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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 12th June 2018, 04:02 PM   #281
Hans
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Did you ask them?
Why would he ask them he'd just make up something that is completely unrealistic then hunker down and refuse to explain it or provide any evidence that it was real.

That's his MO. Make stuff up.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:04 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
...deleted nonsense
Nope you're still here and still refusing to clarify your position:

Quote:
I’m still not claiming that the absense of said bank endorsing stamps is proof of forgery. No bank endorsement stamps that according to the federal regulations should be present = forgery
It will be repeated until answered - which is your position?
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:05 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Quote the juicy parts, that states that RFK was involved in plans/attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro.
No government puts assassination plans in writing.

Just as the coup against Diem ended with his assassination, a coup against Castro would also end in the dictator's death.

Quote:
However, the covert aim was to show ”busy-ness” and thereby not anger the already angry and frustrated Cuban exiles and their violent supporters in the CIA/Mob/Right Wing Cuba effort. To ’contain the situation’.

Now, show me that ”Fracturing the Regime” was ”polite CIA-lingua” for political assassinations and if so (lol), that RFK knew this.
This right here is why nobody takes you seriously.

You make a claim based on your evaluation of what you have read, and you expect us to accept it as the word of god. But when I make a claim, based on all of the government documents I have read you mock it simply because it runs counter to your fantasy world view of the Kennedys.

Killing Castro, or any other government leader, would not be part of a recorded conversation, and anyone who has studied the CIA - the real CIA - and the White House NSC would know this to be true. If I'm wrong someone on this board will correct me. Not you, someone who knows more about this kind of thing.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:11 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
On any other forum in the known world, this kind of posting had got you banned a long long time ago.

But, since this forum is all about science and skepticism, this is not only tolerated, it’s kept in the highest esteem.

Wellcome.
How so? Be specific. Then you can explain why Oswald murdered Officer Tippit before going on to attempt murdering more officers in the theater when they cornered him. He didn't even have enough sense to get rid of the revolver which was the revolver used to murder Officer Tippit to the exclusion of all other firearms in the world.

Consilience
Null hypothesis
Burden of proof

Words that make CTs run away screaming.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:20 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Translation: I'm not going to read it.

As for the mythical Secret Service Agent on the Grassy Knoll goes, there are only THREE witnesses claiming they encountered one. Here's a fact you and others miss; the Secret Service can deputize agents from other agencies to assist with Presidential security where a large geographic location, such as the motorcade route, was involved.

This meant that on 11/22/63 the Secret Serivice had extra help, and certainly would have had men in Dealey Plaza. These men could have been pulled from the ATF, Customs, USBP, reserve police, and sheriff's deputies. The motorcade route was crawling with them. Since these men are off-duty they do not appear on any official rosters, or listings of posted officers.

In 1963 the Secret Service and ATF ID's were virtually identical. FBI Agent, Robert Gemberling was told that two Customs agents who worked at the Post Office on Dealey Plaza were helping with security while on their lunch break.

Point being, Treasury agent or not, there actually were additional security personnel in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting (many of whom would have been carrying identification similar enough to that carried by SS agents, that they could easily be mistaken at first glance) and the films show dozens of people rushing the Grassy Knoll after the final shots. Those men would have been among them.

There is no mystery
Politely FTFY
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:21 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Did you ask them?
No. Did you?
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:31 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
No. Did you?
He isn't the one making the assumption, you are. Your claim, your burden of proof.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:33 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Consilience
Null hypothesis
Burden of proof
Evidence

Words that make CTs run away screaming.
FTFY
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:37 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
No. Did you?
So why do you pretend to know what the evil conspiracy did in detail?

How did you obtain this information without having a secret source who told you everything? Did they sneak into your house and leave messages in your sock drawer or arrange vegetables in your soup to give you hints?
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:41 PM   #290
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manifesto, posting links to your previous comments is not evidence, although you may think it is. Conjure up some real evidence to support your fantasies.
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:12 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
No government puts assassination plans in writing.
But you know that RFK was sanctioning plans/attempts on Castro?

How do you know this? You have to have something more than fantasies, right?

Quote:
Just as the coup against Diem ended with his assassination, a coup against Castro would also end in the dictator's death.
Diem was the most hated dictator in modern times. Castro was the opposite at the time of Mongoose.

The only thing you can find is contingency plans in case an internal coup on Castro would develop and gain sufficient momentum to legitimatly ask for American military assistance in a civil war situation.

Until that happened, Mongoose was there to do two things:

1. Overtly making life difficult for the Castro regime and hope for a counter revolution in protest of the harsh living conditions created by the US sanctions and US-supported Cuban exile sabotage expeditions to Cuba.

2. Covertly show ’busy-ness’ containing a very real explosive situation among hundreds of thousands of Cuban exiles in the south of US and their allies in the CIA/Mafia/Pentagon/Right Wing/US National Security State.

Meantime, JFK was conducting secret negotiations via proxy to reach some kind of reproachment with Castro and a solution to the conflict before the elections 1964. To use the carrot, not the stick. Aid and lifted sanctions against elections and democracy. A very real possibilty.

Quote:
This right here is why nobody takes you seriously.
Nobody in here, that is.

Somehow that doesn’t count, does it.

Quote:
You make a claim based on your evaluation of what you have read,
Yes. Not like you who make claims on what you have NOT read.

Quote:
and you expect us to accept it as the word of god.
No. I know that you and your brothers and sisters in Faith will accept nothing not sanctioned by the dogma dictated by your Mighty Church.

Quote:
But when I make a claim, based on all of the government documents I have read you mock it simply because it runs counter to your fantasy world view of the Kennedys.
No, I’m simply saying that you should explain how anything contained in your documents supports your stated contention.

”Lots of government documents” ≠ supporting evidence.

It’s what’s written IN the documents that matters.

Quote:
Killing Castro, or any other government leader, would not be part of a recorded conversation, and anyone who has studied the CIA - the real CIA - and the White House NSC would know this to be true. If I'm wrong someone on this board will correct me. Not you, someone who knows more about this kind of thing.
Yes I agree, but you have provided nothing in support of your claim that RFK (or JFK) sanctioned plans and/or attempts of assassinating Castro.

- We know that JFK was distraught when learning of the (CIA) assassination of Patrice Lumumba:



- We know that both JFK and RFK became furious when informed of the CIA/Mob joint venture to assassinate Castro and ordered it to emediatly be terminated.

- We know that CIA lied to JFK/RFK when saying it had already been terminated, when it had not. It continued in secret against the explicit orders from their Commander in Chief.

- We know that French president De Gaulle asked JFK if the US assisted the OAS in their assassinations attempts and coup attempts against him and that JFK answered: ”No, of course not ... but I can’t answer for the CIA”. And yes, CIA backed OAS in all this efforts, knowing that their Commander in chief was against it.

- We know that JFK explicitly stated that Diem had to be protected and brought to safety in US in case of a coup, and that he left the room ash grey when learning of Diems assassination.

- We know that CIA’s E. Howard Hunt allegedly on the orders from president Nixon, fabricated cables that contained orders from JFK to assassinate Diem.

- We know that the CIA lied to it’s Cuban asset Cubela (i.e. AM/LASH), when telling him that his planned assassination attempt on Castro was directly and explicitly sanctioned by RFK.

- We know from the Church hearings that CIA had NO orders, sanctions, ’silent nods’ from neither JFK or RFK to assassinate anyone, including Fidel Castro. And that this conclusion was reached by CIA itself in an internal investigation.

So, Axxman, I’m a bit puzzled of from where you are drawing your conclusions.

Is it from your a... ?

Last edited by manifesto; 12th June 2018 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:45 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
manifesto, posting links to your previous comments is not evidence, although you may think it is. Conjure up some real evidence to support your fantasies.
If my previous posts contains quotes, sources and the argument, it surely is.

If not, point it out, but be specific.
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:52 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
If my previous posts contains quotes, sources and the argument, it surely is.

If not, point it out, but be specific.
You first. Your claim, your burden of proof.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:05 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
...deleted ....
More useless psalms from the church of believe anything I want to.

My my making more stuff up huh.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:22 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
If my previous posts contains quotes, sources and the argument, it surely is.

If not, point it out, but be specific.
Nothing you have posted is in the form of evidence. Peoples statements either eye or ear, bare assertions, quotations from CT sources are not evidence.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:28 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Conclusion. 6 Dallas police officers independently report encounters with false Secret Service men and unknown officers in civilian clothes in emediate proximity to the shootings that day. ...
Asked and answered here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3155

Other people Manifesto doesn't count (Lee Harvey Oswald and Arnold Rowland) said they saw or spoke with Secret Service agents. They didn't. They assumed it. See the above link for further details. Many of the statements Manifesto cites appear to be assumptions as well. If they are assumptions, there is nothing suspicious here.

But they don't need to be assumptions to not be suspicious.

There is a loophole large enough to drive a tractor-trailer through.

The way this is usually expressed in conspiracy books is that none of the President's Secret Service detail remained in Dealey Plaza, all went with the motorcade to Parkland Hospital, and that Sorrels was the first Secret Service agent to return to Dealey Plaza, and he didn't arrive until 12:50-12:55.

The problem with all that is that there were local agents from field offices in Dallas, and in Forth Worth, and other locales in Texas. Eliminating the President's Secret Service detail from Dealey Plaza doesn't eliminate the Secret Service from Dealey Plaza. This is what the conspiracy authors withhold from their readers in their attempt to build a conspiracy argument.

Moreover, as pointed out by other posters above, there are other known law enforcement agents from other agencies that were in Dealey Plaza during the shooting could have been mistaken for Secret Service agents.

The HSCA did their best to narrow down who it was. At the end of the day, they identified two different law enforcement officers as being in Dealey Plaza during the assassination, although both denied identifying themselves as from the Secret Service. One was Frank Ellsworth of the ATF. The other was James Powell of Army Intelligence.


Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
This is clear evidence of the cover-up being in full swing the seconds/minutes after the last shot was fired at Dealey Plaza.
No, it's not. It's based upon assumptions and claims out of context. And refusal to face the facts that eliminating the President's detail from Dealey Plaza means squat in the search for the identity of the supposed Secret Service agent behind the knoll.

After all, if his job was to keep people away from behind the fence, it didn't work.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:29 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Nothing you have posted is in the form of evidence. Peoples statements either eye or ear, bare assertions, quotations from CT sources are not evidence.
I’m starting to get really fed up by your bare assertions of my alleged ”bare assertions”.

If I provide a link or several links to posts where I have already provided evidence in form of citations, sources, links to sources, and argued for its veracity, it’s up to you to explain what’s missing.

And, to do so with specific reference to the posts I have provided links to.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:36 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Asked and answered here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3155

Other people Manifesto doesn't count (Lee Harvey Oswald and Arnold Rowland) said they saw or spoke with Secret Service agents. They didn't. They assumed it. See the above link for further details. Many of the statements Manifesto cites appear to be assumptions as well. If they are assumptions, there is nothing suspicious here.

But they don't need to be assumptions to not be suspicious.

There is a loophole large enough to drive a tractor-trailer through.

The way this is usually expressed in conspiracy books is that none of the President's Secret Service detail remained in Dealey Plaza, all went with the motorcade to Parkland Hospital, and that Sorrels was the first Secret Service agent to return to Dealey Plaza, and he didn't arrive until 12:50-12:55.

The problem with all that is that there were local agents from field offices in Dallas, and in Forth Worth, and other locales in Texas. Eliminating the President's Secret Service detail from Dealey Plaza doesn't eliminate the Secret Service from Dealey Plaza. This is what the conspiracy authors withhold from their readers in their attempt to build a conspiracy argument.

Moreover, as pointed out by other posters above, there are other known law enforcement agents from other agencies that were in Dealey Plaza during the shooting could have been mistaken for Secret Service agents.

The HSCA did their best to narrow down who it was. At the end of the day, they identified two different law enforcement officers as being in Dealey Plaza during the assassination, although both denied identifying themselves as from the Secret Service. One was Frank Ellsworth of the ATF. The other was James Powell of Army Intelligence.




No, it's not. It's based upon assumptions and claims out of context. And refusal to face the facts that eliminating the President's detail from Dealey Plaza means squat in the search for the identity of the supposed Secret Service agent behind the knoll.

After all, if his job was to keep people away from behind the fence, it didn't work.

Hank
Lets for the sake of argument assume this is true, why have no one stepped forward in all these years?

They where reported identified by Dallas police officers behind the world famous picket fence on the world famous grassy knoll, and behind the world famous Texas School Books Depository. And this, seconds/minutes after the shooting of president Kennedy?

Were they living in an isolated cave or just, modest?

Why not make themselves available to the investigation?

Last edited by manifesto; 12th June 2018 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:37 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
it’s up to you to explain what’s missing.
What specifically do you find deficient in all of the debunkings of the HSCA crap?
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:40 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
If1 I provide a link or several links to posts where I have already provided evidence in form of citations, sources, links to sources, and argued for its veracity2, it’s up to you to explain what’s missing3.
1 That's a big if you have yet to support.
2 begging the question.
3 shifting the burden of proof.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:51 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
1 That's a big if you have yet to support.
2 begging the question.
3 shifting the burden of proof.

Hank
Yep he is still trying to use the old trolling standard of demand and deny.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:12 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Lets for the sake of argument assume this is true, why have no one stepped forward in all these years?
You tell me. The point is you have to assume there's something suspicious here for there to be anything suspicious here. If the guy was working for the Secret Service in the Fort Worth office, and showed his Secret Service badge, why would he even be aware there's a problem here? Or if he was aware, why wouldn't he simply take it as an example of the idiocy of the conspiracy theorists in general? He would know he's the Secret Service agent in question, and he would write it off as just people being ignorant of the fact that the Secret Service had more agents than those who travelled in the Presiden't detail that were stationed in Washington. Maybe he doesn't know this is an issue for a tiny percentage of the populace (less than one one-thousandth of one percent, at best). Not everyone reads everything having to do with the JFK assassination. Maybe he is dead. Maybe he doesn't want the publicity. Who knows?

His reasons for not coming forward are his own. The problems with your arguments are all your own. You own the arguments you advance here. You own the problems that go along with them. Show us how you eliminated all possible Secret Service agents. Show us how you determined it couldn't be a misunderstanding or an assumption by those men who reported seeing an agent (like Oswald and Rowland reported).



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
They where reported identified by Dallas police officers behind the world famous picket fence on the world famous grassy knoll, and behind the world famous Texas School Books Depository. And this, seconds/minutes after the shooting of president Kennedy?
And again, while it may be a big deal to you, it may not be a big deal to him. He may not even know it's an issue for you.

Look at Stephen Witt. Witt was in Dealey Plaza holding an open umbrella.Over the years critics have speculated he was either a gunman (with a special CIA invented dart gun hidden inside the umbrella) or a signal man for the shooters (although why they needed to have a guy stand next to a sign if all he was to do was mark the spot the shooting would happen is beyond me, wouldn't the sign work just as well?) Witt didn't know there was any question about his actions between 1963 and 1978 until the HSCA tried to identify him.

Conspiracy Theorist Josiah Thompson explains it all right here: https://youtu.be/iuoZWb9gqv0



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Were they living in an isolated cave or just, modest?
That's two more possibilities.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Why not make themselves available to the investigation?
When did the supposed 'Secret Service' man on the knoll first get raised as an issue? Only after the publication of the 26 Warren Commission volumes of testimony and evidence. Which would have only been after the Commission's investigation was concluded. Kaput. Ended. Finished. Over and Done with. So why would he come forward years later and to whom? Not everyone reads JFK conspiracy literature.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

Last edited by HSienzant; 12th June 2018 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:13 PM   #303
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If anybody wants to see my ultimate masterpost of EOP wound evidence on reddit, see this post on /r/conspiracy (too spicy for the mods of /r/ChangeMyView!) https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/...rs_in_the_jfk/
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:39 PM   #304
HSienzant
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If anybody wants to see my ultimate masterpost of EOP wound evidence on reddit, see this post on /r/conspiracy (too spicy for the mods of /r/ChangeMyView!) https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/...rs_in_the_jfk/
So the same old nonsense.

"ultimate masterpost"?

Ultimate: last in a progression or series : final : their ultimate destination was Paris

Does that mean you won't be posting anymore on this topic?

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

Last edited by HSienzant; 12th June 2018 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:40 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
But you know that RFK was sanctioning plans/attempts on Castro?
I read the documents posted, I've read other documents I have yet to post, and I grew up in a time when all of the Kennedy/Castro history was revealed.

There is an 10, August, 1962 there is a meeting in Rusk's office attended by McNamara, and other members of the Special Group. According to a 14. August memo from William Harvey assassination was discussed and:

Quote:
“It was the obvious consensus at that meeting, in answer to a comment by Mr. Ed Murrow, that this is not a subject which has been made a matter of official record.” Harvey added that he took careful notes on the comments made at the meeting on this issue, “and the Special Group (Augmented) is not expecting any written comments or study on this point.” (Ibid.)
In April, 17, 1967, McCone mentioned the 10, August memo in his retirement letter to Helms where he wrote this:

Quote:
“I recall a suggestion being made to liquidate top people in the Castro regime, including Castro. I took immediate exception to this suggestion, stating that the subject was completely out of bounds as far as the USG and CIA were concerned and the idea should not be discussed nor should it appear in any papers, as the USG could not consider such actions on moral or ethical grounds.” McCone added that immediately after the meeting, he called on McNamara and reemphasized his position on the issue. He noted that McNamara “heartily agreed.” (Central Intelligence Agency,DCI Files: Job 91-00741R, Box 1, Mongoose Papers)
Harvey's 14, August, 1962 memo concurs with McCone's 1967 memo stating:

Quote:
Harvey wrote that in light of the discussion at the August 10 meeting, he called General Lansdaleʼs office and pointed out the “inadmissibility and stupidity” of including the words “including liquidation of leaders” in an August 13 memorandum discussing Alternate Course B that Lansdale circulated to Harvey and other action officers for Operation Mongoose. Harvey noted that he had strongly urged that the phrase be deleted from all existing copies of the memorandum. Lansdaleʼs August 13 memorandum, with the requested excision, is printed as Document 372.
https://history.state.gov/historical...961-63v10/d371

On 7, May, 1962, the CIA General Council met with RFK at his office to discuss payment to Rosseli and Giancana $150,000 for a successful hit on Castro.

All things Assassination can be found here:

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...iles/94465.pdf

I know, you hate reading.
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Old 12th June 2018, 09:44 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If anybody wants to see my ultimate masterpost of EOP wound evidence on reddit, see this post on /r/conspiracy (too spicy for the mods of /r/ChangeMyView!) https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/...rs_in_the_jfk/

I don't think you'll have many takers - but anyhow, here's your trumpet...



... so you can just keep blowing it!
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:03 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I read the documents posted, I've read other documents I have yet to post, and I grew up in a time when all of the Kennedy/Castro history was revealed.

There is an 10, August, 1962 there is a meeting in Rusk's office attended by McNamara, and other members of the Special Group. According to a 14. August memo from William Harvey assassination was discussed and:



In April, 17, 1967, McCone mentioned the 10, August memo in his retirement letter to Helms where he wrote this:



Harvey's 14, August, 1962 memo concurs with McCone's 1967 memo stating:



https://history.state.gov/historical...961-63v10/d371
Still not a word on RFK’s by you alleged involvement in attempts/plans of assassinating Castro.

Why do you continue posting documents that not in any way supports your claims?

Quote:
On 7, May, 1962, the CIA General Council met with RFK at his office to discuss payment to Rosseli and Giancana $150,000 for a successful hit on Castro.

All things Assassination can be found here:

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...iles/94465.pdf

I know, you hate reading.
Are you saying that I shall go through over 300 pages to see if I can find information supporting your claim that RFK was involved in attempts/plans to assassinate RFK?

Well, that’s just silly. Especially considering your well documented habit of posting links to documents not at all containing information supporting your claims.

No. Cite the relevant parts and present them here.

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Old 12th June 2018, 10:10 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
You tell me. The point is you have to assume there's something suspicious here for there to be anything suspicious here. If the guy was working for the Secret Service in the Fort Worth office, and showed his Secret Service badge, why would he even be aware there's a problem here? Or if he was aware, why wouldn't he simply take it as an example of the idiocy of the conspiracy theorists in general? He would know he's the Secret Service agent in question, and he would write it off as just people being ignorant of the fact that the Secret Service had more agents than those who travelled in the Presiden't detail that were stationed in Washington. Maybe he doesn't know this is an issue for a tiny percentage of the populace (less than one one-thousandth of one percent, at best). Not everyone reads everything having to do with the JFK assassination. Maybe he is dead. Maybe he doesn't want the publicity. Who knows?

His reasons for not coming forward are his own. The problems with your arguments are all your own. You own the arguments you advance here. You own the problems that go along with them. Show us how you eliminated all possible Secret Service agents. Show us how you determined it couldn't be a misunderstanding or an assumption by those men who reported seeing an agent (like Oswald and Rowland reported).





And again, while it may be a big deal to you, it may not be a big deal to him. He may not even know it's an issue for you.

Look at Stephen Witt. Witt was in Dealey Plaza holding an open umbrella.Over the years critics have speculated he was either a gunman (with a special CIA invented dart gun hidden inside the umbrella) or a signal man for the shooters (although why they needed to have a guy stand next to a sign if all he was to do was mark the spot the shooting would happen is beyond me, wouldn't the sign work just as well?) Witt didn't know there was any question about his actions between 1963 and 1978 until the HSCA tried to identify him.

Conspiracy Theorist Josiah Thompson explains it all right here: https://youtu.be/iuoZWb9gqv0





That's two more possibilities.





When did the supposed 'Secret Service' man on the knoll first get raised as an issue? Only after the publication of the 26 Warren Commission volumes of testimony and evidence. Which would have only been after the Commission's investigation was concluded. Kaput. Ended. Finished. Over and Done with. So why would he come forward years later and to whom? Not everyone reads JFK conspiracy literature.

Hank
Both the DPD and the deputy sheriffs were ordered on radio by Curry and Decker to the area behind the picket fence on the knoll seconds after the shooting.

IF a federal agent was stationed behind said fence, why not stay put and explain to all the officers that there was nothing to see? Why just disapperar? He had to know that cops came running to the area. Why not inform them of his absolutely critical observations?

It was the assassination of the president of the USA, but he just shows his credentials and walks away?

Really?

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Old 12th June 2018, 10:18 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Both the DPD and the deputy sheriffs were ordered on radio by Curry and Decker to the area behind the picket fence on the knoll seconds after the shooting.

IF a federal agent was stationed behind said fence, why not stay put and explain to all the officers that there was nothing to see? Why just disapperar? He had to know that cops came running to the area. Why not inform them of his absolutely critical observations?
Argument from Incredulity.

Just because you don't understand why something happened they way it did does not make it suspicious
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:43 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Still not a word on RFK’s by you alleged involvement in attempts/plans of assassinating Castro.

Why do you continue posting documents that not in any way supports your claims?
In the real world, minutes of meetings where the Attorney General of the United States is either copied or is an active participant in meetings where aggressive covert action against Cuba coupled with historical testimonies of those surviving participants constitutes grounds for evidence that it is true.

Just as in the case of Diem, where JFK seemed not to grasp the end result of the CIA-backed coup HE APPORVED would end in the murder of Diem and his brother, it is clear that the Kennedy brothers were either working toward Castro's death one way or the other. They were smart guys, and knew how the sausage was made.

That this is somehow contrary to your fantasy view of JFK is your problem

Quote:
Are you saying that I shall go through over 300 pages to see if I can find information supporting your claim that RFK was involved in attempts/plans to assassinate RFK?
If you want to speak from a place of authority instead of being just another lazy, internet CT hack, yes.

Quote:
Well, that’s just silly. Especially considering your well documented habit of posting links to documents not at all containing information supporting your claims.
You don't read anything anyone posts, so how would you know?

Quote:
No. Cite the relevant parts and present them here.
Nope. Big-Boy rules apply here
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:48 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Both the DPD and the deputy sheriffs were ordered on radio by Curry and Decker to the area behind the picket fence on the knoll seconds after the shooting.

IF a federal agent was stationed behind said fence, why not stay put and explain to all the officers that there was nothing to see? Why just disapperar? He had to know that cops came running to the area. Why not inform them of his absolutely critical observations?
Nobody said the agents were stationed behind the fence, they said they encountered them near the fence. In the photographs and films of the assassination there is NOBODY (including a shooter) behind the fence. This means that the agents ran up there with everyone else.

The crime scene was narrowed to the TSBD, and that's where the primary focus shifted within a half hour of the assassination, so names were lost, or never taken because that is where all of the evidence was discovered.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:23 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Diem was the most hated dictator in modern times. Castro was the opposite at the time of Mongoose.
Nobody liked Castro, everyone wanted him dead.


Quote:
1. Overtly making life difficult for the Castro regime and hope for a counter revolution in protest of the harsh living conditions created by the US sanctions and US-supported Cuban exile sabotage expeditions to Cuba.
So you didn't read any of it. Noted.

Quote:
2. Covertly show ’busy-ness’ containing a very real explosive situation among hundreds of thousands of Cuban exiles in the south of US and their allies in the CIA/Mafia/Pentagon/Right Wing/US National Security State.
That "Busy-ness" was resulting in real dead bodies in Cuba.

Quote:
CIA/Mafia/Pentagon/Right Wing RFK/US National Security State.
Fixed.

Quote:
Meantime, JFK was conducting secret negotiations via proxy to reach some kind of reproachment with Castro and a solution to the conflict before the elections 1964.
Yes, and there are supposed to be a meeting between an envoy and Castro on 11/22/63 where the envoy was to hand him a poisoned pen. Almost like JFK was playing both ends of the field.


Quote:
No, I’m simply saying that you should explain how anything contained in your documents supports your stated contention.

”Lots of government documents” ≠ supporting evidence.
They speak for themselves.

Quote:
- We know that both JFK and RFK became furious when informed of the CIA/Mob joint venture to assassinate Castro and ordered it to emediatly be terminated.
They were so upset that they continued Mongoose until LBJ shut it down.

Quote:
- We know that CIA lied to JFK/RFK when saying it had already been terminated, when it had not. It continued in secret against the explicit orders from their Commander in Chief.
Nope.

Quote:
- We know that JFK explicitly stated that Diem had to be protected and brought to safety in US in case of a coup, and that he left the room ash grey when learning of Diems assassination.
No, and I already posted those documents.

Quote:
We know that the CIA lied to it’s Cuban asset Cubela (i.e. AM/LASH), when telling him that his planned assassination attempt on Castro was directly and explicitly sanctioned by RFK.
Because it was.

Quote:
- We know from the Church hearings that CIA had NO orders, sanctions, ’silent nods’ from neither JFK or RFK to assassinate anyone, including Fidel Castro. And that this conclusion was reached by CIA itself in an internal investigation.
And yet in 1975 the US Sentate released a full report called "Alleged Assassination Plots Involving Foreign Leaders":

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...iles/94465.pdf

And guess what? It seems as if the CIA was not completely truthful when it spoke to the Church hearings. Shocking

And it details JFK's and RFK's involvement in plans to kill Castro.

Quote:
So, Axxman, I’m a bit puzzled of from where you are drawing your conclusions.
I'm sure it is very puzzling to a guy like you. There are no easy answers when it comes to JFK, RFK, Castro, the CIA, the Soviets, and anywhere that deals with the history of the covert action world. You, MJ, and the other CTists think you have it all figured out. You type a few words into an internet search engine and then cut and paste whatever factoid you find to support your delusions. In doing so both of you have repeatedly posted links to memos or testimony that when READ IN FULL undermines or disputes your arguments.

I have read around 3,500 documents from the recent National Archives JFK record's release. Most of them are boring. Many of them have nothing to do directly with the assassination nor the investigation of the assassination, but when viewed by subject and scope one gets a clear understanding of what the FBI, CIA, Warren Commission, and the HSCA were looking at as far as avenues that could prove a conspiracy to kill JFK. There are over 52,000 documents left to read through. I doubt I will find anything profound.

Have you read any of the documents from the recent National Archives releases? If not, why?

Quote:
Is it from your a... ?
Nope. Here are the links to the National Archives releases:

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release

I use the Excel file to search before I go online. What are your research techniques?
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:54 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Why do you continue posting documents that not in any way supports your claims?

Are you saying that I shall go through over 300 pages to see if I can find information.
If you really want to learn about a subject, and to rightfully claim to be "well read" in that subject, THEN YOU HAVE TO READ THE MATERIAL, and that means reading stuff that you may not necessarily agree with.

If you want to to remain an ignorant, one-dimensional CT, then continue to do what you have been doing; reading only the things you think you agree with, from the echo chambers of CT loony websites and the pages of CT nutter's books.

You would be surprised if you saw how many JFK conspiracy websites I lurk at, looking for something new. Unfortunately, I am always disappointed; its always tired old stuff that has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:51 AM   #314
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Manifesto's barrage of unsupported assertions about how the Evil Them faked all the evidence implicating Oswald got me thinking, though possibly not in the direction Manifesto intended.
I have two questions:
Firstly, creating this extensive and elaborate trail of false clues to frame LHO would only have been worthwhile if the plotters knew in advance of all of this that JFK would be travelling in front of the Book Depsitory on the fateful day. How far in advance was his itinerary fixed, and who would have known about it?
ETA: Sorry, this was asked a page or so ago, but I still think a little more clarity and detail on this would be useful. The whole plot hangs on it, after all.
Secondly, the Warren Commission was set up one week after the assassination. That doesn't leave very much time to fake all the x-rays, intimidate the doctors and other relevant staff and witnesses to support the plot's narrative, and tidy up any other loose ends.
Is there a chain of custody for the medical evidence and the forensic evidence for the time between JFK's autopsy and the start of the Warren Commission? Do we know where the witnesses were during this week?

The devil is in the details, as they say.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:15 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
If anybody wants to see my ultimate masterpost of EOP wound evidence on reddit, see this post on /r/conspiracy (too spicy for the mods of /r/ChangeMyView!) https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/...rs_in_the_jfk/
Delusional and irrational denial.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:16 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
It was the assassination of the president of the USA, but he just shows his credentials and walks away?

Really?
Argue. Explain. Cite.

Your claim. Your burden of proof.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:22 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
I’m starting to get really fed up by your bare assertions of my alleged ”bare assertions”.

If I provide a link or several links to posts where I have already provided evidence in form of citations, sources, links to sources, and argued for its veracity, it’s up to you to explain what’s missing.

And, to do so with specific reference to the posts I have provided links to.
Here is one of your posts that list links to your previous statements, none contain any evidence.

Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
”Legitimate”? Who’s the chief arbiter, here?

Your mentor Mr. McA ... ?

The HSCA acoustical evidence: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961

The actual in investigation, not the politically contrived conclusions made by Robert Blakey.

1. The investigation shows that it was five, not four, impulse patterns that had a significant match with 0.6 or more binary correlation.

2. That the shot from the knoll was the fatal head shot and did not miss.

3. That the probability for the knoll-shot being random noise or static was 1/100 000, not ca 1/20.

I have argued for this in the following posts (among others):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1338

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1367

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1412

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1482

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1536

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1541

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1587

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1594

Let me know if this is not enough and tell me what additional information you need to see, if any.

But, be specific. Cite. Explain.



[snip]
Cite. Explain and do be specific.

Now I don't much care that you are fed up with my pointing out that you have not provided any evidence for your bare assertions, as you haven't.
You continue to attempt to use the dicta-belt acoustic "evidence". That has been refuted although you don't understand the data for this refutation. You continue to se eye, ear, nose statements concerning the grassy knoll. The may be interesting but as evidence they are sorely lacking.

If you want me to stop posting bare assertions to your comments, then post evidence. It is really very simple.

Last edited by bknight; 13th June 2018 at 05:30 AM. Reason: Added final statement
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:31 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Here is one of your posts that list links to your previous statements, none contain any evidence.



Cite. Explain and do be specific.

Now I don't much care that you are fed up with my pointing out that you have not provided any evidence for your bare assertions, as you haven't.
You continue to attempt to use the dicta-belt acoustic "evidence". That has been refuted although you don't understand the data for this refutation. You continue to se eye, ear, nose statements concerning the grassy knoll. The may be interesting but as evidence they are sorely lacking.
Here is the evidence, the report from the HSCA acoustical investigation: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961

The other links contains my explanations of said evidence and arguments for its veracity.

If you have any complaints on the evidence, explanations or arguments, let me know, but remember, be specific with reference to relevant material.

Wholesale whining are not going to get you anywhere outside your Mighty Church.

Go ahead.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:36 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
HSCA acoustical investigation:
Irrational and delusional denial.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:48 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Both the DPD and the deputy sheriffs were ordered on radio by Curry and Decker to the area behind the picket fence on the knoll seconds after the shooting.
We discussed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post12305687

From their position in the lead car, Curry and Decker would have been very near the overpass as the shots were fired (the lead car was ahead of the Presidential limo). At that point, the knoll would be between those men and the Depository. Shots from the Depository would sound like they were coming from the knoll.

Besides, this is a change of subject (a LOGICAL FALLACY called a red herring). Now you're trying to argue for shots from the knoll, not a man with fake Secret Service credentials.



Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
IF a federal agent was stationed behind said fence, why not stay put and explain to all the officers that there was nothing to see? Why just disapperar? He had to know that cops came running to the area. Why not inform them of his absolutely critical observations?

It was the assassination of the president of the USA, but he just shows his credentials and walks away? Really?
No, not really.
Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
Testimony from Dallas deputy, Sheriff W.W Mabra (report to Sheriff Decker):
(Who encontered what he thought was a ”City Officer” who had told him)

“I was stationed in rail yards and had this entire area in view. Nobody came this way."
No DPD officer was stationed in the yards.
Make up your mind.

You're contradicting yourself again, trying to have it both ways. The man above is argued by you to be a man with fake credentials who told the police there was no problem back there. Now you ask why a real officer would not stay and sound the 'all clear'. Maybe he did. Maybe you're just wrongly assuming what you need to prove.

As an addendum to this, we all recall your twisting in the wind over the overpass / railroad yards distinction, and how you first tried to say those who said the railroad yards didn't mean the overpass, but the knoll. Then you tried to spin it the other way, saying those who said the overpass couldn't be hearing echoes from the Depository shooter, but meant the knoll.

Two city DPD officers (Foster and White) were stationed on the overpass during the shooting.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/foster.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm

The overpass constitutes part of the railroad yards. Again, we see you asserting things that are false or misleading ("No DPD officer was stationed in the yards").

Why do you do this?

I know, because I used to do this.

You get your information from CT web sources, which get their information from CT authors who write books to sell books. And if people want books on conspiracy, by golly those authors will give it to them, even if they have to make up stuff or take it out of context.

And people believe it, when there's clearly a profit motive that calls into question how honest these guys are.

And you fall for it, because you don't research it independently.

Hank
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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
- Manifesto

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