Vaping issues.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by cullennz

You might want to tone down what you accused me of doing and stop putting words in my posts given I said "here was me thinking" and "personally" is suddenly me stating facts.

Obviously you were stating your opinion. I said so. I also said, IMO, you don't understand what you are talking about.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Senex

sixth, no conclusions can be drawn. [YET]

ftfy - It's one of the things I've been saying.

Originally Posted by Senex

seventh, you're interesting.

Thank you, I think.

[Egg]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

...

But all this whataboutism is a fail. See why in my post #144 above. You are conflating an acute epidemic with any and all forms of a dangerous product.
...

Allegories, precedents and seeking consistency in law are not whataboutism.

I'm not sure why you're linking the sickness/deaths with vaping and vaping research while you said yourself "it is unlikely it's going to be something that has been in vaping products for years". That's kind of the point here - these recent deaths are concerning - and that's what we're waiting for more evidence for. Why would we ban something that hasn't generally been making people ill when in all likelihood it's something being added that is making people ill?

So, for example, when Samsung phone batteries started catching fire, there wasn't a call to ban all phone sales and tell everyone to immediately stop using their phones. Only the ones with the problem were withdrawn from market.

I'm concerned about people lumping these problems in with general vaping when the evidence for that has not been established. Especially when prohibition in the case of something addictive is actually likely to see people turning to alternatives that we know are less safe.

[Egg]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I've just done a quick literature review which I'm not going to do the whole findings and sources, too much work. So take these things I found as you wish, I don't care. And anyone that wants to do their own research that is fantastic. Please post what you find too. I looked through scientific papers via pubmed.gov and the Guardian had a good article.

First, vaping has not yet taken off outside of the US. That explains why we might not be seeing deaths and illness outside the US.

Second, the only research so far that isn't funded by the tobacco companies fails to show vaping helps people quit smoking. Safety studies are lacking. And the chemicals in the vaping liquids combine into new compounds after manufacture.

Third, the tobacco companies have fairly recently upped their sales and promotion of vaping products.

Fourth, the tobacco companies are putting out research claiming all the benefits of vaping and promoting it on social media sites aimed at the youth market.

Fifth, sales of vaping products and the numbers of teens using them has skyrocketed in the last year.

USA does have by far the biggest market, but it's not true to say it hasn't taken off elsewhere. The overall market for the rest of the world is larger.

Tobacco companies are relatively new to the market - they were fighting against it before. The market is still largely dominated by many smaller, independent companies - it's expected that what we'll see from the tobacco companies is support for regulation/legislation that favours the big companies and makes it hard for the smaller ones to compete.

On the other hand, there are pharmaceutical companies with big profits in cessation products who are fighting back with their own research papers - so one has to be careful of biases from all sides in some of the literature out there.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

ftfy - It's one of the things I've been saying.

Thank you, I think.

hehehe...

I've always found you thoughtful and knowledgeable and fun.

That's not to say you aren't being a pawn of Donald Trump today. You have to work on this. He's a bad man. Follow my advice

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Senex

hehehe...

I've always found you thoughtful and knowledgeable and fun.

That's not to say you aren't being a pawn of Donald Trump today. You have to work on this. He's a bad man. Follow my advice

A Trump pawn? That's rich.

I am being a good public health contributor. I don't care what Trump does on this one.

Makes you wonder though, if they caught Baron vaping. He's about the right age. Hard to get away with when the secret service follows you around. I can't remember what the Bush twins said they did to get away with stuff.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Egg

USA does have by far the biggest market, but it's not true to say it hasn't taken off elsewhere. The overall market for the rest of the world is larger.

Larger but dispersed, cases are usually compared to the denominator.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Egg

Allegories, precedents and seeking consistency in law are not whataboutism.

But you are comparing something new and acute to something old and chronic.

Quote:

I'm not sure why you're linking the sickness/deaths with vaping and vaping research while you said yourself "it is unlikely it's going to be something that has been in vaping products for years". That's kind of the point here - these recent deaths are concerning - and that's what we're waiting for more evidence for. Why would we ban something that hasn't generally been making people ill when in all likelihood it's something being added that is making people ill?

So, for example, when Samsung phone batteries started catching fire, there wasn't a call to ban all phone sales and tell everyone to immediately stop using their phones. Only the ones with the problem were withdrawn from market.

I'm concerned about people lumping these problems in with general vaping when the evidence for that has not been established. Especially when prohibition in the case of something addictive is actually likely to see people turning to alternatives that we know are less safe.

There's so much defensiveness in this thread about losing vaping access or it seems like it.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

There's so much defensiveness in this thread about losing vaping access or it seems like it.

Of course there is. Many of us are lifelong nicotine addicts, and know full well we'll be smoking again before the ink is dry on legislation to take vaping away from us.

It is the ONLY thing that has helped me stop smoking. I may eventually quit vaping, but if they outlaw it I'll go right back to smoking -just as many others here probably will.

So what's it gonna be: vaping, or smoking?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by DragonLady

Of course there is. Many of us are lifelong nicotine addicts, and know full well we'll be smoking again before the ink is dry on legislation to take vaping away from us.

It is the ONLY thing that has helped me stop smoking. I may eventually quit vaping, but if they outlaw it I'll go right back to smoking -just as many others here probably will.

So what's it gonna be: vaping, or smoking?

I'm an ex-smoker just so it's clear.

I never argue with success even if the research is not revealing vaping is helping people quit smoking. But that's the thing, quitting is a different outcome measure than replacing. Researchers should be looking at both outcomes.

I'm not really talking about that issue. I'm concerned with tobacco companies using vaping to addict a new generation of smokers just when we'd made so much progress.

And I'm concerned about this new development.

No one should mistake those concerns of mine with some prudish campaign to end vaping.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

I'm not really talking about that issue. I'm concerned with Tobacco companies using vaping to addict a new generation of smokers just when we'd made so much progress.

I understand that. I believe that no one who isn't a smoker should take up vaping...but if vaping is made illegal, I think even more people will do it just to be defiant. I think most smokers who started smoking young did so entirely because they knew adults didn't approve. It just isn't "cool" if it's not a bit naughty, and the health risks are perceived as being too far down the road to be anything to worry about.

It doesn't change the fact that more regulations that make vaping more difficult will simply result in more smokers. I, for one, am not going to try again with other methods that didn't work. The patches and gum were expensive, nasty, and just made me feel anxious and miserable. Quitting cold turkey 30 years ago left me with issues I still suffer from to this day.

Whatever the official evidence shows, my own personal experience puts me firmly in the "vaping has helped me" camp. I know I've only switched habits, but it's a still a huge step, and considering the consequences of smoking I'm still convinced it's a step in the right direction.

It's also my understanding some state governments have a vested interest in keeping people smoking because they've borrowed money against the funds they received in the settlements against the tobacco companies. I do notice that every slam against it makes it into print, but almost none of the success stories are ever mentioned.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by DragonLady

....

It's also my understanding some state governments have a vested interest in keeping people smoking because they've borrowed money against the funds they received in the settlements against the tobacco companies..

How does this work?

I don't think banning all vaping is being proposed, Trump's insanity notwithstanding.

[DragonLady]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

How does this work?

I don't think banning all vaping is being proposed, Trump's insanity notwithstanding.

I don't remember...I read about it, and thought "Uh-huh, if this is true it explains a LOT" but I'll have to try to find it again to link to it.

ETA: here's one article about it, although I don't see anything about vaping on a first glance:

Quote:

Under the agreement, the tobacco companies would make payments, forever, to state governments. These would cover the costs of smoking-related illnesses. The amount paid by the tobacco companies would directly correlate to the number of cigarettes sold—the more cigarettes sold, the more money the states would get.

Quote:

The state issues bonds backed up by the promise of future payments

https://www.cagw.org/thewastewatcher...greement-money

Stinks like foster care.... Essentially they've borrowed against the payments, so if the number of people buying cigarettes drops they won't have the revenues to repay the loans and the interest on those loans. So they have a vested interest in keeping people smoking -the amount they're paying out for healthcare for them is far, far less than the amounts they're collecting, so it's a sound financial decision even if the smokers all suffer horrific consequences.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I don't know what those two products are. Are you referring to THC and nicotine? Or something else?

He did spell that out in an earlier post: vegetable glycerine and propylene glycol. Those are the main ingredients by volume in retail vape juice. On top of that base is added nicotine and flavorings. The flavorings (I've heard) are food-grade and are not toxic as food, but I'm pretty sure the safety of inhaling those ingredients hasn't been studied much. People have been inhaling nicotine for ages, so that part we have info on.

Since the outbreak is recent, many longtime adult vapers, who don't buy tampered-with nicotine pods laced with Vitamin E and THC, are not considering themselves to be in an *additional* danger, and there's a good chance they are right.

Vaping made me give up cigarettes in one day. I started with products that tobacco companies were involved in, but switched that away to a vaping device and juices made with FDA-approved ingredients. I seriously doubt that this is anywhere near as harmful as smoking cigarettes, though I'm going on anecdotal evidence - mostly how my lungs feel, oxygen saturation etc. Many doctors have opined that it is much less dangerous than smoking, but I don't think that's been proven. Also I'm unaware of studies showing that ingredients that are safe when eaten are also safe when inhaled.

My pattern hasn't changed in years (ETA: Except cutting the nicotine contact to 6 mg from 24 mg) so I tend to think that the outbreak is traceable to some recent trend in usage that probably does not apply to vapers with stable habits of several years.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I never argue with success even if the research is not revealing vaping is helping people quit smoking.

You keep making this claim but you don't make it clear whether you mean that people are vaping and still smoking or if they are vaping instead of smoking (and don't stop vaping).

This is slightly disingenuous. If the former proves to be demonstrably false you can always claim afterwards that you meant the latter.

[Sceptic-PK]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I don't know what those two products are. Are you referring to THC and nicotine? Or something else?

It's unlikely either of those by themselves are going to turn out to be the problem, and it is unlikely it's going to be something that has been in vaping products for years. This appears to be a recent development.

Sorry, I referenced them in a previous post. Vegetable glycerine (VG) and propylene glycol (PG). They are the two ingredients that simulate smoking and one or both are included in 99% of vaping products. If we want to understand the dangers of vaping they should absolutely be the first cabs off the rank. However, I definitely agree with your suggestion that they're not responsible for the recent deaths, but I'd still like to know more about the risks.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Senex

Make the decision for yourself. This is government overreach.

Like with all medication as well. Creating the FDA after little things like the elixir Sulfanilamide "scandal" was crazy overreach. If people are dumb enough to not check the ingredients of the medicine they are prescribed to see if they are poisonous they deserve what they get.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Senex

Is it OK to have a beer?

If you sell beer you are regulated by the FDA, ATF and local health inspectors, so logically all those should be present in the vaping industry as well.

[Darat]

Relevant to this thread

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-mint-menthol/

Apparently carcinogenic concerns about the additives used to create menthol and peppermint vaping fluids.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by cullennz

Even if a few do, which I doubt, if it is less then who cares?

I care. More people should die. There's too many of us already.

But not me. You lot first. I have stuff to do!

Quote:

Less people died

Fewer.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The tobacco companies heavily invested in vaping products would have you believe so.

Take proclamations that it's only the flavored stuff with a grain of salt. Tobacco companies were the first Merchants of Doubt, providing supposed scientific studies that showed second hand smoke was harmless.

They tried to show that first hand smoke was harmless, too.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale

It seems to me to be a strange form of reflexive puritanism that people see other people doing something that they don't do, and are determined to jump all over it and make they stop doing the thing. Lord forbid anyone should enjoy anything.

Yeah, because second hand smoke is completely harmless and having to burden the medical system with your triple bypass is just fine.

Your behaviour is not just about you. When it is, do whatever you want. When it affects me, I'll have a word or two to say about it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You keep making this claim but you don't make it clear whether you mean that people are vaping and still smoking or if they are vaping instead of smoking (and don't stop vaping).

This is slightly disingenuous. If the former proves to be demonstrably false you can always claim afterwards that you meant the latter.

Maybe you're confused.

Research failed to demonstrate there was any benefit to using vaping to quit smoking.

If someone tells me they used vaping to quit smoking I am not going to argue with that. A few people have.

However most of the medical research so far can be summarized here:

Johns Hopkins: 5 Vaping Facts You Need to Know

Quote:

3: Electronic Cigarettes Are Just as Addictive as Traditional Ones....

4: Electronic Cigarettes Aren’t the Best Smoking Cessation Tool....

5: A New Generation Is Getting Hooked on Nicotine....

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Maybe you're confused.

And you are not clearing up the confusion. Which is your claim? (select 1 or 2):

1. Vapers continue to smoke cigarettes.
2. Vapers don't smoke cigarettes anymore but don't quit vaping.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by psionl0

And you are not clearing up the confusion. Which is your claim? (select 1 or 2):

1. Vapers continue to smoke cigarettes.
2. Vapers don't smoke cigarettes anymore but don't quit vaping.

Any reason both can't be true?

But I did get the impression that #1, or #3, they simply kept smoking were by far more common.

Naturally, with more research/data, the findings might differ.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Any reason both can't be true?

One would have to be more predominant than the other.

But even if it was exactly 50-50, that would still be a good result. I don't have any data on how this compares to other forms of NRT but I am willing to guess that vaping compares favourably.

[DragonLady]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Any reason both can't be true?

But I did get the impression that #1, or #3, they simply kept smoking were by far more common.

Naturally, with more research/data, the findings might differ.

The first time I tried vaping, I continued to smoke cigarettes, too. But, I did smoke fewer of them. Further, I did learn that vaping worked for me...although it was another three years, I think, before I took the plunge to try again with better equipment and a better plan.

The second attempt worked. By "worked" I mean I took the new setup out of the box, charged the batteries, filled the tank...and have not smoked another cigarette since. I gave a full pack to my DH to dispose of, and have not had a single setback.

I'm not surprised if it takes a trial run -or several- to completely switch over. Cigarettes are extremely addictive, and the fear of giving them up is enough to cause many (most?) people to keep at least one around in case of emergency. That had been part of my plan, but as it happened it simply wasn't necessary.

I think that those who keep vaping will be able to quit smoking, even if it takes a few tries or a few months. I also think everyone who has switched to vaping is at a huge risk of returning to cigarettes if vaping supplies become harder to obtain.

[Egg]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Any reason both can't be true?

But I did get the impression that #1, or #3, they simply kept smoking were by far more common.

Naturally, with more research/data, the findings might differ.

Did you have a link for this research?

Big tobacco is pretty much in a win-win situation here - I'm not convinced that they're the ones skewing research here - and if they are, they're certainly not the only ones.

Here's a study giving a different perspective: link

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by psionl0

One would have to be more predominant than the other.

But even if it was exactly 50-50, that would still be a good result. I don't have any data on how this compares to other forms of NRT but I am willing to guess that vaping compares favourably.

So you ignored my answer except for this little bit?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Egg

Did you have a link for this research?

Big tobacco is pretty much in a win-win situation here - I'm not convinced that they're the ones skewing research here - and if they are, they're certainly not the only ones.

Here's a study giving a different perspective: link

And look what I found about your source:

Source Watch: Competitive Enterprise Institute

Quote:

The Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) is a advocacy group based in Washington DC with long ties to tobacco disinformation campaigns and more recently to climate change denial. It calls itself "a non-profit, non-partisan research and advocacy institute dedicated to the principles of free enterprise and limited government. We believe that individuals are best helped not by government intervention, but by making their own choices in a free marketplace."[1] The Competitive Enterprise Institute is an "associate" member of the State Policy Network, a web of right-wing "think tanks" in every state across the country.[2]

Until August 2007 CEI's website CEI stated that it served "as both a think tank—creating intellectual ammunition to support free markets—and an advocacy organization—putting that ammunition to use in persuasive ways."[3]

It postures as an advocate of "sound science" in the development of public policy. However, CEI projects dispute the overwhelming scientific evidence that human induced greenhouse gas emissions are driving climate change. They have a program for "challenging government regulations", push property rights as a solution to environment problems, opposed US vehicle fuel efficiency standards, and spin for the drug industry.

Many of its claims have been debunked. Here are a few examples related to climate change:

Annenberg Political Fact Check, "Scientist to CEI: You Used My Research To "Confuse and Mislead," May 26, 2006.
"Thank you for emitting", Real Climate, May 18, 2006
News Bureau, University of Missouri-Columbia, "MU Professor Refutes National Television Ads Downplaying Global Warming: Engineering Professor Curt Davis says TV Spots are Misrepresenting His Research," May 19, 2006.

I am so not surprised.

I can't tell from your post if you knew this about your source.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So you ignored my answer except for this little bit?

Had you dealt with "this little bit" the first time, we could have moved on.

Your "impression" of an unsourced report doesn't do anything to dispel "this little bit".

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's ridiculous, psion10. You ignored my answer then claimed I didn't post an answer.

[Sceptic-PK]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

However most of the medical research so far can be summarized here:

Quote:

" 3: Electronic Cigarettes Are Just as Addictive as Traditional Ones...."

What’s worse, says Blaha, many e-cigarette users get even more nicotine than they would from a tobacco product — you can buy extra-strength cartridges, which have a higher concentration of nicotine, or you can increase the e-cigarette’s voltage to get a greater hit of the substance.

I accept that just about anything can be addictive but this statement is a gross generalisation given there are just so many different combinations possible.

Quote:

Because e-cigarettes create a vapor rather than produce a tobacco smoke, they generally deliver less nicotine to users than cigarettes do...

https://www.livescience.com/54754-wh...your-body.html

It was blatantly obvious to me that 8mg cigarettes delivered more nicotine than 12mg vape juice. I used to have to get that fix at least every 45 minutes but now if I don't vape for 8 hours (like when travelling by plane) I don't even notice. Friends of mine who vape say the same- the cravings just aren't like they used to be. I accept I'm still an addict, but that's primarily because I love it rather than being due to the physical discomfort of withdrawal like it used to be.

[DragonLady]

Quote:

It was blatantly obvious to me that 8mg cigarettes delivered more nicotine than 12mg vape juice. I used to have to get that fix at least every 45 minutes but now if I don't vape for 8 hours (like when travelling by plane) I don't even notice. Friends of mine who vape say the same- the cravings just aren't like they used to be. I accept I'm still an addict, but that's primarily because I love it rather than being due to the physical discomfort of withdrawal like it used to be.

That's similar to my own experience. I don't panic at the thought of being unable to vape for a few hours, and I've dropped to nicotine dosage down to 3%. I do find myself slowly upping the wattage, though.

When I switched, part of the plan was a promise to myself that I was switching, not quitting, and that I would only quit vaping if I wanted to -I wouldn't allow myself to feel guilty over it or allow anyone to bully me about it. I am still addicted; but I part of the addiction is the simple fact I love vaping as much -maybe more- than I loved smoking. Everyone has a pet vice, and this is mine.

[Sceptic-PK]

Originally Posted by DragonLady

That's similar to my own experience. I don't panic at the thought of being unable to vape for a few hours, and I've dropped to nicotine dosage down to 3%. I do find myself slowly upping the wattage, though.

Absolutely. If someone wants to they can easily (from a practical standpoint) reduce their nicotine concentration over time. It just means changing the ratios. The only reason I'm still using nicotine is because in the year I spent finding the perfect setup I found that nicotine strength was the biggest factor in the throat hit (which prior to quitting smoking I didn't realise I needed). If I was willing to spend more time I'm sure I could find a mix that enabled me to eliminate it completely.

[Sceptic-PK]

Haha, what a joke. Can our cousins across the Pacific explain why menthol is excluded? That seems incredibly/oddly specific (especially given recent reports of one particular carcinogen's regular appearance in mint-flavoured juice).

Quote:

New York state Health Commissioner Dr Howard Zucker is evaluating a proposal to extend the ban on flavoured e-cigarettes to cover menthol, which was excluded from the prohibition approved on Tuesday, Cuomo's office said.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...18-p52skf.html

Did laugh at the commentary, though.

Quote:

Michael Frennier, president of the New York State Vapor Association, criticised the New York ban, saying the recent spike in deadly lung illnesses was tied to illicit vaping of the marijuana component THC, not use of flavoured nicotine.

"It's kind of like having a mayonnaise outbreak of E.coli and the politicians come forth and they say 'We're going to fix this to protect the people of our state and we're going to ban peanut butter tomorrow morning,'" Frennier said.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

Haha, what a joke. Can our cousins across the Pacific explain why menthol is excluded? That seems incredibly/oddly specific (especially given recent reports of one particular carcinogen's regular appearance in mint-flavoured juice).



https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...18-p52skf.html

Did laugh at the commentary, though.

That's an odd one, because we were cautioning against heavy menthol use more than three years ago.
I will admit the online community is very active and aware of concerns as they come up... and without reading the boards one could easily be an uninformed and possibly unsafe vaper. There are a good dozen or more aspects newbs are constantly being advised about. If only they'd read the eleventyseven prior replies to the exact question they post again anyway.

But they can also be as nuttily strident as any fandom... I rarely participate anymore.

[Butter!]

Okay so, I'm just going to ask this straight-up. Should I stop right now forever?

I use the Vuse Alto ("original" flavor) sometimes. Not heavily, and I'd had plans to cut it out entirely before I even heard news of this epidemic. I've decreased my use A LOT. But I do like having the thing around. The ritual of hitting it soothes me whenever I'm having anxiety or studying, or having anxiety about studying. Much like cigarettes used to do before I quit them. Plus, my SO has a friend who works for Reynold's - who manufactures Vuse - and he gives us these coupons all the time, so I never pay more than 3-5 dollars for a pack of 2 pods! Which last me forever! I thought I'd found the holy grail. I knew it was all too good to be true.

Anyway, over the last week I have been having really bad anxiety about the vaping. Several times, I've convinced myself that I can't breathe deeply enough and basically panicked. I also have a weird pain in my back. I can't concentrate when I'm studying or working, and I've been having trouble sleeping out of fears about this. As a result of the anxiety getting so bad, I haven't vaped at all for like 2 and a half days. The anxiety isn't any better, but I am more irritable than I expected. I think it's because I know I can't have any; that makes me crave it more.

I know people are just going to say, "obviously you should stop right now,it might be bad, it's making you crazy, and you're clearly addicted." Yes, that is true. But what I'm asking is, should I literally never hit it again because of the danger? I have a pod and a half left - should I throw them out, or can I use them to taper a little and then never buy any again? Those are my two options now. What do you guys think I should do?

Please don't be mean. If you think my post is stupid, just ignore it. I'm all out of sorts.


ETA - I realize I'm being a terrible skeptic right now, but I'm honest to god too anxious to research this. I tried, and the breathing thing happened again while I was scrolling through Google hits. Then I started worrying about other health stuff too.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by isissxn

Okay so, I'm just going to ask this straight-up. Should I stop right now forever?

I use the Vuse Alto ("original" flavor) sometimes. Not heavily, and I'd had plans to cut it out entirely before I even heard news of this epidemic. I've decreased my use A LOT. But I do like having the thing around. The ritual of hitting it soothes me whenever I'm having anxiety or studying, or having anxiety about studying. Much like cigarettes used to do before I quit them. Plus, my SO has a friend who works for Reynold's - who manufactures Vuse - and he gives us these coupons all the time, so I never pay more than 3-5 dollars for a pack of 2 pods! Which last me forever! I thought I'd found the holy grail. I knew it was all too good to be true.

Anyway, over the last week I have been having really bad anxiety about the vaping. Several times, I've convinced myself that I can't breathe deeply enough and basically panicked. I also have a weird pain in my back. I can't concentrate when I'm studying or working, and I've been having trouble sleeping out of fears about this. As a result of the anxiety getting so bad, I haven't vaped at all for like 2 and a half days. The anxiety isn't any better, but I am more irritable than I expected. I think it's because I know I can't have any; that makes me crave it more.

I know people are just going to say, "obviously you should stop right now,it might be bad, it's making you crazy, and you're clearly addicted." Yes, that is true. But what I'm asking is, should I literally never hit it again because of the danger? I have a pod and a half left - should I throw them out, or can I use them to taper a little and then never buy any again? Those are my two options now. What do you guys think I should do?

Please don't be mean. If you think my post is stupid, just ignore it. I'm all out of sorts.

Is it possible to just set it aside for a bit and see how things shake out? Information is flying fast and furious right now, but give it some time and they may know more about this sudden spike in deaths. Maybe a bit more time will let you know more about long term impacts.

I remember many years ago when dog food out of china was contaminated and we switched foods to Alpo because no Alpo was on the list. Alpo was added three weeks and several hundreds of dollars in vet bills later. You have the option of just not eating dog food until more info comes out. Don't have to quit entirely, just set it aside.

[Butter!]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Is it possible to just set it aside for a bit and see how things shake out? Information is flying fast and furious right now, but give it some time and they may know more about this sudden spike in deaths. Maybe a bit more time will let you know more about long term impacts.

I remember many years ago when dog food out of china was contaminated and we switched foods to Alpo because no Alpo was on the list. Alpo was added three weeks and several hundreds of dollars in vet bills later. You have the option of just not eating dog food until more info comes out. Don't have to quit entirely, just set it aside.

That's what I've pretty much done, so I'll just stick with that.

Do you think there's any chance my "symptoms" are real, or are they just my anxiety? I don't want to go to the doctor if I don't have to, because I have no insurance and I'd have to call off something to do it.

[Butter!]

I don't want to look up symptoms of vape disease because I'll just start convincing myself I have them, whether I really do or not. That's what always happens. I don't have time for it. I'm working on a massive project and these small panic attacks are interfering badly.