ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th August 2018, 02:04 AM   #881
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,108
A former UK politician called Ed Balls has a TV show on the go. In the episode I just saw, he spoke to a man in Louisiana who had shot his neighbour. He was not charged because it was considered self defence. It happened during an argument over $100 and the sale of a boat.

The normality and blasť attitude was striking.

Because it is assumed others will be armed, as there are so many guns, any self defence leaps to use of deadly force bypassing any other method. Why wait to see if the other person is armed? Just shot them.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 02:55 AM   #882
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,232
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A former UK politician called Ed Balls has a TV show on the go. In the episode I just saw, he spoke to a man in Louisiana who had shot his neighbour. He was not charged because it was considered self defence. It happened during an argument over $100 and the sale of a boat.

The normality and blasť attitude was striking.

Because it is assumed others will be armed, as there are so many guns, any self defence leaps to use of deadly force bypassing any other method. Why wait to see if the other person is armed? Just shot them.
Exactly here we have an armed man threatening your girlfriend, makes sense to have just shot him instead of the more risky pushing him. Nice simple and legal.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 03:29 AM   #883
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 8,739
Question

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A former UK politician called Ed Balls has a TV show on the go. In the episode I just saw, he spoke to a man in Louisiana who had shot his neighbour. He was not charged because it was considered self defence. It happened during an argument over $100 and the sale of a boat.

The normality and blasť attitude was striking.

Because it is assumed others will be armed, as there are so many guns, any self defence leaps to use of deadly force bypassing any other method. Why wait to see if the other person is armed? Just shot them.
Violence is deeply ingrained in the (statistically third-world) culture. Murder rates per capita:
1 Brazil 40,974 2010
2 India 40,752 2009
3 Mexico 25,757 2010
4 Ethiopia 20,239 2008
5 Indonesia 18,963 2008
6 Nigeria 18,422 2008
7 South Africa 15,940 2010
8 Colombia 15,459 2010
9 Russia 14,574 2010
10 Pakistan 13,860 2011
11 Democratic Republic of the Congo 13,558 2008
12 China 13,410 2010
13 Venezuela 13,080 2010
14 United States 12,996 2010
15 Uganda 11,373 2008
16 Cote d'Ivoire 10,801 2008
17 Tanzania 10,357 2008
18 Sudan 10,028 2008
19 Kenya 7,733 2008
20 Honduras 7,104 2011
21 Guatemala 5,681 2011
22 Malawi 5,039 2008
23 Philippines 4,947 2009
24 Burma 4,800 2008
25 Zambia 4,710 2008
26 El Salvador 4,308 2011
27 Bangladesh 3,988 2010
28 Cameroon 3,700 2008
29 North Korea 3,658 2008
30 Ghana 3,646 2008

More than a few think if two men fight, God decides the winner. Except when they lose; then it's "rigged."
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time playing video games.
Summer Ongoing penance for overeating: His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 04:27 AM   #884
Shepherd
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 261
You seem to have quoted the "Totals" rather than the "Per Capita." The U.S. is listed 99th in the Per Capita.
Shepherd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 04:31 AM   #885
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,232
Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
You seem to have quoted the "Totals" rather than the "Per Capita." The U.S. is listed 99th in the Per Capita.
It is 99th in the per million people, in the per capita it is higher as he quoted. So I would not trust the source as it treats those as different. The link makes no sense in this regard.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 04:49 AM   #886
Shepherd
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 261
Though the table titled "Per Capita" should have probably said "Per Million People," the ranking for the actual Per Capita would still be the same.

Hlafordlaes quoted the "Totals" and not what was titled the "Per Capita." In other words, maybe you should pay more attention.

Last edited by Shepherd; 7th August 2018 at 04:54 AM.
Shepherd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2018, 09:03 AM   #887
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,486
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post

<snip for focus>

...I've made it clear in this thread that I don't have the intent or the desire to hurt anyone. On the other hand, I'm prepared to kill violent attackers, if it comes down to them, or me. You're free to characterize that any way you want.
Well, you have made it abundantly clear that you do have the intent to hurt or kill certain people, but that's beside the point. What I am asking, and you keep bobbing and weaving around, is do you concern yourself with self defense, or do you only concern yourself with legal shooting? They are not the same thing. Very different things, in fact. The simple litmus for that is to identify what provisions you make for self defense if you cannot reach your gun. If there are none at all, as you seem to imply, 'self defense' is a euphemism for your real interest.

Quote:
The killing was wrongful, but it was inevitably the result of a violent shove which was also wrongful, which was inevitably the result of Drejka confronting the victim's friend. I'm saying, specifically, if your first resort is violence in this state, then don't be surprised if violence is what you get in response, far more than what is justified in some cases. Drejka probably knew this when he got his weapons permit, yet decided to act the way he did anyway. McGlockton probably realized this the split second before he died.
That hilited, right there. You keep saying things like that ('Keep your hands to yourself and we won't shoot you. We like it that way'). It is nakedly menacing, although you pepper it up with generic qualifiers about self defense. That is why I keep asking you about actual self defense provisions, that you seem not to concern yourself with.

Quote:
As I stated before, my sympathy for McGlocton is mitigated by the fact that I saw what he did in that video. That doesn't change the fact that Drejka broke the law and should be prosecuted. We both agree that perpetrators of manslaughter need to be held accountable under the law. But what about the perpetrators of violent attacks that don't necessarily end this way? What if Drejka was unarmed, and was beaten severely? What if the encounter ended with the shove? Would that be ok too, or should McGlockton be held accountable by law?
Of course, anyone violating any law may have to face charges. But that is a strawman again; no one suggests that any criminal action should be excused willy-nilly. The distinction is whether or not you are even alive to face charges. Why do you keep strawmanning my position?

Quote:
If you're looking for sympathy from me for anyone in this case, from the parking violator to the committer of manslaughter, you won't find it. I hope Drejka is convicted of manslaughter or 2nd degree murder, and I hope people stop shoving people to the ground violently.
There's that menacing language again. Do you see that you are basically threatening that some gun owners will illegally execute? This is not the position of pure self defense, which I agree is everyone's right. Your subtext, intended or not, is extremely aggressive, and ideologically very close to Drejka's.

Quote:
The possibility that I won't be able to tactically defend myself in all situations has zero to do with whether lethal force is justified in some situations or not. I'm not sure why you're conflating these concepts.
Because you are strawmanning again. Sometimes lethal force is justified, no question. If your interest is honestly the protection of your own life, you would tactically need to prepare for those times when your gun was not available. That does not seem to concern you, so I can only conclude that you have no interest in defending your life in a dire situation. You only indicate interest in ending (or threatening to end) someone elses.

Quote:
If I am in a situation where I can't immediately draw my firearm, then I probably can't draw pepper spray either. What does this have to do with anything? If you want to call justified lethal self defense "make my day", then yes, I am advocating "make my day". If you don't agree with that, then we can agree to disagree.
Again, you keep relying on the pepper spray strawman. Since you have this intense desire to protect yourself, to the point of being willing to kill others (including perhaps unintended bystanders), what unarmed self defense techniques do you regularly practice? If none, how seriously can your claim of a desire to defend yourself be viewed?

Quote:
It would make sense to vacate the premises, in lieu of the protections granted by SYG laws. This takes nothing away from the potentiality of drunken brawlers to be lethal, but it seems likely that most drunks don't have lethal intent. On the other hand, being drunk isn't an excuse to bludgeon someone to death. If some would be drunken-brawler batters the wrong person and winds up dead, I will have about as much sympathy for him as I do McGlockton, which is, not much. Don't get drunk and batter people. It's simple. If you do, then accept the risk that you might get killed. You don't deserve any guarantees in life if you impair yourself and then go around committing violence. None.
The hilited is my line. Not all assaults are lethal. The staggering majority are not. But your self defense spectrum seems to include only one tactic: shoot to kill. And consequently, not really self defense.

Quote:
I already explained why I disregard it. I'll type it again, maybe you can read it this time. If I deploy pepper spray against someone with lethal intent and it fails, then I run the risk of dying. I'm not willing to take that risk.
Your firearm can fail or be unreachable, too, and by your own argument, you will also run the risk of dying, which risk you claim to be unwilling to take. So maybe you can read it this time: what is your plan for self defense, which you claim is so important, if you cannot reach your gun?

Quote:
That's irrelevant. I'm not interested in preventing shootings, but preventing crime, and most importantly, defending myself. Your statistics are unlikely to account for the myriad of factors accounting for crimes across different states.
Yeah, hard data is overrated. Sounds like you are familiar with what it shows, too.

Quote:
I don't know who the "MMD crowd" is. My advice would be to not attack them on the street or break into their homes. If and when they break the law, they should get prosecuted and receive justice just like any other criminal, which is what I'm advocating here for Drejka.
The MMD crowd are the Make My Day gun advocates. Zero interest in actual self defense but a boatload of interest in shooting someone if they think they can do so legally. Your arguments are the talking points for this position, even down to changing the subject and answering a different question when asked directly about your tactical preparations when your guns are not reachable.

BTW, I don't mean to sound so confrontational or accusatory. Your evasiveness to my simple, direct question is frustrating. If you have no interest in self defense without a gun, but a ton of interest in having multiple guns to shoot someone should the situation present itself, you can just say so. Perfectly legal. Nothing wrong with it.

I have raised three kids, and was on a volunteer rescue squad before I moved to a town with a professional team. I have spent a lot of my adult life trying to keep children and victims alive. This casual willingness to kill others is more than a little fascinating, so I hope you can excuse any abrasiveness on my part.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 02:07 AM   #888
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 8,739
Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
Though the table titled "Per Capita" should have probably said "Per Million People," the ranking for the actual Per Capita would still be the same.

Hlafordlaes quoted the "Totals" and not what was titled the "Per Capita." In other words, maybe you should pay more attention.
FTFM
95 Suriname 46.14 2009
96 Laos 45.45 2008
97 Yemen 44.54 2009
98 Turkmenistan 42.28 2006
99 United States 42.01 2010
100 Georgia 42 2010
101 Albania 40.32 2010
102 Solomon Islands 37.73 2008
103 Niger 37.45 2008
104 Sri Lanka 36.07 2010
105 Djibouti 35.8 2008
106 Montenegro 35.52 2009
107 India...

Same deal.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time playing video games.
Summer Ongoing penance for overeating: His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 02:14 AM   #889
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,108
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Violence is deeply ingrained in the (statistically third-world) culture. Murder rates per capita:
1 Brazil 40,974 2010
2 India 40,752 2009
3 Mexico 25,757 2010
4 Ethiopia 20,239 2008
5 Indonesia 18,963 2008
6 Nigeria 18,422 2008
7 South Africa 15,940 2010
8 Colombia 15,459 2010
9 Russia 14,574 2010
10 Pakistan 13,860 2011
11 Democratic Republic of the Congo 13,558 2008
12 China 13,410 2010
13 Venezuela 13,080 2010
14 United States 12,996 2010
15 Uganda 11,373 2008
16 Cote d'Ivoire 10,801 2008
17 Tanzania 10,357 2008
18 Sudan 10,028 2008
19 Kenya 7,733 2008
20 Honduras 7,104 2011
21 Guatemala 5,681 2011
22 Malawi 5,039 2008
23 Philippines 4,947 2009
24 Burma 4,800 2008
25 Zambia 4,710 2008
26 El Salvador 4,308 2011
27 Bangladesh 3,988 2010
28 Cameroon 3,700 2008
29 North Korea 3,658 2008
30 Ghana 3,646 2008

More than a few think if two men fight, God decides the winner. Except when they lose; then it's "rigged."
I see the UK comes in at 71st place (722 2009) and is second to the USA out of the most developed nations. Norway had 29 in 2010.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic

Last edited by Nessie; 8th August 2018 at 02:15 AM.
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 02:17 AM   #890
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,108
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
FTFM
95 Suriname 46.14 2009
96 Laos 45.45 2008
97 Yemen 44.54 2009
98 Turkmenistan 42.28 2006
99 United States 42.01 2010
100 Georgia 42 2010
101 Albania 40.32 2010
102 Solomon Islands 37.73 2008
103 Niger 37.45 2008
104 Sri Lanka 36.07 2010
105 Djibouti 35.8 2008
106 Montenegro 35.52 2009
107 India...

Same deal.
The UK is at at 157th with 11.68 and there are a number of most developed nations such as Canada with 16.23 that are higher.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 10:41 AM   #891
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
Originally Posted by Tippit
I am not certain, but I don't believe California, New York, New Jersey, or Illinois have castle doctrine laws. Much like the UK, the government protects the perpetrators in these states and not the victims. If you defend yourself against an intruder in your own home, you had better have strong evidence that your life was in danger or you face becoming the "perpetrator" in the eyes of the law.
Surprise to some but California does.. There are limits, of course. For instance you canít dump a magazine into your spouse because you heard a bump in the night or chase an intruder down the street and shoot him. Thereís no protection under Castle Doctrine unless itís an actual intruder inside your residence being dealt with. And according to legal minds Iíve spoken with, even if youíre 100% within your right, retain an attorney and prepare your defense. Itís California, after all.

Originally Posted by Thermal
There's that menacing language again. Do you see that you are basically threatening that some gun owners will illegally execute? This is not the position of pure self defense, which I agree is everyone's right. Your subtext, intended or not, is extremely aggressive, and ideologically very close to Drejka's.
Iím just curious - what is it you find menacing? His choice of words seems fairly matter-of-fact to me.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 11:16 AM   #892
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,469
There is going to be a rally/protest in Tallahassee (Florida's capital city) tomorrow.

Democrats in Florida congress have put forward legislation to stop Florida's SYG.

Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum (who is running for governor) has called on Gov. Rick Scott to declare an emergency and suspend the stateís Stand Your Ground law until the Legislature can provide clarity on how and when the law is applied.

It is still unknown when the State's Attorney is going to announce his decision on charging Drejka.

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/ne...see/925629002/

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/ne...law/866734002/
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 11:44 AM   #893
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,486
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Surprise to some but California does.. There are limits, of course. For instance you can’t dump a magazine into your spouse because you heard a bump in the night or chase an intruder down the street and shoot him. There’s no protection under Castle Doctrine unless it’s an actual intruder inside your residence being dealt with. And according to legal minds I’ve spoken with, even if you’re 100% within your right, retain an attorney and prepare your defense. It’s California, after all.
Jersey has Castle Doctrine, too, with the exception that if you can retreat in complete safety you must do so. Of course, no scenario could afford complete safety, so fairly pointless.

Quote:
I’m just curious - what is it you find menacing? His choice of words seems fairly matter-of-fact to me.
Saying he hopes that people will stop shoving is a veiled threat (pretty mild, but coupled with other postings it is more fuel for the fire). Why would people stop shoving? Sudden attack of conscience? Conversion to Christianity? No, the implication is that some carriers might murder you, so be in fear of the law abiding. Fine attitude for Dirty Harry, little questionable if you are only interested in self defense
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 01:16 PM   #894
Shepherd
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
FTFM
95 Suriname 46.14 2009
96 Laos 45.45 2008
97 Yemen 44.54 2009
98 Turkmenistan 42.28 2006
99 United States 42.01 2010
100 Georgia 42 2010
101 Albania 40.32 2010
102 Solomon Islands 37.73 2008
103 Niger 37.45 2008
104 Sri Lanka 36.07 2010
105 Djibouti 35.8 2008
106 Montenegro 35.52 2009
107 India...

Same deal.
Out of curiosity I summed that website's population figures for the 98 nations listed as having a higher murder rate per capita than the U.S. and then divided the total by the supposed world population, which I got from Google, for the year from which that population data was supposedly taken (2013). The total population for those 98 nations (in 2013) worked out to be 33.3% of the world population.

So, and for what it's worth, based on data from that website it looks like fully one third of the world's population live in nations with a higher per capita murder rate than the U.S.. (The population data and murder rate data were from different years, though, I might add.)

So, we in the U.S., then, may only be on the floor of the cellar of the second world! ...woohoo! Well, depending upon how we choose to divide ourselves, of course. ...lol

Feel free to check my calculations.

Last edited by Shepherd; 8th August 2018 at 01:23 PM.
Shepherd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 02:49 PM   #895
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,157
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post


Saying he hopes that people will stop shoving is a veiled threat (pretty mild, but coupled with other postings it is more fuel for the fire). Why would people stop shoving? Sudden attack of conscience? Conversion to Christianity?
People should stop shoving because assault is a crime. Unfortunately some people have never got out of a childish, play ground mentality.
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 03:14 PM   #896
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,469
Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
People should stop shoving because assault is a crime.

Unless it is deemed justifiable defense of oneself or others.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 08:14 PM   #897
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Saying he hopes that people will stop shoving is a veiled threat (pretty mild, but coupled with other postings it is more fuel for the fire). Why would people stop shoving? Sudden attack of conscience? Conversion to Christianity? No, the implication is that some carriers might murder you, so be in fear of the law abiding. Fine attitude for Dirty Harry, little questionable if you are only interested in self defense
I'm not really getting the Eastwood vibe from him, just seems to me he'd like to have one think twice before assaulting people and if one is shot during the commission of that crime, oh well.

But that works both ways of course. Think about it from an attacker's perspective. If I were out there attacking people, I might realize what I'm doing may get me shot one day, So I may as well just go ahead and start beating my victims into unconsciousness as not to give them a chance to shoot me.

The thought of that may make some of these wannabe LEO cowards think twice too before sticking their noses where it doesn't belong and mind their own ******* business.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2018, 08:19 PM   #898
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Unless it is deemed justifiable defense of oneself or others.
Which it wasn't, in this case.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2018, 03:32 AM   #899
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 44,232
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Which it wasn't, in this case.
Exactly when you are defending someone the only acceptable violent act is to shoot the perp. You see an armed crazy man screaming at your girlfriend to kill them you don't push them. Its the florida way.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2018, 09:38 AM   #900
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,070
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Violence is deeply ingrained in the (statistically third-world) culture. Murder rates per capita:
1 Brazil 40,974 2010
2 India 40,752 2009
3 Mexico 25,757 2010
4 Ethiopia 20,239 2008
5 Indonesia 18,963 2008
6 Nigeria 18,422 2008
7 South Africa 15,940 2010
8 Colombia 15,459 2010
9 Russia 14,574 2010
10 Pakistan 13,860 2011
11 Democratic Republic of the Congo 13,558 2008
12 China 13,410 2010
13 Venezuela 13,080 2010
14 United States 12,996 2010
15 Uganda 11,373 2008
16 Cote d'Ivoire 10,801 2008
17 Tanzania 10,357 2008
18 Sudan 10,028 2008
19 Kenya 7,733 2008
20 Honduras 7,104 2011
21 Guatemala 5,681 2011
22 Malawi 5,039 2008
23 Philippines 4,947 2009
24 Burma 4,800 2008
25 Zambia 4,710 2008
26 El Salvador 4,308 2011
27 Bangladesh 3,988 2010
28 Cameroon 3,700 2008
29 North Korea 3,658 2008
30 Ghana 3,646 2008

More than a few think if two men fight, God decides the winner. Except when they lose; then it's "rigged."
Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
You seem to have quoted the "Totals" rather than the "Per Capita." The U.S. is listed 99th in the Per Capita.
It is an outlier compared to its wealth. But not as much as in that link



ETA: This is a log:log plot which is useful for wide variations in scale.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 9th August 2018 at 09:39 AM.
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2018, 12:22 AM   #901
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,469
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Which it wasn't, in this case.

You only think that because you have information that was not available to him at the time. What matters is what was reasonable to him with the information he had. Not the information you have weeks later.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2018, 12:34 AM   #902
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,469
New reports show 'Stand Your Ground' shooter has history of road rage encounters



Quote:
On Dec. 13 2012, a Largo police officer was driving on Highland Avenue when a 4-door sedan with at least four people inside pulled up next to him.

The female driver told the officer that a man in a black Toyota pickup truck had just held a gun up to her.

The officer made a U-turn and followed Drejka into a church parking lot.

Police said Drejka had his driver's license and concealed weapon's permit in his hand before the officer even spoke to him.

Before the officer could ask Drejka any questions, he blurted out that he had not pointed a gun at the other car and they were lying.

Quote:
On Nov. 13, 2013, a Florida Highway Patrol trooper responded to crash on Palm Harbor Boulevard and Florida Avenue after a driver rear-ended Drejka's truck.

According to the report, a woman pulled into the center lane to travel north on Palm Harbor Boulevard. She was waiting for Drejka to pass.

Drejka told troopers he felt the driver was about to hit him as she was pulling out.

Troopers said Drejka slammed on his brakes several times in an aggressive manner in front of the driver. Once they approached Pennsylvania Avenue, Drejka again slammed on his brakes and the driver struck the rear of his truck.

Quote:
On Jan. 10, 2012, a Pinellas County Sheriffís Office report included allegations by two teenagers that Drejka flashed a handgun at them during a road rage incident on Sunset Point Road and US 19.

And get this:

Quote:
Truck driver Richard Kelly said two months ago, he got into a dispute over the same handicap space that lead to McGlockton's fatal shooting.

Kelly said he saw a hateful side of Drejka.

ďHe was basically threatening to shoot me that day,Ē said Richard Kelly. ďBut I didn't think nothing of it. I mean like he called me the 'n' word and stuff like that.Ē

This Drejka guy is a piece of ****. I hope he gets the death penalty.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2018, 10:29 AM   #903
Tippit
Master Poster
 
Tippit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,725
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
BTW, I don't mean to sound so confrontational or accusatory. Your evasiveness to my simple, direct question is frustrating. If you have no interest in self defense without a gun, but a ton of interest in having multiple guns to shoot someone should the situation present itself, you can just say so. Perfectly legal. Nothing wrong with it.

I have raised three kids, and was on a volunteer rescue squad before I moved to a town with a professional team. I have spent a lot of my adult life trying to keep children and victims alive. This casual willingness to kill others is more than a little fascinating, so I hope you can excuse any abrasiveness on my part.
If you're accusing me of sounding "menacing" to would-be violent criminals, then I'm guilty as charged. My firearms are my self-defense mechanism. I'm not interested in brawling with aggressive drunks, or rolling around the ground practicing jiu-jitsu against multiple attackers. Your casual willingness to condone violence against others, and indict people like me who only wish to protect myself, isn't exactly fascinating to me, It's just par for the course.

I think that given that you've more or less accused me of looking for an excuse to murder someone in cold blood, my charity for this conversation has expired. Once again, to sum things up, if you don't violently attack people in Florida, you will be fine.
__________________
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."
- Lord Acton
Tippit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2018, 07:02 PM   #904
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You only think that because you have information that was not available to him at the time. What matters is what was reasonable to him with the information he had. Not the information you have weeks later.
No, I think that because there's video of McGlockton casually walking up to Drejka and knocking the **** out of him. There doesn't seem to be any sense of urgency in his approach and if I were a juror you'd have a very tough time convincing me he acted reasonably.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2018, 08:08 PM   #905
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,469
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
No, I think that because there's video of McGlockton casually walking up to Drejka and knocking the **** out of him.

I'd like to see that video because it is not the one everyone else has.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2018, 08:11 PM   #906
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
There's only one video I know of.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2018, 07:39 AM   #907
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,486
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
If you're accusing me of sounding "menacing" to would-be violent criminals, then I'm guilty as charged. My firearms are my self-defense mechanism. I'm not interested in brawling with aggressive drunks, or rolling around the ground practicing jiu-jitsu against multiple attackers. Your casual willingness to condone violence against others, and indict people like me who only wish to protect myself, isn't exactly fascinating to me, It's just par for the course.

I think that given that you've more or less accused me of looking for an excuse to murder someone in cold blood, my charity for this conversation has expired.
I don't suggest that. And I think you know it. I take an interest in philosophies of self defense, and I find yours perplexing. There are limited self defense situations in which you would be given ample time to unholster and draw a gun, and fewer still when you could fire safely (hitting bystanders, potentially many yards away). In theory, a gun seems a poor self defense choice on balance. And please ease up with the strawmen. I don't think you are looking to murder. I think you glorify the idea, and I am questioning how realistic it is, and how your philosophy of self defense accounts for realistic scenarios.

Quote:
Once again, to sum things up, if you don't violently attack people in Florida, you will be fine.
In light of Florida's crime and murder statistics, this is howlingly comical.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2018, 07:53 AM   #908
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,934
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
I'd like to see that video because it is not the one everyone else has.
It is indeed the one you saw, it is the one everyone saw.

By the way, there is another thread where a basketball coach punched a guy who fell, the victim hit his head on the concrete and the victim died, not from the punch of course, but from his head striking the concrete.
__________________
CCP human rights abuse deniers are the fundamental equivalent of holocaust deniers.

Last edited by The Big Dog; 11th August 2018 at 07:56 AM.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2018, 08:01 AM   #909
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 4,486
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is indeed the one you saw, it is the one everyone saw.

By the way, there is another thread where a basketball coach punched a guy who fell, the victim hit his head on the concrete and the victim died, not from the punch of course, but from his head striking the concrete.
But the puncher was defending himself from an aggressive attacker. So justified under your theories, right?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2018, 03:39 PM   #910
This is The End
 
This is The End's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,469
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is indeed the one you saw, it is the one everyone saw.

Well, I forgot about you.

Aside from you and AJM8125 I don't know anyone who has seen a video of "McGlockton casually walking up to Drejka and knocking the **** out of him".
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2018, 04:04 PM   #911
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,157
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Well, I forgot about you.

Aside from you and AJM8125 I don't know anyone who has seen a video of "McGlockton casually walking up to Drejka and knocking the **** out of him".
When he's going to defend his good lady he's moving fairly slowly and casually. After he knocks Drejka to the ground and get's shot he abandons the defence of his good lady at a much higher speed.
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 05:31 AM   #912
SuburbanTurkey
Muse
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 549
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
New reports show 'Stand Your Ground' shooter has history of road rage encounters












And get this:




This Drejka guy is a piece of ****. I hope he gets the death penalty.
None of this is surprising. Drejka is a public menace and the courts need to intervene.

Don't know why it is taking so long for the DA to make a decision. Surely they have reviewed all the relevant evidence at this point.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 05:57 AM   #913
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Don't know why it is taking so long for the DA to make a decision.
Probably waiting for the next big outrage to come along so they can quietly sweep this one under the rug. No charges will be brought.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 09:23 AM   #914
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,182
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Probably waiting for the next big outrage to come along so they can quietly sweep this one under the rug. No charges will be brought.
Drejka's been charged with manslaughter today.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/public...case_170853729
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 09:27 AM   #915
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,108
Good. He is clearly a danger to the community.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 10:19 AM   #916
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 20,384
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Good. He is clearly a danger to the community.
I'd be surprised if a jury convicts him, given the law as it is currently written.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 10:34 AM   #917
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,179
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Drejka's been charged with manslaughter today.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/public...case_170853729
Never unhappy with being wrong under these circumstances.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I'd be surprised if a jury convicts him, given the law as it is currently written.
If he survives lock up, that is. He probably canít take three steps without being shoved to the ground.
__________________
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 11:15 AM   #918
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 20,384
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Never unhappy with being wrong under these circumstances.



If he survives lock up, that is. He probably canít take three steps without being shoved to the ground.
Bail is pretty light, so he probably will not be in jail long.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 11:49 AM   #919
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,455
If he is found innocent, Florida will have to reimburse him for all legal fees.

He'll probably sue them as well for the false imprisonment.

It's in the hands of a jury now, which is fine. The charges were filed by the DA, and the Sheriff put that call in the DA's hands, which is also fine.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2018, 11:57 AM   #920
Disbelief
Master Poster
 
Disbelief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,599
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If he is found innocent, Florida will have to reimburse him for all legal fees.

He'll probably sue them as well for the false imprisonment.

It's in the hands of a jury now, which is fine. The charges were filed by the DA, and the Sheriff put that call in the DA's hands, which is also fine.
Why would he be able to sue? If there is probable cause, he cannot sue them for false imprisonment and not sure if the state is responsible for his legal fees. Cite needed.
__________________
Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same?

Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman
Disbelief is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.