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Old 12th September 2019, 09:10 PM   #121
dann
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I hadn't heard of the highlighted before but I will take your word for it.

Google it!

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:13 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This proves I'm right. I have never stated a position. My argument is that your and others' concern is feigned. Your sole interest is shaming. You're using the alleged mistreatment of children in a pitiful attempt to shame.
You use the term ďallegedĒ in order to dismiss what are established facts.

This proves Iím right.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:18 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This proves I'm right. I have never stated a position. My argument is that your and others' concern is feigned. Your sole interest is shaming. You're using the alleged mistreatment of children in a pitiful attempt to shame.
You donít need to make your position explicit for it to be obvious. Your behavior and general tone tell people everything they need to know about you.

Also, you use the term ďallegedĒ in order to dismiss what are established facts in a pitiful attempt to downplay the issue.

This proves Iím right.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:01 AM   #124
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Staggering back to to OP question: what should be done about these guys, assuming they pose at least a potential threat? Criminalize their views? Not good, IMO, though hate speech is evidently criminalized (?) in some places in Europe. What do you do about something that is an abstract, or potential threat? Start a fight, perhaps by egging or milkshaking them?
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:19 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Google it!

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What kind of mindless word salad was that lawyer speaking?
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Staggering back to to OP question: what should be done about these guys, assuming they pose at least a potential threat? Criminalize their views? Not good, IMO, though hate speech is evidently criminalized (?) in some places in Europe. What do you do about something that is an abstract, or potential threat? Start a fight, perhaps by egging or milkshaking them?
Acknowledging the threat would be a good place to start.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You use the term ďallegedĒ in order to dismiss what are established facts.

This proves Iím right.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You donít need to make your position explicit for it to be obvious. Your behavior and general tone tell people everything they need to know about you.

Also, you use the term ďallegedĒ in order to dismiss what are established facts in a pitiful attempt to downplay the issue.

This proves Iím right.
Sorry for the double post.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:27 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Acknowledging the threat would be a good place to start.
What would you say the threat is?
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:17 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What would you say the threat is?
Off the top of my head? Probably all the murder and violence.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Off the top of my head? Probably all the murder and violence.
Insightful. So what should be done?
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:00 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What kind of mindless word salad was that lawyer speaking?
Perhaps Baylor understands... and he can translate for us.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:24 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Insightful. So what should be done?
I'm not sure how much insight is required for the glaringly obvious.

As far as what should be done? Why of course trampling civil liberties and repealing the 1st Amen...

Oh, wait a minute... I see what you did there. You lured right into your cleverly-laid trap and I took the bait.

Well played.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:03 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm not sure how much insight is required for the glaringly obvious.

As far as what should be done? Why of course trampling civil liberties and repealing the 1st Amen...

Oh, wait a minute... I see what you did there. You lured right into your cleverly-laid trap and I took the bait.

Well played.
*rubs temples*

No. 'insightful' was pretty obviously sarcastic. You know, because you didn't say anything.

The 'what to do' is quite serious, and part of the OP question.
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:43 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Acknowledging the threat would be a good place to start.
Indeed.

2) monitor law enforcement - and when you find anyone associated spewing racism, they aren't allowed to work in any job related to the law any more. This, of course, should be part of a larger police/law enforcement effort, but should extend to prosecutors and judges as well.

3) Shut down/block sites like 8chan as they show up, and insist that sites like Youtube and Twitter do better at filtering things (here's a story of a woman that created a 95% accurate dick pic filter, in a week. Facebook can't figure this out, with their wealth?).

And figure out what a hate group is, for pity's sake! (Yes, this part is a major part of the problem, as we've seen repeatedly with the reactions random groups of nonwhite people [CARAVANS! BLM are terrorists!] compared to overtly violent groups like the Proud Boys or militia groups.)
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:05 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*rubs temples*

No. 'insightful' was pretty obviously sarcastic. You know, because you didn't say anything.

The 'what to do' is quite serious, and part of the OP question.
If you want serious responses, you should try engaging in the discussion with a little less disingenuousness.

Itís pointless to explain quadratic equations to someone who denies the existence of math.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:06 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You don’t need to make your position explicit for it to be obvious. Your behavior and general tone tell people everything they need to know about you.

Also, you use the term “alleged” in order to dismiss what are established facts in a pitiful attempt to downplay the issue.

This proves I’m right.
Your shaming tactics have proven to be impotent and that is frustrating you.

People are usually aware when one is concerned and when one is feigning concern.

Hyperbolic mischaracterizations are a red flag for someone feigning concern.

"OMG! USA puts illegal aliens in concentration camps!

I mean Death Camps.

No, I Mean super dooper death camps from outer space!
"

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0

Last edited by kmortis; 23rd September 2019 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:07 PM   #137
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The FBI smashed the Klan and other right-wing extremists by infiltrating them.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:11 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's a little precious that you still can't figure out that we are basically on the same side.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No, you're not. It doesn't matter which "side" you think you're on to these people. All they care about is stupid shaming tactics to try to manipulate your behavior and gain social status. I guarantee you they don't care which "side" they think you're on, if they see an opportunity to shame you, they'll take it.
Told you
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If you want serious responses, you should try engaging in the discussion with a little less disingenuousness.

It’s pointless to explain quadratic equations to someone who denies the existence of math.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:58 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What kind of mindless word salad was that lawyer speaking?
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps Baylor understands... and he can translate for us.
Easy. The video was deceptively edited. People calling themselves skeptics are unable to notice blatant acts of deception.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:06 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Easy. The video was deceptively edited. People calling themselves skeptics are unable to notice blatant acts of deception.
This was a public hearing, so unless they also edited the participants' brains ...
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:46 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The video was deceptively edited.
Evidence?

Where's the unedited version, and what were the points of deception?
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:56 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This was a public hearing, so unless they also edited the participants' brains ...
Holographic deepfake, obviously. Like the 9/11 planes.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:39 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Your shaming tactics have proven to be impotent and that is frustrating you.

Is that how you feel when people don't take your posts about childless European bugmen seriously?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:48 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post

It's mushroom season over here, so I hope that the filter doesn't affect those who are trying to distinguish between the toxic and the edible ones online!
Stormy Daniels Identifies Trump’s Penis From Mushroom Lineup on ‘Kimmel’ (Rolling Stone, Oct. 3, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 14th September 2019 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 14th September 2019, 03:55 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Insightful. So what should be done?

If it wasn't properly planned, I guess that the best solution is to ignore it, isn't it?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th September 2019, 04:10 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Evidence?

Where's the unedited version, and what were the points of deception?
Here's an audio recording of the full exchange if anyone cares. The material from the clip starts at around 24:00. There's no such deceptive editing; Baylor, per his usual standard, is flat out lying without having investigated the matter the slightest little bit.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 14th September 2019 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:19 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Indeed.

2) monitor law enforcement - and when you find anyone associated spewing racism, they aren't allowed to work in any job related to the law any more. This, of course, should be part of a larger police/law enforcement effort, but should extend to prosecutors and judges as well.

3) Shut down/block sites like 8chan as they show up, and insist that sites like Youtube and Twitter do better at filtering things (here's a story of a woman that created a 95% accurate dick pic filter, in a week. Facebook can't figure this out, with their wealth?).

And figure out what a hate group is, for pity's sake! (Yes, this part is a major part of the problem, as we've seen repeatedly with the reactions random groups of nonwhite people [CARAVANS! BLM are terrorists!] compared to overtly violent groups like the Proud Boys or militia groups.)
I think something that's really key to making any kind of online effort work is also going after the groups that produce and spread white supremacist content. Something a lot of people miss is that it doesn't come from a vacuum, not even on places like 4chan; most mainstream media outlets I see talking about white supremacy on 4chan seem to think that ideology is inherent to unregulated speech, but that's not really the case. I used 4chan before it got explicitly racist, and you'd see people bandying about racial slurs for shock value, but anything overtly political was generally discouraged. Then Stormfront launched a coordinated campaign to make the place a haven for Nazis and to indoctrinate the young people that used the site. For some reason, it's hard to find good sources about this, but it was relatively common knowledge on 4chan at the time (there were even memos from Stormfront circulating around to try to warn people and stop it), but it was so pervasive, the Nazis won out. The alt-right loves hiding behind humor, and it's a key part of how they spread online.

Without going after the people that create and spread that content in the first place, they'll always find a way and place to get their message out. I don't even think there necessarily need to be more restrictions on speech to target them, either, just more enforcement of laws that already exist. Think of recent spike in teenagers being arrested for making mass shooting threats online; it's not happening more, it's just that law enforcement is taking it more seriously. The Nazis need to know that "humor" isn't a get out of jail free card; saying you want to gas the Jews, beat a Dylan Roof's score, and "race war now" is violent hate speech. I do think getting better filters is a way to stop of spread racial psuedoscience; several sites have implemented such measures to curb anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy theorists, so there's no reason not to target the "race realists," too.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:13 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Your shaming tactics have proven to be impotent and that is frustrating you.

People are usually aware when one is concerned and when one is feigning concern.

Hyperbolic mischaracterizations are a red flag for someone feigning concern.

"OMG! USA puts illegal aliens in concentration camps!

I mean Death Camps.

No, I Mean super dooper death camps from outer space!
"

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0
Your allegation is that I’m trying to shame you for not caring about something that I also don’t care about.

And this somehow makes sense to you.

Last edited by kmortis; 23rd September 2019 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:40 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I used 4chan before it got explicitly racist, and you'd see people bandying about racial slurs for shock value, but anything overtly political was generally discouraged.

Yeah, I was around back then, and remember all of that. It wasn't really until the last three or four years that the white supremacist /pol/ crowd really turned it into the mess it is now.

Quote:
Without going after the people that create and spread that content in the first place, they'll always find a way and place to get their message out.

And that's the problem. Deplatforming helps, of course, but as long as the message itself is not targeted directly, it's not going to go away.

Quote:
I don't even think there necessarily need to be more restrictions on speech to target them, either, just more enforcement of laws that already exist.

After 9/11 there was a huge push to crack down on online recruitment and Fundamentalist Islamic incitement to violence. After Columbine, there was a huge crackdown on kids making threats of violence in schools and on social media platforms. Why hasn't there been a similar crackdown on similar white supremacist threats of violence?

Quote:
I do think getting better filters is a way to stop of spread racial psuedoscience; several sites have implemented such measures to curb anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy theorists, so there's no reason not to target the "race realists," too.

To answer my question above, it could easily happen; but the problem is that unlike violent Islamic Fundamentalism and sociopathic teens, white supremacists have a lot of sympathizers in government and the megacorps that run social media platforms. We've seen far too many examples of this, all the way up to the highest office in the land. That's the only thing from preventing the problem from being taken as seriously as it is.
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Old 15th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
If you want serious responses, you should try engaging in the discussion with a little less disingenuousness.

Itís pointless to explain quadratic equations to someone who denies the existence of math.
As always, thanks. Good talk.

Does anyone out there have any practical thoughts on what should be done, and how? Deplatforming sounds good in the abstract, but who makes the decision? Do we mean literally denying these clowns a place to speak publicly? How do we accomplish that?
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Old 16th September 2019, 01:05 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As always, thanks. Good talk.

Does anyone out there have any practical thoughts on what should be done, and how? Deplatforming sounds good in the abstract, but who makes the decision? Do we mean literally denying these clowns a place to speak publicly? How do we accomplish that?
You didn't read any of the posts following the one you quoted, did you?
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:31 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You didn't read any of the posts following the one you quoted, did you?
Yes. Yes I did. Started vague, quickly got quiet.

What laws regarding violent hate speech are not being adequately enforced, for example? How do we shut down an 8chan, without a history altering SCOTUS ruling? Who is going to be the arbiter of propriety, and by what standard?
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:36 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Indeed.

2) monitor law enforcement - and when you find anyone associated spewing racism, they aren't allowed to work in any job related to the law any more. This, of course, should be part of a larger police/law enforcement effort, but should extend to prosecutors and judges as well.
That is crazy, you can't restrict a police officers job for mere political opinions like all blacks need to be driven from the country or killed.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:37 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How do we shut down an 8chan, without a history altering SCOTUS ruling?
DDoS?
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:48 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
DDoS?
Always fun. I think ultimately the power rests with people, not law enforcement. And it should.

One good legal approach would be to broaden the concept of fighting words and provocation. If we treat violent hate speech as a form of assault, it opens a lot of doors for direct action.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The FBI smashed the Klan and other right-wing extremists by infiltrating them.
ANd now they are dealing with the FBI being infiltrated by the fascists and they are reluctant to go after them because of ties to the republican party.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:51 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. Yes I did. Started vague, quickly got quiet.

What laws regarding violent hate speech are not being adequately enforced, for example? How do we shut down an 8chan, without a history altering SCOTUS ruling? Who is going to be the arbiter of propriety, and by what standard?
We talking just US laws now? Because I'm better at the myriad Swedish laws broken by that site.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:58 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
One good legal approach would be to broaden the concept of fighting words and provocation.
No, that would be a terrible approach, because they'll simply use it against you.

Quote:
If we treat violent hate speech as a form of assault, it opens a lot of doors for direct action.
Yes it does:
"Down with the bourgeoisie!"... *locked up in jail for 'fighting words'*
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:03 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, that would be a terrible approach, because they'll simply use it against you.



Yes it does:
"Down with the bourgeoisie!"... *locked up in jail for 'fighting words'*
Not locked up for using them: used as a self-defense claim.

'The Jews will not replace us!'
'Your honor, I was defending myself against a threat of violence'.
'Acquitted'.
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Old 16th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
ANd now they are dealing with the FBI being infiltrated by the fascists and they are reluctant to go after them because of ties to the republican party.
Sad but true.
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