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Old 26th July 2018, 05:06 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it was an unprovoked attack. So what? That doesn't suffice. Seriously, that's not how legal self-defense works. There are multiple requirements, and this only provides one of them.

And given the absence of time travel or prescience, we're all stuck with after-the-fact analysis.
Remember that this isn't standard Self -Defense, this is Florida's Stand Your Ground, which is another level of protection for the person using force in a defense situation. It also provides another tier of protection against civil cases brought against the person claiming SYG.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:08 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I agree, I've given my opinion earlier in the thread, no-one seemed particularky interested but for the record it was that the shooter should be charged with voluntary manslaughter.

But I am surprised how many people are handwaving away the fact that the victim initiated a violent physical confrontation. You could count the number of times that I've agreed with TBD on the fingers of a bandsaw operator with myopia and ADD, but he is right to refer to it as an assault, he's right that being pushed like that could cause serious injuries or death, and referring to it in terms like 'schoolyard shove' trivialises it unfairly.

Now personally I can't stand people who park like inconsiderate ********, my experience is that if someone parks with no consideration for the rules or other people, they drive with no consideration for the rules or other people. I have no problem with someone saying "You're parked in a disabled spot, don't be a dick, move", I'd applaud someone for doing it, but then I do live in a country where the vast majority of us aren't walking around with lethal weapons. An argument about parking (which obviously wasn't scarey enough for the driver to lock her doors, roll up her window, or you know, stay in the car) doesn't justify assaulting someone.

The shooting was absolutely wrong, but all three people involved contributed to the situation and it's escalation.
It seems to be a modern thing that in any dispute one side must be absolutely morally pristine, or else criticism of the opposing side is somehow hypocritical. All conflicts are therefore between saints and demons, and the only question is which is which.

It's damn weird. I blame the rising popularity of stupidity.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:11 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It seems to be a modern thing that in any dispute one side must be absolutely morally pristine, or else criticism of the opposing side is somehow hypocritical. All conflicts are therefore between saints and demons, and the only question is which is which.

It's damn weird. I blame the rising popularity of stupidity.
There is no morally pristine on either side here.
However, I would rather the police officer make an arrest, or defer to the prosecutor, based on the evidence, and not based on whether the mob is going to be angry.
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Old 26th July 2018, 06:28 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I agree, I've given my opinion earlier in the thread, no-one seemed particularky interested but for the record it was that the shooter should be charged with voluntary manslaughter.

But I am surprised how many people are handwaving away the fact that the victim initiated a violent physical confrontation. You could count the number of times that I've agreed with TBD on the fingers of a bandsaw operator with myopia and ADD, but he is right to refer to it as an assault, he's right that being pushed like that could cause serious injuries or death, and referring to it in terms like 'schoolyard shove' trivialises it unfairly.
I hear you, any physical violence can get real serious real quick. But the day-in-day-out shovings don't normally do so. Consider what McGlocklin did. Upon seeing some whacko screaming at his partner, he stolls up slowly, not rushing or even trotting. One shove to get the harasser away from his partner and car, and no further aggressive action. That was a rebuke, not an attack. True, legally assault/battery, but the intent appears to be motivated by the schoolyard mentality of 'Get Back Jack', not to actually harm Drejka. There was no rushing up, no punch or even grab; it was a physical warning to knock it off, with absolutely no follow-up. The fairy tales about an imminent World Star stomping are fantasy, and not supported by the video evidence.

This is not to trivialize it; it is to put it in the 'imminent danger of death' context. A shove, with nothing more, is not deadly threatening. Have you ever, or seen another, been shoved hard on a schoolyard, bar, or parking lot? I have. You might think some scrapping is on the horizon if you don't play your cards right, but it does not herald the arrival of the Reaper.

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Now personally I can't stand people who park like inconsiderate ********, my experience is that if someone parks with no consideration for the rules or other people, they drive with no consideration for the rules or other people. I have no problem with someone saying "You're parked in a disabled spot, don't be a dick, move", I'd applaud someone for doing it, but then I do live in a country where the vast majority of us aren't walking around with lethal weapons. An argument about parking (which obviously wasn't scarey enough for the driver to lock her doors, roll up her window, or you know, stay in the car) doesn't justify assaulting someone.
Some people do not back down from scary confrontations. Kind of where the whole SYG thing comes from. Should she have been obligated to retreat from a harasser? I see her at very minimal fault in this, except for the entitled parking choice (yes, very dickish). I forget Florida's assault laws, whether they criminalize based on contact with intent to harm or the candy-ass 'illegal touching' standard. Either way, McGlocklin was in the legal wrong, but I don't think his standalone shoving would earn him more than a fine. Certainly shouldn't earn him a bullet.

Also, much was made over their age differences. Drejka was no doddering old man. He is 47. That's younger than I, and I still pack a punch.

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The shooting was absolutely wrong, but all three people involved contributed to the situation and it's escalation.
True, but one contributed dramatically more than the other two. The one who picked a fight in a parking lot, knowing he was armed, and shot dead the guy who shoved him away from the woman he was screaming at.
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:27 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I hear you, any physical violence can get real serious real quick. But the day-in-day-out shovings don't normally do so. Consider what McGlocklin did. Upon seeing some whacko screaming at his partner, he stolls up slowly, not rushing or even trotting. One shove to get the harasser away from his partner and car, and no further aggressive action. That was a rebuke, not an attack. True, legally assault/battery, but the intent appears to be motivated by the schoolyard mentality of 'Get Back Jack', not to actually harm Drejka. There was no rushing up, no punch or even grab; it was a physical warning to knock it off, with absolutely no follow-up.
What if McGlocklin had shot the guy, as he was harassing the girlfriend? He wouldn't be able to use SYG for himself, but could he say he felt that her life was in danger? Given that Drejka had a gun on him, how could you say he was wrong?

Yeah, I know the difference is black and white, but we've seen cops shoot with far less justification and get defended. As I said, this is a case where the guy actually had a gun, even if he hadn't shown it yet.
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:32 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
[..]That was a rebuke, not an attack. [..] Have you ever, or seen another, been shoved hard on a schoolyard, bar, or parking lot? I have. You might think some scrapping is on the horizon if you don't play your cards right, but it does not herald the arrival of the Reaper.


[..]He is 47. That's younger than I, and I still pack a punch.



[..]The one who picked a fight in a parking lot, knowing he was armed, and shot dead the guy who shoved him away from the woman he was screaming at.
I've cut a lot out just to concentrate on a couple of points because this is where I see things differently to you, firstly, without audio we don't know if anyone was screaming, or even that he was was screaming at her rather than the other way around.

Secondly, if I came out of a shop and my wife was having a stand up row with someone my response would be shouting 'Hey, what the **** is going on here?' that is a rebuke. Not, I'll walk up while they're concentrating on each other and push this guy off his feet. That is an attack. Arguing with someone about parking is 'arguing', physically pushing someone off their feet is a hell of a lot more picking a fight than arguing with someone.

I'm forty seven, I've been pushed over, tripped, thrown (often with my consent doing martial arts), fallen off motorbikes, skateboards, out of trees and most recently off a mountain board at reasonably high speed, you know what, it was a damn sight easier getting back up again when I was in the schoolyard. If I got knocked over unexpectedly like that in a parking lot today I think I would be hurt, disoriented, feel very vulnerable and might very well over estimate the threat I was under.

Once again, I think the shooter should be charged, he acted stupidly and irresponsibly and took someone's life, but he wasn't the only one to act like an ******* that day and all three of them escalated the situation.

I'd still be interested to know why he seems to have had a particular thing about disabled spaces.
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Old 26th July 2018, 07:33 AM   #367
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The trivialization of the initial attack, the victim blaming, the false appeals to emotion, the deliberate misrepresentations.

"But the day-in-day-out shovings don't normally do so."

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but to splay out a guy on the concrete like that a'n't no "day to day" "shovings."
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:26 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The trivialization of the initial attack, the victim blaming, the false appeals to emotion, the deliberate misrepresentations.

"But the day-in-day-out shovings don't normally do so."

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but to splay out a guy on the concrete like that a'n't no "day to day" "shovings."
None of that is even relevant to the case for self-defence. You keep wanting us to return our attention to the initial attack. Fine, it can be as bad as you want to describe it and it can be as bad as your imagination allows you to believe it would have turned out.

However, the severity of the initial attack, and the power of your imagination are rendered meaningless by the fact that the attack had stopped. Even you agree to this!

As the attack had stopped there was no self-defence justification.

Now, let me guess, your response to this is to say that the sheriff didn't think so, or that the initial attack was really, really, really bad, or that on World Star there are some terrible things, but all of those miss the legal point.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:02 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

However, the severity of the initial attack, and the power of your imagination are rendered meaningless by the fact that the attack had stopped.
Lets break it down, shall we because there is something big missing:

"However, the severity of the initial attack, and the power of your imagination {ed. Note the irony} are rendered meaningless by the fact that in my opinion the attack had stopped."

Fixed that for you.

Weird how many folks think their opinions are facts in connection with this assault.

The stomping was prevented by a guy with a gun.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lets break it down, shall we because there is something big missing:

"However, the severity of the initial attack, and the power of your imagination {ed. Note the irony} are rendered meaningless by the fact that in my opinion the attack had stopped."

Fixed that for you.

Weird how many folks think their opinions are facts in connection with this assault.

The stomping was prevented by a guy with a gun.
Sure. The attack was stopped by the guy with the gun. But it was stopped before he fired the gun. Seriously, it's not just a matter of opinion, it's right there on the video. You can see the target moving away from the shooter before he fires the gun. Showing the gun was sufficient. Firing the gun at that point was disproportionate to the threat he faced at the moment he fired. Threats he faced previously don't matter.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:43 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The trivialization of the initial attack
I haven't trivialized it. I've explicitly said that it was assault. Furthermore, we could even posit that McGlockton was explicitly trying to kill Drejka with that initial push, and that he had a high probability of succeeding, and it STILL wouldn't change my conclusion. The law doesn't allow you to defend against past threats.

Quote:
the victim blaming
I have never blamed Drejka for getting pushed.

Quote:
the false appeals to emotion
I have never appealed to emotion here.

Quote:
the deliberate misrepresentations.
I haven't misrepresented anything, deliberately or otherwise.

Quote:
Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but to splay out a guy on the concrete like that a'n't no "day to day" "shovings."
Sure. Like I said, we could even posit that McGlockton attempted to murder Drejka with that push and almost succeeded. It still wouldn't make Drejka's shooting justified.

For a more extreme example of why that's the case, here's another example where claims of self defense fail:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/0...mes-aggressor/
Sumpter was assaulted by three other people. He stabbed one of them, and claimed self defense. But he was convicted for the stabbing. Why? Because his attackers disengaged, and he chased them down. Legally speaking, that creates a second fight, one in which he was the aggressor. And that's when the stabbing took place.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:46 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lets break it down, shall we because there is something big missing:

"However, the severity of the initial attack, and the power of your imagination {ed. Note the irony} are rendered meaningless by the fact that in my opinion the attack had stopped."

Fixed that for you.

Weird how many folks think their opinions are facts in connection with this assault.

The stomping was prevented by a guy with a gun.
Dear god, its so beautiful. Look how the second sentence follows the first without an iota of self-reflection...I mean, the vacuity, the glassy-eyed doublethink...it's magnificent...
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Remember that this isn't standard Self -Defense, this is Florida's Stand Your Ground, which is another level of protection for the person using force in a defense situation.
This doesn't have anything to do with Stand Your Ground. Drejka doesn't need SYG to absolve him of a duty to retreat because he didn't have the ability to retreat, since he had been knocked to the ground. The issue here has nothing to do with his duty to retreat, but with proportionality. The force he used was not proportional to the threat he faced at the moment that he used that force.
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Old 26th July 2018, 09:55 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dear god, its so beautiful. Look how the second sentence follows the first without an iota of self-reflection...I mean, the vacuity, the glassy-eyed doublethink...it's magnificent...
Well, except for the whole part about the fact that I acknowledge it is my opinion. Sure my opinion is carefully crafted based on painstaking analysis of the facts and is consistent with the views of law enforcement, but all the same it is just that.

Now, where it gets good is that we take what you just wrote ... "the vacuity, the glassy-eyed doublethink...it's magnificent..." and apply it to those who are declaring that it is fact that the attack had ended and openly marvel at the self-own.

"it is like stars....."
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:00 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Now, where it gets good is that we take what you just wrote ... "the vacuity, the glassy-eyed doublethink...it's magnificent..." and apply it to those who are declaring that it is fact that the attack had ended and openly marvel at the self-own.
But isn't that what you have claimed yourself? You know, when you said the attack "was stopped only because the gun was drawn".

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Old 26th July 2018, 10:12 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I've cut a lot out just to concentrate on a couple of points because this is where I see things differently to you, firstly, without audio we don't know if anyone was screaming, or even that he was was screaming at her rather than the other way around.
Fair enough, actual screaming is not in evidence. The witness who reported to the clerk that there was a guy harassing a woman in the lot is seem on video. He looks to be about 20 or so feet away, but seems alarmed. This seems to suggest that it was more than a conversation. Would you agree that it was likely pretty loud and heated to draw this attention and reporting?

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Secondly, if I came out of a shop and my wife was having a stand up row with someone my response would be shouting 'Hey, what the **** is going on here?' that is a rebuke. Not, I'll walk up while they're concentrating on each other and push this guy off his feet. That is an attack. Arguing with someone about parking is 'arguing', physically pushing someone off their feet is a hell of a lot more picking a fight than arguing with someone.
I'm not suggesting McGlocklin made a smart move, and your response is of course the preferable and more civilized. But if you were to pick a fight with a woman in a car (with her infants inside) out of the blue, and the father comes up and pushes you away, can you see how that is not exactly an attack? Far closer to over-protectiveness in my book, while again not excusing it.

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I'm forty seven, I've been pushed over, tripped, thrown (often with my consent doing martial arts), fallen off motorbikes, skateboards, out of trees and most recently off a mountain board at reasonably high speed, you know what, it was a damn sight easier getting back up again when I was in the schoolyard. If I got knocked over unexpectedly like that in a parking lot today I think I would be hurt, disoriented, feel very vulnerable and might very well over estimate the threat I was under.
That's fair, kids bounce back. But same scenario: you walk up and pick a fight with a woman and her infants with a gun in your waistband (Drejka is reported to have picked the same fight with others at this same location, and the Sheriff says he was reported to have brandished his gun in an earlier road rage incident). This guy was ready and prepared for serious confrontation. That he went ahead and initiated.

Quote:
Once again, I think the shooter should be charged, he acted stupidly and irresponsibly and took someone's life, but he wasn't the only one to act like an ******* that day and all three of them escalated the situation.

I'd still be interested to know why he seems to have had a particular thing about disabled spaces.
Illegal parking is a great way to pick a fight. People that do so tend to be arrogant and entitled, making them great candidates to get rowdy with. Or you just get high and mighty and give them a lecture or browbeating. I doubt it had any real significance other than a convenient justification.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:16 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, except for the whole part about the fact that I acknowledge it is my opinion. Sure my opinion is carefully crafted based on painstaking analysis of the facts and is consistent with the views of law enforcement, but all the same it is just that.

Now, where it gets good is that we take what you just wrote ... "the vacuity, the glassy-eyed doublethink...it's magnificent..." and apply it to those who are declaring that it is fact that the attack had ended and openly marvel at the self-own.

"it is like stars....."
Ok. Present your evidence thay convinces you of the inevitable World Star Hip Hop stomping. The video shows the shove....then nothing. What else makes you state so confidently that more was to come?
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:25 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What if McGlocklin had shot the guy, as he was harassing the girlfriend? He wouldn't be able to use SYG for himself, but could he say he felt that her life was in danger? Given that Drejka had a gun on him, how could you say he was wrong?
I don't think some guy screaming passed the reasonable person standard for fear of imminent death, so McGlocklin couldn't have relief on that. If both were armed, whoever drew first would likely be the prime escalator, no?

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Yeah, I know the difference is black and white, but we've seen cops shoot with far less justification and get defended. As I said, this is a case where the guy actually had a gun, even if he hadn't shown it yet.
Well, cops are a different problem. They have sworn duties and stuff that afford them the benefit of the doubt in the eyes of many courts. And yes, cops mowing down civilians is a separate and severe problem in its own right.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:42 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

"However, the severity of the initial attack, and the power of your imagination {ed. Note the irony} are rendered meaningless by the fact that in my opinion the attack had stopped."

Fixed that for you.

Weird how many folks think their opinions are facts in connection with this assault.

The stomping was prevented by a guy with a gun.
The "stomping" is in your mind. You talk about others' "opinions," then invent things for yourself.

Another poster dismissed me by strawmanning my statement of being shoved. I DO NOT DISMISS THE FACT THAT SHOVING IS VIOLENT AND CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY.

The point is, there was no reason to shoot another person dead.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:57 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post

The point is, there was no reason to shoot another person dead.
The actual point was that there was no reason to violently shove that person to the ground.

The shover created a highly chaotic situation, triggering a basic fight or flight reaction.

lots of things he could have done to deescalate the situation, he chose to escalate an argument to a physical attack, and paid the price.

He chose poorly.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:00 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
The point is, there was no reason to shoot another person dead.

I disagree. The way the law regarding self defence and firearms seems to work in the US, there are an awful lot of reasons to shoot another person dead that will stand up as 'self defence'.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:02 AM   #382
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair enough, actual screaming is not in evidence. The witness who reported to the clerk that there was a guy harassing a woman in the lot is seem on video. He looks to be about 20 or so feet away, but seems alarmed. This seems to suggest that it was more than a conversation. Would you agree that it was likely pretty loud and heated to draw this attention and reporting?



I'm not suggesting McGlocklin made a smart move, and your response is of course the preferable and more civilized. But if you were to pick a fight with a woman in a car (with her infants inside) out of the blue, and the father comes up and pushes you away, can you see how that is not exactly an attack? Far closer to over-protectiveness in my book, while again not excusing it.



That's fair, kids bounce back. But same scenario: you walk up and pick a fight with a woman and her infants with a gun in your waistband (Drejka is reported to have picked the same fight with others at this same location, and the Sheriff says he was reported to have brandished his gun in an earlier road rage incident). This guy was ready and prepared for serious confrontation. That he went ahead and initiated.



Illegal parking is a great way to pick a fight. People that do so tend to be arrogant and entitled, making them great candidates to get rowdy with. Or you just get high and mighty and give them a lecture or browbeating. I doubt it had any real significance other than a convenient justification.
Again you're equivocating a verbal disagreement with 'picking a fight', I've had enough verbal arguments with people over inconsiderate behaviour that haven't degenerated into any kind of physical interaction at all. She got out of her car to argue back at him, if she thought he was a threat at that time to her or her children why not just move the damn car. If he was out to pick an actual fight the other two people involved did a great job at enabling him. I also disagree that it's a particularly good way to pick a fight compared to many others, it's too easy for people to admit they're in the wrong and move or just roll up the windows and ignore you. I think there's more there.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:12 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The actual point was that there was no reason to violently shove that person to the ground.

The shover created a highly chaotic situation, triggering a basic fight or flight reaction.

lots of things he could have done to deescalate the situation, he chose to escalate an argument to a physical attack, and paid the price.

He chose poorly.
Yes, shoving a person is scary. A bullet should not be the consequence.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:12 AM   #384
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True or False quiz:

1) McGlocklin assaulted Drejka
2) McGlocklin was about to kick/stomp Drejka after throwing him to the ground
3) McGlocklin was about to attack Drejka after the gun was drawn

It seems clear (to me) that the answers to the above are:

1) T
2) ?
3) F
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I disagree. The way the law regarding self defence and firearms seems to work in the US, there are an awful lot of reasons to shoot another person dead that will stand up as 'self defence'.
I live in a county where many people wear firearms. They don't use them in these situations. They don't cause them, either.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:19 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
True or False quiz:

1) McGlocklin assaulted Drejka
2) McGlocklin was about to kick/stomp Drejka after throwing him to the ground
3) McGlocklin was about to attack Drejka after the gun was drawn

It seems clear (to me) that the answers to the above are:

1) T
2) ?
3) F
I rarely agree with you, but that seems accurate.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:20 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
True or False quiz:

1) McGlocklin assaulted Drejka
2) McGlocklin was about to kick/stomp Drejka after throwing him to the ground
3) McGlocklin was about to attack Drejka after the gun was drawn

It seems clear (to me) that the answers to the above are:

1) T
2) ?
3) F
Keep in mind, the answer must be from the perspective of the person who just got blindsided and slammed to the ground. One can not by clear evidence establish that his state of mind was not reasonable.

What we do know is that the initial attack could and should have been avoided.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:22 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Keep in mind, the answer must be from the perspective of the person who just got blindsided and slammed to the ground. One can not by clear evidence establish that his state of mind was not reasonable.

What we do know is that the initial attack could and should have been avoided.
No, the answer is "reasonable fear."

You don't get to kill someone for your own fears.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:28 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Again you're equivocating a verbal disagreement with 'picking a fight', I've had enough verbal arguments with people over inconsiderate behaviour that haven't degenerated into any kind of physical interaction at all
How is that equivocating? Have you never heard someone say they got in a fight with the wife or coworker? Doesn't imply physical violence, right? If it sounds odd to you, I'm happy to switch to 'confrontation' or whatever. Not just an argument, though. We have arguments on these threads. Drejka had more than a difference of opinion going on.

Quote:
She got out of her car to argue back at him, if she thought he was a threat at that time to her or her children why not just move the damn car.
SYG in practice. Some whacko walks up and picks a fight...er, initiates a confrontation with me, especially with my kids around, and no way I am turning turtle. He's staying where I can see him and with me standing if at all possible. Why would you trust Captain Cuckoo to play nice when he is looking for unsolicited confrontation? I'd be assuming he planned ti ramp it up with the parking as a loose justification.

Quote:
If he was out to pick an actual fight the other two people involved did a great job at enabling him. I also disagree that it's a particularly good way to pick a fight compared to many others, it's too easy for people to admit they're in the wrong and move or just roll up the windows and ignore you. I think there's more there.
Yes, but parking i n a handicapped spot gives him the moral high ground. He looks like a good guy, even when gunning... er, looking for trouble. Beats the hell out of claiming someone bumped into you or whatever alternate excuse he might use to pick a confrontation.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:28 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
No, the answer is "reasonable fear."
Why did you highlight part of my post and ignore the following sentence?

"One can not by clear evidence establish that his state of mind was not reasonable."

weird
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:50 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I live in a county where many people wear firearms. They don't use them in these situations. They don't cause them, either.

I live in a country where I only see firearms at the airport.


What freaks me out about this is that the legislation does not allow for the shooter to be detained or arrested. Claiming self defence when the cops rock up means they literally cannot arrest the, er notatallasuspect.


Or, at least, that's the way it seems to me. I could me misinterpreting some of the information in this thread.
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:10 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
True or False quiz:

1) McGlocklin assaulted Drejka
2) McGlocklin was about to kick/stomp Drejka after throwing him to the ground
3) McGlocklin was about to attack Drejka after the gun was drawn

It seems clear (to me) that the answers to the above are:

1) T
2) ?
3) F
#2 should be false for exactly the same reason #3 is. What he was about to do can only be inferred. There was no reason to believe he was going to attack in either 2 or 3. There is additional support for 3, in that he was actively retreating, but without a positive forward move with fists clenched or similar, there is zero reason to assume he was attacking after the shove, so the default conclusion should be that he was not
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:16 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because some of us think it is funny when people try to deliberately mislead by taking a clause out of context.

WorldStar style stomping was stopped by a guy with a gun
The context is still there. I still like what you are saying. Thank you for work here in showing this was murder.
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:18 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I live in a country where I only see firearms at the airport.


What freaks me out about this is that the legislation does not allow for the shooter to be detained or arrested. Claiming self defence when the cops rock up means they literally cannot arrest the, er notatallasuspect.
You also get that sweet immunity from wrongful death lawsuits.
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:18 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The context is still there. I still like what you are saying. Thank you for work here in showing this was murder.
i don't think the dead guy can be charged with felony murder, but thanks anyhow
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:32 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
True or False quiz:

1) McGlocklin assaulted Drejka
2) McGlocklin was about to kick/stomp Drejka after throwing him to the ground
3) McGlocklin was about to attack Drejka after the gun was drawn

It seems clear (to me) that the answers to the above are:

1) T
2) ?
3) F
Well put.
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:33 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous
It's like we all agree the sky is blue but we can't agree on how to pronounce the word blue. Or something like that . . .
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:38 PM   #398
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To me, one thing seems very clear: This entire situation came about because one person had a gun on them. Without that gun as backup, would he have been so confrontational in the first place? Certainly, the other guy wouldn't have been dead.

Then again, we don't know what the dead guy would have done without the presence of the gun. He may very well have finished him off if he didn't see a gun pulled.

Still: I can only see this as a gun emboldening someone to confront others. That's the First Cause, IMHO. Kinda makes me rethink the gun issue somewhat. . .
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:44 PM   #399
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One thing is clear: Florida is frightening. Other states would be justified in shooting it.
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:47 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What freaks me out about this is that the legislation does not allow for the shooter to be detained or arrested. Claiming self defence when the cops rock up means they literally cannot arrest the, er notatallasuspect.
I tuned out when the thread became a TBD trollfest, but was he really not detained for a substantial time while investigations were performed? If so, how is that even possible? Was it established that he wouldn't flee prior to a possible court appearance?

I understand that SYG might be a valid defence in this case, but you need a frikkin' defendant in the first place.
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