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Old 11th December 2013, 06:13 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Well, credit where credit's due. I have to applaud him for that.



What a bizarre statement. Morals claims aren't scientific. Unless you buy into Sam Harris' conception of them (in which case most meat eating is definitely immoral).



That's pleasantly surprising. I'd have thought they'd be whining about him triggering their eating disorders or something.
Let's see what the A+ers do. They bum-rushed one of our regulars because of daring to propose they even THINK ABOUT MAYBE PURSUING a vegan lifestyle.

I'm dying to see what sort of 180 Kassiane and Ko. do on this one. If it was anyone else but St. Peezer, I'd say they go into "we close the iron door" mode, but... but... but... it's the Grand Rabbi of Rabble Rousers, Himself (hallowed be his name).

What are the bets? They just ignore this? Or some unsuspecting individual starts a thread in support of PZ and they beat him/her black-and-blue (figuratively, of course)? Or they just rally behind PZ and "erase" Kasiane?
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Old 11th December 2013, 06:33 AM   #282
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Surely claiming vegetarianism as a moral stance makes far more sense than claiming it as a scientific stance would? I mean there are arguments to be made about inefficient use of arable land, deforestation, methane production, etc. I would say that those tend to be more in the way of post-hoc rationalisations than actual reasons for turning vegetarian for most people.

I'm sure there are plenty of things Myers can be criticised for, but presenting a decision he made on moral grounds as a moral decision? Seems reasonable to me.
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Old 11th December 2013, 06:38 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Well, credit where credit's due. I have to applaud him for that.



What a bizarre statement. Morals claims aren't scientific. Unless you buy into Sam Harris' conception of them (in which case most meat eating is definitely immoral).



That's pleasantly surprising. I'd have thought they'd be whining about him triggering their eating disorders or something.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Surely claiming vegetarianism as a moral stance makes far more sense than claiming it as a scientific stance would? I mean there are arguments to be made about inefficient use of arable land, deforestation, methane production, etc. I would say that those tend to be more in the way of post-hoc rationalisations than actual reasons for turning vegetarian for most people.

I'm sure there are plenty of things Myers can be criticised for, but presenting a decision he made on moral grounds as a moral decision? Seems reasonable to me.
So PZ the grey has become PZ the White?
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Old 11th December 2013, 06:47 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Let's see what the A+ers do. They bum-rushed one of our regulars because of daring to propose they even THINK ABOUT MAYBE PURSUING a vegan lifestyle.

I'm dying to see what sort of 180 Kassiane and Ko. do on this one. If it was anyone else but St. Peezer, I'd say they go into "we close the iron door" mode, but... but... but... it's the Grand Rabbi of Rabble Rousers, Himself (hallowed be his name).

What are the bets? They just ignore this? Or some unsuspecting individual starts a thread in support of PZ and they beat him/her black-and-blue (figuratively, of course)? Or they just rally behind PZ and "erase" Kasiane?
I'm betting on ignoring the whole thing like it never happened.


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Old 11th December 2013, 07:02 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
So PZ the grey has become PZ the White?
I don't know what this means (aside from the fact that it's a LOTR reference).
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:40 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
I don't know what this means (aside from the fact that it's a LOTR reference).
PZ, the devil incarnate, suddenly becomes the voice of sweet reason when he says something you agree with.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:45 AM   #287
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I personally don't think it's immoral to eat meat and I wouldn't judge someones morality based on diet.

I'm with tsig on this one. And why announce it on his science blog as such? There's nothing worse than getting on your high horse and claiming to be morally superior than the rest. Especially considering some of his actions over the last year.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:50 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
PZ, the devil incarnate, suddenly becomes the voice of sweet reason when he says something you agree with.
Don't agree with this part. It's not really an argument. Seems a bit aggressive. the gray wizard was good as I recall, not the devil incarnate.
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Old 11th December 2013, 08:25 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
Don't agree with this part. It's not really an argument. Seems a bit aggressive. the gray wizard was good as I recall, not the devil incarnate.
True, It was a bit over the top.
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Old 11th December 2013, 08:25 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
And why announce it on his science blog as such?
Have you ever read the blog? It's not exactly biology-centric.
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Old 11th December 2013, 08:46 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by qwints View Post
Have you ever read the blog? It's not exactly biology-centric.
That's true. It used to be more bio-centric but that changed somewhere around a year and change ago and I still read it for a while, but finally dropped it and dropped PZ from my FB friends.
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Old 11th December 2013, 08:52 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
PZ, the devil incarnate, suddenly becomes the voice of sweet reason when he says something you agree with.
A less silly way to look at it would be that people who base their opinions on reason, rather than demonising people, will happily say when someone who they generally don't agree with says something that seems to them to be reasonable.

Or, in my case, I'm happy to point out fallacious reasoning, regardless of who is using that reasoning or who that reasoning is being directed against. This is because I'm not a 5 year old who feels they are on a "side" they have to rabidly defend, but instead an adult who is their own person and whose opinions are their own.
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Old 11th December 2013, 08:54 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
I personally don't think it's immoral to eat meat and I wouldn't judge someones morality based on diet.
Same here. That doesn't make it silly to present it as an argument of morality, rather than an argument based in science.
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Old 11th December 2013, 09:07 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
A less silly way to look at it would be that people who base their opinions on reason, rather than demonising people, will happily say when someone who they generally don't agree with says something that seems to them to be reasonable.

Or, in my case, I'm happy to point out fallacious reasoning, regardless of who is using that reasoning or who that reasoning is being directed against. This is because I'm not a 5 year old who feels they are on a "side" they have to rabidly defend, but instead an adult who is their own person and whose opinions are their own.
Yep, the best defense is still a good offense.

I'm glad you're an adult, for most of us it's apparent in our posts and we feel no need to proclaim it.
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Old 11th December 2013, 09:49 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim
I'm not a 5 year old who feels they are on a "side" they have to rabidly defend
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I'm glad you're an adult, for most of us it's apparent in our posts and we feel no need to proclaim it.
I took Squeegee Beckenheim's remark as more of a comment about others acting like 5 year olds than about himself.
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Old 11th December 2013, 10:58 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post

Note that I say "bias". I do not agree that this is racism or reverse racism. White people erroneously calling out other white people as racists is just a good example of being dense, not an example of self-hatred or being racists, themselves, IMHO. It's yet another example of why these folk shouldn't even earn the cub scout Social Justice merit badge, much less be the self-appointed standard bearers for Atheism Plus Social Justice.
The chemgeek was most definitely being racist by making up the race of the bullies and "calling them out"

Based on nothing but a gut feeling, she placed black people on a pedestal by refusing to even consider that the teasers might be PoC themselves. Black people were fetishized, idealized and basically stripped of their humanity by the refusal to consider that they aren't behaving in the manner that the very narrow social justice viewpoint demands of them.

Painting the bullies as white, well, that's to be expected from SJWs no ? Anybody does anything "bad" and white is the automatic default.

Here's an example from yesterday, on the whining bitching moaning complaining thread.

Originally Posted by AlexSenachi
Interlocutor from previous comment has now informed me that I make them (I bet it's a heterocis white him, but I don't know for sure anything except that they're Greek Catholic) proud to be a difference feminist. I don't even.
There we have it. Not only white but everything Alex isn't.

Why...it's almost like they hate white people over there at A+.

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Old 11th December 2013, 10:59 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
PZ, the devil incarnate, suddenly becomes the voice of sweet reason when he says something you agree with.
I will criticize PZ when he does or says things that I find objectionable and I will praise him when he says or does things that I find praise-worthy... Your implication that it is a bad thing to do is frightening. I mean, naturally humans will tend to be biased toward criticizing someone they already don't like / praising someone they already like, but it's pretty rare to hear someone actually suggest that deviations from these biases should be avoided.

Also, in case it's not clear, I didn't say anything about PZ's overall character or his reasoning abilities in that post.

Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
There's nothing worse than getting on your high horse and claiming to be morally superior than the rest. Especially considering some of his actions over the last year.
Where is it that he claimed to be morally superior to the rest in that post?

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Old 11th December 2013, 11:03 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Where is it that he claimed to be morally superior to the rest in that post?
Saying that it's brutal and cruel, so he's stopped.
That suggests that those still indulging in that behaviour are...
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Old 11th December 2013, 01:06 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The thing is... they weren't remotely familiar with the facts. The first person I know of who went to the trouble to find out what the school make-up was like, was me. They just jumped in with both boots (or maybe fashionable Earth Shoes made from renewable resources) and started crying "Racism!" because it's what they do. Qwints and somethingcrumpet pointed out or at least questioned that it might simply be a typical authoritarian school policy issue, to their credit. But if you look at Qwints' new thread, the first couple of comments seemed to be at least pointing towards mea culpa, but now they're starting to justify their own bias.
I didn't take long. Within a few posts it was once again okay to assume that the bullies were of a specific race, which IMO is racist, regardless of how fast and high they wave the demographics card.

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It's yet another example of why these folk shouldn't even earn the cub scout Social Justice merit badge, much less be the self-appointed standard bearers for Atheism Plus Social Justice.
Agreed.

BTW, your post a couple of posts below the one quoted above (#275) is excellent.
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Old 11th December 2013, 01:29 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Yep, the best defense is still a good offense.

I'm glad you're an adult, for most of us it's apparent in our posts and we feel no need to proclaim it.
I think I'll just let this post stand on its own merits.
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Old 11th December 2013, 01:44 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Saying that it's brutal and cruel, so he's stopped.
That suggests that those still indulging in that behaviour are...
Saying "something's cruel so I stopped" is not the same as saying "I am morally superior", nor does it even strongly imply it. It might imply superiority with respect to one of many types of behavior (e.g. I could proclaim that I think lying is bad and be more honest than most other people while at the same time robbing houses). But so what?

What you're suggesting (the implication of which seems to be that no one should express moral opinions for fear of hurting someone's feelings) is crazy.
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Old 11th December 2013, 03:30 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think I'll just let this post stand on its own merits.
I think that's probably best. We don't want to get in trouble for personalising the argument, do we?
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Old 11th December 2013, 06:50 PM   #303
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The call of veganism summons me!

Lot of problems from such a small post. First of all relying on reactions of distaste is poor judgment. I would be disgusted by pictures of war or surgery. Does that make those immoral?

The way science can be involved is if you had the value that, say, environmental damage was immoral. Scientifically we can study the effects of animal use on the environment. If we find damage, it links to our earlier value and we can call it immoral. Science can also be used to debunk myths like "you need to eat meat to be healthy" or "vegan diets are too expensive".

It looks like he is reacting to "holier than thou" and "its too expensive you privileged bastard" complaints in the comments.
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Old 11th December 2013, 06:56 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Looks like PZ has decided that types of food are immoral.

2013
I’m cured, no more meat

Ethics, Personal

by PZ Myers

My wife is a vegetarian, and I’ve mostly cut meat out of my diet, too — I’ll indulge a bit when I travel, but that’s about it. But I’m done now. It makes no sense: it’s not sustainable or economical, but worse, it’s brutal and cruel. Rolling Stone has just published a remarkable expose of Big Meat, the factory farms that abuse animals.

I made the mistake of watching the videos, too. Fortunately, my dinner had been vegetarian already, or I might have lost it. So be warned.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/


I wonder if he'll discover the wonders of a "cleansing" diet next.

I'm sure that as a scientist he'll have the scientific justification for declaring eating meat immoral.

The commenters cannot gush enough.

ETA: Maybe his wife told him "vegetarianism or celibacy".
As an interesting note, apparently the followers were in the lead on this. Or it may be a new SJ trend with the plussers and they're getting ready to go all PETA on us. There's a thread on the A+ forums from before PZers blog post and we have Protein Pal actually sounding reasonable in it. How different from, what was it - a year ago? When they rode (I think it was) Tsukasa B out of town on a rail. We even have "Don't Erase Me" sounding almost thoughtful in that thread.

And apparently Greta had a month-long try-out and is now thinking about whether she can still qualify fish (or maybe just shellfish) as vegan or at least "not meat". That was about a month ago, and I wonder what Cephalopod Guy would think about her giving higher intelligence to a chicken over an octopus. I'd personally take the octopus and bet the over in a one-on-one IQ test.
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Old 11th December 2013, 07:05 PM   #305
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Something wrong with the software or my laptop? Anyone else having poblems using the quote or reply features? Probably just me.

One positive thing I can attribute to A+ is the stimulating discussion it has engendered here. Kudo's to all for an interesting read. And that definitely includes you, Quints, even though you are a far better spokesman for A+ than they deserve.

Impressed by some of your replies on the cart thread I started there way back, I decided to find out more about you. You looked like a bright young guy, and you are, so sometimes you can judge a book by it's cover.

For a great read on the issue of race and the history of this outdated concept, I highly recommend Milford Wolpoff's Race and Human Evolution.
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Old 12th December 2013, 03:49 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
For a great read on the issue of race and the history of this outdated concept, I highly recommend Milford Wolpoff's Race and Human Evolution.
This might be more suited to Vortigen's thread in "Social Issues". I'm sure he'd appreciate some support for his position.
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Old 12th December 2013, 10:42 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Saying "something's cruel so I stopped" is not the same as saying "I am morally superior", nor does it even strongly imply it. It might imply superiority with respect to one of many types of behavior (e.g. I could proclaim that I think lying is bad and be more honest than most other people while at the same time robbing houses). But so what?

What you're suggesting (the implication of which seems to be that no one should express moral opinions for fear of hurting someone's feelings) is crazy.
You might be right if that was the only area of morality which PZ Myers has touched upon, but I think that we all know that isn't the case.
Saying that he's cured clearly implies that there's something wrong with meat eaters, too.

I don't care if people say things which hurt other people's feelings, by the way.
If somebody believes that that they're acting in a morally superior fashion to others and they can justify that in a logical fashion, then by all means they should go ahead and do so.
If it influences people to think about their choices, then that's fine, isn't it?
Just don't moan if people call you on it.
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Old 12th December 2013, 10:57 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
You might be right if that was the only area of morality which PZ Myers has touched upon, but I think that we all know that isn't the case.
Saying that he's cured clearly implies that there's something wrong with meat eaters, too.
I took it as a pun. But even if it implies that, so? When we promote ideas, we are almost always implying that there's something wrong with the alternative. Whether we are promoting skepticism in general, arguing against circumcision for girls and/or boys, advocating for condom distribution in Africa, or whatever it may be.

Quote:
I don't care if people say things which hurt other people's feelings, by the way.
If somebody believes that that they're acting in a morally superior fashion to others and they can justify that in a logical fashion, then by all means they should go ahead and do so.
If it influences people to think about their choices, then that's fine, isn't it?
Just don't moan if people call you on it.
If it's fine then why would one be "called on it"?
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Old 12th December 2013, 11:05 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
I took it as a pun. But even if it implies that, so? When we promote ideas, we are almost always implying that there's something wrong with the alternative. Whether we are promoting skepticism in general, arguing against circumcision for girls and/or boys, advocating for condom distribution in Africa, or whatever it may be.
Pretty sure I answered that with the next part that you quoted.

Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
If it's fine then why would one be "called on it"?
Because some people won't agree with you and they'll point that out.
Myers chose to then pretend that he hadn't made any sort of moral statement or judgement and went on the defensive, rather unsurprisingly.
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Old 12th December 2013, 11:18 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Pretty sure I answered that with the next part that you quoted.



Because some people won't agree with you and they'll point that out.
Myers chose to then pretend that he hadn't made any sort of moral statement or judgement and went on the defensive, rather unsurprisingly.
Which points up his most aggravating trait, his presumption that he's not only right but that all who disagree are not only wrong but somehow morally inferior.

.
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Old 12th December 2013, 12:50 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Because some people won't agree with you and they'll point that out.
I haven't objected to anyone saying "I disagree with PZ's opinion because _____" or "PZ is wrong because _______" or "PZ's reasoning is bad because _____".

The sentiments I've dismissed as crazy are "PZ shouldn't express that opinion" or "PZ is pompous/arrogant for expressing that opinion". The implication of these types of reactions is that people should not express moral opinions. That is a very harmful message and one I'm skeptical that people would actually express when confronted with moral opinions that they agree with.

Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Which points up his most aggravating trait, his presumption that he's not only right but that all who disagree are not only wrong but somehow morally inferior.
I don't understand what you're basing this on(?)

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Old 12th December 2013, 01:17 PM   #312
tsig
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
I haven't objected to anyone saying "I disagree with PZ's opinion because _____" or "PZ is wrong because _______" or "PZ's reasoning is bad because _____".

The sentiments I've dismissed as crazy are "PZ shouldn't express that opinion" or "PZ is pompous/arrogant for expressing that opinion". The implication of these types of reactions is that people should not express moral opinions. That is a very harmful message and one I'm skeptical that people would actually express when confronted with moral opinions that they agree with.



I don't understand what you're basing this on(?)
Five years of reading Pharyngula.
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Old 12th December 2013, 05:22 PM   #313
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Found an interesting blog amongst the comments that is linked back to A+. Researching...
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Old 12th December 2013, 06:44 PM   #314
Edx
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
So PZ the grey has become PZ the White?

PZ, the devil incarnate, suddenly becomes the voice of sweet reason when he says something you agree with.
I wonder if this is an insight into how you see the world. ie. literally black and white.
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Old 13th December 2013, 11:36 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
I haven't objected to anyone saying "I disagree with PZ's opinion because _____" or "PZ is wrong because _______" or "PZ's reasoning is bad because _____".

The sentiments I've dismissed as crazy are "PZ shouldn't express that opinion" or "PZ is pompous/arrogant for expressing that opinion". The implication of these types of reactions is that people should not express moral opinions. That is a very harmful message and one I'm skeptical that people would actually express when confronted with moral opinions that they agree with.
Nobody has said that he shouldn't voice his opinion.
The only person that's suggesting that people shouldn't say what they've been saying is you, in fact.
You're reading things into comments that simply aren't there.
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Old 13th December 2013, 01:44 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Nobody has said that he shouldn't voice his opinion.
At least one person has implied that he shouldn't have expressed that opinion on his blog. But now if you'll look at the full sentence of what you're responding to, what I said was: "The sentiments I've dismissed as crazy are "PZ shouldn't express that opinion" or "PZ is pompous/arrogant for expressing that opinion"."

(bolding added)

The idea that expressing moral opinions makes one arrogant or pompous or that expressing moral opinions is the same as proclaiming oneself to be morally superior to others is extremely wrongheaded. Yes, people have been saying this. And like I've said I'm highly skeptical anyone who says this would actually react the same way when confronted with someone expressing a moral opinion that they happen to agree with.

Quote:
The only person that's suggesting that people shouldn't say what they've been saying is you, in fact.
I haven't been doing this to my knowledge. I've been suggesting that some of the things people have been writing, through strong implication or otherwise, are (in my mind) very obviously incorrect (e.g. that one shouldn't state moral opinions without scientific evidence, that expressing a moral opinion is akin to proclaiming oneself to be superior, that expressing moral opinions is arrogant/conceited/insensitive, that one should appraise the writings of others based on who they are rather than on the actual merits of the content...).

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Old 13th December 2013, 02:05 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Edx View Post
I wonder if this is an insight into how you see the world. ie. literally black and white.
It's a Lord of the Rings comment, not a treatise on how tsig thinks the world is run. You really do just look for things to jump on people for don't you? It's like a mirror image of A+.



As for the PZ not eating meat thing, I don't get it. I can understand (although I disagree with) those who claim all meat production and killing for food is immoral. I understand those who say they do not like the taste of meat, or do not wish to eat it for personal dietary reasons. I even understand people who don't eat it for religious reasons, odd as those seem to me.

What I can't understand is this bizarre exclusion of the middle.

"Factory farms are evil!"

"Well, I'm not a fan either that's-"

"So now I don't eat meat!"

"Well, ok but what about NON factory farms? The ones that rear their livestock well, slaughter them humanely and aren't just out to make a buck without considering the welfare of the animal?"

"Those aren't evil."

"So why are you swearing off all meat?"

"Factory farms are evil!"



As someone who now works as a plucker for a local medium sized ethical farm, I have no qualms about what I do or what they do. The 600 odd turkeys we're killing plucking and dressing have been cared for, fed properly, received veterinary care, are properly free range, not just a slightly bigger cage, aren't pumped full of growth hormones or force fed, and they are stunned before killing. There is a great variation in the size of the birds I've been dealing with, rather than having any kind of imposed uniformity either so they are pretty naturally reared.

A lot of the meat from them or the whole birds themselves are sold through the farm shop, or through the farmers market stalls they regularly go to. The rest seems to be traded between local farms for them to sell and in return the farm I work for purchases products like cheese, or home made pies and the like to sell on.

I can't think of a way that the farm could be more humane in its practices, and since we buy a lot of our meat from them, or other local companies like them, I'm fine continuing to eat meat.
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Old 13th December 2013, 02:09 PM   #318
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I enjoyed this debate on the issue. It starts from the premise that factory farms are evil, and (mostly) sticks to debating consuming ethically raised meat animals. Biggest problem is the main points hinge on studies whose validity isn't adequately discussed.
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Old 13th December 2013, 02:18 PM   #319
tsig
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Originally Posted by Edx View Post
I wonder if this is an insight into how you see the world. ie. literally black and white.
If you can determine how I see the world by reading one post on the internet you're wasting your time posting here, the world awaits.
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Old 13th December 2013, 02:50 PM   #320
Meed
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
What I can't understand is this bizarre exclusion of the middle.

"Factory farms are evil!"

"Well, I'm not a fan either that's-"

"So now I don't eat meat!"

"Well, ok but what about NON factory farms? The ones that rear their livestock well, slaughter them humanely and aren't just out to make a buck without considering the welfare of the animal?"

"Those aren't evil."

"So why are you swearing off all meat?"

"Factory farms are evil!"
Is this a conversation that's actually ever happened?

If one only objects to factory farms then one could try to continue eating meat but simply try to avoid factory farm sourced meat, I agree. But in most situations this would mean not eating meat as a dinner guest, not eating meat at restaurants and not buying meat from stores unless one knows exactly where it came from. I can see why one might consider it simpler to just go vegetarian.

There are others who object to both factory farm and non-factory farm sourced meat. Many people who feel this way would agree that factory farms are worse than other types of animal farming, but still not be okay with either.
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