ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 21st July 2018, 10:08 PM   #41
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,526
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Edited by jsfisher:  ...SNIP... Moderated content redacted.

In any other state in the USA the man would be in jail right now. Except maybe Texas. And that is a maybe.

So, logically, if every other state does not have this ****, then Florida law IS different.
You just spout off like that without checking things first, on a skeptics forum? In fact, stand your ground laws are generally the rule in the USA:

Quote:
The states that have legislatively adopted stand-your-ground laws are Alabama,[5] Alaska,[6] Arizona,[7] Florida,[8] Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa,[9] Kansas,[10] Kentucky, Louisiana,[7] Michigan,[7] Mississippi, Missouri,[11] Montana,[7] Nevada, New Hampshire,[7] North Carolina,[12] Oklahoma,[7] Pennsylvania,[13] South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee,[7] Texas,[14] Utah,[15] West Virginia[7], and Wyoming.[16]

The states that have adopted stand-your-ground in practice,[17] either through case law/precedent, jury instructions or by other means, are California,[18][19] Colorado,[20][21] Illinois, New Mexico, Oregon, Virginia,[22] and Washington.
That's over 2/3rds of the states. But I suspect the outcome would be the same in many of the "duty to retreat" states. At the point the video ends, the shooter has already been the victim of assault and battery, captured on video.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by jsfisher; 22nd July 2018 at 07:33 AM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 10:12 PM   #42
This is The End
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,403
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Seems like a classic case of stand your ground

Using that logic the woman would also be justified in shooting the stranger who appeared at her car window yelling violently.

Why is she not also allowed to be in fear for her life? Oh yeah. I forgot. Because of racism.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 10:22 PM   #43
This is The End
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,403
What if there were a 50 year old white couple in the car? The man goes into the gas station. A 25 year old black male approaches the car and starts yelling violently at the 50 year old white woman in the car. The white man sees this from inside the gas station, runs outside to push the 25 year old black male away from his 50 year old white wife. The 25 year old black male then shoots the 50 year old white male dead.

Guess who would be in jail right now? Even in Florida. We wouldn't even know of the story right now.

The husband had no idea if the man outside was committing a robbery or what. That is the important point. He is justified in running outside and removing the violently yelling man from his wife via one shove. I believe the state attorney will do the right thing because of that.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 10:26 PM   #44
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,292
Originally Posted by This is The End
Edited by jsfisher:  ...SNIP... Moderated content redacted.
I posted the law above, it's not different to most of the rest of the US. The only difference to some States is that the threatened person doesn't have a duty to retreat from a place they are legally allowed to be.

Here's the law, again.

Quote:
(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
This is Califorina's

Quote:
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

(1) When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.
or New York's

Quote:
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force.  Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating;  except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:

(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor;  or

(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30 ;  or

(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery;  or

(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.
Here's Ohio's no duty to retreat....

Quote:
(B) For purposes of any section of the Revised Code that sets forth a criminal offense, a person who lawfully is in that person's residence has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person's residence, and a person who lawfully is an occupant of that person's vehicle or who lawfully is an occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense or defense of another.
so yeah...
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by jsfisher; 22nd July 2018 at 07:34 AM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 10:41 PM   #45
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 41,994
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Look at the video. The dead guy blindsides the shooter. Seems like a classic case of stand your ground, except that the shooter couldn't stand his ground, he had already been knocked over.

From other comments, it sounds like the shooter is something of a handicapped parking spot activist; I'm assuming since neither of the articles I read on the incident mention it explicitly, the car in question did not have a handicapped plate.
From some of the posts of yours, you sound like someone who would take no nonsense from anyone harassing a loved one. What would you do? Meekly ask the culprit to desist? Or would you take some physical action? My money’s on the latter. Was the action of the victim so unreasonable?

Oh, and “blindsided”? This has been used a few times here. Are the Marquis of Queensbury rules to be invoked when someone decides to physically intervene?
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 10:49 PM   #46
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,526
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Using that logic the woman would also be justified in shooting the stranger who appeared at her car window yelling violently.

Why is she not also allowed to be in fear for her life? Oh yeah. I forgot. Because of racism.
No, actually she would have something of a case. From what I've read, the shooter seems to be a fanatic about the whole handicapped spot thing. I used to be a dick about people parking in bike lanes, so I can sympathize to a bit. But instead she gets out of the car and starts arguing with the guy, indicating that she was not in fear. And I do think "Yelling violently" is a bit much; we don't have audio of the incident.

And I can sympathize with the concept that the deceased comes out to find his girlfriend in an argument with a guy he's going to defend her. But he goes way beyond that. Knocking the shooter over that violently on a paved parking lot--you could easily give him a concussion.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 11:10 PM   #47
mikado
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,920
American idiocy. Very sad.
What happened to Camelot?
Wphow the hell did they end up here?
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable.
mikado is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 11:11 PM   #48
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,526
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
From some of the posts of yours, you sound like someone who would take no nonsense from anyone harassing a loved one. What would you do? Meekly ask the culprit to desist?
I would shoot him dead. No, seriously, there's a simple other answer. "What's the problem here? Oh, is this a handicapped spot? We'll be out of here in a moment." Or, you could always not park in a handicapped spot. I know, I know that's following the Marquis of Parksbury rules.

Quote:
Or would you take some physical action? My money’s on the latter. Was the action of the victim so unreasonable?
I'd say that's pretty clearly several years in prison. How hard is it to deescalate the situation?

Quote:
Oh, and “blindsided”? This has been used a few times here. Are the Marquis of Queensbury rules to be invoked when someone decides to physically intervene?
Who was the first person to use physical force? Watch the video again, just in case you need to be sure. And yeah, blindsided actually matters in assault cases. It seems there's some sort of quaint custom that hitting somebody unawares is nastier than facing off with them in a gentlemanly fashion. Might have something to do with it being more hazardous to the victim.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 21st July 2018 at 11:58 PM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 11:11 PM   #49
chrispy
Critical Thinker
 
chrispy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mexico/Guatemala
Posts: 468
This appears to be bull-****. The man was pushed over, and the deceased was standing away, not attacking, and telling the man on the ground to get **********... and then he was executed. Keep lookin' good, Florida. Keep Lookin' good.
chrispy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 11:33 PM   #50
This is The End
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,403
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The only difference to some States is that the threatened person doesn't have a duty to retreat from a place they are legally allowed to be.

I love how "the only difference" you bring up is the exact ****** difference in question".

I'm not playing this damn game.

The funniest part about this line of damage control is that every single mainstream media news outlet would have to be wrong about Florida being different as well.

Oh wait.

I just described Trump nation.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 11:40 PM   #51
This is The End
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,403
It's only on page 2 and the line of damage control is clear.

Normalize the law. Try and make it appear that the law is just like it is in every other state.

Don't fall for that ****** ****.

Don't forget how easy it is to show them for what they are:

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
What if there were a 50 year old white couple in the car? The man goes into the gas station. A 25 year old black male approaches the car and starts yelling violently at the 50 year old white woman in the car. The white man sees this from inside the gas station, runs outside to push the 25 year old black male away from his 50 year old white wife. The 25 year old black male then shoots the 50 year old white male dead.

Guess who would be in jail right now? Even in Florida. We wouldn't even know of the story right now.
__________________
________________________
This is The End is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2018, 11:59 PM   #52
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,526
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It's only on page 2 and the line of damage control is clear.

Normalize the law. Try and make it appear that the law is just like it is in every other state.

Don't fall for that ****** ****.

Don't forget how easy it is to show them for what they are:
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 12:22 AM   #53
Hungry81
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,770
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, shooting someone is crazy and should not be the default response to being shoved
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 12:36 AM   #54
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,526
Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Yes, shooting someone is crazy and should not be the default response to being shoved
You seem like a reasonable person. Since the OP is apparently incapable of explaining the vast differences between Florida's "stand your ground law" and the similar laws in 33 other states, perhaps you could take on the challenge. Do you agree with his claim that in no other state, (except perhaps Texas) would the shooter be free?

And let's not call it a shove--it was a push, a tap, a horizontal adjustment to the shooter's vertical ambience.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 22nd July 2018 at 12:38 AM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 01:24 AM   #55
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 16,734
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
That's the problem right there.

All kidding aside, do you have a link? I'm too lazy to google.

Never mind, I found this one:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/public...pace_170174041

Sounds like the white guy was looking for trouble. McGlockton shouldn't have shoved him, but he didn't deserve to get shot for it.
The guy was clearly backing away when he got shot. The shooter was clearly no longer in any peril when he fired.

I also have to wonder if the situation escalated because the shooter had a gun. Unarmed, would he have been so aggressive? I guessing not. Likely another case of firearm used as substitute for social skills.

Last edited by Craig4; 22nd July 2018 at 01:27 AM.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 02:48 AM   #56
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 38,565
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The guy was clearly backing away when he got shot. The shooter was clearly no longer in any peril when he fired.

I also have to wonder if the situation escalated because the shooter had a gun. Unarmed, would he have been so aggressive? I guessing not. Likely another case of firearm used as substitute for social skills.
Hearsay evidence from the guy who worked in the store but same dood previously threatened to shoot someone else while arguing over parking in that same spot (without a handicap tag/plate).

Seems that yeah, his piece makes him a little more confrontational.


I have to say that I really appreciate TBD's analogy with NFL penalties. Can we arm quarterbacks in Dolphins games? "Well, he'd just pushed me to the ground and his buddy had knocked over my center and right tackle so I was in fear of my well-being or even my life. So, yeah, I shot 'im."

Worst analogy ever.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 03:02 AM   #57
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,290
Just watched the video.

Looks to be a case of three total dummies. Ghetto couple who jump right to loud argument and physical violence when faced with an annoying busy-body.

The annoying busy-body, I do not like that type... but someone who is passionate about scolding others for using handicapped spots is far from the worst thing out there. Who knows, maybe their elderly mother has been unable to find a spot multiple times because an able-bodied person had taken it, or something. Now it's their pet issue. Or maybe they just like conflict. I don't know. I wouldn't determine a person to be awful just because they have a passion about that issue or similar things. In fact, society probably depends on those instincts to function.

The guy coming out and blind-side pushing an older guy to the ground is absurd. Someone like that being removed from the planet is probably all around a good thing.

However, it seemed to me based on the video that at the moment he chose to pull the trigger, it was an absurd choice. I mean I don't really mind, because of who he killed, but I would not have pulled the trigger at the point he did, or under the conditions he did, when the guy had backed away. But I know there are a lot of weird laws that basically put you in a "once you pull it, you better fire it" situation and all manner of dumbness like that.

I think drawing the pistol made sense, and holding the guy at gunpoint probably made sense. Firing didn't seem rational at the point he did it, and I would not have done so in order to avoid legal perils if I had been in that situation. I probably wouldn't have even drawn the weapon, but who knows.

Even though he screwed up and it was dumb to shoot, I hope he gets away with it and I hope it angers people hugely.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 03:19 AM   #58
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,162
I wonder why he felt so strongly about the disabled parking spot? Disabled friend or relative, sanctimonious busy body, or just looking for a fight?

In the video it looks as though the mother gets out of the car to argue with him which seems to indicate she doesn't see him as a threat.

It seems to me that no one in this situation acted reasonably, parking in the disabled space and refusing to move, escalating a verbal confrontation to a physical one, and finally, the introduction of lethal weapons.

In my opinion this killing should not go untried, but the circumstances need to be taken into account, premeditation doesn't seem likely and I don't think malice aforethought could be established. I'm no lawyer, but given that the killer was physically attacked but responded inappropriately I think Voluntary Manslaughter would be the most appropriate charge.

I am now ready to be attacked from both sides.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 03:40 AM   #59
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 8,141
Take away the gun culture, and this is a mere shoving match and ends without tragedy. Add back that culture, and the death penalty is seen as a normal outcome, including the orphaned child. Nice "culture." Bet Ugluk is smiling in his shallow cave pit.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time swapping avatars if in August.
Summer penance for overeating: His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 03:45 AM   #60
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,276
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Unbelievable. What results in an advantage for the fowled team in a sport should be met with capital punishment in your worldview?

Are you calling footballers chicken?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 03:47 AM   #61
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,276
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Disagree. The deceased blindsided him and wrecked him. That would be 15 yards and an ejection for targeting.

If only the players were armed, we wouldn’t see this sort of conduct on the football field.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 04:17 AM   #62
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 38,565
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Just watched the video.

Looks to be a case of three total dummies. Ghetto couple who jump right to loud argument and physical violence when faced with an annoying busy-body.

The annoying busy-body, I do not like that type... but someone who is passionate about scolding others for using handicapped spots is far from the worst thing out there. Who knows, maybe their elderly mother has been unable to find a spot multiple times because an able-bodied person had taken it, or something. Now it's their pet issue. Or maybe they just like conflict. I don't know. I wouldn't determine a person to be awful just because they have a passion about that issue or similar things. In fact, society probably depends on those instincts to function.

The guy coming out and blind-side pushing an older guy to the ground is absurd. Someone like that being removed from the planet is probably all around a good thing.

However, it seemed to me based on the video that at the moment he chose to pull the trigger, it was an absurd choice. I mean I don't really mind, because of who he killed, but I would not have pulled the trigger at the point he did, or under the conditions he did, when the guy had backed away. But I know there are a lot of weird laws that basically put you in a "once you pull it, you better fire it" situation and all manner of dumbness like that.

I think drawing the pistol made sense, and holding the guy at gunpoint probably made sense. Firing didn't seem rational at the point he did it, and I would not have done so in order to avoid legal perils if I had been in that situation. I probably wouldn't have even drawn the weapon, but who knows.

Even though he screwed up and it was dumb to shoot, I hope he gets away with it and I hope it angers people hugely.
Hilited: If I may paraphrase our brilliant conservative scholar, Ziggurat.... Wow! Obama really broke you.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 04:23 AM   #63
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,484
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Are you calling footballers chicken?
Ah, yes! I knew something didn't look right there, but to be fair it looked a lot better than the idea that a "15 yards and ejection for targeting" = death by shooting.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 04:25 AM   #64
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,484
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Even though he screwed up and it was dumb to shoot, I hope he gets away with it and I hope it angers people hugely.
ST, we know full well that you are happy to see a black person shot dead. In many other instances this would be an unfair strawman, but in your case it is not.

There is no worthwhile discussion to be had here with you.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 05:28 AM   #65
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,292
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It's only on page 2 and the line of damage control is clear.

Normalize the law. Try and make it appear that the law is just like it is in every other state.

Don't fall for that ****** ****.

Don't forget how easy it is to show them for what they are:
Seriously, you are hating on a law without even understanding it.

All of the US has pretty much the same self-defense law, if you have a reasonable belief that your life is in imminent danger, you can use deadly force.

Where the differences come in is if you have a duty to try and retreat prior to doing so. Many States say that if you are in your home or vehicle, then you don't, in other places you do. Florida says if you are legally in the place, then you don't have retreat. This is the only difference, and that is what SYG is, period, you don't have to retreat from someone threatening you.

And it's irrelevant in this case anyway.

The guy was on the ground, and thus he couldn't retreat.

Even if he was in NYC which requires a duty to attempt to retreat if you can, that he was on the ground negates it because he couldn't retreat.

SYG is thus totally irrelevant to the entire thing, and it's simply a case of did he have a reasonable belief that his life was in imminent danger.

The video would suggest that the answer to this is no, that any such fear was unreasonable.

The Cops have the Law wrong. The Sheriff stated that we couldn't put our belief over the shooters, but in fact that is exactly what the Law demands. It demands that the fear is reasonable, in other words, if a reasonable person was in the position, would they consider their life to be in imminent danger.

As I said the answer is no. Thus he should be charged with Murder 2 and plead his case in court. Simple.

The Sheriff has it wrong, so stop beating on a law you clearly don't understand and place the blame for the failure to arrest where it belongs, squarely in the shoulders of a dumb-ass sheriff who doesn't understand the law he supposed to be enforcing.

And yes, the media don't understand it either, well they might, but they like to use flashy headlines and stories to sell their news so it's easy to paste SYG everywhere and watch all the half-educated explode as they respond to the click-bait.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 05:33 AM   #66
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,292
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I also have to wonder if the situation escalated because the shooter had a gun. Unarmed, would he have been so aggressive? I guessing not. Likely another case of firearm used as substitute for social skills.
I have to admit that I have considered the same, and whether he would have been so willing to confront the driver in such a way had he not been armed.

I get the feeling he was little more than a wannabe vigilante with a gun waiting for a chance to use it.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 05:39 AM   #67
Norman Alexander
Master Poster
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,762
Yet another Thursday in the USA.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 05:56 AM   #68
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 16,734
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Take away the gun culture, and this is a mere shoving match and ends without tragedy. Add back that culture, and the death penalty is seen as a normal outcome, including the orphaned child. Nice "culture." Bet Ugluk is smiling in his shallow cave pit.
I don't think it ever would have been a shoving match without the gun. The shooter didn't appear to be protecting himself physically when he got shoved. The shooter escalated because he had a gun. If the shooter had been unarmed, I doubt this would have even been a conversation about the parking space.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 06:03 AM   #69
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,153
I guess an armed society isn't necessarily a polite society after all.
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 06:14 AM   #70
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,153
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The shooter didn't appear to be protecting himself physically when he got shoved.
His attention was on the woman in the car that he was arguing with. From the shooter's point of view some random guy just attacked him.
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 06:37 AM   #71
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,207
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yup, I see why TBD refused to post a link to the video. It's quite clear, the police have it wrong, they need to charge with Murder 2 and let the court sort it out. There is no way a reasonable person would have feared for their lives in this situation.
The video has been posted repeatedly.

The victim got wrecked.

And if you thought it was reasonable to assume that the incident was over, you have never seen the videos on World Star HipHop of the violent stomping the *********** **** out of defenseless people on the ground.

Let me know if you need another link to the video,
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 06:43 AM   #72
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 40,036
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The Cops have the Law wrong.
He would know this if he had actually read my links with the intent to understand.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 06:48 AM   #73
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 40,036
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The video has been posted repeatedly.

The victim got wrecked.

And if you thought it was reasonable to assume that the incident was over, you have never seen the videos on World Star HipHop of the violent stomping the *********** **** out of defenseless people on the ground.

Let me know if you need another link to the video,
The shooter had a right to present the gun. But as soon as he did, the fight essentially stopped. The victim made no further attempt to attack. Absent the gun, he might well have, but in the presence of the gun he didn't. It could have ended there. If charges are pressed, the prosecution can make a good case that shooting the gun at that point was unjustified.

Read the links I posted upthread. It's by an actual lawyer who literally wrote the book on the legal right to self defense.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 06:53 AM   #74
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,682
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The video has been posted repeatedly.

The victim got wrecked.

And if you thought it was reasonable to assume that the incident was over, you have never seen the videos on World Star HipHop of the violent stomping the *********** **** out of defenseless people on the ground.

Let me know if you need another link to the video,
Inorite? In bars and playgrounds nation wide, a shove is widely acknowledged as a death sentence. Plus ya gots to keep them darkies in their place, ya know. Imagine, laying hands on a White Man in this day and age. Totes deserved it.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 07:05 AM   #75
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,207
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Inorite? In bars and playgrounds nation wide, a shove is widely acknowledged as a death sentence. Plus ya gots to keep them darkies in their place, ya know. Imagine, laying hands on a White Man in this day and age. Totes deserved it.
While we all appreciate a fine tactic of dismissing the initial attack as merely a “shove” akin to a playground shove, in this case the attack came from the side, lifted the victim completely off the groung and slammed his body and head against concrete. The victim was undoubtedly concussed.

Plenty of people have suffered brain damage or death due to slamming their heads on concrete. I know of two.

So yeah, the deceased totally deserved it.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 07:13 AM   #76
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,682
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
While we all appreciate a fine tactic of dismissing the initial attack as merely a “shove” akin to a playground shove, in this case the attack came from the side, lifted the victim completely off the groung and slammed his body and head against concrete. The victim was undoubtedly concussed.

Plenty of people have suffered brain damage or death due to slamming their heads on concrete. I know of two.

So yeah, the deceased totally deserved it.
Oohh! Another made-up detail from TBD! He doesn't hit his head, he rolls off his shoulder. Was there a hospital report or something that leads you to this story of concussions, or is it because that's how we all know how these WorldStarHipHops roll? Please feel free to present it.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 07:19 AM   #77
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 40,036
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So yeah, the deceased totally deserved it.
That isn't the relevant legal standard.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 07:23 AM   #78
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,207
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oohh! Another made-up detail from TBD! He doesn't hit his head, he rolls off his shoulder. Was there a hospital report or something that leads you to this story of concussions, or is it because that's how we all know how these WorldStarHipHops roll? Please feel free to present it.
Rolls off his shoulder? Quick anatomy question, if one were to land on one’s shoulder and “roll off” it, what is the next part of the body that would strike the concrete?

The head.

Most of the stompings on world star are nsfw, so do your own research.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 07:36 AM   #79
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,682
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rolls off his shoulder? Quick anatomy question, if one were to land on one’s shoulder and “roll off” it, what is the next part of the body that would strike the concrete?

The head. The other shoulder.
Then sit up, as he did. FTFY.

Quote:
Most of the stompings on world star are nsfw, so do your own research.
A rhetorical question: why are you equating this one guy with WorldStar? (wink, wink). Do you measure all assaults and batteries by the World Star Scale?

You forgot the hospital report, too. Oversight.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2018, 07:41 AM   #80
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,207
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Then sit up, as he did. FTFY.

A rhetorical question: why are you equating this one guy with WorldStar? (wink, wink). Do you measure all assaults and batteries by the World Star Scale?

You forgot the hospital report, too. Oversight.
The hospital report? Why do you ask for it, you saw it and know that he was concussed despite the fact that he did not get to his feet for a long time? I would think that isn’t available, HIPPA and all.

Rolls off the shoulder, you do have us on.

WORLD STAR!
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:18 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.