " is where I went wrong...
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:20 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Actually, I've been reading the testimonials of cannibals. One insisted human flesh is practically identical to veal, whereas others compare it to regular beef, some noting it's a bit stringy but not so much as to ruin the experience. I suspect the texture has much to do with which part of the body it came from. But so far I haven't read any authoritative claims of human tasting like pork.
I believe the Aztecs likened Pork to Human Flesh.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:29 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I believe the Aztecs likened Pork to Human Flesh.
Oohh, so it was the other way around. They were cannibals long before the Spaniards brought the pig to the New World.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:31 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I've never had children bacon, is it healthier than the regular kind? I've not been impressed with turkey bacon.
It's better if you cook it in baby oil.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:31 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I believe the Aztecs likened Pork to Human Flesh.
I find centuries-old hearsay less credible than 20th and 21st century primary sources, though.
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Old 13th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
One important factor is that there's a lot of evidence that the human body produces its own B12 in the gut, and that for many people this is sufficient for good health.

Got a cite for that? I just looked for this and couldn't find much to support it. Practically everything I found says humans produce B12 in the colon which is too late for it to be absorbed. There is some shaky evidence that in certain regions of India people may have B12 producing bacteria in the small intestines where it can be absorbed. If so, the most likely reason to explain how the bacteria gets there is because they are drinking water contaminated with feces. That's a bit speculative though, an alternative explanation is that they are getting their B12 from the water itself, again because it's contaminated with feces.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:42 PM   #171
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Hmm, does B12 pass the dirt--> veggie barrier? Do veggies grown in soil fertilized with manure pick up the B12? It's water soluble, but I've always heard that plants can only absorb inorganics. But there have been epidemics of food poisonings caused by e-coli within the veggies.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:56 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Hmm, does B12 pass the dirt--> veggie barrier? Do veggies grown in soil fertilized with manure pick up the B12?
Apparently it does but it doesn't seem to be practical for a variety of reasons. You need too much manure, possibly even resorting to large scale use of human sewage. You don't get much benefit: Doubling the B12 in a plant is a large relative change but since you're essentially starting with zero the result is still essentially near zero.

I'll see if I can find a link.

ETA:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00007957

One study reported doubling the amount of B12 in spinach but it still wasn't a useful quantity. One study suggests that vitamin enriched water might lead to practical levels but I don't see how that would industrialize, it would be far far more efficient to just fortify bottled water for humans.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:14 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Actually, I've been reading the testimonials of cannibals. One insisted human flesh is practically identical to veal, whereas others compare it to regular beef, some noting it's a bit stringy but not so much as to ruin the experience. I suspect the texture has much to do with which part of the body it came from. But so far I haven't read any authoritative claims of human tasting like pork.
Can't supply a personal experience or even a first hand account, but it is generally known pork meat has a chemical composition very similar to human flesh - to the point there were (are?) experiments being made with transplanting pig's organ into humans. I would guess this similarity would show on the taste as well.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:17 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I find centuries-old hearsay less credible than 20th and 21st century primary sources, though.
So you didn't actually look anything up?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-...like_n_5233724
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:51 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
So you didn't actually look anything up?
As I said above, I have been reading first-person accounts. I don't know why that wouldn't count but Googling the frickin HuffPo would.
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Old 13th September 2019, 08:57 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The primary argument against veganism for me is that you're simply missing out on so much tastiness.
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I AGREE
Mitchell and Webb aside, if this is your primary argument, youíre simply not trying.

I love my meat and my cooking and having people over for dinner.
We have very close friends who are vegetarians.
I have always found interesting, satisfying and tasting vegetarian dishes to serve up.

This main dish I served up last weekend satisfied the 3 other carnivores at the table and Iíd be confident in serving it up to non-vegetarians.

ďNot tastyĒ is simply a non-argument.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:18 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As I said above, I have been reading first-person accounts. I don't know why that wouldn't count but Googling the frickin HuffPo would.
Because they give a first person account of a recent German Cannibal. (probably)
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:29 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Mitchell and Webb aside, if this is your primary argument, youíre simply not trying.
You are correct. Iím not actually trying to make a persuasive argument here, AND Iím not going to try to make tasty vegetarian dishes. Cooking isnít really my thing. Itís easier for me to make something satisfying with meat than without it, and Iím too lazy to put in the effort to learn, let alone cook, a veggie alternative. And Iím OK with that.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:47 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are correct. Iím not actually trying to make a persuasive argument here, AND Iím not going to try to make tasty vegetarian dishes. Cooking isnít really my thing. Itís easier for me to make something satisfying with meat than without it, and Iím too lazy to put in the effort to learn, let alone cook, a veggie alternative. And Iím OK with that.
So your previous post should really have read...
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The primary argument against veganism for me is that you're simply missing out on so much tastiness laziness.
Except for Mitchell and Webb.
They are always on topic and insightful.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:28 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Got a cite for that? I just looked for this and couldn't find much to support it. Practically everything I found says humans produce B12 in the colon which is too late for it to be absorbed. There is some shaky evidence that in certain regions of India people may have B12 producing bacteria in the small intestines where it can be absorbed. If so, the most likely reason to explain how the bacteria gets there is because they are drinking water contaminated with feces. That's a bit speculative though, an alternative explanation is that they are getting their B12 from the water itself, again because it's contaminated with feces.
This was an interesting, albeit small, study that showed villagers in Iran who consumed very little animal protein had normal B12 levels. There are a few other studies I've read but I'll have to find them later. I agree that the evidence is fairly scanty, but it's clear that some people don't require a dietary source. I'm certainly biased because I myself am a clear example of someone, like these Iranian villagers, who is somehow fully stocked up on B12 without ever consuming it dietarily.

Quote:
Serum vitamin B12 concentrations in twenty-three villagers of Iran consuming a diet extremely low in animal protein and presumably in vitamin B12 content did not differ significantly from that found in twenty-three villagers who ate animal protein and who presumably received adequate amounts of the vitamin. Possible explanations are offered for this finding. The serum vitamin B12 concentrations were not significantly different from those found in normal persons in the United States. This study indicates that vitamin B12 deficiency caused only by a deficient diet must be very rare."
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/articl.../3/374/4787274
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:20 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
So your previous post should really have read...
Except for Mitchell and Webb.
They are always on topic and insightful.
No, that doesnít work. I am lazy, but If it were just laziness, I could do veggie meals even easier. They just wouldnít taste good. But taste matters.
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:59 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As I said above, I have been reading first-person accounts. ...
Not good enough to go back for seconds I guess.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:02 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
This was an interesting, albeit small, study that showed villagers in Iran who consumed very little animal protein had normal B12 levels. There are a few other studies I've read but I'll have to find them later. I agree that the evidence is fairly scanty, but it's clear that some people don't require a dietary source. I'm certainly biased because I myself am a clear example of someone, like these Iranian villagers, who is somehow fully stocked up on B12 without ever consuming it dietarily.



https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/articl.../3/374/4787274
Too early in the day/dr One possible explanation is that they might have been lying about their diet.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:06 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Mitchell and Webb aside, if this is your primary argument, youíre simply not trying.

I love my meat and my cooking and having people over for dinner.
We have very close friends who are vegetarians.
I have always found interesting, satisfying and tasting vegetarian dishes to serve up.

This main dish I served up last weekend satisfied the 3 other carnivores at the table and Iíd be confident in serving it up to non-vegetarians.

ďNot tastyĒ is simply a non-argument.
I wouldn't serve a guest vegetarian fare for the same reason I don't serve communion wafers to catholics- go practice your religion somewhere else.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:16 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I wouldn't serve a guest vegetarian fare for the same reason I don't serve communion wafers to catholics- go practice your religion somewhere else.
I guess that's where we differ.

I'd serve guests something that I think they might enjoy and be able to eat. From time to time I've had to accommodate a range of religious and dietary restrictions and a vegetarian or vegan meal may be the best way of doing that and still deliver something that's delicious.

Then again I'm not the kind of "my house, my rules" kind of person that would rather make a point than make his guests feel comfortable.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:24 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess that's where we differ.

I'd serve guests something that I think they might enjoy and be able to eat. From time to time I've had to accommodate a range of religious and dietary restrictions and a vegetarian or vegan meal may be the best way of doing that and still deliver something that's delicious.

Then again I'm not the kind of "my house, my rules" kind of person that would rather make a point than make his guests feel comfortable.
You would be hospitable to vermin a person who made a healthy lifestyle choice??
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:27 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
You would be hospitable to vermin a person who made a healthy lifestyle choice??
I've even been known to provide non-alcoholic beverages - I'm a zealot I tell you
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:32 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
You would be hospitable to vermin a person who made a healthy lifestyle choice??


Or just doesn't like meat. I know when I go to friends they won't make me something I won't like or won't eat. So they don't make anything with chilli in it as they know I don't want to kill my taste buds like they have done. (Or they'll offer me an alternative)

I think that sort of "accommodation" is part of something called " friendship" and "getting along with people".
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Old 14th September 2019, 06:06 AM   #189
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I have a vegan friend (who I met here on the forum). I was his house guest a few years ago. Not knowing my dietary preferences, he purchased meat for my visit. Another vegan friend prepares meat for the meat-eaters in her family. Neither of them proselytize. Those are the two vegans I'm best acquainted with.

Remind me, who are the zealots here?
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:43 AM   #190
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I don't associate by choice with conservative christians either. I'm stuck with family though. Funny, that side is where the veggers are too. Hmmm, thinking about it now, my two nieces have chronic pancreatitis, which lead them to chronic low fat diets. Perhaps the dearth of saturated fats lead them to brain dysfunctions ?

I once invited them over for grilled rib eyes and home brew. They wouldn't eat my dinner or drink my beverage. The rib eyes had such a tender section to them, one left that on his plate thinking it was fat. ****'em, last time I had them over.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:52 AM   #191
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Of course, this thread was posted in Social Issues. The side track was in the sciency discussions.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:05 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I agree that the evidence is fairly scanty, but it's clear that some people don't require a dietary source.
No, that study does not make that clear. They have an obvious potential dietary source that they may not realize: Their food or water is contaminated with manure. They live in a farming village with manure all over it.

Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I'm certainly biased because I myself am a clear example of someone, like these Iranian villagers, who is somehow fully stocked up on B12 without ever consuming it dietarily.
No dietary source that you know of.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:18 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I'm certainly biased because I myself am a clear example of someone, like these Iranian villagers, who is somehow fully stocked up on B12 without ever consuming it dietarily.
Do you eat any processed foods, such as breakfast cereal?
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:44 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
This was an interesting, albeit small, study that showed villagers in Iran who consumed very little animal protein had normal B12 levels. There are a few other studies I've read but I'll have to find them later. I agree that the evidence is fairly scanty, but it's clear that some people don't require a dietary source. I'm certainly biased because I myself am a clear example of someone, like these Iranian villagers, who is somehow fully stocked up on B12 without ever consuming it dietarily.



https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/articl.../3/374/4787274
Umm, they lied once they ascertained that the researchers wanted to find people that claimed to eat little meat?

And how low is "a diet extremely low in animal protein ? Livers only, because they can sell the rest?

And that study was published in 1960.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:57 AM   #195
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Then too, perhaps the +/- of meat has little to do with the scant health differences? Perhaps the differences can be accounted for by +/- nuts and seeds? (I've heard one cashew per day would do it) Or +/- grains? +/- glycemic index?

Yeah, what is the proposed mechanism? We know it isn't amino acids or B12, the veggies claim they are perfect at that. Which part of "Meat" is harmful? It has to be something in ALL meats, not just the stearic acid in beef. What is it that goat meat, goose meat and Gefilte fish all have that is so bad?
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:33 PM   #196
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Perceived cruelty to animals. At least the big and obvious ones. The multitude of rodents and insects killed to get a crop to market isn't important enough to notice.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No dietary source that you know of.
Everybody inadvertently eats seven bowls of Special K in their sleep every year.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Perceived cruelty to animals. At least the big and obvious ones. The multitude of rodents and insects killed to get a crop to market isn't important enough to notice.
Then why any hoopla at all about health benefits?
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #199
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Got me swinging, I just ate a back cheeseburger.

I knew an apple producer that fought hard to get price for top grade non organic apples. The buyers played hardball for that.

The lowest grade stuff was sold locally and cheaply. Always a few snapping up everything he had. He was happy for quick sales.
One day in an ' organic ' farm market he seen his own boxes of gnarly looking apples at a higher price per pound than he got for his best. Sure, healthy food but not organic as implied .

And my own sister was buying them. Because she believed they were healthier than those big pretty waxed apples in other places.

The hoopla is in the belief I guess. It made her feel better about eating them.
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Old 14th September 2019, 02:47 PM   #200
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Back cheeseburger?
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