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Tags Finland issues , Finland politics , gay issues , gay marriage , gay rights , same sex marriage

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Old 1st March 2017, 12:53 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So he is a fringe politician regarded as a nut case by 99% of Finnish voters?
I fear the number is optimistic, but yeah, that's about it.
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Old 1st March 2017, 02:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
Egalitarian? Your country may be racist.
I don't quite follow.

The system of offering citizens a way to bring issues that they care about to be taken into consideration by the parliament, when it is done electronically, through the Internet, naturally requires that everybody signing their name to a petition only does it once.

By "check their identity in a multitude of ways" - which might not have been worded in the best possible way, I meant that they offer people various options for identifying themselves online, for the purpose of signing a petition.

For example, I tend to use my banking login - I log into to my banking account and the bank verifies my identity.

I don't see how this is racist. There is no problem for any Finn, of any race, to easily gain a way to identify themselves online, for the purpose of signing such a petition.
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Old 1st March 2017, 02:52 PM   #43
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Yeah, Hakkarainen is a fringe nut, and a pretty unpleasant character.

When it comes to criticizing Islam, I've done that as well, without any problem. The problem is when you confuse criticizing an ideology, with attacking a minority group holding that ideology. Inciting against a group isn't allowed - criticizing a group's religious beliefs is. Like any issue of free speech vs. incitement, it's not a black and white issue, and the line is difficult to draw.
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Old 1st March 2017, 02:57 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If you want a thread about how the less than 1% of people in Finland who are Muslim are trying to take over the country through some conspiracy, start your own thread.

Congratulations to your sister Swordfishtrombone.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Congrats to Finland and to your sister. Weddings can be big fun!
Thanks, and yes they can.
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Old 1st March 2017, 03:49 PM   #45
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Gee, and I thought the big religious issue in Finland was between the Lutherans and the Eastern Orthodox....
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Old 1st March 2017, 05:44 PM   #46
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Happy to hear it, Swordfishtrombone! Give your sister and her partner best wishes from this flamingly liberal corner of the US!
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Old 1st March 2017, 06:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gee, and I thought the big religious issue in Finland was between the Lutherans and the Eastern Orthodox....
I don't think there's been much, if any strife between churches in Finland. As I mentioned, in Finland, religion isn't a big issue, for most people. There hasn't been that much religious stuff that's been notable enough to make it into news. Something pops up now and then, but not often, and usually it doesn't last long.

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Happy to hear it, Swordfishtrombone! Give your sister and her partner best wishes from this flamingly liberal corner of the US!
Thank you deadrose, will do!
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Old 1st March 2017, 06:13 PM   #48
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Good on them.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 02:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
I don't think that's come up, at least yet. I'll be interested to see what my sister's marriage ceremony will be like though, as she's a Buddhist, and I'm not exactly sure what, if any, religion her partner has (in Finland, we don't typically discuss issues of religion - it's considered private.)

I suspect it wouldn't be a crime for someone to choose not to marry gay couples, but our society is egalitarian enough that it'll not be difficult to find someone to preform whatever kind of ceremony they want.
I took a quick look at the news, which I rarely do nowadays. Looks like churches will get to decide individually whether or not to marry same-sex couples. Thus so far it doesn't look like the law is forcing anyone to do anything - it just allows all couples marriage. If they cannot find a priest/whatever to perform the ceremony, they may use an official from the magistrate. (This wasn't specifically aimed at you Swordfishtrombone, just a general PSA).

Now for the celebration: FREAKIN' FINALLY! YEAH! WOOP-WOOP *CONFETTI*
OK, I'm done.
Congrats to your sister Swordfishtrombone.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 05:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
Yeah, Hakkarainen is a fringe nut, and a pretty unpleasant character.
[Finnish politics]
Hakkarainen is a nut, but he isn't quite as fringe as I'd like him to be... he's an MP on his second term, after all. I'd compare him to the permanently drunken uncle who appears (often uninvited) to family gatherings, where he mostly snores alone in a corner, but wakes up occasionally just to shout obscenities.

I suppose he's pretty close to what Tynkkynen aspires to with his attention-whoring.
[/Finnish politics]
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Old 2nd March 2017, 05:19 AM   #51
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Was I right earlier that they're both from the same party?
Finn Party?

I haven't followed Finnish politics for several years, and they were a fairly small party at that point...
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Old 2nd March 2017, 05:50 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Was I right earlier that they're both from the same party?
Finn Party?

I haven't followed Finnish politics for several years, and they were a fairly small party at that point...
This is correct, they're both in the Finns. They also happen to form the current gov with two other parties.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 06:40 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Manigoldo View Post
They also happen to form the current gov with two other parties.
Oh...
That I did not know!
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Old 2nd March 2017, 07:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Manigoldo View Post
I took a quick look at the news, which I rarely do nowadays. Looks like churches will get to decide individually whether or not to marry same-sex couples. Thus so far it doesn't look like the law is forcing anyone to do anything - it just allows all couples marriage. If they cannot find a priest/whatever to perform the ceremony, they may use an official from the magistrate. (This wasn't specifically aimed at you Swordfishtrombone, just a general PSA).

Now for the celebration: FREAKIN' FINALLY! YEAH! WOOP-WOOP *CONFETTI*
OK, I'm done.
Congrats to your sister Swordfishtrombone.
^Yeah, that's how I figured it was. And thanks.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 07:34 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Was I right earlier that they're both from the same party?
Finn Party?

I haven't followed Finnish politics for several years, and they were a fairly small party at that point...
They went from ca. 10 % vote share to almost 20 % in 2011. Despite the victory, they remained an opposition party and kept on yapping how the "old party elites" keep doing everything wrong. In 2015, they again got 20 %, and this time they just had to get into the government (they were the 2nd-largest parliamentary group and got the 3rd-largest vote share).

Now, after a bit under 2 years of being a government party, polls have their vote share down from almost 20 % to about 9 %.

ETA: ...and congrats to Swordfishtrombone's sister and everyone else who has now tied the knot after a long wait.
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Last edited by timhau; 2nd March 2017 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 08:03 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
About time, I say.

Tomorrow, the law allowing gay marriages, on par with heterosexual marriages, will come to effect. Predictably, some religious communities are getting their panties in a twist about it.

It is interesting that religion is such a big issue in the US, where you have separation of church and state, and has become stale and mostly a non issue in Finland, where we have religious freedom, but a state church (Lutheran). About half of Finns don't believe in a god, though the majority is still on the churches books, more out of tradition and habit, and not really giving enough of a a **** to officially quit it.

The usually milktoast church is now experiencing some internal strife about the issue of marrying gays - officially, they do not allow the marriage of gays in churches, but many priests are going rogue, planning to do it anyway. Get out your popcorn, we have drama, people.

I also recently heard some happy news from my sister, who is now planning to marry her partner about a year from now, in the summer of 2018 (this year they are just too busy, and they want a big wedding). I'm happy for her, that this is now an option, and I really like her partner too - she's very nice, and they are a good fit.
Mazel Tov! Best wishes to your sister and her partner!
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Old 2nd March 2017, 08:24 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Now, after a bit under 2 years of being a government party, polls have their vote share down from almost 20 % to about 9 %.
Thank you for that.
So, it seems after a bit of a fling with them the Finnish electorate have decided to "lose" their phone number?

Originally Posted by timhau View Post
ETA: ...and congrats to Swordfishtrombone's sister and everyone else who has now tied the knot after a long wait.
Oh yes, and one of these from me as well!
Sorry for the thread derail!
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Old 2nd March 2017, 08:46 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Thank you for that.
So, it seems after a bit of a fling with them the Finnish electorate have decided to "lose" their phone number?
Yup, something like that. First contact with reality often seems fatal for populist solutions.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 08:48 AM   #59
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^Thanks, all.

And yes, being in the government, especially since the government hasn't exactly been popular lately, has really turned away their supporters. Interesting to see whether they'll revert to being a minor party in the next elections.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 09:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's how I would hope that a gender neutral marriage law would operate. Unfortunately, political correctness is often such that gay rights trumps common sense.
Yeah people shouldn't be forced to treat people like they have rights even though they do. I mean if someone doesn't like black people why should they have to marry them just because it's their job. Or serve them food. Or hire them.

I mean what good is giving people rights if we can't pretend they don't really have them when it suits?
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Old 2nd March 2017, 11:13 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
I don't think there's been much, if any strife between churches in Finland. As I mentioned, in Finland, religion isn't a big issue, for most people. There hasn't been that much religious stuff that's been notable enough to make it into news. Something pops up now and then, but not often, and usually it doesn't last long.



Thank you deadrose, will do!
Actually I was a bit surprised to hear that christianity had reached Finland I thought you were all pagan tree worshippers, excluding the red headed witches. So when did you hear the good word? Who converted the Finns? How did they learn that awful language to preach?
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Old 2nd March 2017, 11:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah people shouldn't be forced to treat people like they have rights even though they do. I mean if someone doesn't like black people why should they have to marry them just because it's their job. Or serve them food. Or hire them.

I mean what good is giving people rights if we can't pretend they don't really have them when it suits?
If Manigoldo is right then you want to go far beyond what the changed law is proposing.

Nothing like a show of force if somebody doesn't subscribe to your POV eh? Why should somebody look for a marriage celebrant who is willing to perform a gay ceremony when you can threaten an existing celebrant instead? Right?
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Old 2nd March 2017, 11:18 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please stop sounding like an automaton.
Does that statement even have a meaning, or does it just sound as if it does?
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Old 2nd March 2017, 11:27 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If Manigoldo is right then you want to go far beyond what the changed law is proposing.

Nothing like a show of force if somebody doesn't subscribe to your POV eh? Why should somebody look for a marriage celebrant who is willing to perform a gay ceremony when you can threaten an existing celebrant instead? Right?
edit to add: posted before i fully comprehended your post. Yes, the law seems pretty clear, and yes, it looks as if Archie may be asking for more, but it's hard to tell.

Is that actually the case, and does such a thing happen with any regularity? Most of the people I know who marry would prefer, if they're going for a celebrant at all, to find someone who is on their side. Of course if you think civil registration is celebration, then some issues might arise, as is the case with most civil rights, just as an antisemitic bigot is probably not allowed to refuse to grant a diver's license to a Jew.

However, it's true I don't know what the rules might be in Finland, as I'm an American from Vermont, where only the reverse is the case. Religious celebrants are protected from having to perform odious rites, but they are not forbidden to expatiate to absurd length and to swing their collective weight around on the imagined sinfulness and horror of changes in civil law.

But interestingly, at least around here, most of the civil functionaries involved with gay marriage, and civil union before that, have simply gone about their business.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 12:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
That's a nonstarter to anyone who follows constitutional law, and it's not even close, in the 9-0 Supreme Court range, solidly.

It's closer for people operating a business while having religious convictions, but that is still falling in favor of the religion, at least on some issues. If government can accomplish the same goal (which is the goal remember) by some other, less-intrusive manner, then it must use that method. People shouldn't have to give up fundamental rights just because the government wants to take a shortcut. These are the current front lines in constitutional cases.
IIRC there are one or two bakers who have been cited under state civil rights laws for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. I don't think all the appeals have played out yet, so I'm not sure how that will get resolved.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 12:56 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Actually I was a bit surprised to hear that christianity had reached Finland I thought you were all pagan tree worshippers, excluding the red headed witches. So when did you hear the good word? Who converted the Finns? How did they learn that awful language to preach?
There's actually some pretty interesting and amusing stories that resulted from the spread of Christianity to Finland - the message sort of got twisted when it mixed with the local pagan mythologies. Apparently (according to Kalevala, the national epic), this maiden Marie ate a special berry in the forest, and got pragnant, and the people had a hard time believing that tall tail. The baby was born, and drama resulted, in which the famous bard/wizard Väinämöinen tried to kill Jesus in various ways, but didn't succeed. So he sailed away, vowing to return one day when Finns needed him again.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 09:06 PM   #67
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So where the is he?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 03:34 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
So where the is he?
You know how it is, you get a bit distracted, sing a few songs, and bingo! Centuries have gone by.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 03:50 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If Manigoldo is right then you want to go far beyond what the changed law is proposing.

Nothing like a show of force if somebody doesn't subscribe to your POV eh? Why should somebody look for a marriage celebrant who is willing to perform a gay ceremony when you can threaten an existing celebrant instead? Right?
Why should people be allowed to discriminate based on religion or sexual orientation? Either everyone can decide who they provide their service to for any reason or they don't.

What good is pretending people have rights if you give people an opt out on observing them. Would you accept that for yourself? What if a doctor refused to treat you? Or a policeman refused to acknowledge your right to a lawyer?

Why should gay couples be a special case where people can choose whether they have rights or not?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 08:10 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Why should people be allowed to discriminate based on religion or sexual orientation? Either everyone can decide who they provide their service to for any reason or they don't.

What good is pretending people have rights if you give people an opt out on observing them. Would you accept that for yourself? What if a doctor refused to treat you? Or a policeman refused to acknowledge your right to a lawyer?

Why should gay couples be a special case where people can choose whether they have rights or not?
Well, speaking as one from a nation where there is separation between church and state, or at least is supposed to be so far, I would suggest that there is a deep and important distinction between the civil and the religious, the performing and the celebrating. It's clear that if civil marriage is a right, everyone should have the right to being civilly married. As long as civil authorities are required to perform the wedding, then the right exists, but there is no penalty if among multiple employees, it's made possible to preserve preference, and certainly no penalty if non-civil, religious groups are allowed to operate along their own rules. A civil marriage is not a church wedding. Maybe it's just a quibble about what one means by a "celebrant," but the Finnish law looks to be pretty reasonably laid out so as to guarantee rights without forcing people to act in ways that conflict with their principles.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:36 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, speaking as one from a nation where there is separation between church and state, or at least is supposed to be so far, I would suggest that there is a deep and important distinction between the civil and the religious, the performing and the celebrating. It's clear that if civil marriage is a right, everyone should have the right to being civilly married. As long as civil authorities are required to perform the wedding, then the right exists, but there is no penalty if among multiple employees, it's made possible to preserve preference, and certainly no penalty if non-civil, religious groups are allowed to operate along their own rules. A civil marriage is not a church wedding. Maybe it's just a quibble about what one means by a "celebrant," but the Finnish law looks to be pretty reasonably laid out so as to guarantee rights without forcing people to act in ways that conflict with their principles.
Yeah, I don't think we should force priests to marry non-catholics or rabbis to marry non-jews. That would just be silly.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 11:58 AM   #72
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, speaking as one from a nation where there is separation between church and state, or at least is supposed to be so far, I would suggest that there is a deep and important distinction between the civil and the religious, the performing and the celebrating. It's clear that if civil marriage is a right, everyone should have the right to being civilly married. As long as civil authorities are required to perform the wedding, then the right exists, but there is no penalty if among multiple employees, it's made possible to preserve preference, and certainly no penalty if non-civil, religious groups are allowed to operate along their own rules. A civil marriage is not a church wedding. Maybe it's just a quibble about what one means by a "celebrant," but the Finnish law looks to be pretty reasonably laid out so as to guarantee rights without forcing people to act in ways that conflict with their principles.
If religions want to have their own private celebrations with whatever rules they like then those ceremonies should have no legal standing nor should those who discriminate have any legal authority to officially marry someone nor should anyone who does have the legal authority be allowed to participate in the religious ceremonies in any official capacity.

The problem arises when people demand the right to discriminate yet still be recognised.

In other words if you want to legally marry someone you need to marry whoever asks for it otherwise you don't get to marry anyone.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:40 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If religions want to have their own private celebrations with whatever rules they like then those ceremonies should have no legal standing nor should those who discriminate have any legal authority to officially marry someone nor should anyone who does have the legal authority be allowed to participate in the religious ceremonies in any official capacity.

The problem arises when people demand the right to discriminate yet still be recognised.

In other words if you want to legally marry someone you need to marry whoever asks for it otherwise you don't get to marry anyone.
I think the problem occurs if you conflate civil marriage with the officiation of a wedding. To pick an obvious example, for Catholics, marriage is a sacrament that includes certain rules that are not part of civil marriage. If people are actually Catholics, your principle would mean either that they would be unable to have a sacramental marriage, or that they would have to have two marriages. Requiring that priests should officiate at any wedding for anyone who comes by would, in effect, mean that they are no longer performing their sacramental function. As long as the option for civil marriage is available everywhere to everyone, there is really no down side to allowing additional officiants to perform marriages under more exclusive rules.

Of course, again speaking only of where I live, everyone who marries must have a marriage license which is civil. Whether you get it done by the Town Clerk and witnessed by passers by, or by the Bishop in a cathedral with pink flower girls and limousines and elephants dropping from parachutes, it's the same. The officiation is a matter of choice, but the marriage is the same. I see no reason why an officiant should have to be available to everyone all the time. If I wanted to here in Vermont, I could apply to become an officiant myself, simply for the purpose of performing a wedding for some couple, for some reason that may or may not be applicable to anyone else. If I were a fur fancier and some friends wanted to be married by someone dressed as Hello Kitty or an anteater from outer space, I could, despite the difficulty, become a temporary officiant, but your rule would be that I would then have to perform weddings for anyone any place and any time.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:57 PM   #74
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:41 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
As long as the option for civil marriage is available everywhere to everyone, there is really no down side to allowing additional officiants to perform marriages under more exclusive rules.
Archie Gemmill Goal's attitude is similar to that of those who want marijuana to remain highly illegal. It's not about practicalities or freedom of choice. It's about sending the "right" message.
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Old 5th March 2017, 07:54 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
I suspect it wouldn't be a crime for someone to choose not to marry gay couples, but our society is egalitarian enough that it'll not be difficult to find someone to preform whatever kind of ceremony they want.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's how I would hope that a gender neutral marriage law would operate. Unfortunately, political correctness is often such that gay rights trumps common sense.
Say what?

I've never heard of any case where a non-governmental officiant was forced to perform a same-sex marriage against their will.

In my country, the Netherlands, there is a strict separation between civil marriage and "church marriage". A civil marriage is performed at town hall (1) by an officiant/registrar who is a civil servant of the town (2). Any other ceremony is a fake wedding, in legal terms, and they're expressly verboten by law to be conducted before the civil marriage.

When SSM was introduced in 2002, various towns had officiants on the books who objected to SSM and wouldn't perform them. They were allowed to still do their jobs as long as the town had enough officiants on the books who would do so. Only in 2014, a law was passed that obliged every officiant to perform any wedding. Methinks that's enough time for those bigoted officiants to find another job. Mind, they're civil servants and they should perform their duties as spelled out in the law.

People who want a religious ceremony as well often plan the church service directly after the town hall ceremony. So all the guests first go to the town hall ceremony where the town officiant gives a nice speech and spells out the obligations of (civil) marriage and actually marries the couple, and then to the church where the priest/minister does the same for the obligations of a church "marriage". Or the couple does the town hall part as a quickie a few days before, with only the two witnesses in a simple town hall office.

Actually, I think that is the purer concept. An American (or Australian, or British, etc.) marriage where the priest is an officiant licensed by the state mingles two different concepts of marriage in one single ceremony. As, say, RC priest, he "marries" them in a "marriage" that cannot be dissolved by divorce, but as state licensee he has them sign the paperwork for a (real) marriage that can be divorced for no particular reason at all. I think there's some tension here with the separation between church and state which is so well enshrined in the American constitution.

Anyway, congrats to Swordfishtrombone's sister that she'll be able to marry her loved one!

(1) Typically, wedding halls are in a historic part of town hall, or a manor or medieval castle. Or the town licenses another building to serve as wedding hall at the request of the couple. Of course, when this former abbey and seminary refused to serve a same-sex couple, its license was revoked.

(2) In individual cases, someone else can do this when they file the paperwork and the town approves; the most well-known case is that of the mayor of Amsterdam marrying our current king.
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Old 5th March 2017, 08:52 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Say what?

I've never heard of any case where a non-governmental officiant was forced to perform a same-sex marriage against their will.
AFAIK, it has never happened in any country. I figure it will happen some time after clergy are forced to marry divorced members of their sect and people who are not members of their sect.
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Old 5th March 2017, 12:12 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Say what?

I've never heard of any case where a non-governmental officiant was forced to perform a same-sex marriage against their will.

In my country, the Netherlands, there is a strict separation between civil marriage and "church marriage". A civil marriage is performed at town hall (1) by an officiant/registrar who is a civil servant of the town (2). Any other ceremony is a fake wedding, in legal terms, and they're expressly verboten by law to be conducted before the civil marriage.

When SSM was introduced in 2002, various towns had officiants on the books who objected to SSM and wouldn't perform them. They were allowed to still do their jobs as long as the town had enough officiants on the books who would do so. Only in 2014, a law was passed that obliged every officiant to perform any wedding. Methinks that's enough time for those bigoted officiants to find another job. Mind, they're civil servants and they should perform their duties as spelled out in the law.

People who want a religious ceremony as well often plan the church service directly after the town hall ceremony. So all the guests first go to the town hall ceremony where the town officiant gives a nice speech and spells out the obligations of (civil) marriage and actually marries the couple, and then to the church where the priest/minister does the same for the obligations of a church "marriage". Or the couple does the town hall part as a quickie a few days before, with only the two witnesses in a simple town hall office.

Actually, I think that is the purer concept. An American (or Australian, or British, etc.) marriage where the priest is an officiant licensed by the state mingles two different concepts of marriage in one single ceremony. As, say, RC priest, he "marries" them in a "marriage" that cannot be dissolved by divorce, but as state licensee he has them sign the paperwork for a (real) marriage that can be divorced for no particular reason at all. I think there's some tension here with the separation between church and state which is so well enshrined in the American constitution.

Anyway, congrats to Swordfishtrombone's sister that she'll be able to marry her loved one!

(1) Typically, wedding halls are in a historic part of town hall, or a manor or medieval castle. Or the town licenses another building to serve as wedding hall at the request of the couple. Of course, when this former abbey and seminary refused to serve a same-sex couple, its license was revoked.

(2) In individual cases, someone else can do this when they file the paperwork and the town approves; the most well-known case is that of the mayor of Amsterdam marrying our current king.

Thanks!

And I really like your system. It should be that way here too, I think. It just makes a lot of sense.

The Neatherlands is a country I would wish Finland would learn from in other ways too - the clear majority of our population wants legalized euthanasia, but the people in power are hesitant. We just recently had the issue brought up (in the same way as the gay marriage issue - through official popular petition) in the parliament, and it's so recent I don't yet know what, if anything will come out of it.
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Old 5th March 2017, 12:16 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Onneksi Suomi
Thank you!

Understood your meaning, though I have to correct your language. Just goes to show how difficult Finnish is.

The correct form would be either "Onneksi olkoon Suomi" (direct translation: "May it bring fortune Suomi") or "Onnea Suomi" ("Congratulations Finland")

"Onneksi Suomi" would strictly translate to "Fortunately Finland".
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Old 5th March 2017, 04:51 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's how I would hope that a gender neutral marriage law would operate. Unfortunately, political correctness is often such that gay rights trumps common sense.
Often? What examples do you have of common sense conflicting with gay rights?
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