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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 7th August 2018, 12:24 PM   #721
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I've provided actual news stories and in other thread links to actual medical articles. You and this latest blog post you're drooling over have provided links to conspiracy theories, unsupported assertions, Religious Right propaganda, and a whole lot of paranoid delusions.




Which makes it even more disturbing that they so frequently resort to Religious Right rhetoric, and why they feel the need to rebrand themselves.




Amazing what you can prove if you refuse to provide verifiable evidence.




As opposed to "all transpeople are evil monsters trying to destroy society and who should be sent to re-education camps to protect teh wimminiz"?

And if you hear that Religious Right people actually accept transwomen, you're not listening very clearly. I grew up in Religious Right churches, I'm far more familiar with them than you are, and that's so ridiculous as to be in the realm of Bigfoot and crystal healing. But by all means, don't let a thing like facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.




Let's take a look at this one bit of conspiracy theorizing, retired US Army Col. Jennifer Pritzkel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Pritzkel

Let's see, a retired military philanthropist who inherited a bunch of money, and whose primary activity is funding citizen soldier initiatives and education; with a small sideline into transgender research. OMG she must be trying to create a transgender army to take over the world and turn us all transgender!!1!one!




LOL! You do realize that not all transpeople are flaming leftists, right? You clearly don't consider transpeople fully human, but they are, and like all other humans they have political opinions that run the full spectrum from right to left and authoritarian to libertarian/anarchist.

Are you really so ignorant that you're not aware of conservative, right-wing LGBTs like the Log Cabin Republicans? Or gay neo-Nazis like Milo Yiannopoulos? Most of whom are as profoundly anti-trans as you are. I'm sure you'd get along famously.
What's your definition of the word "woman", luchog?
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Old 7th August 2018, 12:55 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
You aren't seriously comparing that to the typical transphobic drivel you've posted in this thread, right?
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:55 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It's because they know full well that it would immediately become clear they're just talking about reinforcing sexism and patriarchy once they actually define their terms. Basically the same reason that the Intelligent Design crowd tries their best to never give a definition of that "Intelligent Designer" lest it immediately become clear they're just talking about reinforcing religious education in lieu of scientific education.

Personally I just give them 15 crackpot points every time they refuse to define their terms (number 14 on the list, but I increased it from 10 points to 15 points because they're not just inventing new terms but redefining - or rather undefining - existing ones).

ETA: I ask once. If they don't give a definition, I ask again. If by the second time they don't give a definition they just go into the loony bin as far as I see it.
It's because you aren't arguing in good faith and will thus just say 'No that's not true!' That gets us nowhere. We know this for a fact, empirically. This isn't the first discussion on this and you can assume our various answers haven't changed as yours clearly hasn't either.
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Old 7th August 2018, 04:12 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Says someone posting as "Luchog". That'll be what's on your driving licence then?

Thinking about it, this needs to be addressed separately. Care to post your full name, home address, and employer's address? Because that is what your TERF idols do to transpeople to "out" them and encourage harassment of them. It's called "doxxing", and your precious Cathy Brennan really loves that tactic. Well guess what, it's not going to work.

Second, I'm not the one calling for ostracism, harassment, and erasure of an entire group. You are, and the people you're choosing as your mentors are. Anyone who calls for the exclusion, oppression, and erasure of an entire group of people and hides behind an anonymous pseudonym is a coward, plain and simple.

Transpeople have had to deal with lesbians, and gays, denying their existence and attempting to exclude them every day of their lives. This TERF claim of "lesbian erasure" is just another page from the Religious Right playbook.

Christians don't get to oppress minority religions or LGBTQs anymore? It's a "War on Christianity" and "You're infringing my religious freedom". White people don't get to enslave or marginalize black people anymore? "White people are the true victims" and "White genocide". Lesbians don't get to exclude and marginalize transpeople anymore? "The existence of transpeople erases lesbians".

It's the same old boring tactic. Accuse those you are trying to erase/marginalize/kill of trying to do the same to you. When they try to defend themselves, scream about how you're the true victim and being oppressed by their attempts to simply exist. And the problem is that there are plenty of people stupid enough and bigoted enough to buy into that crap.

You're denying the very existence of transpeople. If that doesn't count as erasure, nothing does. And before you fall back on that "transpeople are erasing lesbian" nonsense, it isn't happening, anywhere. There maybe a vanishingly few individual conflicts, but it has nothing to do with "erasure" and more with people defending themselves from attacks, and a miniscule number of individuals acting like jackasses. To claim that the action of two or three unpleasant people are representative of the entirety of a far larger group is the heart and soul of bigotry.

Well, I'm done legitimizing this garbage by engaging with it. It's nothing but bigotry, always was, always will be, however you tart it up with lies and distortions and unfalsifiable anecdotes and manipulated statistics and complicated conspiracy theories. You're acting like a woo, and promoting woo, and supporting people who hurt other people because of woo. You're no different from the Religious Right and their sympathizers when you do that, however you want to pretend that you are.

I choose to hide behind anonymity online because of people like you. Because of bigots who would harass me, get me fired, and possibly even kill me, because of who I am. Not because of my actions, but simply because I am different from them. And you've demonstrated here that you're one of them, that you support the people who actually go out and do this. I have friends who this has actually happened to, who have lost their jobs, who have lost their homes, because of bigots like you. I would love nothing more than to be who I am openly and unashamedly, but thanks to this BS threatening my livelihood and existence, I can't. So congratulations, you're at least getting part of what you want, just like the Christians and alt.right bigots that you emulate.

Transpeople are people, and they deserve to be treated as people, period. If you can't do that, then you're not worth my time to respond to ever again.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:17 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Thinking about it, this needs to be addressed separately. Care to post your full name, home address, and employer's address? Because that is what your TERF idols do to transpeople to "out" them and encourage harassment of them. It's called "doxxing", and your precious Cathy Brennan really loves that tactic. Well guess what, it's not going to work.

Second, I'm not the one calling for ostracism, harassment, and erasure of an entire group. You are, and the people you're choosing as your mentors are. Anyone who calls for the exclusion, oppression, and erasure of an entire group of people and hides behind an anonymous pseudonym is a coward, plain and simple.

Transpeople have had to deal with lesbians, and gays, denying their existence and attempting to exclude them every day of their lives. This TERF claim of "lesbian erasure" is just another page from the Religious Right playbook.

Christians don't get to oppress minority religions or LGBTQs anymore? It's a "War on Christianity" and "You're infringing my religious freedom". White people don't get to enslave or marginalize black people anymore? "White people are the true victims" and "White genocide". Lesbians don't get to exclude and marginalize transpeople anymore? "The existence of transpeople erases lesbians".

It's the same old boring tactic. Accuse those you are trying to erase/marginalize/kill of trying to do the same to you. When they try to defend themselves, scream about how you're the true victim and being oppressed by their attempts to simply exist. And the problem is that there are plenty of people stupid enough and bigoted enough to buy into that crap.

You're denying the very existence of transpeople. If that doesn't count as erasure, nothing does. And before you fall back on that "transpeople are erasing lesbian" nonsense, it isn't happening, anywhere. There maybe a vanishingly few individual conflicts, but it has nothing to do with "erasure" and more with people defending themselves from attacks, and a miniscule number of individuals acting like jackasses. To claim that the action of two or three unpleasant people are representative of the entirety of a far larger group is the heart and soul of bigotry.

Well, I'm done legitimizing this garbage by engaging with it. It's nothing but bigotry, always was, always will be, however you tart it up with lies and distortions and unfalsifiable anecdotes and manipulated statistics and complicated conspiracy theories. You're acting like a woo, and promoting woo, and supporting people who hurt other people because of woo. You're no different from the Religious Right and their sympathizers when you do that, however you want to pretend that you are.

I choose to hide behind anonymity online because of people like you. Because of bigots who would harass me, get me fired, and possibly even kill me, because of who I am. Not because of my actions, but simply because I am different from them. And you've demonstrated here that you're one of them, that you support the people who actually go out and do this. I have friends who this has actually happened to, who have lost their jobs, who have lost their homes, because of bigots like you. I would love nothing more than to be who I am openly and unashamedly, but thanks to this BS threatening my livelihood and existence, I can't. So congratulations, you're at least getting part of what you want, just like the Christians and alt.right bigots that you emulate.

Transpeople are people, and they deserve to be treated as people, period. If you can't do that, then you're not worth my time to respond to ever again.
This is a very enlightening post for me, one who is largely ignorant of the whole issue/issues not mention the entire LBGT community. Thank you for taking the time.

I'm still confused, I have to say. My opinion don't amount to a hill of beans in this debate but I'm still old fashioned enough to believe that there are only two genders and I'm certain that at a stretch you could call me bigoted because of that. That said, I'm finding it hard to believe that Trans females (that's men to women right?) as a group represent such a threat to lesbians. Part of me feels that there is resentment from them at having share their "minority cake".

But hey! People of both sides don't dump on me........ yet. My opinion is still very naive and I'm learning a lot from this thread.
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Old 8th August 2018, 01:20 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You aren't seriously comparing that to the typical transphobic drivel you've posted in this thread, right?
No, I'm comparing this transgender meme with far-right-wing rhetoric and violence.

Now, rather than attempting to smear people you disagree with with sweeping Godwin-style generalisations, please give some actual examples of my supposed far-right-stye rhetoric.

Before that, however, I'd like you to give your definition of the word 'woman' and also your definition of 'transphobia', illustrating it with anything supposedly transphobic that I've posted in this thread.

And do you think it's possible for a lesbian to have a penis?

Thanks.
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Old 8th August 2018, 01:42 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Thinking about it, this needs to be addressed separately. Care to post your full name, home address, and employer's address? Because that is what your TERF idols do to transpeople to "out" them and encourage harassment of them. It's called "doxxing", and your precious Cathy Brennan really loves that tactic. Well guess what, it's not going to work.

Second, I'm not the one calling for ostracism, harassment, and erasure of an entire group. You are, and the people you're choosing as your mentors are. Anyone who calls for the exclusion, oppression, and erasure of an entire group of people and hides behind an anonymous pseudonym is a coward, plain and simple.

Transpeople have had to deal with lesbians, and gays, denying their existence and attempting to exclude them every day of their lives. This TERF claim of "lesbian erasure" is just another page from the Religious Right playbook.

Christians don't get to oppress minority religions or LGBTQs anymore? It's a "War on Christianity" and "You're infringing my religious freedom". White people don't get to enslave or marginalize black people anymore? "White people are the true victims" and "White genocide". Lesbians don't get to exclude and marginalize transpeople anymore? "The existence of transpeople erases lesbians".

It's the same old boring tactic. Accuse those you are trying to erase/marginalize/kill of trying to do the same to you. When they try to defend themselves, scream about how you're the true victim and being oppressed by their attempts to simply exist. And the problem is that there are plenty of people stupid enough and bigoted enough to buy into that crap.

You're denying the very existence of transpeople. If that doesn't count as erasure, nothing does. And before you fall back on that "transpeople are erasing lesbian" nonsense, it isn't happening, anywhere. There maybe a vanishingly few individual conflicts, but it has nothing to do with "erasure" and more with people defending themselves from attacks, and a miniscule number of individuals acting like jackasses. To claim that the action of two or three unpleasant people are representative of the entirety of a far larger group is the heart and soul of bigotry.

Well, I'm done legitimizing this garbage by engaging with it. It's nothing but bigotry, always was, always will be, however you tart it up with lies and distortions and unfalsifiable anecdotes and manipulated statistics and complicated conspiracy theories. You're acting like a woo, and promoting woo, and supporting people who hurt other people because of woo. You're no different from the Religious Right and their sympathizers when you do that, however you want to pretend that you are.

I choose to hide behind anonymity online because of people like you. Because of bigots who would harass me, get me fired, and possibly even kill me, because of who I am. Not because of my actions, but simply because I am different from them. And you've demonstrated here that you're one of them, that you support the people who actually go out and do this. I have friends who this has actually happened to, who have lost their jobs, who have lost their homes, because of bigots like you. I would love nothing more than to be who I am openly and unashamedly, but thanks to this BS threatening my livelihood and existence, I can't. So congratulations, you're at least getting part of what you want, just like the Christians and alt.right bigots that you emulate.

Transpeople are people, and they deserve to be treated as people, period. If you can't do that, then you're not worth my time to respond to ever again.
Who's going to win the identity politics, victim olympics?


In the UK, anyway, it's critics of transactivist ideology who are being harassed, no-platformed and hounded out of their jobs. As you can see from the lesbian blue plaque example above, society is bending over backwards to take transgender people's feelings about themselves into account, even if it means erasing the very word LESBIAN in the process.

The idea that some people are born transgender (hence the claim, for example, that transchildren exist) appears to have been developed by the medical profession as it became technologically possible to medically change someone's outer sex characteristics with hormones and surgery. Since then, especially recently, transgender woo has rapidly spread by social contagion, aided by the internet.
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Old 8th August 2018, 02:40 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Equalities Act rights are where there will be most consequences, eg under UK employment legislation awards in sexual discrimination cases for women are uncapped, while those for men are capped, to reflect current inequalities in pay. If gender is simply a matter of signing a form, then this approach will need to be rethought.
I would have thought that that was the greater problem. Remove the cap on male awards, and what problem is left?
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Old 8th August 2018, 02:45 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Lesbian erasure: A blue plaque celebrating lesbian pioneer, Ann Lister, shies away from using the word LESBIAN. Uses "Gender non-conforming" instead:
Hopefully the plaque, at least, managed to spell her name right.
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:09 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I would have thought that that was the greater problem. Remove the cap on male awards, and what problem is left?
General inflation in awards in employment law cases?
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Old 8th August 2018, 05:19 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
General inflation in awards in employment law cases?
This was something I didn't know, I think it is a ridiculous point of law. Has this not been challenged in the courts? It seems fundamentally at odds with anti-sex discrimination legislation.

ETA: It looks like this isn't the case:
Quote:
https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/la...udgments-pt30/

4. No compensation limit in discrimination claims
Marshall v Southampton and South-West Hampshire Area Health Authority (No.2) (2 August 1993)

Until this challenge to the cap on discrimination awards, the amount of compensation that the courts and tribunals could award for discrimination was severely limited.

In a landmark case, the ECJ decided that it was contrary to EU law for member states to place an upper limit on compensation for loss and damage suffered as a result of sex discrimination. In Ms Marshall’s case, her compensation was subject to a limit of £8,500, whereas the tribunal would have awarded her £20,000.

The Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and Race Relations Act 1976 were subsequently amended to remove the cap on discrimination awards. Under the Equality Act 2010, discrimination compensation is currently uncapped.
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Old 8th August 2018, 05:45 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Lesbian erasure: A blue plaque celebrating lesbian pioneer, Ann Lister, shies away from using the word LESBIAN. Uses "Gender non-conforming" instead:

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I AGREE
Looks like a storm in a teacup. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...an-anne-lister

Quote:
York Civic Trust apologised for the fact that some people felt let down by the plaque’s wording and said it was open to updating it in the near future. “The wording was shaped by several open consultations held with York’s LGBT community between July 2017 and February 2018,” it said in a statement.
I’m a little puzzled how putting up a plaque to someone is ‘erasing’ them.
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Old 8th August 2018, 05:48 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
No, I'm comparing this transgender meme with far-right-wing rhetoric and violence.
I wasn't talking about violence. Saying "**** you" (which is essentially what that tweet said) doesn't have anything to do with it. Seriously.

Quote:
Now, rather than attempting to smear people you disagree with with sweeping Godwin-style generalisations, please give some actual examples of my supposed far-right-stye rhetoric.
Here's a great example: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=624

Note that in this post you demonstrate an incredible ignorance here that's matched by your hysterical hostility towards what you call "dangerous transgender ideology".

In reality psychologists (or at least the vast majority of them) do not pressure gender nonconforming boys into believing that they are "born in the wrong body" or that they will need SRS.

Again this is really comparable to those that say education children at school about homo/bisexuality is really tantamount to "making children gay" and is "indoctrinating them into homosexuality".

Quote:
Before that, however, I'd like you to give your definition of the word 'woman' and also your definition of 'transphobia', illustrating it with anything supposedly transphobic that I've posted in this thread.
A woman is someone who displays a physical appearance and mannerism that's associated with the female sex. Transphobia is fear and/or hatred towards transsexual individuals.

Quote:
And do you think it's possible for a lesbian to have a penis?
Sure.
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Old 8th August 2018, 05:49 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This was something I didn't know, I think it is a ridiculous point of law. Has this not been challenged in the courts? It seems fundamentally at odds with anti-sex discrimination legislation.

ETA: It looks like this isn't the case:
Seems I need a refresher HR course...
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:03 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I’m a little puzzled how putting up a plaque to someone is ‘erasing’ them.
Well apparently if you don't explicitly mention that someone is a lesbian, because that's the single most important part of their person, is tantamount to trying to "erase lesbians". By the same reasoning surely failing to mention their race would mean they are "erasing the white race"?

Since lesbians are among the most tolerated and accepted of LGBT people it would require some pretty crazy reasoning to conclude that they are being oppressed by "dangerous transgender ideology" or whatever.
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:50 AM   #736
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We are also all a product of our time and often labels we are happy with today would seem very strange or even abhorrent to the person we are applying them.

How did that famous person perceive and/or label themselves is what I think should guide us.

Saying that I'm slightly confused at the need to state someone's homosexuality on a plaque, surely it should be about what they achieved in their life?

......

To the wider point, if a lesbian wants to have a penis I don't see it's any business of mine, if they do find that other lesbians don't want to have sex with such a person then that is just tough. No one should be pressuring anyone into having sex with them whether there are penises involved or not.

......

I remember the "L" being put into the likes of "gay centre", I was always a tad uncomfortable about that as both women and men could be gay. But did understand at the time that many lesbians felt "gay" was in the publics' mind reffering to male homosexuals so they wanted it highlighted that "gay rights" and so on were not something of interest to and for only male homosexuals. I think the lesbians and the supporters of adding "the L" were right. It's unfortunate that some people want to take it out again. We've acheived a lot by unity rather than separatism.

I am more than sad to see some of the same arguments I grew up hearing about male homosexuals being kept out of places that were for "real men" now being directed at trans folk.

And the insulting nonsense of homosexual boys being "feminine" and therefore being pushed to consider themselves girls is a load of tripe. Homesexual boys are attracted to males which has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be a boy. It is nothing but the old "which of you is the woman in your relationship" I used to hear when I was much younger repackaged. It was disgusting ignorant bigotry back when I was boy as it is today.

If someone is assaulting or harassing anyone under the guise of equality then they should be dealt with as an individual, we shouldn't be tarring everyone because of a very tiny minority of bad faith actors.
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Old 8th August 2018, 08:19 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the insulting nonsense of homosexual boys being "feminine" and therefore being pushed to consider themselves girls is a load of tripe. Homesexual boys are attracted to males which has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be a boy. It is nothing but the old "which of you is the woman in your relationship" I used to hear when I was much younger repackaged. It was disgusting ignorant bigotry back when I was boy as it is today.
It's the part of the anti (or to be charitable, the critical) trans camp to claim that "That's what trans-activists and trans-positive medical professionals do! Because they're gender essentialists!"

But in my experience it's only beginners and gatekeepers who display gender essentialism. Those are the people who say things like "That tomboy seems more like they'd be trans than you do. You're so into shoes and fashion and reading - they like baseball and mud! They would fit right in as a boy but you wouldn't."

"Are you a boy or a girl?" I got sick of that question before I was five. I used to say I was a fire truck. I've lived a whole life recognizing that I'm kind of Bad At Girl - but would I have been tempted to try being a boy if that was In Fashion when I was a kid? Why? None of the negative consequences of being Bad At Girl would be improved by joining an even more marginalized group. A tomboy girl already has a pretty easy time joining a group of boys to play with. I didn't even internalize "you're not like other girls," a phrase I still slightly resent, because there are TONS of other girls who ARE like that. Not following stereotype in a group doesn't mean you're not in or don't deserve the common respect to be recognized as a member of the group. It's why it gets under my skin when I see someone say to any minority "you're not like other X". It's why I step back and give Pharphis some respect because if he says he's MRA then he IS, and maybe if I knew the group better my impression wouldn't be defined by its stereotype.

I do know a few women who as teenagers didn't like girls and couldn't get excited about being a girl themselves for reasons like, none of the girl characters in the media they liked were as good as the boy characters. And they didn't think they were attractive, and everyone makes such a big deal about girls having to be attractive. And it's not fun to have to deal with periods. Do trans-critical folks really think medical professionals see girls like this and just start encouraging them to transition? How dumb do they think they are?
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:05 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm still confused, I have to say. My opinion don't amount to a hill of beans in this debate but I'm still old fashioned enough to believe that there are only two genders and I'm certain that at a stretch you could call me bigoted because of that.

There is a whole lot of prejudice out there (I'd hesitate to call it bigotry) that is simply cultural, that exists because people just weren't taught any better. It fades with time and education.

There is a good deal of scientific research pointing to transgenderism being deeply ingrained and likely based in neurology rather than being the "learned" or "enforced" behaviour that the bigots would have us believe. Research that supports the idea that the innate body image that all people have is established very early in life, and does not change much if at all, aside from the normal maturation process, puberty and such. The overwhelming majority of transpeople appear to have that image of themselves well before puberty, in fact, even if they lack the cultural referents to explain or describe it.

Some of that research has been posted to this forum, in previous threads on the subject, if you can be arsed to go dig them up (I can't be, at the moment).

Quote:
That said, I'm finding it hard to believe that Trans females (that's men to women right?) as a group represent such a threat to lesbians. Part of me feels that there is resentment from them at having share their "minority cake".

It's all part of the hierarchy of privilege. People are much more likely to stratify themselves into classes and privilege groups than they are to collaborate and accept all others as equals.

We saw it develop among black slaves, field vs. house slaves; and after the Civil War amongst black people, with a whole hierarchy of social status based on skin tone, with black and mixed-race people with lighter skin tones maintaining higher status than those with darker tones; and the entire controversy over straightened vs. natural ("nappy") hair. Most of that is simply internalized oppression and natural human tendencies toward classism.

It didn't helps that lighter-skinned black people, and those with straightened hair, have experienced more social acceptance and some measure of privilege in mainstream American culture compared to their darker, "nappier" peers, which reinforced that hierarchy.

Standard in-group, out-group dynamics. When no groups are rigidly defined by culture, ability, tribe, or other outside sources, humans will invent categories to toss each other into.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Note that in this post you demonstrate an incredible ignorance here that's matched by your hysterical hostility towards what you call "dangerous transgender ideology".
(...)
Again this is really comparable to those that say education children at school about homo/bisexuality is really tantamount to "making children gay" and is "indoctrinating them into homosexuality".

Not just tantamount, effectively identical.

Quote:
In reality psychologists (or at least the vast majority of them) do not pressure gender nonconforming boys into believing that they are "born in the wrong body" or that they will need SRS.

And, in fact, a good deal of counseling with both the child and parents is required before any child is even considered "legitimately" transgendered, and may be offered the option of delaying puberty until they're old enough to make an informed decision.


Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Since lesbians are among the most tolerated and accepted of LGBT people it would require some pretty crazy reasoning to conclude that they are being oppressed by "dangerous transgender ideology" or whatever.

There was a comment made, aimed mainly at white people, but it definitely applies here as well, "When you are used to privilege, equality can feel like oppression". And while lesbians do not enjoy the full privileges accorded to the heterosexual majority, they do tend rank higher in the social hierarchy of both mainstream culture and LGBTQ culture, than gay men, and definitely well above transpeople. Lesbians and bisexual women are more "sexy" to white male dominated culture than gay men are, and certainly more than transpeople are. Provided of course that they fit a particular stereotype of "femme" presentation, something that gay/bisexual men and transgenders have no equivalent of.

It's also interesting to see that the overwhelming majority of TERFs are also white.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am more than sad to see some of the same arguments I grew up hearing about male homosexuals being kept out of places that were for "real men" now being directed at trans folk.

And that's the real issue here. Nearly all of the anti-trans TERF rhetoric against transpeople is simply the old anti-homosexuality rhetoric of the Religious Right repackaged. The same "indoctrination/recruiting" libel, the same "homosexual agenda" conspiracy theories renamed. There is very little difference. "Lesbian predators molesting and recruiting our good straight young girls" became "Trans predators molesting and recruiting..." and so on. The "Homosexual Agenda" to turn everyone homosexual and hunt down and destroy good straight Christians has become the "Trans Agenda" to turn everyone trans, with a side conspiracy of "Big Pharma" backing the agenda to sell hormone therapy, and doctors conspiring to create more expensive surgeries and put money in their own pockets (it's sort of a smorgasboard of woo). "Gay people are all paedophiles trying to rape our children" became "transpeople are all paedophiles dressing up as women to lurk in public restrooms and locker rooms to rape our children". "Gay people are going to force straight people to have sex with them" became "transpeople are trying to trick or force straight and gay people to have sex with them".

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
"Are you a boy or a girl?" I got sick of that question before I was five. I used to say I was a fire truck. I've lived a whole life recognizing that I'm kind of Bad At Girl - but would I have been tempted to try being a boy if that was In Fashion when I was a kid? Why? None of the negative consequences of being Bad At Girl would be improved by joining an even more marginalized group.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:38 PM   #739
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I’ve quit the Labour Party because it has betrayed women

"...the present iteration of the Labour Party is busily re-writing history to claim that All Women Shortlistss were never ever exclusively designed for women, so that the Leadership can justify instating natal-male transwomen into women’s places within a mechanism that was designed to circumvent sexism. This is biologically-based sexism – in the Party, without first consulting with ALL women members. It is treachery."
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:18 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
I’ve quit the Labour Party because it has betrayed women

"...the present iteration of the Labour Party is busily re-writing history to claim that All Women Shortlistss were never ever exclusively designed for women, so that the Leadership can justify instating natal-male transwomen into women’s places within a mechanism that was designed to circumvent sexism. This is biologically-based sexism – in the Party, without first consulting with ALL women members. It is treachery."
I'm struggling to understand her beef? Is there another story/article she is responding to?
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:36 AM   #741
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No place in the UK Labour Party for people who think men can't be women: Zero tolerance for members who think men don't belong on women-only shortlists.

Quote:
In an interview with BuzzFeed News, Austin-Behan — who in 2016 also became Britain's first out gay lord mayor — said party members who campaign against trans women being fully accepted as women should no longer be allowed in the party.

The former Labour councillor said the party should take a “zero tolerance” stance on anti-trans activists, following hundreds of its members reportedly campaigning against the inclusion of trans women in women-only shortlists.

“It goes against the values of what the Labour party is,” said Austin-Behan. “Because it’s about equality, diversity, and inclusion and the only way you’re going to tackle that is if we’re all on board.”

“I think there needs to be a lot of questions about their integrity,” he said of those found to be signing petitions or otherwise publicly opposing trans rights. “I completely disagree with the whole thing — the [opposition to] shortlists that it has to be what you were at birth. That’s utter rubbish. If people are trans women, then they are women.”
People Who Oppose Trans Rights Have No Place In Labour, Says The First LGBT Mayoral Adviser
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:42 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
No place in the UK Labour Party for people who think men can't be women: Zero tolerance for members who think men don't belong on women-only shortlists.



People Who Oppose Trans Rights Have No Place In Labour, Says The First LGBT Mayoral Adviser
Thanks for the context, that helps me understand her article. Strange that she leaves rather than campaigns and fights for what she believes in but each to their own.

Quite sincere question how many trans women have been put up as a candidate on women only list for labour MPs?
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:43 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm struggling to understand her beef? Is there another story/article she is responding to?
Ann Sinnott interviewed by Venice Allan:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:21 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post



I’m a little puzzled how putting up a plaque to someone is ‘erasing’ them.
TBH, I'm more than a little puzzled that you don't get it.

It's not erasing her. It's erasing the fact that she was a lesbian, which what she was famous for being.

The word "lesbian" has been replaced with "gender-nonconforming'.

Question: What's wrong with using the word 'lesbian' to describe a lesbian?

Possible Answer: Transwomen (men) feel excluded by not being able to be lesbians themselves and because lesbians (homosexual women) don't find them (men) sexually attractive = transphobia.
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Old 9th August 2018, 03:12 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I wasn't talking about violence. Saying "**** you" (which is essentially what that tweet said) doesn't have anything to do with it. Seriously.
Clenched fists. Penis as a lethal weapon. Forced oral sex (rape). 'TERF' slur. It's interesting that you find these things innocuous.

What do you think of this: "Trannies can choke on my man dick"?

Transphobic? Or just saying "**** you"?


Quote:
LOL!

Here is the allegedly far-right rhetoric Arcade is referring to:

"It instructive that a thread about lesbians fighting to defend their hard-won rights and recognition is now a thread about men's rights.

Gender-critical feminists are right now standing up for boys by challenging the dangerous transgender ideology that justifies telling vulnerable young boys that they have been born in the wrong body and will require medical intervention and, later, physical mutilation (e.g. castration) in order to align their so-called "gender" with their "real" sex.

Feminists (e.g Andrea Dworkin) have been pioneers in exposing and challenging child sexual abuse.
"

In what way is that comparable to "far-right rhetoric"?

Quote:
Note that in this post you demonstrate an incredible ignorance here that's matched by your hysterical hostility towards what you call "dangerous transgender ideology".
Transgender ideology is harming children, setting them up for lifelong drug dependency, irreversible physical mutilation and even sterility. It not far-rightwing to be concerned about children's welfare

Quote:
In reality psychologists (or at least the vast majority of them) do not pressure gender nonconforming boys into believing that they are "born in the wrong body" or that they will need SRS.

Again this is really comparable to those that say education children at school about homo/bisexuality is really tantamount to "making children gay" and is "indoctrinating them into homosexuality".
Was Margaret Thatcher far right? Maybe.

There is no scientific evidence that transchildren even exist. Information (and misinformation) on the internet plays a much bigger role than psychologists in persuading confused parents that their son, for example, who likes wearing a pink tutu isn't just a boy who likes wearing a pink tutu, he's a girl, he's TRANSGENDER!

Promoting such rubbish in schools is dangerous to children's welfare.


Arcade22's definition of the word 'woman':

Quote:
A woman is someone who displays a physical appearance and mannerism that's associated with the female sex.
Biological sex does not determine mannerisms.

It's amazing that you can't see how this definition erases what women actually are: Adult human females, i.e. belonging to the sex that can grow babies. Women are not performances. They are neither their (gender-stereotypical) mannerisms nor their (gender-stereotypical?) appearance.

Quote:
Transphobia is fear and/or hatred towards transsexual individuals.
How does one distinguish transphobia from homophobia?



Quote:
Sure.
No, lesbians don't have penises. Lesbians aren't sexually aroused by penises. Lesbians are homosexual women.



~~~~~

So, in summary, you cannot provided any examples of JihadJane's allegedly far-right rhetoric.
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Old 9th August 2018, 04:38 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm struggling to understand her beef? Is there another story/article she is responding to?
The fact she's responding via The Spectator is telling....
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Old 9th August 2018, 04:43 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
TBH, I'm more than a little puzzled that you don't get it.

It's not erasing her. It's erasing the fact that she was a lesbian, which what she was famous for being.

The word "lesbian" has been replaced with "gender-nonconforming'.

Question: What's wrong with using the word 'lesbian' to describe a lesbian?

Possible Answer: Transwomen (men) feel excluded by not being able to be lesbians themselves and because lesbians (homosexual women) don't find them (men) sexually attractive = transphobia.
Probably because, if one knows the first thing about Anne Lister, simply saying "famous lesbian" (which is fairly obvious from the full wording on the plaque, anyway) reduces her to nothing more than her sexuality, which is misleading and insulting.
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:57 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
TBH, I'm more than a little puzzled that you don't get it.

It's not erasing her. It's erasing the fact that she was a lesbian, which what she was famous for being.

The word "lesbian" has been replaced with "gender-nonconforming'.

Question: What's wrong with using the word 'lesbian' to describe a lesbian?

Possible Answer: Transwomen (men) feel excluded by not being able to be lesbians themselves and because lesbians (homosexual women) don't find them (men) sexually attractive = transphobia.

Do you have information as to why such wording was on the plaque?
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Old 9th August 2018, 06:13 AM   #749
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All this talk about evil entitled males trying to use corrupt PC culture to invade places they don't belong to abuse the folks who do, reminds me a lot of the kind of scaremongering about Muslims trying to establish shariah law and conquer the West by using PC as a weapon.
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Old 9th August 2018, 06:53 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Probably because, if one knows the first thing about Anne Lister, simply saying "famous lesbian" (which is fairly obvious from the full wording on the plaque, anyway) reduces her to nothing more than her sexuality, which is misleading and insulting.
I'm 6 for one and half a dozen of t'other in this instance. I mean there is no attempt to hide her sexuality, the very plaque is about celebrating her strength of character and fighting the oppressive culture of her times in regards to those who did not conform to very limited cultural roles.

But then her being a lesbian is also important, perhaps they could have gone with "lesbian and non-gender conforming pioneer....".

I don't see any evidence that this was anything to do with erasing lesbians, and I've seen absolutely no evidence to date that anyone is trying to erase lesbians (beyond the usual suspects).
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Old 9th August 2018, 07:32 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Biological sex does not determine mannerisms.
Sex is determined by ones genes. Genes, including those that determine sex, also can and do affect ones behavior to one degree or another. Thus ones "biological sex" is linked, sometimes strongly, with certain kinds of behavior.

Quote:
It's amazing that you can't see how this definition erases what women actually are: Adult human females, i.e. belonging to the sex that can grow babies. Women are not performances. They are neither their (gender-stereotypical) mannerisms nor their (gender-stereotypical?) appearance.
The fact that others don't simply defer to your own private definition of woman is not tantamount to "erasing what women actually are". The only thing that's being "erased" is your overly inflexible and exclusionary definition which is perfectly fine.

Quote:
No, lesbians don't have penises. Lesbians aren't sexually aroused by penises. Lesbians are homosexual women.
Yeah keep saying that mantra over and over again.
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Old 9th August 2018, 08:21 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Clenched fists. Penis as a lethal weapon. Forced oral sex (rape). 'TERF' slur. It's interesting that you find these things innocuous.
You're not even being grossly pedantic correctly; she said choke, not choke to death, so no, no 'lethal weapon' status on their penis. Incorrect.

Few people who aren't trans-exclusionary consider TERF to be a slur rather than a descriptive acronym, even if the R isn't always accurate, as we've already been over in this thread. The tweet would have the exact same spirit if they typed out "Radical feminists who argue that trans women aren't women and should not be allowed in women's spaces" instead of TERF. Correctness dependent on subjective opinion.

"Yeah, you can go choke on a bag of dicks" etc is universally understood as a general '**** off' insult. It's typically meant as 'you can do x for all I care' and more essentially 'I do not care what you think and it would be great if you stopped bothering me.' It does not even actually imply rape; "x can" isn't an imperative or a threat, it denotes that something is possible, allowed or invited. "Participants can email me for more details" is about something participants are invited do, not about something I am going to do to participants. Grammatically incorrect.

Fists posed to display knuckle tattoos don't usually imply violence beyond "look how tough I am to show people eight letters this way," as far as I know. They're not fightin' fists. But they are fists. Technically correct.

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Old 9th August 2018, 08:22 AM   #753
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Wait, what "hard-won rights"
?

Also isn't a sex short-list itself the sexist part?
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Old 10th August 2018, 02:17 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
...snip...

Also isn't a sex short-list itself the sexist part?
The idea is that it is acknowledged that there has been systematic bias against and a lack of opportunity for women to enter politics, especially as MPs. So yes you can view it in a simplistic manner and say it's "sexism", or you can view it as being a step to help redress the past (and obviously sometimes still current ) biases. Those that advocate for such measures state these are temporary measures.

I think both views have some merit.
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Old 10th August 2018, 02:20 AM   #755
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Stonewall outraged by "Women Don't Have Penises" stickers:

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/08/0...don-stonewall/
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Old 10th August 2018, 03:37 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
You're not even being grossly pedantic correctly; she said choke, not choke to death, so no, no 'lethal weapon' status on their penis. Incorrect.
Sophistry. Strangling isn't always fatal either.

Children's toys and other objects often have choking hazard warnings on them. These warnings are there because choking kills. The labels say "Choking Hazard" not "Choking to Death Hazard". That's because most people (except, perhaps, people who think TERF isn't a slur and that women have penises ) know that choking (cutting off one's air supply) is often fatal.

Quote:
Few people who aren't trans-exclusionary consider TERF to be a slur rather than a descriptive acronym, even if the R isn't always accurate, as we've already been over in this thread.
Racists also argue that terms like "Paki" are purely descriptive.

"Trans-exclusionary" is a propaganda term, not a neutral description of reality.

TERF is widely recognised as a slur, because that is what it is. It is not uncommonly prefixed with words like "Smash", "Kill", and "Shut down". Or as a prefix itself: "Die in a fire terf scum."


Quote:
The tweet would have the exact same spirit if they typed out "Radical feminists who argue that trans women aren't women and should not be allowed in women's spaces" instead of TERF. Correctness dependent on subjective opinion.


The acronym TERF is propaganda, narcissistically pushing an aggressive, one-sided "men are women", "we're being excluded", "we're entitled to enter sex-protected spaces" opinion. It is normally uttered with a sneer.

When men enter women's sex-protected spaces, it is women and girls who end up being excluded from these spaces.

You can use the label "gender-critical feminists" if you don't want to be crudely abusive towards people who challenge your beliefs.


Quote:
"Yeah, you can go choke on a bag of dicks" etc is universally understood as a general '**** off' insult. It's typically meant as 'you can do x for all I care' and more essentially 'I do not care what you think and it would be great if you stopped bothering me.' It does not even actually imply rape; "x can" isn't an imperative or a threat, it denotes that something is possible, allowed or invited. "Participants can email me for more details" is about something participants are invited do, not about something I am going to do to participants. Grammatically incorrect.

Fists posed to display knuckle tattoos don't usually imply violence beyond "look how tough I am to show people eight letters this way," as far as I know. They're not fightin' fists. But they are fists. Technically correct.
These fists punch TERFs.

It's interesting how seamlessly transactivist "women" have adopted the culture, language and behaviour of male violence and rape. It's almost as if they are actually unreconstructed, Twenty First Century men, despite outward appearances.

Non-consensual oral sex is rape.

A dictionary definition of 'choke' that is applicable to forcing an erect penis down someone's throat:

choke

verb (used with object)

to stop the breath of by squeezing or obstructing the windpipe; strangle; stifle.
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:04 AM   #757
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Sex is determined by ones genes. Genes, including those that determine sex, also can and do affect ones behavior to one degree or another. Thus ones "biological sex" is linked, sometimes strongly, with certain kinds of behavior.
Please provide some evidence that biology determines gender-stereotypical mannerisms.

Quote:
The fact that others don't simply defer to your own private definition of woman is not tantamount to "erasing what women actually are". The only thing that's being "erased" is your overly inflexible and exclusionary definition which is perfectly fine.
LOL! A somewhat arrogant viewpoint! Defining the word "woman" with reference to their reproductive sex role isn't a "private definition". It's a public and universally accepted, scientific definition. Post-modern, gender-reinforcing wordplay, however, could (and should) more reasonably be considered a private definition! I'd have no problem with it if it was.



Quote:
Yeah keep saying that mantra over and over again.
Saying that lesbians are homosexual women isn't a mantra. It's what the word lesbian actually means.

The burden of persuasion is on those arguing that these lesbian women can have penises.
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:13 AM   #758
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Do you have information as to why such wording was on the plaque?
“The wording was shaped by several open consultations held with York’s LGBT community between July 2017 and February 2018”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...an-anne-lister

I'm assuming the wording was influenced by transgender activist political ideology, which antithetical to the existence of lesbians as homosexual women.

A gender-nonconforming woman can be many things because it only means that you do not conform to societal expectations. It has nothing to do with sexuality.

“Anne Lister was, most definitely, gender-nonconforming all her life. She was also however, a lesbian. That is why she took vows with her girlfriend in that church, because they were in love with each other and wanted to express that same-sex love – the very definition of lesbianism.

“Don’t let them erase this iconic woman from our history. Anne Lister was a lesbian.”



Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks for the context, that helps me understand her article. Strange that she leaves rather than campaigns and fights for what she believes in but each to their own.

Quite sincere question how many trans women have been put up as a candidate on women only list for labour MPs?
I don't know. All Labour's women-only shortlists are open to self-identifying transgender women, a category which includes people who are, in every respect, unaltered, biological men. A number of party members have been suspended for challenging this policy.
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:17 AM   #759
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
“The wording was shaped by several open consultations held with York’s LGBT community between July 2017 and February 2018”
Yeah I see that, so it looks as if we don't have any information that it was chosen to erase lesbians or not from the public awareness. Be interesting to know if they were minuted meetings.
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Old 10th August 2018, 04:28 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
...snip...

The burden of persuasion is on those arguing that these lesbian women can have penises.
I'd rather leave it up to lesbians whether they want to have penises or not, I try to let people decide for themselves what they "are". As a for instance I know a lot of lesbians that have had sex with men, but I would not label them as bisexual I would accept that they still call themselves lesbians. I've known closeted lesbians, ones in a hetrosexual marriage who have regular sex with their husbands but still call themselves lesbians.

If a lesbian wants to have a penis, they can as far as I am concerned. Of course if another lesbian doesn't want to have sex with the lesbian with a penis they don't have to and its no one's business but theirs.

If any one of any gender/sex/nonconforming gender/oranyothelabel tries to force someone to have sex with them by any means they should be dealt with harshly, I do not give one iota what they label themselves or they label other people as that is a total irrelevance.

I have seen and heard too much over the decades of abuse of minorities of all kinds to have any truck with anyone who thinks any kind of abuse is acceptable - no matter what direction.
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