ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

Reply
Old 23rd June 2018, 03:40 PM   #321
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,217
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well because eventually people are going to get immune to baseless accusations and want a little more substance than just anti-Trump propaganda.

Like here, Mueller's "achievements" are looking worse with each passing day, a couple of bs plea deals that look like a set up. Like the Flynn deal. The consensus is growing is that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it.

Here take a look: https://saraacarter.com/what-happene...fbi-interview/
Baseless:

This is well out of date now, but I CBA to update it and it's sufficient


Mar 19 Podesta email hacked
Apr 19 DCLeaks.com registered
May 3 Trump becomes presumptive nominee
June 3 Goldstone contacts Trump Jr. to setup meeting which promises to discuss Clinton
June 7 17:16 Don Jr. confirms meeting w/ Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya
June7 21:13Trump promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt
June 8 Trump posts link to DCLeaks
June 9 Trump Jr, Kushner, Manafort meet with Russian operative
June 9 Trump Jr calls blocked number immediately after meeting claims he can't recall whether his father's number is blocked (others have confirmed it is)
June 12 Assange announces Clinton emails
June 27 Hacked emails posted to DCLeaks
July 11 Trump/Manafort nix pro-Ukranian plank in GOP platform (and lie about it)
Late JulyMalware researchers spot unusual server activity between Trump server and Alfa Bank
Aug 21 Roger Stone writes "it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel"
Oct -7 Pussygate video released
Oct 7 Wikileaks releases Podesta emails (an hour later)
Dec- 29 Flynn Consults With Transition Team, Then Calls Kislyak
Dec 30 Putin Declines to Retaliate
2017  
Jan 15 Pence Says He Is Unaware of Flynn’s Discussions
Jan 26 Sally Yates meets White House Counsel and warns that Flynn is lying and the Russians can prove it - making him a blackmail risk
Feb 9 Flynn’s Conversation Is Revealed by WaPo
Feb 13 Flynn fired
Feb 14 White House Says Flynn Violated President’s Trust
Feb 14 Trump asks FBI Director Comey to drop investigation into Flynn
May 9 Comey is fired
MayDOJ drops money laundering case against client of Natalia Veselnitskaya
May 11Trump tells NBC he considered "this Russia thing" before firing Comey
May 12 Democrats ask questions about the DoJ dropping the money lanudering case

Remember the Watergate investigation took far longer.

Do you want more evidence?

Cohen looks to have flipped too.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2018, 03:53 PM   #322
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,125
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Baseless:

This is well out of date now, but I CBA to update it and it's sufficient


Mar 19 Podesta email hacked
Apr 19 DCLeaks.com registered
May 3 Trump becomes presumptive nominee
June 3 Goldstone contacts Trump Jr. to setup meeting which promises to discuss Clinton
June 7 17:16 Don Jr. confirms meeting w/ Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya
June7 21:13Trump promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt
June 8 Trump posts link to DCLeaks
June 9 Trump Jr, Kushner, Manafort meet with Russian operative
June 9 Trump Jr calls blocked number immediately after meeting claims he can't recall whether his father's number is blocked (others have confirmed it is)
June 12 Assange announces Clinton emails
June 27 Hacked emails posted to DCLeaks
July 11 Trump/Manafort nix pro-Ukranian plank in GOP platform (and lie about it)
Late JulyMalware researchers spot unusual server activity between Trump server and Alfa Bank
Aug 21 Roger Stone writes "it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel"
Oct -7 Pussygate video released
Oct 7 Wikileaks releases Podesta emails (an hour later)
Dec- 29 Flynn Consults With Transition Team, Then Calls Kislyak
Dec 30 Putin Declines to Retaliate
2017  
Jan 15 Pence Says He Is Unaware of Flynn’s Discussions
Jan 26 Sally Yates meets White House Counsel and warns that Flynn is lying and the Russians can prove it - making him a blackmail risk
Feb 9 Flynn’s Conversation Is Revealed by WaPo
Feb 13 Flynn fired
Feb 14 White House Says Flynn Violated President’s Trust
Feb 14 Trump asks FBI Director Comey to drop investigation into Flynn
May 9 Comey is fired
MayDOJ drops money laundering case against client of Natalia Veselnitskaya
May 11Trump tells NBC he considered "this Russia thing" before firing Comey
May 12 Democrats ask questions about the DoJ dropping the money lanudering case

Remember the Watergate investigation took far longer.

Do you want more evidence?

Cohen looks to have flipped too.
A slight quibble with the timeline. Can we consistently refer to Don Jr. as Don Jr? This uses both Don Jr. and Trump Jr. (but the latter is slightly more confusing).
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2018, 04:09 PM   #323
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,402
A general comment on the impeach Trump polls:

It is hard to see what they might mean. Regardless of the situation a large part of the opposing party's membership always will favor impeachment.

And a lot of people see it as a serious step that shouldn't be taken unless there are very significant transgressions on the part of the POTUS. And in the current circumstances this group may not have seen enough to justify an impeachment proceeding of the POTUS.

And a large chunk of the party of the POTUS will not favor impeachment under almost all situations.

And then there is a group that thinks that while they might favor impeachment for some of the stuff the president is known to have done the political situation in the country while the president still enjoys significant support makes it such that an impeachment proceeding would not be in the interest of the country.

And some of the people polled might have nuanced views about an impeachment. For these people what does it mean if they are forced to pick a yes or no answer? Until things shake out a bit I don't think that polls on this question make much sense because interpreting the significance of the poll results is not possible.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2018, 06:29 PM   #324
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,631
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well because eventually people are going to get immune to baseless accusations and want a little more substance than just anti-Trump propaganda.

Like here, Mueller's "achievements" are looking worse with each passing day, a couple of bs plea deals that look like a set up. Like the Flynn deal. The consensus is growing is that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it.

Here take a look: https://saraacarter.com/what-happene...fbi-interview/
All those coffee boys wheeling and dealing with the Russians, amazing.

BTW, just who were the leaders in Trump's campaign administration? We know who all the itsy-bitsy minor players were apparently. Who were the top guys?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2018, 08:34 PM   #325
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,598
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
A general comment on the impeach Trump polls:

It is hard to see what they might mean. Regardless of the situation a large part of the opposing party's membership always will favor impeachment.
So you think a 'large' number of democrats are so blindly partisan that they would call for impeachment no matter what the situation? Even if (for example) Trump fully cooperated with Mueller, the Russia investigation exonerated him and he started acting like a real president? I disagree. I think that most democrats would have a much better opinion of Trump if he showed even a modicum of competence and decency, and then any cries for impeachment would only come from a lunatic fringe.

Quote:
And a large chunk of the party of the POTUS will not favor impeachment under almost all situations.
This is a little more plausible, since many republicans have consistently proven that 'winning' is the only thing that matters to them. Nevertheless, polls are not showing anywhere near lock-step support by republicans.

For example, a recent USA TODAY/Suffolk University Poll found that 58% of Americans would support impeachment if Trump were to pardon himself for a criminal charge related to the Russia's investigation, and that includes 31% republicans. According to the poll just 17% of republicans would support him if he pardoned himself, which suggests the partisanship is much lower than you are suggesting.

Quote:
Until things shake out a bit I don't think that polls on this question make much sense because interpreting the significance of the poll results is not possible.
A poll that shows only only 17% republican support for what Trump does is not insignificant nor hard to interpret. Clearly there is almost universal bipartisan opposition to Trump pardoning himself, with a large proportion of republicans even considering it grounds for impeachment. No doubt opinions will change as things 'shake out', but this does not mean that current polls are useless.

Quote:
And some of the people polled might have nuanced views about an impeachment. For these people what does it mean if they are forced to pick a yes or no answer?
Not sure exactly which polls you are referring too, but most do allow for 'nuanced' answers.

Public opinion polls on impeachment
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 23rd June 2018 at 08:39 PM.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2018, 10:21 PM   #326
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,236
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
So you think a 'large' number of democrats are so blindly partisan that they would call for impeachment no matter what the situation? Even if (for example) Trump fully cooperated with Mueller, the Russia investigation exonerated him and he started acting like a real president? I disagree. I think that most democrats would have a much better opinion of Trump if he showed even a modicum of competence and decency, and then any cries for impeachment would only come from a lunatic fringe.
Better? Sure. Even so, given the abominable performance that Trump's already given, I doubt that opinions of him would get much less negative, though. If he admitted his wrongs, undid the evils that he's done, and added restitution on top, that would help a fair bit, on the other hand. If it were a more normal Republican President in general, though, the calls would largely be limited to the extreme fringe. To give a different example, though, Bush's invasion that was immersed in his lies, of course, raised support for impeachment, but that support was based on his actions, not his party affliation.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 23rd June 2018 at 10:30 PM.
Aridas is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:34 AM   #327
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The consensus is growing is that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it.
I don't see any numbers in the piece you cited. Can you link to the data on which this assertion is based?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:50 AM   #328
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Manafort has requested that the judge in his case disallows any mention of Trump in the courtroom, for fears it may prejudice the jury
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 06:50 AM   #329
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,093
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
It is a problem. Truth is under constant assault. We have entered a new era here. Fox News the National Enquirer and other conservative media outlets are relentlessly propping up Trump without regard to truth. They have created a group of pro-Trump people that have deep unassailable confirmation biases that favor Trump. I don't think the long term consequences of this are knowable right now, but if Trump was younger or healthier he might be around long enough to destroy the American democracy.
Wait! What did you just say?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 07:50 AM   #330
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't see any numbers in the piece you cited. Can you link to the data on which this assertion is based?
yes
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 08:27 AM   #331
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yes
Please do so.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 10:13 AM   #332
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Please do so.
My pleasure

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...US&q=Fbi%20302
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 10:54 AM   #333
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't see anything there that supports the assertion that there is a growing consensus "that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it." Your link merely shows that the term "Fbi 302" has seen a recent spike in the number of times it has been googled, with 100 searches each on the 20th and 21st of this month before returning to the baseline of 0 on the 22nd.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 10:56 AM   #334
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't see anything there that supports the assertion that there is a growing consensus "that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it." Your link merely shows that the term "Fbi 302" has seen a recent spike in the number of times it has been googled, with 100 searches each on the 20th and 21st of this month before returning to the baseline of 0 on the 22nd.
Ok, agree to disagree
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 10:56 AM   #335
beren
Graduate Poster
 
beren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
searching = consensus
That claim id some next level stupif right there.
__________________
Drive-by snark artist.
Deep thinker as long as I can do it quickly with minimal effort.
Band wagon pile-oner
beren is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 11:07 AM   #336
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ok, agree to disagree
Is that data honestly what you based your assertion on?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 11:09 AM   #337
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Wow, look at the growing consensus that the moon is made of cheese
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 11:25 AM   #338
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is that data honestly what you based your assertion on?
I don’t recall making the claim that was the exclusive evidence. In fact this discussion started with an extraordinarily detailed article, but as is common, one ignores the extraordinarily detailed article to pick nits, which I understand is a strategy that is common. I cherish it, because the towering colossus that is the article goes totally unrebutted while we go and nibble crumbs in the kitchen.

In any event, twas part of the evidence.

How about that article, take the time to make a deep dive into yet? You should do so.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 11:42 AM   #339
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don’t recall making the claim that was the exclusive evidence.
I asked you to link to the data on which your assertion was based. If you failed to do so, then that's on you, not on me.

Please will you link to the data on which your assertion is based?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:08 PM   #340
slyjoe
Graduate Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins
Posts: 1,565
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I asked you to link to the data on which your assertion was based. If you failed to do so, then that's on you, not on me.

Please will you link to the data on which your assertion is based?
He lies.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:12 PM   #341
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,551
It's exciting to watch the give and take, the match of wits, during a pinning jello the the wall match.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:14 PM   #342
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,402
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb

Last edited by davefoc; 24th June 2018 at 12:16 PM.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:16 PM   #343
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I asked you to link to the data on which your assertion was based. If you failed to do so, then that's on you, not on me.

Please will you link to the data on which your assertion is based?
I provided two already, you’ll excuse me if I do not waste my time further picking nits.

Ok one more

https://youtu.be/5zyFXYwFsPA

I am such a good guy.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:20 PM   #344
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
It's exciting to watch the give and take, the match of wits, during a pinning jello the the wall match.
Thanks, you had the chance to read the comprehensive article I posted?

Really eye opening stuff.

A bit more background.

https://saraacarter.com/meadows-fbi-...investigation/
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:21 PM   #345
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
More:

Meadows was questioning Department of Justice Inspector General Michael Horowitz, saying “there is growing evidence that 302s [FBI interview reports] were edited and changed. Those 302s, it is suggested that they were changed to either prosecute or not prosecute individuals. And that is very troubling.”
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:26 PM   #346
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,263
Rather than dominate the thread, I think what I will do is post comprehensive evidence that the 302’s were improperly modified. Give avid readers some time to digest it, and I will answer serious thoughtful questions.

Then move on to the next building block of my earlier comment.

Got plenty for you to chew on, so can you let me know what questions you have?
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 12:46 PM   #347
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,402
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
It is a problem. Truth is under constant assault. We have entered a new era here. Fox News the National Enquirer and other conservative media outlets are relentlessly propping up Trump without regard to truth. They have created a group of pro-Trump people that have deep unassailable confirmation biases that favor Trump. I don't think the long term consequences of this are knowable right now, but if Trump was younger or healthier he might be around long enough to destroy the American democracy.
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Wait! What did you just say?
...

I grew up at a time relatively close to the end of WWII and one of the things I wondered about as a child was how the US had managed to avoid Hitler like leadership in its history. I didn't know why then and I still don't but my idea was that some combination of the cultural belief in the importance of the rule of law and the diversity of US religions and cultures prevented any one group from thinking it would be in their interest to impose their wishes on the population as a whole since they might not have the political power to succeed.

Spring forward 50 years or so and a lot of what I believed when I was young about American exceptionalism (I didn't know that term as a child but it is a good term to describe my thoughts back then) has been disproved, starting with the Republican reaction to Richard Nixon. His actions were clearly criminal and I thought either political party would have favored impeachment in that situation. The Republicans didn't. They circled the wagons around their guy against the interests of the country and only relented after the evidence against Nixon became a political liability for themselves.

The second George Bush administration was an eye opener for me. I thought no American president would take the country to war based on clear cut lies. I thought that opposition to torture was a core American value. I also thought that no American president would expend the lives of American soldiers to promote business opportunities for their cronies. I was wrong about all of that and once more my ideas about American exceptionalism were shown to be wrong.

Spring forward to the current situation. The US has elected an addled child like president whose main skill is to tell people lies they want to hear. He is without empathy, ethics or morality and yet he enjoys the support of about 40% of the population. A lot of the techniques he used to get elected and to sustain his support are right out of the Hitler play book. He enjoys the corrupt support of Fox News that is deriving a great deal of income by pandering to and misleading the Trump supporters. This coupled with the support of other media organizations like the National Enquirer are enabling behavior which would have been disabling for any other administration in my lifetime at least.

Trump now is cementing his power base with appointments based on the sole criteria of personal loyalty to the president. Trump is routinely undermining the rule of law abetted by Fox News lies and misrepresentations about the Mueller investigation. Fox News has effectively stopped any opposition to Trump by the Republican Party by making it impossible for Republicans to win elections that oppose Trump.

Altogether a scary situation in my view. But I am optimistic that Trump and his cronies will not succeed in destroying the American Democracy. Not because their morality or ethics limit what they are willing to do. They will fail partially because the American Democratic institutions are holding for right now and because Trump is an old man and he is on the cusp of entering the time when he will not be able to consolidate the gains he is making towards the destruction of the American democracy.

The above is a longer summary of what I meant by the post rwguinn asked about.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb

Last edited by davefoc; 24th June 2018 at 01:19 PM.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 01:59 PM   #348
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,623
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
More:

Meadows was questioning Department of Justice Inspector General Michael Horowitz, saying “there is growing evidence that 302s [FBI interview reports] were edited and changed. Those 302s, it is suggested that they were changed to either prosecute or not prosecute individuals. And that is very troubling.”
Meadows saying "there is growing evidence" is not evidence that there actually is growing evidence. It's evidence of Meadows wanting people to think there is growing evidence, but that could be a lie.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:06 PM   #349
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,623
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
Altogether a scary situation in my view. But I am optimistic that Trump and his cronies will not succeed in destroying the American Democracy. Not because their morality or ethics limit what they are willing to do. They will fail partially because the American Democratic institutions are holding for right now and because Trump is an old man and he is on the cusp of entering the time when he will not be able to consolidate the gains he is making towards the destruction of the American democracy.
I think another cause for optimism is the de-centralised nature of power in the US. States and cities can kick back hard against a fascist putsch in DC.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:10 PM   #350
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,402
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I think another cause for optimism is the de-centralised nature of power in the US. States and cities can kick back hard against a fascist putsch in DC.

I think so as well and that, now that you remind me, is one of the ideas I had about this when I was thinking about it many years ago.


ETA: Capitalism is also a key part of the distribution of power in the US. It is one of the stronger arguments against societies moving towards too much government involvement in business.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb

Last edited by davefoc; 24th June 2018 at 02:14 PM.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:39 PM   #351
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 4,443
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rather than dominate the thread, I think what I will do is post comprehensive evidence that the 302’s were improperly modified. Give avid readers some time to digest it, and I will answer serious thoughtful questions.

Then move on to the next building block of my earlier comment.

Got plenty for you to chew on, so can you let me know what questions you have?
At no point, ever, have you actually refuted anything from the investigation or its findings. All of your posts are a mashing of well poisoning and ad hom's against those involved in the investigation.
__________________
"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:47 PM   #352
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,623
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
ETA: Capitalism is also a key part of the distribution of power in the US. It is one of the stronger arguments against societies moving towards too much government involvement in business.
Capitalism's got its own problems, related, in my opinion, to the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. It's a worldwide problem, shows no sign of slowing, and can only end in tears.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

Last edited by CapelDodger; 24th June 2018 at 02:50 PM. Reason: typo
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:49 PM   #353
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,623
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks, you had the chance to read the comprehensive article I posted?

Really eye opening stuff.

A bit more background.

https://saraacarter.com/meadows-fbi-...investigation/
I've read it and it's utterly vacuous.


ETA : I watched the video, and same thing. Meadows makes claims.



It's another Spygate - remember that one?
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

Last edited by CapelDodger; 24th June 2018 at 02:56 PM.
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:58 PM   #354
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,136
Originally Posted by beren View Post
searching = consensus
That claim id some next level stupif right there.
No, it's not stupid. It's a lie.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 02:59 PM   #355
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,136
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is that data honestly what you based your assertion on?
It's what he based his assertion on. But not honestly.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 03:00 PM   #356
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,623
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is that data honestly what you based your assertion on?
It honestly was.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 03:03 PM   #357
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 20,585
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I provided two already, you’ll excuse me if I do not waste my time further picking nits.

Ok one more

https://youtu.be/5zyFXYwFsPA

I am such a good guy.
The assertion I'm asking you to provide evidence for is that there's a growing consensus "that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it."
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 03:04 PM   #358
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,402
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Capitalism's got its own problems, related, in my opinion, to the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. It's a worldwide problem, shows no sign of slowing, and can only end in tears.

I suspect we have somewhat different views on the optimal mix of capitalism and socialism in a society, regardless I agree with you about the concentration of wealth being a problem, but one of the main reasons it is a problem is that wealthy people use their wealth to gain special advantages by legally and illegally bribing politicians which I see as a kind of socialism for the rich.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 03:36 PM   #359
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 23,623
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
I suspect we have somewhat different views on the optimal mix of capitalism and socialism in a society, regardless I agree with you about the concentration of wealth being a problem, but one of the main reasons it is a problem is that wealthy people use their wealth to gain special advantages by legally and illegally bribing politicians which I see as a kind of socialism for the rich.
I'm a Keynesian, so hardly a firebrand. I'm a firm believer that a reasonably prosperous and secure middle class to which everyone can aspire is the foundation of a sound and progressive society. Keynesian redistribution did produce that, and it's the middle class which has really taken the hit since it was abandoned.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2018, 03:39 PM   #360
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,217
Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
I grew up at a time relatively close to the end of WWII and one of the things I wondered about as a child was how the US had managed to avoid Hitler like leadership in its history. I didn't know why then and I still don't but my idea was that some combination of the cultural belief in the importance of the rule of law and the diversity of US religions and cultures prevented any one group from thinking it would be in their interest to impose their wishes on the population as a whole since they might not have the political power to succeed.

Spring forward 50 years or so and a lot of what I believed when I was young about American exceptionalism (I didn't know that term as a child but it is a good term to describe my thoughts back then) has been disproved, starting with the Republican reaction to Richard Nixon. His actions were clearly criminal and I thought either political party would have favored impeachment in that situation. The Republicans didn't. They circled the wagons around their guy against the interests of the country and only relented after the evidence against Nixon became a political liability for themselves.

The second George Bush administration was an eye opener for me. I thought no American president would take the country to war based on clear cut lies. I thought that opposition to torture was a core American value. I also thought that no American president would expend the lives of American soldiers to promote business opportunities for their cronies. I was wrong about all of that and once more my ideas about American exceptionalism were shown to be wrong.

Spring forward to the current situation. The US has elected an addled child like president whose main skill is to tell people lies they want to hear. He is without empathy, ethics or morality and yet he enjoys the support of about 40% of the population. A lot of the techniques he used to get elected and to sustain his support are right out of the Hitler play book. He enjoys the corrupt support of Fox News that is deriving a great deal of income by pandering to and misleading the Trump supporters. This coupled with the support of other media organizations like the National Enquirer are enabling behavior which would have been disabling for any other administration in my lifetime at least.

Trump now is cementing his power base with appointments based on the sole criteria of personal loyalty to the president. Trump is routinely undermining the rule of law abetted by Fox News lies and misrepresentations about the Mueller investigation. Fox News has effectively stopped any opposition to Trump by the Republican Party by making it impossible for Republicans to win elections that oppose Trump.

Altogether a scary situation in my view. But I am optimistic that Trump and his cronies will not succeed in destroying the American Democracy. Not because their morality or ethics limit what they are willing to do. They will fail partially because the American Democratic institutions are holding for right now and because Trump is an old man and he is on the cusp of entering the time when he will not be able to consolidate the gains he is making towards the destruction of the American democracy.

The above is a longer summary of what I meant by the post rwguinn asked about.
TLDR: What do you find most attractive about Trump?

His mental acuity and level of health.

Is that a fair summary?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.