|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#1 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 2,678
|
Finland to adopt gender neutral marriage laws tomorrow
About time, I say.
Tomorrow, the law allowing gay marriages, on par with heterosexual marriages, will come to effect. Predictably, some religious communities are getting their panties in a twist about it. It is interesting that religion is such a big issue in the US, where you have separation of church and state, and has become stale and mostly a non issue in Finland, where we have religious freedom, but a state church (Lutheran). About half of Finns don't believe in a god, though the majority is still on the churches books, more out of tradition and habit, and not really giving enough of a a **** to officially quit it. The usually milktoast church is now experiencing some internal strife about the issue of marrying gays - officially, they do not allow the marriage of gays in churches, but many priests are going rogue, planning to do it anyway. Get out your popcorn, we have drama, people. ![]() I also recently heard some happy news from my sister, who is now planning to marry her partner about a year from now, in the summer of 2018 (this year they are just too busy, and they want a big wedding). I'm happy for her, that this is now an option, and I really like her partner too - she's very nice, and they are a good fit. ![]() |
Last edited by Agatha; 1st March 2017 at 10:53 AM. Reason: masked swearing now thread is in public section |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,870
|
Is a marriage celebrant permitted to refuse to perform a wedding ceremony for personal reasons or is that a crime?
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 2,678
|
I don't think that's come up, at least yet. I'll be interested to see what my sister's marriage ceremony will be like though, as she's a Buddhist, and I'm not exactly sure what, if any, religion her partner has (in Finland, we don't typically discuss issues of religion - it's considered private.)
I suspect it wouldn't be a crime for someone to choose not to marry gay couples, but our society is egalitarian enough that it'll not be difficult to find someone to preform whatever kind of ceremony they want. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,870
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,739
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Hyperthetical
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,471
|
What country did that happen in? Here in the U.S. there were plenty of churches fanning outrage among their own congregations over the phantom menace of churches being forced to sanction and officiate gay marriages that their doctrine didn't approve of, but no actual possibility of that happening. (There were also many cases of church members being unhappy when their church leaders did decide to approve and perform gay marriage ceremonies. Perhaps that added to the confusion over the issue.) |
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister... |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 29,364
|
That's a nonstarter to anyone who follows constitutional law, and it's not even close, in the 9-0 Supreme Court range, solidly.
It's closer for people operating a business while having religious convictions, but that is still falling in favor of the religion, at least on some issues. If government can accomplish the same goal (which is the goal remember) by some other, less-intrusive manner, then it must use that method. People shouldn't have to give up fundamental rights just because the government wants to take a shortcut. These are the current front lines in constitutional cases. |
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
Wow. I haven't posted here in 2.5 years because I go so sick of the ignorance and virtue-signlaing. This is the FIRST POST I READ IN TWO AND AND HALF YEARS, AND IT'S FULL OF IGNORANCE AND VIRTUE-SIGNALLING
Quote:
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
Wow. I am so impressed! Look how tolerant you are! Let's not discuss other opposing views, let's just call them racist and homophobic. I got an idea, how about you let in thousands of Muslim migrants into your country to show how virtuous, wonderful, kind-hearted you are. Let those Muslims impose their religious way of life on your country, then claim "religion is a big issue in the US."
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,739
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
He's boasting of living in an "egalitarian" society then mocks Christians about "getting their panties in a bunch" for not sharing his values.
Grossly misunderstands how "religion is such a big issue in the US." In the "religious" United States, you can critisize any religion without being accused of a "hate speech." Not so in "egalitarian" Finland I cannot stress this enough: Virtue-signaling how "tolerant" a country is is not the least bit impressive. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 2,678
|
Um....
![]() I've been criticizing religion quite openly, without facing any legal problems. We DO have freedom of speech guaranteed by our constitution. But you REALLY took a reading of my post that was strongly colored by by your expectation, it seems to me. Finns are generally egalitarian, but there are clearly things we could improve on - I LIKE the US separation of church and state, and think that even as it's apparently resulted in the state church becoming less and less popular, not having an official church would a good thing. I don't think there's anything "impressive" about this law change - just a bit of good news. It WOULD have been impressive if this happened a few decades ago. Now it's just a case of finally getting on with the program. It took a lot of political wrangling, and they failed to get this type of law through years ago. This time it was brought up through an official petition. (We have a system where you can set up petitions and get them signed by people on line - with their identities checked through various means - and if there are enough signatures, the issue must be brought before the parliament.) This is how it was brought up now, and after debate and votes, passed. Finally. And as to the drama in the state church - there's no drama without Christians in the church vocally in favor of gay marriage as well, so if I am "virtue signaling" about Finnish society, then I'm "virtue signaling" about a portion of the Christian establishment as well. Nobody's forcing any religious organization to marry gay couples - but they have the right to marry now. The strife within the church is happening because some congregations and priests think it their moral duty not to turn away gay couples, while others think the opposite. Finnish society IS usually pretty egalitarian, but we were dragging our feet with this one, and it was more difficult to get it done that it should have been. Many other nations in Europe got there way before us. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |||
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
Maybe because you've been criticizing the right religion.
“Christianity is the only religion that can be criticised and even disparaged in Finland.” ~~Finnish politician Sebastian Tynkkynen Don't dare try criticizing any Muslims though, like this guy did.
Quote:
Quote:
![]()
|
|||
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,739
|
You come to a gay marriage thread and try to derail it into an anti Muslim thread?
Rest assured, one thing your oppressed Christians and Muslim boogeyman have in common is their rejection of gay marriage. Let's be glad sensible secular people are making the laws in Finland. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
Nothing I said was "anti Muslim". Try not to sound like such an automaton.
OP said, "[Christians] getting their panties in a bunch" "religion is a such a big issue in the US." I cited an article where a Finnish MP got fined for insulting a religion on Facebook. I'd call that level of petulance towards religion "such a big deal." I merely pointed out that in his "egalitarian" country, he is allowed to legally insult one religion and not the other.
Quote:
Many Christians are not against gay marriage. I pointed out to the OP, now that gay marriage is legal, it'll be interesting to see how the "egalitarian" government handles opposition to gay marriage depending on if the opposition is Christian or Muslim. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,384
|
If I'm not mistaken (and the local Finns will tell me one way or the other) both those people are from the nationalist Finns Party. So no great surprise they hold those views.
As for the other part of that post, you might have a point if you can find a similar call to deport Christians that wasn't treated the same way. That was why he was fined, after all. It wasn't just a case of saying something bad about the religion in question. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,384
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
"It only counts if all insults are same." lol
OP insulted Christians with impunity. He wouldn't dare insult Muslims because he is Finnish and knows the consequences (watch video upthread). Hence the virtual signaling how about Christians "getting their panties in a bunch." |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,739
|
If you want a thread about how the less than 1% of people in Finland who are Muslim are trying to take over the country through some conspiracy, start your own thread.
Congratulations to your sister Swordfishtrombone. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,384
|
Your own quote above:
Quote:
Not an insult. They are different things. And, as I said, this is not surprising as the Party they are a part of has some "interesting" views. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 433
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,739
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 683
|
Thread completely derailed before it even reached 10 posts, is that a record?
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,075
|
No. I'm not going to apologize but I didn't intend to derail it. Just wanted to point to out the sanctimony that caused me to leave this place. And by the looks of it, it's only getting worse with this forum following the rest of social media's obsession with identity politics and pseudo-social justice. A thread about Finland legalizing gay marriage is perfectly fine. As I predicted, it was sprinkled with "those backward religious Americans" and Christians "getting their panties in a bunch" and how "virtuous" it is that OP's European country is "egalitarian." I concur that from my American point of view, Finland hasn't caved too deeply into grandstanding and shaming politics the rest of the region has.
But don't worry I won't be around longer. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Miss Schoolteacher
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
|
Apparently labeling the established church in Finland 'milktoast" is a grave insult against Christians, but actively calling for the deportation of all Muslims is just mild criticism that no one should make a big deal over.
|
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,384
|
FFS, you're putting forward as proof people who are the closest equivalent to the Finnish Nazi Party. Do you even know who you're talking about?
We're not just on "differing views" here. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#31 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,805
|
|
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Baylor, never go full Trump.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,659
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#34 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,426
|
I was curious about the man that Baylor is holding out as a victim here, so I looked it up:
Quote:
https://translate.google.com/transla...eri&edit-text=
|
||
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep |
|||
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#35 |
NWO Litter Technician
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 13,015
|
|
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#36 |
Miss Schoolteacher
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
|
|
__________________
When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,780
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 42,491
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#39 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,659
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,659
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|