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Old 17th December 2013, 01:53 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I was adopted as a child by two black transgender lesbians. They were abusive throughout my entire childhood. Since being an adult I've tried not being abusive towards people of a different race, gender, gender identity and sexuality to myself, but I find myself panicking if I, for example, see a black person and don't shout the n-word at them. The nights I go out gay-bashing are therapy for me. I can't function unless I do it at least once a week, preferably twice.

I wonder how many A+ers would accept that logic?
They would, probably blaming it on one or more non-disabled white males, probably old. Insidious patriarchy!
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Old 17th December 2013, 07:38 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
What logic? I can certainly imagine a human who 'needs' to harm other humans, and there are a depressingly large number of example of people who have intentionally and repeatedly inflicted suffering on others. I don't think that person's psychological need/desire to inflict harm justifies doing so. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of human needs/desires that justify killing and eating animals.
So it's not the logic itself, it's just the degree to which you apply it.
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Old 17th December 2013, 08:16 AM   #363
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I'm still at a loss for what logic we're talking about. All I see is the moral proposition that human need/desire sometimes justify otherwise objectionable actions. See animal testing or self-defense for other examples.
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Old 17th December 2013, 08:40 AM   #364
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Oh no....PZ's new found animal rights stance is leading him to attack the religion of brown people.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...+Pharyngula%29
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Old 17th December 2013, 09:24 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Oh no....PZ's new found animal rights stance is leading him to attack the religion of brown people.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...+Pharyngula%29
They're going after the brown people at A+ as well. They're trying to at least, if they can ever figure out what to call the thread. It seems there's a problem with the word homosexual, which gives rise to the question as to why they toss around the word homophobia so much if the prefix homo is such a "problem". It looks like they settled on the term non-heterosexual ( big problem because around here heterosexual is a dog whistle for heterophobia ) when the term gay/lesbian sex would have served them just fine.

That FtB thread made me thing of this song for some reason....Cows With Guns.

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Old 17th December 2013, 10:51 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
I'm still at a loss for what logic we're talking about. All I see is the moral proposition that human need/desire sometimes justify otherwise objectionable actions. See animal testing or self-defense for other examples.
I dunno, maybe it is a silly argument. I've had 5 hours sleep since Friday morning, so I'm happy to admit I might not be firing on all cylinders.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:53 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Oh no....PZ's new found animal rights stance is leading him to attack the religion of brown people.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...+Pharyngula%29
What religion is for brown people?


Less that 20% of Muslims are Arabs.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_perce...scent?#slide=2

The implication that there is some special religion just for brown people is demeaning to brown people.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:00 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
What religion is for brown people?


Less that 20% of Muslims are Arabs.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_perce...scent?#slide=2

The implication that there is some special religion just for brown people is demeaning to brown people.
That comes from the idea that most Muslims are brown people and to criticize Islam is to criticize brown people and is, therefore, RACIST !!
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:20 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
That comes from the idea that most Muslims are brown people and to criticize Islam is to criticize brown people and is, therefore, RACIST !!
True, anyone who dares to criticize Islam will quickly be hit over the head with the racism club.
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Old 22nd December 2013, 10:55 AM   #370
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When did PZ become crazy? Is there any chance of him returning to skepticism/science, or is he a lost case?
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Old 22nd December 2013, 01:20 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
When did PZ become crazy?
Probably when he thought that he might have a chance with some of those hot A+ chicks, if he became the uberfeminist, shewoman-manhater.


Silly bastard.
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Old 22nd December 2013, 06:09 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
When did PZ become crazy? Is there any chance of him returning to skepticism/science, or is he a lost case?
He's a biology professor - pretty sure he never left science. Given his poston the subject, I doubt he'll identify with skepticism again anytime soon.

ETA: On the other hand, you might label this recent post as skepticism.
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Last edited by qwints; 22nd December 2013 at 06:26 PM. Reason: ETA: Recent Post
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Old 23rd December 2013, 07:30 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
He's a biology professor - pretty sure he never left science. Given his poston the subject, I doubt he'll identify with skepticism again anytime soon.

ETA: On the other hand, you might label this recent post as skepticism.
He might upset some of his readership with that particular contribution.
It's clearly from someone with some very troubling issues, but I'm sure there'll be a few on there who identify with it.
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Old 23rd December 2013, 08:40 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
He [PZ] might upset some of his readership with that particular contribution.
It's clearly from someone with some very troubling issues, but I'm sure there'll be a few on there who identify with it.
PZ's tickling the third rail. His readership might now be privately discussing "what to do about the PZ problem."

All intercourse is rape? That's what she said.

PZ risks falling on the wrong side of the "you are either with us, or against us" dichotomy: the misogynist's side. By indicating there are some insane positions from the feminist side, he risks being dumped entirely from their cult. Think of the reaction if Dawkins, Lindsay, or Shermer had written it, and how feminists avoid it like a third rail.
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Old 23rd December 2013, 11:27 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
He's a biology professor - pretty sure he never left science. Given his poston the subject, I doubt he'll identify with skepticism again anytime soon.
Heh. I liked that talk by Jamy Smith. Well, it got slightly angry and repetitive near the end, but overall I liked it. It's not surprising PZ hates hearing the definition of "skepticism" emphasized so emphatically, given how he feels about the definition of "atheism" being pointed out. It seems he is frustrated that the terms skepticism and atheism are too inclusive.


Originally Posted by Mr. Scott View Post
PZ's tickling the third rail. His readership might now be privately discussing "what to do about the PZ problem."

All intercourse is rape? That's what she said.

PZ risks falling on the wrong side of the "you are either with us, or against us" dichotomy: the misogynist's side. By indicating there are some insane positions from the feminist side, he risks being dumped entirely from their cult. Think of the reaction if Dawkins, Lindsay, or Shermer had written it, and how feminists avoid it like a third rail.
I don't think I've seen any radfems among the pharyngula/A+ crowd. I've only seen the two groups in conflict and that was over the issue of transgendereds/transexuals who radfems hate. A radfem of the man-hating, trans-hating variety (yes they do actually exist and openly admit to these hatreds--not a charicature) would never be a PZ fan in the first place.

Then again, it does sound like PZ is violating the SJWfem "listen to the women" rule (not that they've ever applied it fairly or consistently).
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Old 24th December 2013, 05:31 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
He's a biology professor - pretty sure he never left science...
I'm guessing you don't know many academics.
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Old 27th December 2013, 09:23 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
That comes from the idea that most Muslims are brown people and to criticize Islam is to criticize brown people and is, therefore, RACIST !!
I'm going to have to eat that statement as it looks like winds of change are blowing through A+

Poster Exi5estentialist, the guy who used to have a Muslim banner in his sig line, has mounted a "welcome Muslims to A+" campaign and is getting soundly spanked for his efforts. Seems they don't want to entertain theistic arguments even if they do come from the religion of brown people.

Weird

What happened ?

See their threads

Welcoming Muslims to Atheism Plus
University Challenges
Gay American Imam
Islamophobia and Homophobia: Connections
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Old 27th December 2013, 09:28 AM   #378
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I was about to comment on that. Some of the threads are basically three people arguing. A lot of activity, but I didn't see the old guard weighing in with the Official A+ answer.
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Old 27th December 2013, 09:42 AM   #379
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Oh hey, I figured you guys would be eating popcorn.

I think this conversation would be going very differently if ceepolk were still around.

Do note, since a lot of you have been pretty categorical in your contempt for all A-plussers, that I am not the only one trying to be reasonable.
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Old 27th December 2013, 10:44 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Amadanb View Post
Oh hey, I figured you guys would be eating popcorn.

I think this conversation would be going very differently if ceepolk were still around.

Do note, since a lot of you have been pretty categorical in your contempt for all A-plussers, that I am not the only one trying to be reasonable.
I was just waiting for a second mod to show up on one of the threads before commenting because ( no doubt ) the issue is being discussed in the mod area in order to determine the direction the mod team will go on this. I don't doubt that were ceepolk holding the reigns the outcome would have been quite different, a lot of "heavy lifting" would have been done.

The contempt hasn't usually been directed at all Aplussers, it's mostly been directed at the moderating style that allowed the high degree of crazy to dictate what was considered acceptable thought.

The voice(s) of reason were quickly shut down, not just by ceepolk but by the entire mod team which created a forum culture that was the antithesis of skeptical thinking/critical thought. The reasonable Aplussers didn't stand a chance in that environment.
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Old 27th December 2013, 12:46 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
The voice(s) of reason were quickly shut down, not just by ceepolk but by the entire mod team which created a forum culture that was the antithesis of skeptical thinking/critical thought. The reasonable Aplussers didn't stand a chance in that environment.


In my opinion, most of the mod team is actually fairly reasonable, even if I don't agree with them about everything, though they are quick to be swayed/guilted by anyone who cries the right buzzwords. I actually associate the majority of the problems the A+ forum had/has with ceepolk and a few others, ceepolk being the biggest problem because she was a mod.
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Old 29th December 2013, 09:57 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Amadanb View Post
Oh hey, I figured you guys would be eating popcorn.

I think this conversation would be going very differently if ceepolk were still around.

Do note, since a lot of you have been pretty categorical in your contempt for all A-plussers, that I am not the only one trying to be reasonable.
The conversation would not be going differently - it would have been shut down. But, really, other than the shutting down, aren't we seeing the same thing. Exi5tentialist is allowed to start numerous threads on the same subject, a subject zep's entirely ignorant of other than "well, I done got me some prejudice directed at me". If A+ was true to its own directives, Exi5 would've been shut down a week ago. "Bigotry is bad. We get it. Shut up because any form of theism is counter to our purpose. If you want to discuss brown-skinned oppression, where do we sign up. If you want us all to line up behind religious folks, no. Bah Bye."

I'd love to see how they'd respond to someone posting the same sort of concept about the mis-treated and maligned Sephardic Jews. Or Coptic Christians. Exi5 has a strange bug up the butt and should be given the standard JREFF bum's rush "Look this ain't the forum for that kind of mission statement. Go start your own if that's your primary goal."

Originally Posted by Amadanb View Post
In my opinion, most of the mod team is actually fairly reasonable, even if I don't agree with them about everything, though they are quick to be swayed/guilted by anyone who cries the right buzzwords. I actually associate the majority of the problems the A+ forum had/has with ceepolk and a few others, ceepolk being the biggest problem because she was a mod.
I think it's easy to point at Ceepolk, but there are the layabouts who are supposed to be GAs who did nothing and gave Cee that free rein. And I've seen SubMor stifle arguments with similar arguments to Cee's. Plus, Ischemgeek is doing a pretty good Ceepolk imitation half the time, although I have to say that's improved a tad.
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Old 29th December 2013, 10:27 AM   #383
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It was more than just a few people though, it was the majority of posters that determined the culture of the forum and the mods went along with it. We can go back a year and bring up the backpackergirl thread for ambiance because it was one of the few extremist threads from that era that survived the delete button. That was A+ culture being created and it's a culture that remains to this day. There's just less of it as most of the posters who created that culture have wandered off.

I'll agree that ceepolk is responsible for the low population over there.

As a more recent for instance, take rickymonstoon's thread, Disappointed ( Shermer ) and his suspension for daring to suggest Shermer might be innocent. That wasn't ceepolk who gave the suspension to someone who stated that "we' don't have enough information on this topic to come to any meaningful conclusions as to Shermer's guilt or innocence. Ricky was censored simply for going against the prevailing culture.

Now, with this guy exi5, that culture is being turned upside down. Submor is trying to uphold it, I think, it's kind of hard to figure out what he's saying. It looks like he's trying to play the racism card but realizes that would be stupid so is opting to go the privilege route in order to avoid saying it directly.

Ummm yea, the British Born Muslims study. That's an interesting one. Done by four people, independent of any official polling outfit and, relevant to the A+ thread, shows the opposite of Muslim attitudes to homosexuality as a Guardian article published months earlier in the same year, 2009. In fact, the independent study shows Muslims as being so progressive it undermines it's own credibility.

For instance, the question "In your opinion, which country is the biggest threat to world security ?" nobody said Israel ? Come on.

or

Only 1% of respondents thought The Guardian was "deliberately biased against Muslims" when that same paper had just called the all homophobes months earlier.

or

"Do you believe 9/11 was a conspiracy against Islam / Muslims ?" 53% said yes. Does this mean that 53% of British born Muslims are truthers ?

I highly suspect that poll was never done and that document was created by one person and blogged to be cited as "evidence" that Muslims are awesome.

Now, this Exi5 guy is trying to tone police as well as dismiss the lived experiences of an ex-Muslim woman who called Islam misogynist therefore going against a culture that he helped create.

Weird.
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Old 29th December 2013, 10:28 AM   #384
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I don't disagree about Exi5stentialist, obviously. I have not been so aggravated by anyone on the A+ boards since Setar was the reigning drama queen. The only reason he's getting away with his nonsense is that he's cynically and manipulatively tied his little crusade into his identity as a gay man, so he can launch accusations of homophobia against people who argue with him.

As for the mods, I get the impression most of them are inactive. I am generally okay with SubMor - he falls for some logical fallacies, but he chides more than he bans. I am wary in dealing with Ischemgeek, but haven't had any personal problems with her modding. For me the biggest problem with the mods is that they bend over backwards to avoid being "-ist" to anyone, which the most manipulative and narcissistic members use shamelessly to try to make the forum a "safe space" for them.
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Old 29th December 2013, 10:33 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Ummm yea, the British Born Muslims study. That's an interesting one. Done by four people, independent of any official polling outfit and, relevant to the A+ thread, shows the opposite of Muslim attitudes to homosexuality as a Guardian article published months earlier in the same year, 2009. In fact, the independent study shows Muslims as being so progressive it undermines it's own credibility.

Yeah, I posted some contradictory polls - funny, Exi5 never responded to that.

The biggest red flags for me about that poll were the 99% answers. Uh, I don't think you could get 99% of any statistically significant population to agree that killing and eating your grandmother is immoral. If I see 99% agreement on any remotely controversial question on a poll, I am 99% certain that poll can't be trusted.
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Old 31st December 2013, 04:54 AM   #386
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Just the title of this Pharyngula blogpost shows that he doesn't understand what atheism is: Maybe this will finally drive the libertarians out of atheism
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Old 31st December 2013, 01:46 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Amadanb View Post
In my opinion, most of the mod team is actually fairly reasonable, even if I don't agree with them about everything, though they are quick to be swayed/guilted by anyone who cries the right buzzwords. I actually associate the majority of the problems the A+ forum had/has with ceepolk and a few others, ceepolk being the biggest problem because she was a mod.
Got to disagree. It was the larger culture, as supported tacitly or explicitly by the majority of mods and regular posters. A lone poster, mod or not, can only do damage when their behavior is accepted. maiforpeace, for example, was a mod but lost favor. Also there is the secret private forum which may have contributed to clichishness and favoring certain posters (Laughing Coyote??) over others.


Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Just the title of this Pharyngula blogpost shows that he doesn't understand what atheism is: Maybe this will finally drive the libertarians out of atheism
Nor libertarianism for that matter.
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Old 3rd January 2014, 02:37 AM   #388
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so now PZ says you cant be a libertarian and an atheist?

No wonder he wants atheism to be some sort of movement or exclusionary group - he thinks he's a leader!
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Old 3rd January 2014, 01:13 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
so now PZ says you cant be a libertarian and an atheist?

No wonder he wants atheism to be some sort of movement or exclusionary group - he thinks he's a leader!
PZ Myers: Het there libertarian atheist! There is not profit in atheism!

Libertarian atheist: Oh really? Hmm, maybe there is something to the first-cause argument then...



And how do you "drive someone out" of atheism in the first place?
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Old 3rd January 2014, 02:33 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
And how do you "drive someone out" of atheism in the first place?
You start by challenging the notion that atheism actually means what it means (e.g. PZ's "I really hate those 'dictionary atheists'!"). Perhaps you define it something more like "organized atheism" / "atheist activism" / "the atheist movement". Then you try to set the parameters of acceptable social and political belief within such organizations and attempt to get people within them deemed to be opposition fired, blacklisted, shunned or whatever. Justin Vacula, Abbie Smith, DJ Groethe, Thunderfoot, Dawkins, etc.

The funny thing is that the vast majority of atheists have nothing to do with the conference world or organized activism and probably couldn't care less about atheist "leadership".
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Old 3rd January 2014, 02:36 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
And how do you "drive someone out" of atheism in the first place?
You make them believe in god.
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Old 3rd January 2014, 02:46 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
You start by challenging the notion that atheism actually means what it means (e.g. PZ's "I really hate those 'dictionary atheists'!"). Perhaps you define it something more like "organized atheism" / "atheist activism" / "the atheist movement". Then you try to set the parameters of acceptable social and political belief within such organizations and attempt to get people within them deemed to be opposition fired, blacklisted, shunned or whatever. Justin Vacula, Abbie Smith, DJ Groethe, Thunderfoot, Dawkins, etc.

The funny thing is that the vast majority of atheists have nothing to do with the conference world or organized activism and probably couldn't care less about atheist "leadership".
He clearly wants atheism to be a left-wing political movement, rather than a philosophical position on one issue. But it will never work. He should save himself the trouble and actually join existing political movements championing his political views rather than trying to hijack atheism for that purpose.
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Old 3rd January 2014, 03:21 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
He clearly wants atheism to be a left-wing political movement, rather than a philosophical position on one issue. But it will never work. He should save himself the trouble and actually join existing political movements championing his political views rather than trying to hijack atheism for that purpose.
I think he was reinventing Kurtz' Secular Humanism; not sure why he didn't just join CSH.
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Old 3rd January 2014, 03:35 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think he was reinventing Kurtz' Secular Humanism; not sure why he didn't just join CSH.
Because he would not automatically become the leader?

Kurtz also took a milder approach to religion that Myers or the "new atheists" take.
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Old 3rd January 2014, 04:14 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Because he would not automatically become the leader?
Possibly. Or he may be hostile to the entire concept of formal structured organizations per se. I just don't know.




Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Kurtz also took a milder approach to religion that Myers or the "new atheists" take.
I'm not sure I can agree to that last bit... Kurtz changed his position over time (as part of a power play within CSH), but he was very, very hostile to religion earlier in his career.

He and Maddie O'Hair seemed to be trying to outdo each other.

That was one of the reasons many skeptical organizations (including BCSkeptics) started distancing themselves from CSH/CFI - he was heavily fixated on a religion hate-on at the expense of other paranormal topics and it was getting embarassing.

But as you point out, he reversed course dramatically once he lost control of CSH... but that's maybe my point... CSH/CFI/CSI had become pretty hostile to religion when PZ was getting involved in skepticism, so it still seems like a good fit that he nevertheless ignored.
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Old 6th January 2014, 01:55 PM   #396
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NECSS VI just announced Lawrence Krauss as the keynote speaker in April.

If you listen very carefully, you'll hear the sounds of A-Plusser heads exploding.
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Old 6th January 2014, 03:29 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
NECSS VI just announced Lawrence Krauss as the keynote speaker in April.

If you listen very carefully, you'll hear the sounds of A-Plusser heads exploding.
What can be done about the Lawrence Krauss problem???
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Old 6th January 2014, 03:46 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Mr. Scott View Post
What can be done about the Lawrence Krauss problem???
What I find funny is the enemies of A+ (Shermer, Krauss, DJ, etc) are still being invited to speak, while their hero PZ has pretty much disappeared from the conference circuit.
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Old 6th January 2014, 03:58 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
NECSS VI just announced Lawrence Krauss as the keynote speaker in April.

If you listen very carefully, you'll hear the sounds of A-Plusser heads exploding.
Speaking of things that are likely to make A-Plusser heads explode:

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Old 7th January 2014, 06:30 AM   #400
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It's interesting - PZ was once sane. It just goes to show that absolute power something or other.....
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