|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#321 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
I don't put myself in such situations but personally only when I'm drinking around strangers/acquaintances. Rape isn't a very high fear on my list, though, since it's not all that common compared to simpler things like random violence (ex/ being jumped and beaten by strangers - which has happened to me)
But I'm not a woman so I haven't been taught my entire life that being out in the dark, alone, etc. is a unique risk for women, despite men being more likely the victims of most violent crime. What about you? Do you fear being raped in the washroom? Domestic violence shelter? change room? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#322 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,737
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#323 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 47,337
|
|
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#324 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#325 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,903
|
And the irony is... I should be enjoying this.
I've long criticized certain progressives as being far too focused on both labeling of smaller and smaller special categories and of "victim ranking" where everything a nested meta-discussion about who has privilege over whom and I have always sort of had a feeling it was only a matter of time before two groups each claimed victimhood under the other it was going to be fun watching progressives try to make sense of it all and I actually figured gender would be where it would happen. I should enjoy pointing and laughing at two groups both claiming the moral superiority of being the victim. Now that I'm seeing it for real it's a lot more toxic and icky. It's not fun. |
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#326 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,052
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#327 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
I certainly saw a couple of photos of it. It was similar weapons to the things that were exhibited in the San Fransisco library a month or two ago. Maybe the library exhibits inspired their creation, I don't know. It was an overt demonstration from the "punch a TERF" contingent and no attempt was made to prevent it.
I saw a twitter thread where someone was challenging one of the "lesbian with a penis" contingent about this apparent incitement to violence and he started backtracking and claiming it was only symbolic to show these uppity women who was boss, of course nobody would dream of actually using the things, so it was all fine. And besides, it was entirely justified because refusing to recognise a man as a lesbian and even referring to him as "he" is "literal violence" which more than deserves a violent response. It was all pretty unpleasant. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#328 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
No one here is making an argument against TERFs and for trans acceptance to get laid. I think the only person skilled enough to possibly increase their chances of getting laid with a post of any kind on this forum is TragicMonkey.
Your assertion that people don't make that argument in good faith is totally irrelevant here. You can assume that those of use arguing against TERFs actually do believe they are wrong. Some of us just aren't looking here to get some. |
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#329 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
I don't think you even know what you're arguing against. You perceive the "trans cause" as being in support of a group that has been presented to you as marginalised and vulnerable, and so worthy of your support. You don't have the first idea of the concerns of the people who are being negatively impacted by this "cause", whose hard-won rights are being taken away without any consultation, and who are being called every nasty name in the book (including by you) for daring to try to discuss the issue.
I think you're in blind denial of the sort of people who are riding along on the trans bandwagon, and the harm they're doing to women, to children and to genuine trans-sexual people. I think this bubble is going to burst in the short to medium term and it will be regarded as the equivalent of the satanic abuse/recovered memories craze of the late 20th century. The reactions will be interesting, particularly as so many people's right-on support of these bullies has been committed to the internet in perpetuity. So no, I don't think you're insincere, just woefully, ignorantly, blindly one-sided. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#330 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
I'm a little surprised nobody has commented on this yet.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/680443...orkshire-jail/
Quote:
"Her erect penis" - we're not in Kansas any more, Toto. Would someone try to explain why the asserted feeling in this guy's head that he's a woman is sufficient reason to put often vulnerable women prisoners at risk of rape? |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#331 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
Aren't women already at risk of rape in prison?
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#332 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
By the way, for all you people who won't believe that something is happening unless your informant can reel off statstical prevalence studies, there are some figures in this web site.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/ |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#333 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#334 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
I've seen them marginalized and been made vulnerable.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Your concerns are very much of the 'Satanic Panic' type ironically enough. Rationalize my holding my position any way you like; your opinion of that neither interests me nor changes a thing about the arguments presented. It doesn't matter that I think you're having the exact same reaction as white Americans insisting that others gaining rights, acceptance, and civil liberties means you're losing (any of those or other privileges). 'Riding along with'. You know, that is exactly the argument against immigrants. Yeah, there are trans people who are ******** and even sexual predators. This is because, as most everyone knows, trans people are people. Some even like pineapple on their pizza. You're on the wrong side of history, and it isn't even like it's a hard call anymore. I wish I could say your position is even an extreme for TERFs, but it's pretty middle of the road there. |
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#335 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
|
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#336 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
|
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#337 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
The case in question was in England. The Pride march being discussed was in England. The law in England defines rape as penetration by a penis. If someone does not have a penis then they cannot, by definition, be guilty of rape. Women may well assault other women in different ways, but under the jurisdiction under discussion, they cannot possibly rape them. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#338 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#339 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
God save us all from men who have studied feminism.
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#340 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
I expect this has been shown before, but on the left is the group of lesbians that Pride tried to throw out and on the right is an example of those who tried to get them thrown out.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhq28RIXcAAJH4n.jpg:large |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#341 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#342 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#343 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#344 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
|
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#345 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
Google says it's 'assault by penetration'.
It means that if you disagree with Rolfe, your characteristics as a human can be used as a way to dismiss your argument. I'm a cis man. This means that I can't even know of the concerns of cis women, let alone have opinions on them. Even if that's to simply quote cis woman feminists. Yes, it is persistently one of the worst arguments in feminism that many have been trying to fight against, and is one of the reasons for the 'Radical' part of 'TERF'. Sorry, I know my input in these threads consistently becomes the target of the anti-trans acceptance crowd. Probably best to step out again. You know, because I'm a straight cis man who actually cares and thus is a super acceptable target. |
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#346 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#347 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
Although it's maybe not relevant to the discussion, I do wonder if Rolfe thinks the definition should be expanded to include female perpetrators of men via forced envelopment OR penetration.
It seems that lots of people in general minimize male rape (by female perpetrators) and you can see this every week there is a rape of a male student by a female teacher. You'd think feminists would be better at sympathizing but I'm not sure they're better (or worse) than average, considering the lens they use for violence in general (males are violent, females are victims - the end) |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#348 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#349 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#350 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
Why would you wonder that? The definition is what it is. I think there's enough redefining of words (like "woman" and "lesbian") going on in this thread without adding another one. Sexual assault of any kind is bad, m'kay? It doesn't have to have a particular label in order to be bad. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#351 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#352 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
Do you think non-consensual envelopment should have a different specialized name?
and why specifically "with a penis"? Why not "penetration with _something_" if you're going to use such a definition? You don't think it should be called rape when a man uses some other object to penetrate a woman without her consent? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#353 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#354 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
I don't think anything. It's the law. Whether you or I think the semantics should be different is neither here nor there. Different jurisdictions have different names for some offences. In England libel is written defamation and slander is verbal defamation while in Scotland there's no distinction and whether written or verbal it's just defamation. Libel means something completely different in Scots law. Killing someone without the necessary mens rea for it to be murder is manslaughter in England and culpable homicide in Scotland. It's the same actual offence. Do you want to lobby for libel to include slander as well? I mean, don't you think it should be libel just because it's not written down? Do you object to the offence being called manslaughter in England because that doesn't sound as bad as culpable homicide to you, and you know it's bad? See how ridiculous this is? Obviously it's against the law to penetrate someone non-consensually with anything. You're not going to get off just because the word on the charge sheet (or "libel" in Scotland) isn't "rape". It may be that the legal definitions of various sexual offences are different where you are. But we were talking about an incident in England, and the thread is about another incident in England. It's entirely true that a woman in a women's prison in England cannot by definition be raped if there isn't a man in the prison. Why does this outrage you so much? |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#355 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
Well, there's your "rape culture". Male victims are completely erased by law.
The CDC is bad for this iirc as well. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#356 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
Anecdotally, feminists in general are more supportive than the general population, but those who are not are very unsupportive (such as accusing you existing stealing the concern that should be going to true women victims and thus endangering them more).
I was answering what they call rape that doesn't fall under their definition of rape. Which, of course, they wouldn't call rape.
Quote:
|
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#357 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
|
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#358 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,843
|
Fine, I get your point under that specific set of restrictions.
So, your concern originally was that having a trans women would lead to a risk of rape. Is that really such a concern (relative to adding a woman), since the "label doesn't matter" and since all sexual violence is bad (agreed). Does adding a trans woman increase the risk of rape so much more that it overcomes the risk of non-penis sexual violence from an arbitrary female criminal that would have been in their place?? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#359 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,876
|
|
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#360 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,785
|
It isn't rape. It's sexual assault. I don't know what your problem is with this. I noted, correctly, that a woman in prison in England could not be raped if there wasn't a man in the prison. That's it. Of course she could be assaulted in some other way, including sexually, by another woman. But she couldn't be raped. |
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|