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Tags Finland issues , Finland politics , gay issues , gay marriage , gay rights , same sex marriage

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Old 5th March 2017, 07:19 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
Thank you!

Understood your meaning, though I have to correct your language. Just goes to show how difficult Finnish is.

The correct form would be either "Onneksi olkoon Suomi" (direct translation: "May it bring fortune Suomi") or "Onnea Suomi" ("Congratulations Finland")

"Onneksi Suomi" would strictly translate to "Fortunately Finland".
Perkele.
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Old 8th March 2017, 07:22 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Say what?

I've never heard of any case where a non-governmental officiant was forced to perform a same-sex marriage against their will.

In my country, the Netherlands, there is a strict separation between civil marriage and "church marriage". A civil marriage is performed at town hall (1) by an officiant/registrar who is a civil servant of the town (2). Any other ceremony is a fake wedding, in legal terms, and they're expressly verboten by law to be conducted before the civil marriage.

When SSM was introduced in 2002, various towns had officiants on the books who objected to SSM and wouldn't perform them. They were allowed to still do their jobs as long as the town had enough officiants on the books who would do so. Only in 2014, a law was passed that obliged every officiant to perform any wedding. Methinks that's enough time for those bigoted officiants to find another job. Mind, they're civil servants and they should perform their duties as spelled out in the law.

People who want a religious ceremony as well often plan the church service directly after the town hall ceremony. So all the guests first go to the town hall ceremony where the town officiant gives a nice speech and spells out the obligations of (civil) marriage and actually marries the couple, and then to the church where the priest/minister does the same for the obligations of a church "marriage". Or the couple does the town hall part as a quickie a few days before, with only the two witnesses in a simple town hall office.<snip for relevance>
If I'm not entirely mistaken, it is the same here, and in that sense it really makes no difference whether the church is willing to hold their ceremonies for certain people or not. Of course I hope that they would come along with the secular version of equal, as they inevitably do, sooner rather than later. According to the news, there actually are priests who are willing to perform these rituals and will go about performing them, although the 'official' stance of the lutheran church is that a marriage is between a male and a female representative of the homo sapiens.
A higher-up in the church has announced that "going against the instructions of an employer will lead to consequences".
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Old 3rd August 2018, 03:20 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Apparently labeling the established church in Finland 'milktoast" is a grave insult against Christians, but actively calling for the deportation of all Muslims is just mild criticism that no one should make a big deal over.
With just the right amount of panty-twisting to support the OP.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:03 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
FFS, you're putting forward as proof people who are the closest equivalent to the Finnish Nazi Party. Do you even know who you're talking about?

We're not just on "differing views" here.
The True Finns Party (perussuomalaiset) is not a Nazi party. It is parliamentarian and is part of the coalition government. It is on a par with UKIP.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:11 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Actually I was a bit surprised to hear that christianity had reached Finland I thought you were all pagan tree worshippers, excluding the red headed witches. So when did you hear the good word? Who converted the Finns? How did they learn that awful language to preach?
Some English guy called Bishop Henry.

Some Finnish guy called Lalli topped him for his troubles.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:25 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The True Finns Party (perussuomalaiset) is not a Nazi party. It is parliamentarian
The Nazis also had seats in the Reichstag.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
and is part of the coalition government.
Hitler's government was also a coalition government.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is on a par with UKIP.
So they're not Nazis, just racist scum?

The quality of your arguments keeps amazing me.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:53 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The Nazis also had seats in the Reichstag.

Hitler's government was also a coalition government.

So they're not Nazis, just racist scum?

The quality of your arguments keeps amazing me.
Being right wing does not equate to being a Nazi.

The True Finns are a lot like UKIP. Some of their members are racists and bigots (just like a lot of Tory and UKIP voters), however, the party itself is not.

They are anti-EU (hey, you are allowed to be anti_EU without being called a Nazi).
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Old 3rd August 2018, 11:11 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Yeah, alles those churches getting sued for not performing religious gay marriages... Like... And...

Cite?
It seems to be a concern among many of the religious right in the U. S. that churches or clergy will be forced to perform same sex marriages contrary to their beliefs. As far as I know, there has been no effort, either by any government entity, nor by any private parties filing a civil suit, to do so. It is, of course, possible that somebody will attempt, through civil action, to force a church to perform such a marriage.

IMO, as long as the government recognizes same sex marriages with equal status with different sex marriages, and offers the option of a civil marriage, it should be up to individual religions whether they recognize or perform same sex marriage. It is not unprecedented for a church to refuse to recognize or perform certain marriages. The Catholic Church, for example will not perform or recognize a remarriage of a divorced person, unless the previous marriage has been annulled by the church.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 12:51 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Being right wing does not equate to being a Nazi.

The True Finns are a lot like UKIP. Some of their members are racists and bigots (just like a lot of Tory and UKIP voters), however, the party itself is not.

They are anti-EU (hey, you are allowed to be anti_EU without being called a Nazi).
The UKIP seems to have a lot of trouble finding a leader who is not a racist, though. Do you even follow the news?

Oh, and way to miss the fact that none of your arguments why the True Finns would not be Nazis holds water. BTW, they're no longer called "True Finns" and they're not in government anymore either.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 04:28 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The UKIP seems to have a lot of trouble finding a leader who is not a racist, though. Do you even follow the news?

Oh, and way to miss the fact that none of your arguments why the True Finns would not be Nazis holds water. BTW, they're no longer called "True Finns" and they're not in government anymore either.
So what? You or another poster was the one to bring up the True Finns.

Timo Soini is a bona fide politician. Just because you disagree with someone it doesn't make them a Nazi.

I think accuracy is important, don't you? When there are real neo-nazi 'nordic' far right groups out there.

Quote:
He served as Deputy Prime Minister of Finland from 2015 to 2017 and has been Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timo_Soini

Hello? Timo Soini is Minister of Foreign Affairs.

If he is a Nazi, then so is Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt.

Know your factions. Describe them accurately.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 05:36 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So what? You or another poster was the one to bring up the True Finns.

Timo Soini is a bona fide politician. Just because you disagree with someone it doesn't make them a Nazi.

I think accuracy is important, don't you? When there are real neo-nazi 'nordic' far right groups out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timo_Soini

Hello? Timo Soini is Minister of Foreign Affairs.

If he is a Nazi, then so is Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt.

Know your factions. Describe them accurately.
Because Timo Soini is Foreign Minister, he can't be a Nazi? So, Joachim von Ribbentrop wasn't a Nazi either because he was foreign minister?

And Nazis can't be bona fide politicians?

And no, it wasn't me who called the "True Finns" Nazis. IIRC, it was Tolls who said they were the closest thing to Nazis you have. Personally, I have no need to find out what kind of scum they are, but every foolish argument of yours to the contrary lends more credence to a claim they're actually ideologically Nazis. Your "accuracy" is laughable.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:28 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Because Timo Soini is Foreign Minister, he can't be a Nazi? So, Joachim von Ribbentrop wasn't a Nazi either because he was foreign minister?

And Nazis can't be bona fide politicians?

And no, it wasn't me who called the "True Finns" Nazis. IIRC, it was Tolls who said they were the closest thing to Nazis you have. Personally, I have no need to find out what kind of scum they are, but every foolish argument of yours to the contrary lends more credence to a claim they're actually ideologically Nazis. Your "accuracy" is laughable.
If you think UKIP or the then 'True Finns' (note that the original Finnish name translates as 'ordinary [basic] Finns') are Nazis, what would you call a centrist party that believed in left wing economics (because that is how the Finnish government saw the so-called 'True Finns'). The then True Finns sat at the centre in government sessions (called a 'senate' in Finland).
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:20 AM   #93
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To quote wiki on the Finns Party:

"The party combines left-wing economic policies[20] with conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism."

As I said earlier, it's the closest thing you have to a bunch of Nazis.
That they are in government (which does not preclude the above) doesn't help...

They are part of the right wing, nationalist move that has been going on in Europe for a few years now.
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Old 7th August 2018, 03:27 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
To quote wiki on the Finns Party:

"The party combines left-wing economic policies[20] with conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism."

As I said earlier, it's the closest thing you have to a bunch of Nazis.
That they are in government (which does not preclude the above) doesn't help...

They are part of the right wing, nationalist move that has been going on in Europe for a few years now.
That is a massive leap to your conclusion.

The so-called True Finns rose in popularity because, amongst other things, Finns were very angry about having to bail out the Greeks as a result of what the taxed-up-to-the-eyeball Finn saw as profligate spending on their part like no tomorrow, and there was thus resentment about being in the EU.

How you can translate that into being 'Nazi's' is mind-boggling.

Before you call me a Nazi, I voted for Niinistö. I think it is healthy to have an opposition party in a democracy so I don't have any problem with the Communist Party or the former True Finns.
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Old 7th August 2018, 11:07 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is a massive leap to your conclusion.

More like a small step.

Quote:
The so-called True Finns rose in popularity because, amongst other things, Finns were very angry about having to bail out the Greeks as a result of what the taxed-up-to-the-eyeball Finn saw as profligate spending on their part like no tomorrow, and there was thus resentment about being in the EU.

And the Nazis rose to power because the Germans were angry about runaway inflation, post WWI reparation demands by the other western European powers like France and England, general social upheaval, and what they believed to be Jews messing about with their economy.

Quote:
How you can translate that into being 'Nazi's' is mind-boggling.

Lessee, "conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism"

Yeah, that's just about the definition of racist fascism, which the Nazis certainly were, so the similarities are obvious to anyone with eyes and at least a cursory knowledge of history.
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Old 7th August 2018, 12:18 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
More like a small step.




And the Nazis rose to power because the Germans were angry about runaway inflation, post WWI reparation demands by the other western European powers like France and England, general social upheaval, and what they believed to be Jews messing about with their economy.




Lessee, "conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism"

Yeah, that's just about the definition of racist fascism, which the Nazis certainly were, so the similarities are obvious to anyone with eyes and at least a cursory knowledge of history.
To be fair (but fair is not kind) it's possible calling them Nazis might be going too far. After all, the Nazis were a pretty special case of the worst of the worst. One might compare these folks more readily to the factions of post-Communist Yugoslavia. Ethnic nationalism has very sharp teeth. For those convinced that this sort of thing can't happen after the Nazi defeat, it's a useful reminder that just because you don't say the same words or kill the same number of millions, you can still be plenty bad enough.
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Old 7th August 2018, 12:54 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
To be fair (but fair is not kind) it's possible calling them Nazis might be going too far. After all, the Nazis were a pretty special case of the worst of the worst.

No one but Vixen has called them Nazis. All I and others have done is point out that the description provided of them makes them similar to Nazis, with the similarity being fairly obvious.
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No one but Vixen has called them Nazis. All I and others have done is point out that the description provided of them makes them similar to Nazis, with the similarity being fairly obvious.
Quite, and of course by throwing in the Nazi card it's then possible, by pointing out that they're not Nazis, to suggest that they're not that bad. My only point being that many very bad folks are not that bad, but quite bad enough.
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:59 PM   #99
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'"The party combines left-wing economic policies[20] with conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism."'

Hello? 'Left wing economic policies', such as spending on healthcare for everybody. Having 'conservative social values' also doesn't qualify as 'far right'. I have no idea what socio-cultural authoritarianism means (or is this a euphemism for 'Christian'?). As for ethnic nationalism*, well, here's the thing, UKIP are also nationalist, as are the current MAGA Republicans in the US.

It still doesn't equate to Nazism. For a start, Nazism is (a) totalitarianist, and (b) a military dictatorship with (b) one Führer leader, usually a self-styled 'General'.

The situation of the True Finns in Finland did not even come close to this.

*You can't even watch sport on BBC without the commentator going on and on and on about the British sportsmen and athletes. Claire Balding even went to great lengths to stick up for a Scottish skater who was an obvious cheat/incompetent who kept ploughing down other competitors just because she was in TeamGB.

So you see, being nationalist is not equivalent to being a Nazi, even if it is annoying.
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Old 7th August 2018, 03:21 PM   #100
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Anyway, Finland is not that liberal in LBGT matters:

Quote:
In Finland, people wishing to change their legal gender must be sterilized or "for some other reason infertile". In 2012, a possible change of the law was put under consideration by the Finnish Ministry of Social Affairs and Health.[51] A recommendation from the UN Human Rights Council to eliminate the sterilization requirement was rejected by the Finnish Government in 2017.[52] Sakris Kupila, a trans activist and medical student, was denied a legal gender change after refusing to undergo this process, campaigning along with Amnesty International to demand a change to the law.[53] Transgender people must also receive a mental disorder diagnosis in order to change legal gender.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Finland

Bear in mind homosexuality was a crime until 1963 and an offender could be ordered to be castrated.

It had a similar forced sterilisation policy as Sweden post-war.

It is still pretty conservative.
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Old 7th August 2018, 05:48 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'"The party combines left-wing economic policies[20] with conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism."'

Hello? 'Left wing economic policies', such as spending on healthcare for everybody. Having 'conservative social values' also doesn't qualify as 'far right'.

You really ought to learn more history. The Nazi party in the 1930s implemented economic policies that were very left wing in nature: notably a fiscal approach, huge public spending programmes financed by taxation, and a full-employment aim.



Quote:
I have no idea what socio-cultural authoritarianism means (or is this a euphemism for 'Christian'?).

No, it's not. And some elementary research - a talent that you claim to possess in abundance - would easily define it for you.......



Quote:
As for ethnic nationalism*, well, here's the thing, UKIP are also nationalist, as are the current MAGA Republicans in the US.

Do you know the meaning of the word "ethnic"?



Quote:
It still doesn't equate to Nazism. For a start, Nazism is (a) totalitarianist, and (b) a military dictatorship with (b) one Führer leader, usually a self-styled 'General'.

Again, learn more history. The Nazi party came to power in Germany in the total absence of any of the above. And indeed none of it happened until after the party won a huge majority in 1933 (after which Hitler outlawed opposition parties). Did you say that the True Finns party is currently a minority in a coalition......?



Quote:
*You can't even watch sport on BBC without the commentator going on and on and on about the British sportsmen and athletes. Claire Balding even went to great lengths to stick up for a Scottish skater who was an obvious cheat/incompetent who kept ploughing down other competitors just because she was in TeamGB.

So you see, being nationalist is not equivalent to being a Nazi, even if it is annoying.

Seriously??? You're really attempting to equate the views of TV commentators with political right-wing ethnic nationalism?? Seriously??? My word.
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:52 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Again, learn more history. The Nazi party came to power in Germany in the total absence of any of the above. And indeed none of it happened until after the party won a huge majority in 1933 (after which Hitler outlawed opposition parties). Did you say that the True Finns party is currently a minority in a coalition......?

Just to clarify a little, the Nazis were also a minority party. President Hindenburg brought them into his conservative coalition to oppose the growing power of the Communists, and made a good deal of concessions toward the party in order to get their votes. One of those concessions was conceding to Hitler power above and beyond what he would have been able to achieve as a minority party.

So, no military coup, no overwhelming sweep into office, but a simply handing off of power they would have had a very difficult time achieving on their own due to their limited popular support.
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Old 8th August 2018, 07:12 AM   #103
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The True Finns' sister party in Sweden was openly neo-Nazi as late as 23 years ago.

They have more or less the same party plank as the True Finns, and the same kind of voter base. They are both part of a growing ethno-nationalist populist movement in the West.
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Old 8th August 2018, 01:14 PM   #104
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Oh, please. Timo Soini supports Millwall and wants out of the EU.

In the UK he would be the typical right wing Tory.

You can't call someone a Nazi just because they don't like the Euro currency or the EU. A German acquaintance of mine was just telling me today that a country's currency s part of that country's identification.

Ethnic nationalism is contemptible in some contexts, but that doesn't mean that of itself there is anything wrong with it. Scots, Irish and Welsh are allowed to say how proud they are of their ethnic nationality. If an Englishman does it, he is a ****.

There is a total lack of objectivity missing when it comes to the topic of national identity.
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:06 AM   #105
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You do know what Millwall is somewhat famous for, don't you?

Why do you think a foreigner would choose Millwall over some other English team?
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:58 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The True Finns' sister party in Sweden was openly neo-Nazi as late as 23 years ago.

They have more or less the same party plank as the True Finns, and the same kind of voter base. They are both part of a growing ethno-nationalist populist movement in the West.
The Swedish neo-nazis are declared nazis. A couple of years ago I was reading about how they burnt down and desecrated synagogues around Sweden, including one of historical value and beauty in Stockholm.

There is no comparison.
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Old 9th August 2018, 10:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
You do know what Millwall is somewhat famous for, don't you?

Why do you think a foreigner would choose Millwall over some other English team?
I don't see why not. I went to a game at Queen of the South whilst on holiday in Galloway, Scotland. To my amazement, there was a whole bunch of Norwegian supporters there who were fanatical about the team and think nothing of flying over to their games.

Sure, most 'foreigners' support teams like Manchester United and West Ham, but there are plenty of football fans who are the opposite and empathise more with the 'underdogs' (see above).

Millwall is famous for football hooligans.

It means nothing. It doesn't indicate homophobia.
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:28 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Swedish neo-nazis are declared nazis. A couple of years ago I was reading about how they burnt down and desecrated synagogues around Sweden, including one of historical value and beauty in Stockholm.

There is no comparison.
Nonsense that is just the swedish Alt Right. Nexty you will be saying fine people like Richard Spencer are Nazis.
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Old 10th August 2018, 12:42 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Millwall is famous for football hooligans.

It means nothing. It doesn't indicate homophobia.
They were also known for their racism (still are to some extent).

It's part of the reason Millwall as a club are currently pushing the Kick It Out campaign. But it's an uphill struggle.

A foreigner picking them as a team to follow says a lot...
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